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Old 04-12-2012, 08:10 AM   #126
gregstec
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Andy Lam wrote: View Post
you might find it interesting about how this well known Wing Chun Master explains the idea or concept of Elbow Power
http://youtu.be/DiUp3gKlJEg
Some very good IS/IP concepts shown in that video

Greg
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:44 AM   #127
Abasan
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Re: Elbow Power

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Wouldn't that be the same fixation, saying that it is not about the power of the elbows, and yet still just saying that if you put your elbow here or there relative to this or that and move it this way it is powerful or not in some way? Could we rather posit knee power? Toe power? Finger power? Knuckle power? Hip bone power? What is so conspicuous about the elbow here that you wish to grant it special status?
I don't know what you're trying to say... Maybe you should ask the heir apparent to shioda, inoue Sensei.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 04-12-2012, 08:47 AM   #128
MM
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Some very good IS/IP concepts shown in that video

Greg
Hi Greg,

I didn't really see them. Can you expand on what you saw? I didnt understand him, but there wasn't anything, that I heard, in the translation that shed light on IS/IP concepts.

Mark
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:02 AM   #129
gregstec
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hi Greg,

I didn't really see them. Can you expand on what you saw? I didnt understand him, but there wasn't anything, that I heard, in the translation that shed light on IS/IP concepts.

Mark
Really? go back, look AND listen and it is very evident to me he is talking about not using physical strength as well as keeping a whole body connection in movement of the arm without shoulder involvement along with some points on circular movement and not linear movement, etc. All aspects of IS/IP, IMO.

Greg
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:06 AM   #130
MM
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Re: Elbow Power

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Really? go back, look AND listen and it is very evident to me he is talking about not using physical strength as well as keeping a whole body connection in movement of the arm without shoulder involvement along with some points on circular movement and not linear movement, etc. All aspects of IS/IP, IMO.

Greg
I hear that in judo, BJJ. Are you saying they are good examples of IS/IP?
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:23 AM   #131
gregstec
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Re: Elbow Power

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I hear that in judo, BJJ. Are you saying they are good examples of IS/IP?
They are core components of all IS/IP. However, not all IS/IP is created equal - and there are other things that can enhance the level of IS/IP such as the spirals in aiki - but we are not talking about aiki here, just one form of IS/IP - aiki creates IS/IP, but not all IS/IP has aiki

Greg
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:50 AM   #132
MM
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
They are core components of all IS/IP. However, not all IS/IP is created equal - and there are other things that can enhance the level of IS/IP such as the spirals in aiki - but we are not talking about aiki here, just one form of IS/IP - aiki creates IS/IP, but not all IS/IP has aiki

Greg
I disagree. And I don't think that what that video is showing is the same as aikido elbow power. But that's my opinion.
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Old 04-12-2012, 10:59 AM   #133
gregstec
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Re: Elbow Power

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I disagree. And I don't think that what that video is showing is the same as aikido elbow power. But that's my opinion.
I never said it was representative of elbow power - just said it had some good concept points for IS/IP - simple as that; nothing more and nothing less.
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:34 AM   #134
MM
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Re: Elbow Power

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I never said it was representative of elbow power - just said it had some good concept points for IS/IP - simple as that; nothing more and nothing less.
I disagree that what is shown is "good concepts" for the IS/IP we usually talk about. I also disagree that what is shown on the video is "core components" of the IS/IP we usually talk about.

I did put "and" after I disagreed. . Didn't mean to imply you said it.
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:16 PM   #135
gregstec
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Re: Elbow Power

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I disagree that what is shown is "good concepts" for the IS/IP we usually talk about. I also disagree that what is shown on the video is "core components" of the IS/IP we usually talk about.

.
I know that "we" talk about a lot more things with our aiki development under Dan - but some of those basic things talked about in that video are part of what we do - I just thought it was nice to see some points coming out from a different source; Chinese of course. I have been looking into Sam Chin's stuff, Yiquan, and some Chen Taiqiquan looking for commonalities with Dan's methods and it is always good when I come across some no matter how basic, so I just point them out

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I did put "and" after I disagreed. . Didn't mean to imply you said it
Well, as an aspiring author, I would think you would be more aware of how your writings would be interpreted by us lay people - besides, don't you have a book to write, AND to do work on your new job

Best

Greg
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:58 PM   #136
MM
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
but some of those basic things talked about in that video are part of what we do

Best

Greg
Might be just me, but I don't think I do what they're talking about in that video. That's not how I look at my training. Anyway, too far off topic.

