Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Teaching

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-08-2012, 01:34 PM   #226
jackie adams
Location: CA
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 73
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Mr. Mueller, thank you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2012, 05:53 PM   #227
Garth
Location: NYC
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 92
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
You would tend to think and hope so - but IMO, you make your own destiny and sitting around waiting for it is not the way to go - if you want someone to find you, you just got to put yourself in the place they are looking

Greg
Yes, that is why I said it is a whole different matter.
Living in turn of the century Japan would have helped our search for aiki.
But i dont have a time machine.
Besides basketball is a easily defined and taught game
The people who make it a way of life, separate themselves from the people at the mall pretty quickly.
Eat , sleep , sh*t, B ball and you get good.
We can train "Aiki"like crazy, but we have to be rechecked by the few new coaches we have found to make sure we are doing it right.
The work ethic is more than half the battle(maybe , maybe not) but it is the starting point to most good learning.
"make your own destiny/ or luck" , I am a big fan of this , so far though, I am 50/50 at it.
Stuff happens even with the good work ethic. Good and Bad
Abraham Lincoln's quote applies here,
"There are no extraordinary men, only men who place themselves into extraordinary circumstances"
too which I would add(if I may be so bold), "Over and over again"


Greg

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2012, 08:21 PM   #228
jackie adams
Location: CA
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 73
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Hello Jackie,

You must have a Customer Relations/Service background - you are way too polite for this type of environment; loosen up a bit and start using people's first names

As far as Takeda's aiki is concerned, I think more of it is becoming clear due the efforts of some folks revisiting old translations and looking at them from a renewed perspective based on other knowledge of aiki and IS/IP that has been coming to light from those actively pursuing the internal skills.

Greg
Mr. Steckel, thank you. As a result of Aikido, I came to appreciate etiquette, using it in my daily life. I wish them the best of luck in those translations and endeavors.

Have a good evening.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2012, 04:15 PM   #229
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Too much interesting stuff to respond to and not enough time. I don't know why I was brought into the discussion but.....

Overall I agree with the idea that it isn't always the teacher. I do not agree with the stress placed on failure being so much the fault of the student though. It is a good point, but there needs to be a balance in the discussion. Of course the students need to do the work. In stressing (maybe intentionally OVER stressing to balance the discussion?) the students lack- it diminishes the need or value of good information. We are talking about a series of some pretty significant people coming out of Takeda's line. And going back and looking at his eimoroku-they were the ones attending more. Were -they-the small minority being actually taught the truth as DR's dogma espouses?
In other words what if it was only partly to do with them, the other part being..they were given useful information by a teacher-Takeda.

Bit of an interlude here.
I have never agreed with the idea that big guns got it from steal this technique. Why? Simple I saw, witnessed and trained in real information across two cultures? I didn't steal a thing. I was told. And I watched a Japanese teacher tell me about solo training drills, and a totally different way to look at the body, breath power and how to do it...etc. and not others....over and over. So at least ...I...knew that there was real information to be had that was being kept back. Now consider, what happened to everyone else in that room? They went on to be seniors, And I don't know of one of them who would compare with the few given the better information. Yet every one of them would tell you "You had to steal the technique and there was no explicate teaching like that."
Where does that leave us in reviewing and vetting my statement as true or bullshit? I say there was and is real information to be given. What do we know to vet that statement-testimony of others

What did Tokimune tell Stanley?
"We were told to teach only one or two people the real art." I watched it happen in front of my face.

Sagawa
What did we find out about Sagawa, years later?
What did Sagawa say as well? "We were told to teach only one or two people the real art."
He admitted in his 90's that he got his aiki from solo training. What did he say about that?
That in 60 years......he never taught it!
He revealed that Takeda told him not to talk about it (meaning Takeda did it and showed him the model)
He admitted that he never taught anyone till near the end of his career.
He also said never teach white people
As an aside have you ever met a grandmaster level Internal artist who was NOT Asian????
Any of this sound familiar enough to vet my statement?

Tokimune
Shihan of the Takumakai goes to Tokimune to get aiki
What does Tokimune teach him? Solo training drills and paired forms
Later he tells that same shihan that his people don't do them, interestingly enough the Shihan can't get the Takumaki people to do them either.
Tokimune stated he never taught any of his students.....who supported him for decades...he only taught Kondo.
Any of that sound familiar enough to vet my statement?

