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Old 04-28-2012, 05:15 PM   #1
graham christian
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Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Thought I would post this video and hope some may find it interesting.

http://youtu.be/zDZFcDGpL4U

The reason is that on this forum I have said many times and many things about my having no use for 'academic' logic and 'educated gold braided authority'

This has caused much reaction in the past so hopefully this may open a few eyes. Especially those set on this and that 'must be' models.

Peace.G.
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Old 04-28-2012, 06:01 PM   #2
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Poor old academics.......

Seen one of his TED-talks before. Very inspiring for anyone who is interested in education. This should have influence in the way teachers approach transmitting the art and skills of Aikido.
Thank you for sharing this !
Tom
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Old 04-29-2012, 06:55 AM   #3
dps
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Maintaing the institution of public eduaction is now more important than educating our children

dps.
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Old 04-29-2012, 02:53 PM   #4
gregstec
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Maintaing the institution of public eduaction is now more important than educating our children

dps.
Unfortunately, Institutions and organizations take on a life of their own, and as they grow, divert more and more resources from their primary objectives just to maintain their level of operation and support their growth - eventfully, they cease to exist for the purpose they were originally intended for. This morphing is evident with Unions as well as any form of government - and of course, can also be found in Aikido organizations as well

Greg
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Old 04-29-2012, 06:21 PM   #5
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

That cannot be denied, but I feel Ken Robinson is more pointing towards a flaw in thought when the modern education system was developed. This education system is developed for an industrial society and the way of living that comes with it. But what if we want to change this society or what if we encounter another culture (like Aikido- are we capable to adjust or does Aikido has to fit in in our way of thinking?). What if some of our children cannot learn in this way, while there is nothing wrong with their intelligence? What if society needs more creative ideas and innovations while we have an education system that teaches our children not to be creative?
I consider that food for thought.
Tom
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:50 AM   #6
dps
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
That cannot be denied, but I feel Ken Robinson is more pointing towards a flaw in thought when the modern education system was developed........
Tom
I don't think he is saying it was a flaw in thought when the education system was created. The thought was that industry needed a work force that was educated and trained how to work in the industries of that time and the education system was developed to do just that.

The flaw is that the institution of that education system exists today and is educating and training a work force for work in an industrial society that no longer exists.


dps

Last edited by dps : 04-30-2012 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 04-30-2012, 09:27 AM   #7
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” ― Isaac Asimov

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Old 04-30-2012, 09:47 AM   #8
Keith Larman
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Graham, I think you missed a large part of his point. And you are drawing a false equivalency between your often frankly shoddy, self-serving thinking and logic with some odd idea of creativity. Creativity is not about how you fit things to your pre-existing world view.

Asimov's quote is quite well-taken in this case.

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Old 04-30-2012, 12:11 PM   #9
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

From the talk: "I define creativity as having original ideas that have value." Emphasis mine.

Institutions have many faults, but they're also easy targets for those who are looking for a cheap copout. If your ideas fail to pass the test of intellectual rigor, it's not the fault of some educational institution.
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:00 PM   #10
dps
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
From the talk: "I define creativity as having original ideas that have value." Emphasis mine.

Institutions have many faults, but they're also easy targets for those who are looking for a cheap copout. If your ideas fail to pass the test of intellectual rigor, it's not the fault of some educational institution.
I see the talk about elementary through high school more so than a college or university level and one of the points is that there is no intellectual rigor in the elementary through high school education system.
That most of the kids are educated to be " blue collar " workers for industry and thus do not need to have or are they wanted to have "intellectual rigor".

dps
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:24 PM   #11
graham christian
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Graham, I think you missed a large part of his point. And you are drawing a false equivalency between your often frankly shoddy, self-serving thinking and logic with some odd idea of creativity. Creativity is not about how you fit things to your pre-existing world view.

Asimov's quote is quite well-taken in this case.
Ahhh, Keith. Seems like this statement of yours is self serving.

The video is of itself and I agree with it 100%

My views are very creative actually, outside of the usual box thank you. Asimov? You like his statement do you? Funny thing is neither he or any of his era of sci fi writers had any degrees in anything at all. Thus they were 'uneducated' yet brilliant. Leave the uncreative stuff to the editors and write freely.

Peace. G.
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:34 PM   #12
graham christian
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

First one must understand the video. Kids start off full of life and creative and willing to learn. They go through a process of schooling, not a very old process, and come out the other end as teenagers lost on the whole.

This is not an anti something video, it's an educational one. It's an eye opening one. To me it's common sense and that's all.

Peace. G.
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:46 PM   #13
Mark Gibbons
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ahhh, Keith. Seems like this statement of yours is self serving.

The video is of itself and I agree with it 100%

My views are very creative actually, outside of the usual box thank you. Asimov? You like his statement do you? Funny thing is neither he or any of his era of sci fi writers had any degrees in anything at all. Thus they were 'uneducated' yet brilliant. Leave the uncreative stuff to the editors and write freely.