Elbow power in aikido, to me, is something different than what's in that video.
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:35 AM   #137
Lee Salzman
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Might be just me, but I don't think I do what they're talking about in that video. That's not how I look at my training. Anyway, too far off topic.

Elbow power in aikido, to me, is something different than what's in that video.
Now the great unlikely-to-ever-be-fulfilled mission of this thread is: can you tell us, to some degree, why it is different or what it is that makes elbow power in aikido different from that? I realize some people wish to keep cards close to their chest, but throw us a few bones, or bone shavings even.
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Old 04-13-2012, 04:23 AM   #138
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Now the great unlikely-to-ever-be-fulfilled mission of this thread is: can you tell us, to some degree, why it is different or what it is that makes elbow power in aikido different from that? I realize some people wish to keep cards close to their chest, but throw us a few bones, or bone shavings even.
Made me smile. Come on Mark. We will ask the Big One if you dont tell us.
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Old 04-13-2012, 07:15 AM   #139
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Now the great unlikely-to-ever-be-fulfilled mission of this thread is: can you tell us, to some degree, why it is different or what it is that makes elbow power in aikido different from that? I realize some people wish to keep cards close to their chest, but throw us a few bones, or bone shavings even.
maybe the aikido elbow has more humor in its bone. it might be more standup than others.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 04-13-2012, 07:23 AM   #140
Lee Salzman
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Re: Elbow Power

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
maybe the aikido elbow has more humor in its bone. it might be more standup than others.
If by humor(s) we are talking stuff like black bile, phlegm, etc., sure. Not so sure about the other type of humor these days.
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Old 04-13-2012, 10:19 AM   #141
Rob Watson
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
maybe the aikido elbow has more humor in its bone. it might be more standup than others.
Elbow .... humor .... humerus ... hmmmm.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 04-13-2012, 03:21 PM   #142
Mario Tobias
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Re: Elbow Power

Elbow power? I think it's just basic physics.

If in katatedori or any wrist grabs like morotedori, the wrist is your axis and the forearm the lever. Wrist grabs will be considered a class 1 type lever if you want to displace uke with minimal power and maximum carrying effect. It just so happens that the optimal lever fulcrum is from the elbow to the wrist. Nothing mystical about it. And as Endo sensei said, do not try to move what cannot be moved.

Cheers,
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:35 PM   #143
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Now the great unlikely-to-ever-be-fulfilled mission of this thread is: can you tell us, to some degree, why it is different or what it is that makes elbow power in aikido different from that? I realize some people wish to keep cards close to their chest, but throw us a few bones, or bone shavings even.
I think the videos I cited (as opposed to the one cited by Andy, which seems to be the 'bone of contention (har!)) might have been a little clearer. IMHO.

On the other hand, I'm interested to know what Mark, Greg and Dan mean by 'elbow power'. It seems it means something else to them?

Last edited by bob_stra : 04-13-2012 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:21 AM   #144
gregstec
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
I think the videos I cited (as opposed to the one cited by Andy, which seems to be the 'bone of contention (har!)) might have been a little clearer. IMHO.

On the other hand, I'm interested to know what Mark, Greg and Dan mean by 'elbow power'. It seems it means something else to them?
More info on Elbow Power can be found in this previous thread: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20105

I am not sure what else can be said other than Elbow Power can mean various things to various people based on the context of how the term is used; and that does not mean others are wrong in their own environment, it just means it is not right for in the context of Aiki. Just to sum up some points for aiki: the concept of elbow power is more than a simple movement of the elbow to get in a better leverage position to effect a throw. There is a mental component that controls internal energy that leads a physically movement; there is whole body connection where when one thing moves, all things move; and there is a union of opposing forces set up by internal spirals where the elbow becomes a point within a whole body spiral that effects anything that connects with the body. As Dan said, it is not just about the elbow, the aiki concept of elbow power can occur in any part of a connected body. Sorry, this may not be the well detailed road map everyone was looking for, but there is just so much going with the concept, that online discussion is pretty much useless, and an in person hands on demo says it all in a few seconds.