Okomoto
Okomoto has drills that only a very few people have seen. I was floored at what they were composed of. One of which is a modification of my and Arkuzawa's push out drill. Surprise.

Shirata
Stunning collection of power building exercises and winding-more akin to Chinese work. Where did he get it? Ueshiba.
More real information that was not stolen...it was taught. Yet...with Shirata, it was NOT given to his supposed big shot deshi, but oddly revealed to other lessor lights. When Shirata tried to give it to the post war deshi...what do we know. It was banned by Doshu!
More real informations, kept hidden.
What do you think is happening with that training now? It is being trained again and here we have modern students improving at a much faster rate than their other studies because of Shirata's legacy. I will be the first to say those students didn't really understand the depth of it, but that didn't change what Shirata's work was and what it was intended to do, did it? It was -real information.

I am making a stand that there was and is real information that could have been given out and it was not. It was and is being held back on purpose and given to just a few. The hold back is happening in a big way in China-right now.

Last point
3. I do NOT agree with Ellis's comment that even if there were better teaching it wouldn't help much and the results would more or less be the same. I not only do not agree I have and will continue to put up or shut up several people who have trained under me. Their power and skill is demonstrable and has been shown to hundreds of teachers all over the states in various levels depending on their time in
Here is the key point.
*Having been given real information, they and others are progressing, and I have yet to meet any Shihan who can duplicate the teaching model or the results.

Which, now reveals that the statement I made here in 2006 "Give me five people and I will train them for five years. I will then put them up against people who have trained with top Japanese Shihan for twenty years....." Has proven true.
What made the difference? The quality of real information that made the giants in budo...giants in the first place.

Most people in budo will never get the heart of Budo, and it is not all their fault. It was in large part, teachers not teaching. There was real information withheld and/ or with a poor teaching model and/ or a language barrier, that greatly hampered any real progress in aiki. The quality of that particular information I am discussing has a pedagogy then and now of changing people and in a far more consistent way than anything I have ever seen coming out of the popular model in Traditional Martial Arts.

I will be more than happy to review this issue again in another five years. From Hobbyist to professional there are very serious people training this and showing that it is in fact the quality of information offered them that made a difference in their expression of their art.

Last edited by DH : 04-09-2012 at 04:21 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2012, 04:38 PM   #230
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Edit last paragraph:

I will be more than happy to review this issue again in another five years.
There are very serious people (who were very serious before they started down this road) training the material I claim Ueshiba and Takeda and Sagawa were talking about -that are going to demonstrate that it is in fact the quality of information offered them that made a difference in their expression of their art, not their efforts alone.
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2012, 12:11 PM   #231
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,114
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
[The idea that] if there were better teaching it wouldn't help much and the results would more or less be the same.
Good points. Based on what I've been told in my schooling, all other things being equal, there is no substitute for good teaching. Emulation is a much quicker road than innovation. Like you say, time will tell. "Greatness" seems like it might require something different, but whatever the case, it seems clear the explicit teaching of these practices gets the foot in the door quicker.

A quick question regarding ukemi:
Does being moved around by people exhibiting aiki have a similar effect as the spiraling of the solo exercises? If we can develop the body by moving in certain ways, can we be developed by others moving our body in those same ways?
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2012, 12:51 PM   #232
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Good points. Based on what I've been told in my schooling, all other things being equal, there is no substitute for good teaching. Emulation is a much quicker road than innovation. Like you say, time will tell. "Greatness" seems like it might require something different, but whatever the case, it seems clear the explicit teaching of these practices gets the foot in the door quicker.

A quick question regarding ukemi:
Does being moved around by people exhibiting aiki have a similar effect as the spiraling of the solo exercises? If we can develop the body by moving in certain ways, can we be developed by others moving our body in those same ways?
Take care,
Matt
I don't follow the ukemi model, or trying to make a four legged animal -with-uke or any of that. It makes me slow. Instead I move me and they are late in responding and trying to cathc up.
The results from training that way are different in various people's responses; an Aiki person jumping around (DR, Aikido) a judo guy changing position, to an MMA guy doing God knows what in response. In light of that...why oh why, would I give a rip about "the response."
Ueshiba was spot on that it was never....ever...about uke. "The mystery of aiki is revealed? In spiral energy." It is in you, changing you, to create In /yo. In light of that- the answer to the second past of your question is, yes! Spiral energy nuetralizes everything. The fun part is what comes after!!