Peace. G.
Asimov had a PHD in biochemistry. Many other writers of the era also had advanced degrees. The uncreative editors were also frequently writers.
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Old 04-30-2012, 02:12 PM   #14
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Funny thing is neither he (Asimov) or any of his era of sci fi writers had any degrees in anything at all.
BS, as usual.

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Old 04-30-2012, 02:42 PM   #15
graham christian
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
BS, as usual.
Ha, ha, I stand corrected on that one point, albeit minor if you know anything at all about Asimov. He laughed at the education system and said the only real education was self education.

I remember a senior lecturer from a polytechnic turning up on my doorstep one day looking so sad. I had given his wife, also a senior lecturer at the same place a basic course in the basics of study and because she had then excelled he got interested. Unfortunately it made him realize what he didn't know and thus turned up on my doorstep needing some help. I soon got him through it.

Now somwhere along the line maybe twenty years ago I was reading science fiction and science fantasy and that's where I was suprised by how many of the 60's era sci-fi writers were creative yet not of the 'intellectual certificate' variety. Ah, if only people understood the video for real.

So many kids put down for not having the full stop in the right place or other types of grammatical errors and thus given say 2 out of 10 as a mark yet the story, full of imagination and creativity seemingly irrelevent. Thus creativity is destroyed. Thus they feel they are stupid. Thus they feel lack of worth. Just one example of the failings in such an education system. Meanwhile those who know the grammar precisely, (who would make great editors) are called good writers and more than that are told they are the intelligent ones. Oh dear.......The future looks bleak ha, ha.

Unless you are a robot of course then in that case go for it, a mechanical nirvana ha, ha. Exterminate! exterminate!!! Or is that Doctor Who?

Peace.G.
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Old 04-30-2012, 07:11 PM   #16
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I don't think he is saying it was a flaw in thought when the education system was created. The thought was that industry needed a work force that was educated and trained how to work in the industries of that time and the education system was developed to do just that.

The flaw is that the institution of that education system exists today and is educating and training a work force for work in an industrial society that no longer exists.

dps
I agree - this was not well formulated. I do not know if Robinson says that it was a flaw in thought when the system created. Point well taken.

The real issue off course is the situation today. And whether we see our current educational system as a problem or not.

Tom
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Old 04-30-2012, 07:28 PM   #17
graham christian
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Here's my simple and humble view on the matter.

Once upon a time there was apprenticeships for virtually everything. A natural way of study and learning.

Then along came schooling.

At the time it was designed to fit the real happenings and changes extant and seemed to fit well from many angles.

Unfortunately it's not based on love and therefore natural talent. That's it's number one outness. So simple and yet so true and from that viewpoint, once grasped, the future of education and bright happy intelligent able peoples would be the result. A better world, a better society, a better life for all.

True budo is love. Love isn't intellectual yet is far more intelligent, powerful and harmonious to life itself.

Peace.G.
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Old 04-30-2012, 07:38 PM   #18
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Institutions have many faults, but they're also easy targets for those who are looking for a cheap copout. If your ideas fail to pass the test of intellectual rigor, it's not the fault of some educational institution.
Not so long ago I might have come up with the same argument. But in recent times I have had talks about education with university teachers in engineering, classical languages, philosophy, medicine and they all point to the same kind of problems; their new students have a lack in knowledge and they lack creativity. Although they do have their proper grades and diploma's.Does this mean that the educational institutions that they went to before did a good job? Or did they just produce students that according to their grades are supposed to be good enough? So the school at least meets the governmental criteria.

I think there would be a strong case for your argument if in a class one or two failed to pass the test of intellectual rigor. But if the whole class fails?
Tom
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:21 PM   #19
lbb
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ahhh, Keith. Seems like this statement of yours is self serving.
That's a gratuitous cheap shot.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
The video is of itself and I agree with it 100%
You agree with what you believe it's saying.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
My views are very creative actually, outside of the usual box thank you.
Both original, and having value? To be honest, Graham, a lot of time when I read your posts, I feel like I'm being force-fed the works of Joe Hyams.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Asimov? You like his statement do you? Funny thing is neither he or any of his era of sci fi writers had any degrees in anything at all.
That wouldn't support your statement even if it were true, and it's not. Asimov had a PhD in biochemistry and was a professor. Arthur C. Clarke was a graduate of King's College; Heinlein was a graduate of the US Naval Academy; H. G. Wells, Royal College of Science; Ursula Le Guin, Radcliffe College and Columbia University. And on, and on, and on.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Thus they were 'uneducated' yet brilliant. Leave the uncreative stuff to the editors and write freely.
I think perhaps you should read what some of the great writers have written on the subject of writing. You might start with Le Guin; she's written a lot of splendid essays on the subject. It's not quite the directionless free-form fandango you seem to think it is.
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:23 PM   #20
lbb
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ha, ha, I stand corrected on that one point, albeit minor if you know anything at all about Asimov. He laughed at the education system and said the only real education was self education.
Then why did he accept a post as a professor of biochemistry at Boston University?