Just my opinion, and of course, YMMV

Greg
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:23 PM   #145
tombuchanan
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Now the great unlikely-to-ever-be-fulfilled mission of this thread is: can you tell us, to some degree, why it is different or what it is that makes elbow power in aikido different from that? I realize some people wish to keep cards close to their chest, but throw us a few bones, or bone shavings even.
Exactly, sometimes I can't tell if this is a,

1.) Forum where people exchange ideas (e.g., I was trying this -- we learned something else, someone makes a suggestion, that helps, thanks..)

or,

2.) A bad game of hangman (I was trying this -- you were?, why?, seriously!?**!, , zOMG not even close, your teacher has been lying to you, and they lie to everyone else except your worst enemy and your ex-wife, all ur base r belong to us..you have no chance to survive make your time.. HA HA HA HA)

Last edited by tombuchanan : 04-14-2012 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:53 AM   #146
Lee Salzman
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
More info on Elbow Power can be found in this previous thread: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20105

I am not sure what else can be said other than Elbow Power can mean various things to various people based on the context of how the term is used; and that does not mean others are wrong in their own environment, it just means it is not right for in the context of Aiki. Just to sum up some points for aiki: the concept of elbow power is more than a simple movement of the elbow to get in a better leverage position to effect a throw. There is a mental component that controls internal energy that leads a physically movement; there is whole body connection where when one thing moves, all things move; and there is a union of opposing forces set up by internal spirals where the elbow becomes a point within a whole body spiral that effects anything that connects with the body. As Dan said, it is not just about the elbow, the aiki concept of elbow power can occur in any part of a connected body. Sorry, this may not be the well detailed road map everyone was looking for, but there is just so much going with the concept, that online discussion is pretty much useless, and an in person hands on demo says it all in a few seconds.

Just my opinion, and of course, YMMV

Greg
I am not sure saying the term could mean various things to various people does us any more good than allowing people to present pineapples as apples, because they both have the word apple in them. We're talking about apples here, well, elbow power ones. And we mean a specific variety, the aiki one. Trying to be too charitable isn't going to help the discussion when we want to ferret out a specific idea.

All the same, thanks for providing your definition of elbow power, though, because if someone had just come out and said this clearly in the beginning of the thread a lot of confusion could have been eliminated. No one expects a roadmap either, but at the same time I get frustrated by how we always seem to treat these topics as somehow impossible to discuss at all, when you just clearly discussed it here in reasonable terms. Somehow I think this is more of a social trend than a real limitation of the subject matter.
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:06 AM   #147
Chris Li
 
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
I am not sure saying the term could mean various things to various people does us any more good than allowing people to present pineapples as apples, because they both have the word apple in them. We're talking about apples here, well, elbow power ones. And we mean a specific variety, the aiki one. Trying to be too charitable isn't going to help the discussion when we want to ferret out a specific idea.

All the same, thanks for providing your definition of elbow power, though, because if someone had just come out and said this clearly in the beginning of the thread a lot of confusion could have been eliminated. No one expects a roadmap either, but at the same time I get frustrated by how we always seem to treat these topics as somehow impossible to discuss at all, when you just clearly discussed it here in reasonable terms. Somehow I think this is more of a social trend than a real limitation of the subject matter.
You have to realize that most of the people discussing here (myself included) are real beginners in this stuff, and are cautious about how to express it in a way that is not completely misleading. Even for those who have a shared frame of reference, discussing these things can be quite difficult - it's almost impossible outside of that frame of reference.

For that reason, I generally try to stay out of any "how to do" stuff, unless I know that I'm talking to someone who has a similar frame of reference to discuss those things.

Also for that reason, the blog discussions all stay away from any really practical discussions, and I've tried to focus on just pointing out some of the deeper linkages and possibilities with the hope that some people will find it all interesting enough to pursue it further in their own training.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-15-2012, 08:47 AM   #148
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Re: Elbow Power

What Chris said

Greg
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:01 AM   #149
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Re: Elbow Power

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
More info on Elbow Power can be found in this previous thread: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20105
Hi Greg

If you take a look, you can see I cited that thread myself in my initial post. I also provided a video as a further example.

My interest was to get an explanation of "dual opposing spirals". I'm not an expert, so this idea of dual spirals seems a bit confusing to me. What are they and how does one create them? If you guys are claiming they're important to elbow power - and that aikido elbow power is different to what's been cited so far - Id like to know more about it.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:13 AM   #150
Lee Salzman
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Re: Elbow Power

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Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
Hi Greg

If you take a look, you can see I cited that thread myself in my initial post. I also provided a video as a further example.

My interest was to get an explanation of "dual opposing spirals". I'm not an expert, so this idea of dual spirals seems a bit confusing to me. What are they and how does one create them? If you guys are claiming they're important to elbow power - and that aikido elbow power is different to what's been cited so far - Id like to know more about it.
This was an image Tom Campbell linked to in a thread in the NTMA sections that didn't really show what the spirals were, but it at least showed where they are, maybe it helps somewhat:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attach...8&d=1201930190
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