Love me/ hate me whatever.....I am consistent. From before the internet on Aikido list till now. And I still think the vast majority in these arts have almost completely missed it. Full speed in the wrong direction....away from Ueshiba's model. I agree with Ellis that we cannot truly recreate Takeda and Ueshiba. That being said... good grief we have a lot of evidence as to what they were pointing too. And on a scale of 1-10, I see our way as a hell of a lost closer to 10 then the present practices in the aiki arts.
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2012, 04:46 PM   #233
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,114
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I don't follow the ukemi model, or trying to make a four legged animal -with-uke or any of that. It makes me slow. Instead I move me and they are late in responding and trying to cathc up.
The results from training that way are different in various people's responses; an Aiki person jumping around (DR, Aikido) a judo guy changing position, to an MMA guy doing God knows what in response. In light of that...why oh why, would I give a rip about "the response."
Ueshiba was spot on that it was never....ever...about uke. "The mystery of aiki is revealed? In spiral energy." It is in you, changing you, to create In /yo. In light of that- the answer to the second past of your question is, yes! Spiral energy nuetralizes everything. The fun part is what comes after!!

Love me/ hate me whatever.....I am consistent. From before the internet on Aikido list till now. And I still think the vast majority in these arts have almost completely missed it. Full speed in the wrong direction....away from Ueshiba's model. I agree with Ellis that we cannot truly recreate Takeda and Ueshiba. That being said... good grief we have a lot of evidence as to what they were pointing too. And on a scale of 1-10, I see our way as a hell of a lost closer to 10 then the present practices in the aiki arts.
Dan
It is fun! My experiences are very limited so it's hard for me to know the lay of the land, but I'm grateful for all the discussions I've been able to read here. At the very least they serve as good food for thought...they've definately added to my enthusiasm for my own training.
It's interesting to consider that training with Ueshiba (i.e. people with aiki) could "accidentally" develop the same or similar qualities. I wonder to what extent this might have played a role in things.
p.s. And for the record, Dan, I love ya.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 07:06 AM   #234
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
It is fun! My experiences are very limited so it's hard for me to know the lay of the land, but I'm grateful for all the discussions I've been able to read here. At the very least they serve as good food for thought...they've definately added to my enthusiasm for my own training.
It's interesting to consider that training with Ueshiba (i.e. people with aiki) could "accidentally" develop the same or similar qualities. I wonder to what extent this might have played a role in things.
p.s. And for the record, Dan, I love ya.
Hi Bud
It is easier today to "discover" the lay of the land than at any time in the past. There are any number of good people teaching publicly, and many times you don't have to join a system in order to learn.

I don't agree with the idea of accidentally developing the IP/or aiki stuff as it defies all logic. That particular body technology is old and it shares too many common characteristics in different arts. How do you explain people going from Sam Chin, and then Toby Threadgill, or what I teach and then going to Bagua and Taiji teachers, or training with Ark or with people who trained with Shirata, and then we hear people stating there is so much in common? How did they all arrive with specific power building technology? How does that work? (Those comparisons are actually happening in real life). There you have China to Japan, and Koryu opposed to gendai, sharing common themes. You have to see past the trappings of the martial art aspect -as the outward expression is so different- to see different cultural roots, different lines within those cultures, coming up with similar ....to exact technology....and...it is teachable.

Now add in the aiki gang from Takeda's line, having modern students who can talk shop with Taiji Masterclass teachers.The fact that this training exists today, is in itself, a compelling argument that this stuff we talk about was preserved, taught and is being taught today. I keep repeating that this is a very good time to be in Budo. Pick a culture, but you have very good chances of going to teachers such as named above, and not only learning how to build a martial body, but also learning entire systems, Koryu, gendai, Chinese, Japanese or otherwise. Those options were not so easily available in the past. Ellis's comments then come to the fore...
There they are staring us in the face, and being shown to us...what are we going to do with it?
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 09:24 AM   #235
jackie adams
Location: CA
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 73
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
It is fun! My experiences are very limited so it's hard for me to know the lay of the land, but I'm grateful for all the discussions I've been able to read here. At the very least they serve as good food for thought...they've definately added to my enthusiasm for my own training.
It's interesting to consider that training with Ueshiba (i.e. people with aiki) could "accidentally" develop the same or similar qualities. I wonder to what extent this might have played a role in things.
p.s. And for the record, Dan, I love ya.
Good day everyone, hope everyone is doing well. Spring-time is here and I hope everyone's spirits are up.