"Thou hast railed on thyself."
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:27 PM   #21
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Not so long ago I might have come up with the same argument.
Tom, are you familiar with the saying, "Even a broken clock is right twice a day"?

That's the kind of cheap shot I'm talking about: someone who gives an answer that by sheer dumb luck happens to be not entirely incorrect.
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Old 04-30-2012, 09:22 PM   #22
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Not so long ago I might have come up with the same argument. But in recent times I have had talks about education with university teachers in engineering, classical languages, philosophy, medicine and they all point to the same kind of problems; their new students have a lack in knowledge and they lack creativity. Although they do have their proper grades and diploma's.Does this mean that the educational institutions that they went to before did a good job? Or did they just produce students that according to their grades are supposed to be good enough? So the school at least meets the governmental criteria.

I think there would be a strong case for your argument if in a class one or two failed to pass the test of intellectual rigor. But if the whole class fails?
Tom
There may be other causes. In my country less and less students are interested in those kind of studies. I think that before the eighties or so, getting a degree in science or medicine meant that you'd be sure to have a good career and a respected position in society.

But nowadays, the road to success is business schools, studying law, finance, economics, management, marketing. You'll have better career opportunities and you'll be closer to the money. That's what counts today. That's where the best students go to.

In my opinion, you have to be a fairly idealistic to study science or medicine these days. It's definitely not as rewarding as it used to be. These studies used to get the best students, but not anymore.
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Old 05-01-2012, 08:03 AM   #23
sorokod
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I remember a senior lecturer from a polytechnic turning up on my doorstep one day looking so sad. I had given his wife, also a senior lecturer at the same place a basic course in the basics of study and because she had then excelled he got interested. Unfortunately it made him realize what he didn't know and thus turned up on my doorstep needing some help. I soon got him through it.
Was he the TED lecturer, Sir Ken Robinson, who has a PHD from University of London?

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Old 05-01-2012, 08:58 AM   #24
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
My views are very creative actually, outside of the usual box thank you. Asimov? You like his statement do you? Funny thing is neither he or any of his era of sci fi writers had any degrees in anything at all. Thus they were 'uneducated' yet brilliant. Leave the uncreative stuff to the editors and write freely.
I think that your creativity extends to facts, just had a quick look at the Hugo award winners for best novel throughout the 70s ( http://dpsinfo.com/awardweb/hugos/70s.html ).
Of the nine authors (Ursula Le Guin won twice) only two appear not to have higher education; Kate Wilhelm in 77 and Frederik Pohl at 78.

70. Ursula Le Guin
B.A. (Phi Beta Kappa) from Radcliffe College in 1951, and M.A. from Columbia University in 1952.

71. Larry Niven
Briefly attended the California Institute of Technology and graduated with a Bachelor of Arts in mathematics
(with a minor in psychology) from Washburn University, Topeka, Kansas, in 1962.
He did a year of graduate work in mathematics at the University of California at Los Angeles.

72. Philip Josť Farmer
BA in English from Bradley University in 1950.

73. Isaac Asimov
:-)

74. Arthur C. Clarke
First-class degree in mathematics and physics at King's College London

75. Ursula K. Le Guin
see 70.

76. Joe Haldeman
A BS degree in Physics and Astronomy from the University of Maryland

77. Kate Wilhelm

78. Frederik Pohl

79. Vonda N. McIntyre
Degree in biology from the University of Washington

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Old 05-01-2012, 09:56 AM   #25
Keith Larman
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Re: Poor old academics....... (RSA video: Ken Robinson)

Graham.

As a guy who makes his living full time working in an archaic but creative field I'm quite sympathetic to Dr. Robinson's position. I've shown that video to others well before you've ever mentioned it here.

However, as a guy who grew up with scientists but then went off the deep end to get degrees in a variety of areas including philosophy and religious studies I found myself often in the minority on all sorts of issues. And this summer part of my plans is to teach my daughter how to wrap Japanese sword handles in a couple different styles. Also I plan on teaching her how to use an air brush. We will build a small work area in the yard (planning, measurement, hand tools, structures) and then we will likely build a solar powered light for the work area from parts (electronics, battery storage, solar panel construction, etc.). All I consider education, including wrapping handles and painting. I want to teach my daughter to *think* first and foremost. To both foster her creative soul but also her critical mind.

As others have said, you're entitled to your own opinions, just not your own facts. Overwhelmingly your posts reflect a stubborn refusal to see beyond what appears to me to be at best wishful thinking by, again, what appears to me to be border on delusional thinking. Dr. Robinson isn't talking about "making crap up". He's talking about creativity and a variety of other things. But it doesn't give the kind of ideas you tend to post some sort of ontological equivalence. Yes, there is beauty in poetry, wonder in images, and fantastic things to be learned from flights of fantasy. But they are still fantasy. That it might be useful is one thing. Whether it is *correct* in some sort of objective way is another entirely.

You seem to confuse the two on a regular basis.

And you certainly didn't understand what he was getting at in that speech. Otherwise you wouldn't equate your writing with what he was speaking on.

From an academic. Who now works in arts. And sees no conflicts.

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