Is there a like button? Or at least an emoticon with a thumbs up.

Matt, I know you are addressing your comment to someone else. If I may, I would like to say right on! Chef, your serving up a hearty nutritious food for thought meal. Knowing your comments not directed to me, I would like to share my thoughts you inspired.

Personally, I am not of the teacher-dependent mind-set school. Disagreements may arise from others when I say, I think Aikido today generally is too teacher dependent. Students need to explore, indulge in independent study, discovering things on their own. Micro-management teaching, where every little detail is explained doesn't allow the student to think for themselves. Exploration is a great thing to experience because when you discovery something on your own it is exhilarating, thrilling. You remember it longer, and have greater enthusiasm and motivation.

A teacher's role during a student's exploration is to be a guide. A teacher in this process is best to stimulate the learning process as a guide keeping the student in the right direction. Socratic teaching proven success works beautifully. It has become an old teaching, time tested method and standard. "Socratic teaching it still the most powerful, teaching tactic." It is something people have learned to be accustom to when learning. I could be wrong but I sense a variation is used by Asian martial arts teachers. Spoon-feeding teaching is fine to a point, it is not the only way, and it is proven not to build independent thinking minds, but dependent minds. Great teachers like Socrates didn't have dependent students. Great information on Socratic teaching.http://lonestar.texas.net/~mseifert/crit3.html

Allowing students to explore, they challenge themselves working though a problem to its solution. The rewards are their own. I am cheerleading Matt's comments. Though I don't think when talking about learning that there are no such things as accidents, the result is still enthusiasm. A great value to training and being in the art of Aikido because it also leads to continued motivation.

A common detrimental situation, students and teachers both fall into the trap that the teacher knows everything and does have all the answers.

Thank Matt, and all the readers for allowing me to express my thoughts. Have a wonderful day and wish everyone good health.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 10:03 AM   #236
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Jackie Adams,

Ueshiba created Shioda and Tomiki in about 5 years. How has you training/learning/teaching paradigm/environment held up compared to that? In 5 years, are you standing out among budo people like Shioda did? Maybe you should explicitly compare your training to Ueshiba, Shioda, Tomiki, etc. How you trained, where, how long, with whom, etc in comparison to the above named aikido greats.

Otherwise, it's just keyboard talk about some great product that does it all ... Without any provable results. Takeda had provable results. Ueshiba had them before the war. You?

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 10:58 AM   #237
jackie adams
Location: CA
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 73
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Jackie Adams,

Ueshiba created Shioda and Tomiki in about 5 years. How has you training/learning/teaching paradigm/environment held up compared to that? In 5 years, are you standing out among budo people like Shioda did? Maybe you should explicitly compare your training to Ueshiba, Shioda, Tomiki, etc. How you trained, where, how long, with whom, etc in comparison to the above named aikido greats.

Otherwise, it's just keyboard talk about some great product that does it all ... Without any provable results. Takeda had provable results. Ueshiba had them before the war. You?

Mark
Hello Mr. Murray, thank you for responding.

I maybe confusing an issue here. I could be misunderstanding Matt. I apologize for any confusion. I support the idea of independent learning, teacher guided learning along with "mirco-management teaching" information- there is no negative conations indented. Looking at the Founder, his teaching style includes those things.

I agree with you, the Founder was a good teacher, his teaching ability was good. Your comments detail the view the Founder was a good teacher. Your comments work great in past comments I have made. This leads me to the confusion of your tone.

I enjoyed but read late Mr. Harden's comments between Matt and my comments. I am not sold on the idea people can't learn aiki on their own, what ever it is. In an older comment, I quoted a student earlier whose teacher said in a nut shell, the teacher didn't teach him anything, the student learned it all himself. I have high regard for this student and his skill. You can't take away a person's talent, and abilities. There are simply talented people who don't need much instruction. Other people do. I understand what Mr. Harden is getting at. I think it is a balance, between amount of instruction, too much not a good thing, or not enough. Teaching ability is related, know the right about of instruction and the right environment for optimal learning.

Everyone it has been great, I enjoy all the comments.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 11:59 AM   #238
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Jackie Adams,
I have reiterated Stan Pranin's work, I have not posted an opinion of my own. You have and I asked for you to compare your history with that of Ueshiba's. Ueshiba is a known person as are his top students. You are stating training and teaching paradigms which, at times, contradicts history. Posting your history will give a baseline.

As for the idea of learning aiki on it's own ... Compare Ueshiba pre war as an active Daito ryu teacher versus retired Ueshiba post war where 90% of the students were training under Kisshomaru and/or Tohei. Who are the giants of aikido? Why is it that 40+ years later of learning on our own (no Ueshiba), we have no aikido greats?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 12:17 PM   #239
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,817
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Quote:
Jackie Adams wrote: View Post
I am not sold on the idea people can't learn aiki on their own, what ever it is. .
folks can learn aiki on their own. who taught the first masters? however, it's very difficult. your profile said you located in CA. Dan and others give regular seminars in CA (nobody comes near my way) so maybe you should try to attend one or two and see if your opinions still hold. you have heard of the phrase that mentioned quite a bit on the subject of aiki, IS/IP - It Has To Be Felt (IHTBF).

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 01:04 PM   #240
Gary David
 
Gary David's Avatar
Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 330
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Quote:
Jackie Adams wrote: View Post

Everyone it has been great, I enjoy all the comments.
Jackie
Curious about your background and your training tree as it were. Who was your first teacher and who have you touched since? Who has had the greatest impact on you journey? It would help the discussion and level set a continuing point.. Where in California are you located? Maybe a meetup could be arranged with some of he folks out here doing this stuff?
thanks
Gary
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 02:14 PM   #241
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,114
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Please forgive the short, mixed reply. I'm nursing part two of body-aches and chills.
Quote:
Dan wrote:
I don't agree with the idea of accidentally developing the IP/or aiki stuff as it defies all logic.
What I meant to ask was, if Ueshiba could put those spirals into another person's body, would it develop their structure? I'm guessing it wouldn't likely develop aiki unless they were actively engaging it within themselves. If it did develope their structure, I could see how that might've informed aspects of later teaching methods.

Quote:
Jackie wrote:
I could be misunderstanding Matt.
You're describing my thoughts on teaching in general pretty succinctly. In terms of creating motivation for learning and guiding toward personal autonomy or some kind of personal actualization in the student, yes I think O Sensei was a good teacher. People clearly gained a lot from him, regardless of the issue of aiki/inyoho. In terms of teaching specific ciriculum (e.g. inyoho) it sounds like many people don't think he did a very good job in teaching it to a lot of people. Being the level of experience and skill I am, I can only guess.
Take care folks!
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 04:33 PM   #242
jackie adams
Location: CA
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 73
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Please forgive the short, mixed reply. I'm nursing part two of body-aches and chills.

What I meant to ask was, if Ueshiba could put those spirals into another person's body, would it develop their structure? I'm guessing it wouldn't likely develop aiki unless they were actively engaging it within themselves. If it did develope their structure, I could see how that might've informed aspects of later teaching methods.

You're describing my thoughts on teaching in general pretty succinctly. In terms of creating motivation for learning and guiding toward personal autonomy or some kind of personal actualization in the student, yes I think O Sensei was a good teacher. People clearly gained a lot from him, regardless of the issue of aiki/inyoho. In terms of teaching specific ciriculum (e.g. inyoho) it sounds like many people don't think he did a very good job in teaching it to a lot of people. Being the level of experience and skill I am, I can only guess.
Take care folks!
Matt
Hello again everyone, I hope the day is treating everyone well.

Matt, wheeeww....thanks I was really concerned I misunderstood what your were saying. I agree with you 100%. The Founder was a good teacher and without him...well we all in Aikido would be doing something else. I too am not either at a level of skill to eliminate guessing. I am flattered when people think I am definitive. Uncomfortable when that happens I proper to correct politely telling them am not. Thanks Matt, have a great day, take good care of yourself.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 04:40 PM   #243
jackie adams
Location: CA
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 73
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
folks can learn aiki on their own. who taught the first masters? however, it's very difficult. your profile said you located in CA. Dan and others give regular seminars in CA (nobody comes near my way) so maybe you should try to attend one or two and see if your opinions still hold. you have heard of the phrase that mentioned quite a bit on the subject of aiki, IS/IP - It Has To Be Felt (IHTBF).
Mr. Truong, thank you for the invite. I would look forward to that. You'll have to excuse my ignorance, I am not familiar with IS/IP, or your seminars. Maybe we should work the details out privately, not to bore people with such details.

Mr. Truong, thank you again.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 09:17 PM   #244
Byron Foster
Dojo: Aikikai
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 20
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

From Dan Harden
Quote:
Sagawa
What did we find out about Sagawa, years later?
What did Sagawa say as well? "We were told to teach only one or two people the real art."
He admitted in his 90's that he got his aiki from solo training. What did he say about that?
That in 60 years......he never taught it!
He revealed that Takeda told him not to talk about it (meaning Takeda did it and showed him the model)
He admitted that he never taught anyone till near the end of his career.
He also said never teach white people
As an aside have you ever met a grandmaster level Internal artist who was NOT Asian????
Any of this sound familiar enough to vet my statement?
I bought a book from a well know Wushu instructor living in Vancouver Canada. I had a few classes with him years ago.

Qigong Empowerment. A guide to Medical, Taoist Buddhist Wushu energy cultivation.

In the preface, the author Shou-yu Liang makes the following interesting statement:

"There are other methods that we have not had my teachers' permission to present in this volume. We have, therefore, refrained from presenting them at this time. When my teachers grant me the permission, we will present them to interested individuals".

So one interpretation of this is that the old men back in China were okay putting some harmless stretching and breathing techniques for health into a book to share with everyone, but they were no okay with a book that may be called "Techniques to develop powerful martial artists".

The last sentence "When my teachers grant me the permission, we will present them to interested individuals" is really interesting. He is not saying that when they get permission to teach "the goods", it will not go into a book for everyone to read, but will be doled out to a few "interested individuals".

This really seems to support the above statements by Dan Harden regarding the willingness of traditional teachers to share the true foundations of their arts.

http://www.amazon.com/Qigong-Empower.../dp/1889659029

Personal review. Actually the book is quite good for what it is. I am confident that people smarter than me will be able to figure some things out from this book.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 08:05 AM   #245
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,817
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Quote:
Jackie Adams wrote: View Post
Mr. Truong, thank you for the invite. I would look forward to that. You'll have to excuse my ignorance, I am not familiar with IS/IP, or your seminars. Maybe we should work the details out privately, not to bore people with such details.

Mr. Truong, thank you again.
Jackie, i think you misunderstood my statement. i mentioned other folks give seminars. i don't. other folks have thing to teach. i have things to learn. if you check the Event section of the Non-aikido traditional section of the forums, you will see various names on there. Many of those folks are light years ahead of me and many others. although, they don't work regularly with aikido, but what they teach can benefit any type of martial arts. good luck on your journey.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 08:09 AM   #246
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Quote:
Jackie Adams wrote: View Post
Hello again everyone, I hope the day is treating everyone well.

Matt, wheeeww....thanks I was really concerned I misunderstood what your were saying. I agree with you 100%. The Founder was a good teacher and without him...well we all in Aikido would be doing something else. I too am not either at a level of skill to eliminate guessing. I am flattered when people think I am definitive. Uncomfortable when that happens I proper to correct politely telling them am not. Thanks Matt, have a great day, take good care of yourself.
Well, even with him, most in Aikido are doing something else then his Aikido - just saying

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 08:17 AM   #247
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Quote:
Byron Foster wrote: View Post
From Dan Harden

I bought a book from a well know Wushu instructor living in Vancouver Canada. I had a few classes with him years ago.

Qigong Empowerment. A guide to Medical, Taoist Buddhist Wushu energy cultivation.......

Personal review. Actually the book is quite good for what it is. I am confident that people smarter than me will be able to figure some things out from this book.
I have a copy of the book as well and find it very usefull and clear. There is a section in there on Martial Qigong, but I like the section on Taoist Qigong the best. I find the methods in that part very simple and unclutered and easy to follow as well as effective for basic qigong practice.

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 11:29 AM   #248
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,114
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Quote:
Jackie Adams wrote: View Post
Hello again everyone, I hope the day is treating everyone well.

Matt, wheeeww....thanks I was really concerned I misunderstood what your were saying. I agree with you 100%. The Founder was a good teacher and without him...well we all in Aikido would be doing something else. I too am not either at a level of skill to eliminate guessing. I am flattered when people think I am definitive. Uncomfortable when that happens I proper to correct politely telling them am not. Thanks Matt, have a great day, take good care of yourself.
Hi Jackie,
In my opinion, what made him good has more to do with the personal value his direct students had in their experiences. He was good; he was bad; he was human.
From what I understand, it had more to do with his son and the various shihan for why so many of us practice Aikido today, but to be sure, if not for O Sensei and his ability to demonstrate something that was perhaps a step or two above the norm, "Aikido" might not be here. Same for Takeda sensei. These were guys who put their craft on display so others could at least begin to approach it, even if perhaps they didn't always do much more than that.
When I look at the few shihan I've learned anything about, Tomiki sensei comes to mind as the archetypical teacher. He seems to have systematically broken things down in terms of how to teach, although many would argue the Tomiki Ryu isn't much better off than many other Aikido systems, in terms of IP.
Regarding Socrates' approach to teaching: he always seemed to have a clear idea in mind, even if he took some time in getting there. I always got the feeling that his questions were rhetorical, so while he would allow the other person to find their own way through the logic, he always established very clear directions for how that should come about. So while he provided that learning environment to induce critical thinking, he also spoon-fed the context. It was as if he built large room of learning and kept placing a new stone in front of the "student" as they walked along together toward it, giving the illuson that they came up with the answer themsleves while actually being pulled along in very definite directions.
By today's standards (based on my studies in the field of Education..which I should add are also low-level), I think that so many of Ueshiba's deshi describe not really understanding him is pretty good grounds for criticising his role as teacher...again, by today's standards, at least. I remember a math teacher I had once who really knew what she was doing (phd in math is pretty accomplished), and while she could inspire us to enjoy how math could be used, she wasn't good at teaching us how to understand the parts she was teaching. She would just demonstrate to us how she worked out the equations and seemed to put little effort into finding new ways of getting the students who didn't get it to understand. To those who perhaps had greater mathematical proclivity (or whatever made her lessons successful where they were), she was a great teacher, but to thse who (for whatever reason) didn't pick up on what she was presenting, she was not a good teacher. She was a mathematician more than a teacher. Very similarly, O Sensei was, I think, a student of budo more than a teacher. To the extent this might be true I can't find fault, though. He was from a very different time and cultural situation than we are today. Perhaps his best teaching trait was in demonstrating how to be a good student?
Anyhoo...my two bits.
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 04-13-2012 at 11:37 AM.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 12:12 PM   #249
jackie adams
Location: CA
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 73
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Matt, how are you feeling today? I hope your are not under the weather and your health has returned. Thank you again for your reply and sharing your thoughts with me.

Best wishes and the best of training.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 12:24 PM   #250
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,114
United_States
Offline
Re: The Founder's Teaching Ability

Quote:
Jackie Adams wrote: View Post
Matt, how are you feeling today? I hope your are not under the weather and your health has returned. Thank you again for your reply and sharing your thoughts with me.

Best wishes and the best of training.
Hi Jackie,
I'm feeling better and better, thank you! And it was my pleasure; thank you for the chance to think about it more deeply!
Hope your day is going nicely!
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is two Days a week enough? EMelanson78 General 237 11-03-2010 11:57 AM
Teaching Aikido to Children Seminar - 2010 Aviv Teaching 3 06-28-2010 01:01 PM
Founder's Legacy, some thoughts aikishihan Voices of Experience 0 12-29-2009 05:15 AM
What's your sensei teaching you? Robert Jackson General 29 06-13-2005 08:08 AM
teaching Aikido helps teaching in genera taras Teaching 0 05-24-2004 01:18 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:55 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate