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Old 03-26-2012, 01:26 PM   #26
Eric Joyce
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Alic Xie wrote: View Post
Erm... Dan, that's Inoue Kyoichi hanshi 10th dan. He's one of the most powerful masters of Yoshinkan, and one of the original uchi-deshi's of Shioda Gozo. He was Yoshinkan's 2nd kancho, and was the chief Aikido instructor of Tokyo Metropolitan Police. In terms of expertise, no one questioned him. Please do your research before critizing a grandmaster.

Inoue sensei helped Shioda sensei formulate the kihon doza, which was based heavily upon the basic movements as taught by O-sensei. These are the crown jewel of Yoshinkan and the foundational movements of our techniques. We practice them until they're ingrained in our reflexes, and these movements will bleed into the techniques, which contains all of the motions. Shioda kancho has once said that to improve quickly, just do all the movements 1000 times a day.

I know it looks robotic and cumbersome, but remember that this holds true for all of Yoshinkan, and yet Yoshinkan is acknowledged by the Tokyo riot police as their required martial art. I've felt both the power that comes from these movements as demonstrated by my sensei, and my own improvements as I trained with them.

I highly encourage you to try them out before saying they're useless. These movements help focus your centreline and reduce floppy movements, and just training for a month should show visible improvements to your Aikido.

My interest is in whether or not Yoshinkan's hiriki no yosei is at all similar to the one described in O-sensei's book. Since Shioda Gozo was training with O-sensei at the very beginning of Aikido, and definately learned the original elbow power development, he must've incorporated them into the hiriki no yosei of Yoshinkan.
Hi Alic,

I am a former Yoshinkan practioneer and have done the basic kihon dosa many, many times. After working with Sensei Popkin, hopefully Dan in the very near future, research and working with others, the kihon dosa within the Yoshinkan...specifically the hiriki no yosei movements...do not help in developing that IP or IS. They help with doing Yoshinkan Aikido movements, but it really ends there IMHO.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:51 PM   #27
Aikibu
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Re: Elbow Power

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well sure. Basic Japanese models-(meaning lacking real information) if trained well will help to a degree to get the focus off the shoulder. However, the real information is part of a deeper process from internal to external that blows the lid off of conventional budo movement to the point that those same Japanese shihan couldn't touch someone who knows this well. You'd walk right through them.

It's only magnified with weapons, but I have never seen the completeness of the skill in any Japanese teachers movement. I think the Japanese Nage/uke model has severely hampered real progress.
Dan
Thanks Dan...I have certainly reached a plateau in my training and I don't like our Iaido very much... which has caused me to be frowned upon within our small community.

Hopefully one of these days I'll meet someone like you Dan who'll motivate me to jump off the edge and leap into a better paradigm.

In the meantime mindful solo practice and the occasional randori session will have to do. I am watching our Art get all fluffy-ed out( Just my opinion please do not take offense Nishio Ryu practitioners) with new "wrinkles" as Nishio Shihan Senior Students make their own impression. What I would give to see some of the more solid Shihan like Tanaka Sensei come and visit. Oh Well.

William Hazen
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:59 PM   #28
chillzATL
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Yard work has decent IP benefits, but spear and pole shaking is better.
I think the best stuff comes from solo and then paired training with someone who is developed themselves for a plethera of reasons. Kata is kindergarten level stuff for IP/aiki-which elbow power is an expression of- that will forever be limited due to the limitations of that venue. IME, it actually prevents serious development.
Dan
I really just see it as general conditioning right now. Some things have a pole shaking feel to me more than others. For instance, post hole diggers and from this past weekend, swinging a pick axe for hours on end. Definintely different, but similar in some ways. Other things seem to provide different conditioning. Throwing 60lb bags of top soil and gravel on my shoulders and moving them from place to place. You quickly feel how the shoulders can raise/tense to support that load and how the lower back, hips/kua, etc start to tense up and kick in when fatigue sets in. When you relax all that stuff out of the way and just let it pass through you, it's stupidly easy to do and takes very little muscle as we commonly think about it. One of the most interesting things to me was the sensation in the feet and the stability that resulted from keeping that pressure in one part of the foot vs. another. One part I felt extremely stable and connected to the ground and the other my feet felt loose, unstable and disconnected from the rest of me. That particular feeling in the feet is something that I've been thinking about a lot when I train in general, so it stood out to me.
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Old 03-26-2012, 02:39 PM   #29
chillzATL
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Re: Elbow Power

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post

Gardening just leaves me crippled with back pain. Still haven't figured out how to do much of that without paying for it later.
I've had some pretty serious lower back issues since I was 17, two years into aikido, and they have plagued me for decades now. Since I started this type of training, I've seen the single biggest improvement in general comfort level since the problems started. It certainly was not an overnight thing, but now that I've gotten to a point that I allow my body to carry itself in the same way that I use it when I'm doing the training, it's made a pretty amazing difference. I spent all day yesterday moving heavy lumber and bags of soil and then digging holes for raised gardens with a shovel and pick axe and I have no ill effects. A year or two ago I probably would have had to take today off after that, if I made it through the day to begin with.
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Old 03-30-2012, 06:45 PM   #30
Henrypsim
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Re: Elbow Power

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Thanks Dan...I have certainly reached a plateau in my training and I don't like our Iaido very much... which has caused me to be frowned upon within our small community.

Hopefully one of these days I'll meet someone like you Dan who'll motivate me to jump off the edge and leap into a better paradigm.

In the meantime mindful solo practice and the occasional randori session will have to do. I am watching our Art get all fluffy-ed out( Just my opinion please do not take offense Nishio Ryu practitioners) with new "wrinkles" as Nishio Shihan Senior Students make their own impression. What I would give to see some of the more solid Shihan like Tanaka Sensei come and visit. Oh Well.

William Hazen
Uh-Oh........another Aikido heretic in the making. Now I know for sure I am not alone.
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Old 03-31-2012, 01:24 AM   #31
Abasan
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Re: Elbow Power

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I really just see it as general conditioning right now. Some things have a pole shaking feel to me more than others. For instance, post hole diggers and from this past weekend, swinging a pick axe for hours on end. Definintely different, but similar in some ways. Other things seem to provide different conditioning. Throwing 60lb bags of top soil and gravel on my shoulders and moving them from place to place. You quickly feel how the shoulders can raise/tense to support that load and how the lower back, hips/kua, etc start to tense up and kick in when fatigue sets in. When you relax all that stuff out of the way and just let it pass through you, it's stupidly easy to do and takes very little muscle as we commonly think about it. One of the most interesting things to me was the sensation in the feet and the stability that resulted from keeping that pressure in one part of the foot vs. another. One part I felt extremely stable and connected to the ground and the other my feet felt loose, unstable and disconnected from the rest of me. That particular feeling in the feet is something that I've been thinking about a lot when I train in general, so it stood out to me.
Jason, how do you deal with the physical compaction of the spine with those drop loads on your shoulders? Or does the act of passing through to the ground, actually involves extension of body alignment such that it naturally averts the compaction the spine?

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 03-31-2012, 01:52 PM   #32
Henrypsim
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Re: Elbow Power

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I know -exactly- who he is. and what those are. I see flaws and always have seen flaws in them. In fact I can point them out and correct them and have done so and shown a better way. His movement lacks the conditioning of both Ueshiba and Shioda needed to do even the limited expression in that kata. There are others here beside me who see it as well.
I am not looking at how robotic in nature. That's kata, and that's okay. There are tell tale indicators for things that are not there and failures in the movements.
Why can't you see those?

I accept your standard. Do your own.
Let me ask you:
1. When do you "trust" in others?
2. How do you trust in others?
3. How do you vet the opinions of others?
4. Rank?
5. Actual skill?
6. Reputation with 40 years of cooperating uke in kata demonstrations?
7. Or reputation from standing in rooms with adversarial people bent on taking you apart and never succeeding?
8. How about fighting....with aiki?

There will always be teachers who critique other methods-that is NOT criticizing the teacher. Why do you think there are so many methods of aikido? There is NO disrespect on my end. NONE.
What you are really saying is who am I to critique him.
I am routinely cautioned not to tell the truth, to either avoid or lie about what I see, and down play what I have done and can do. Why? Because people are sensitive to the truth about their teachers and the arts. And pick any art, it isn't just about Aikido.
What does that say?
The truth is there are men who can literally take apart some of the most famous Japanese bad-asses out there-by using the aiki from Ueshiba's aikido. If that shocks you I can only say that when discussing deeper training, true power and aiki... you might be in for some serious awakenings long past any one particular master class teacher or any one art.

For a positive spin...look a it this way.
What if the aiki...in Ueshiba's aikido could actually be world class powerful and take apart most methods in traditional budo and you could learn it in a relatively short time frame?
What if...the best method to learn was from.......Westerners and not the Japanese?
Dan
I am certain that O-Sensei's vision will prevail someday. Thanks Dan. Unfortunately from what I have seen and experience in this few days, I doubt I will see it in my life time. O-Sensei might not agree with your last sentence (he is after all, Janpanese) but I am sure he is smiling and winking at you right now.
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Old 04-01-2012, 10:06 AM   #33
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Elbow Power

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Henry Sim wrote: View Post
I am certain that O-Sensei's vision will prevail someday. Thanks Dan. Unfortunately from what I have seen and experience in this few days, I doubt I will see it in my life time. O-Sensei might not agree with your last sentence (he is after all, Janpanese) but I am sure he is smiling and winking at you right now.
Honestly, I would love for anyone to explain to me how the Japanese way of doing things is better than the Western way. Really.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 04-01-2012, 11:10 AM   #34
Aikibu
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Re: Elbow Power

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Honestly, I would love for anyone to explain to me how the Japanese way of doing things is better than the Western way. Really.
Why does it always have to be a zero sum premise is what I want to know....Both approaches have good and bad paradigms...

In nature it's all about sorting adapting and blending "approaches" to "life"... I think they call it "evolution".

IMHO who's to say O'Sensei did not want Aikido to emulate nature and evolve?

No ones running around with Samurai Swords ready to cut down evildoers at a moments notice these days.

William Hazen.
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Old 04-01-2012, 11:20 PM   #35
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Elbow Power

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Why does it always have to be a zero sum premise is what I want to know....Both approaches have good and bad paradigms...

In nature it's all about sorting adapting and blending "approaches" to "life"... I think they call it "evolution".

IMHO who's to say O'Sensei did not want Aikido to emulate nature and evolve?

No ones running around with Samurai Swords ready to cut down evildoers at a moments notice these days.

William Hazen.
Right, "evolution", "progression", "adapting", "blending"--all of which the Japanese method is incapable of doing.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 04-02-2012, 12:13 AM   #36
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Re: Elbow Power

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Right, "evolution", "progression", "adapting", "blending"--all of which the Japanese method is incapable of doing.
How long have you been in Japan Lorel? Over the years I lived there, I went through phases of thinking like that. After about 2 years I got quite negative... Anyway, I don't think it is quite that cut and dried.
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Old 04-02-2012, 01:45 AM   #37
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Elbow Power

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Right, "evolution", "progression", "adapting", "blending"--all of which the Japanese method is incapable of doing.
10,000+ ryu in the Edo period, each with significant differences. Daito-ryu, a clear development/progression/adaptation of jujutsu. Judo - - - Kendo - Jukendo from jukenjutsu. Tatei (stage fighting from kenjutsu). ETc.

Oh, and modern aikido, a divergence from the aikido of Ueshiba Morihei, taking it away from a conservative, religiously clotted, hermetic pursuit open only to a few into a modern activity that affects the life of millions.

Within aikido - Tomiki aikido, Yoshinkan, Tohei . . .

Ironically, those who are espousing an alleged "return" to the aikido of Ueshiba Morihei (or at least, a "return" to the kind of body education and function that he allegedly demonstrated - <note: I'm one of them, sort of>) are, actually espousing a conservative movement.

In fact, one might say, those Japanese are too damn progressive.

Ellis Amdur

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Old 04-02-2012, 02:54 AM   #38
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Elbow Power

Let me explain myself here.

Robin, I have been here for 5 years now, almost. I do not think "negatively", but critically. I wince at the notion of the Japanese method being "progressive" or "evolving", which I think has not been defined here. That is why I asked for an explanation or evidence as to how it is. I appreciate the your patronizing comment though.

Ellis,
Good points. Although I am hypothesizing that the innovations and progressions that occured during the Edo period, etc. were birthed out of necessity of war. And I question whether Tohei, Shioda, Tomiki, etc. had truly made innovations in Ueshiba's art. Did it really improve upon his art? Did those systems make the principles of aikido much more easier attain or did it move away from those principles and were they built upon more superior principles? And were these principles taught in a way that they were adapted to more "modern" demands? My definition of "innovation" and "progression" rest upon these these two ideas.

Now, talking about "elbow power" and internal strength, do traditional Japanese martial artists learning the Japnese way really have a "progressive" method and can they rival some of the methods that some westerners are teaching now? If the principal is "elbow" power, how does the focus on waza and the paired practise system existing in most traditional Japanese systems help me learn "elbow" power in a way will help me protect myself on the "streets" and help me refine those methods based on these principles of elbow power to adapt to modern day versions of pressure testing (i.e., MMA, Dog Brother stick fighting, etc.)? If practising waza in pairs (waza, not exercises that focus on body development like agete, push out in aunkai, etc.) can be a detriment to developing core skills and to help me prepare for more pressured environments, can it be said that this system is "progressive" or "evolving"?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 04-02-2012, 07:53 AM   #39
chillzATL
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Re: Elbow Power

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Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Jason, how do you deal with the physical compaction of the spine with those drop loads on your shoulders? Or does the act of passing through to the ground, actually involves extension of body alignment such that it naturally averts the compaction the spine?
I can't really answer that on any technical level, but it just doesn't seem to be a problem for me at this point. Early on, when I first started doing this, and had to really work at relaxing my lower back (due to the back injuries), I would definitely feel that my lower back was being strained (not in a bad way, more like worked hard) when I would consciously relax my lower back/spine and do things. That fatigue seems to have passed and I guess that my body has just adjusted and gotten stronger. I would think at this point if it were going to impact my spine in a negative way, I'd be feeling it by now, but the exact opposite has been the case. My lower back feels better and stronger now than it has at any point in the last 15-20 years.

My guess, and this is only a guess, is that it has a similar effect as focused lower back stretching, inversion, etc, in that it allows increased blood flow into that area of my back, which helps. I also think that the compaction gets regulated by the body as you get better at relaxing those big muscles and letting the less prominent muscles get stronger and handle the load. It probably wouldn't be good to just jump in and try relaxing your lower back with a big load on your shoulders, but much like any sort of weight training, you build up and increase and get stronger as a result.
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:39 AM   #40
Aikibu
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Re: Elbow Power

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
10,000+ ryu in the Edo period, each with significant differences. Daito-ryu, a clear development/progression/adaptation of jujutsu. Judo - - - Kendo - Jukendo from jukenjutsu. Tatei (stage fighting from kenjutsu). ETc.

Oh, and modern aikido, a divergence from the aikido of Ueshiba Morihei, taking it away from a conservative, religiously clotted, hermetic pursuit open only to a few into a modern activity that affects the life of millions.

Within aikido - Tomiki aikido, Yoshinkan, Tohei . . .

Ironically, those who are espousing an alleged "return" to the aikido of Ueshiba Morihei (or at least, a "return" to the kind of body education and function that he allegedly demonstrated - <note: I'm one of them, sort of>) are, actually espousing a conservative movement.

In fact, one might say, those Japanese are too damn progressive.

Ellis Amdur
Word...Well said.

William Hazen
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:18 AM   #41
Aikibu
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Re: Elbow Power

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Right, "evolution", "progression", "adapting", "blending"--all of which the Japanese method is incapable of doing.
With all due respect Lorel...Isn't Akuzawa Minoru Japanese?

William Hazen
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:48 AM   #42
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Re: Elbow Power

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Honestly, I would love for anyone to explain to me how the Japanese way of doing things is better than the Western way. Really.
By 'ritualizing' certain elements
-lend a certain dignity & depth to the otherwise 'mundane'
-inherent recognition of the beauty & elegance of said mundane elements.
-beauty in the aesthetic. space and time to study and appreciate.. 'built-in'
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:52 AM   #43
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Elbow Power

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
With all due respect Lorel...Isn't Akuzawa Minoru Japanese?

William Hazen
Yes, but what he's doing does not characterize the conventional Japanese method. Meaning he is focussed on principal and does not flood the students with waza. Paired practise is based on the foundation of building and reinforcing the correct body frame for marial movement. Although that has changed, and I have not been practising with the Aunkai peeps in awhile, so what I said might be an inaccurate description of what they are doing today.

Last edited by Lorel Latorilla : 04-02-2012 at 11:55 AM.

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Old 04-02-2012, 12:37 PM   #44
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Elbow Power

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Although I am hypothesizing that the innovations and progressions that occured during the Edo period, etc. were birthed out of necessity of war.
Totally wrong.

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Old 04-02-2012, 12:50 PM   #45
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Elbow Power

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Totally wrong.
Care to expand?

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Old 04-02-2012, 01:14 PM   #46
Aikibu
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Re: Elbow Power

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Yes, but what he's doing does not characterize the conventional Japanese method. Meaning he is focussed on principal and does not flood the students with waza. Paired practise is based on the foundation of building and reinforcing the correct body frame for marial movement. Although that has changed, and I have not been practising with the Aunkai peeps in awhile, so what I said might be an inaccurate description of what they are doing today.
Well you can correct me if I am wrong but Koryu and Gendai Martial Concepts did not evolve in a vacuum but were themselves an evolution of older Martial Arts...He may be going "back to the future" but I believe my point that Japanese Martial Arts can "evolve" and that Japanese Shihan are also incremental in this evolution proves my original point that this evolution is not a zero sum equation.

One could only speculate how O'Sensei might feel about this but I don't think he would be completely unhappy about it.

William Hazen
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Old 04-02-2012, 01:47 PM   #47
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Elbow Power

Edo Era was very peaceful. Martial ryu proliferation was caused by the serious limitations imposed by the shogunate to call bs on what was taught as martial arts. Most of the innovation and evolution was developing flowery technique and kata dancing because the Sengoku Era "put up or shut up" was deemed as barbarical and improper. Nihil novum sub sole.

See for instance:

Ronald Dore. Education in Tokugawa Japan. Routledge Library Editions: Japan, Taylor & Francis, 2010 p 151-152
Thomas A. Green and Joseph R. Svinth, Ed. Martial Arts of the World - An Encyclopedia of History and Innovation. ABC-CLIO 2010. p 599
G. Cameron Hurst. Armed Martial Arts of Japan, Yale Univ. Press 1988, p. 73
Anshin, Anatoliy. The Intangible Warrior Culture of Japan: Bodily Practices, Mental Attitudes, and Values of the Two-sworded men from the Fifteenth to the Twenty-first Centuries, Humanities & Social Sciences, Australian Defence Force Academy, UNSW. pp 85

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 04-02-2012 at 01:49 PM.

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Old 04-02-2012, 01:49 PM   #48
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Elbow Power

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Well you can correct me if I am wrong but Koryu and Gendai Martial Concepts did not evolve in a vacuum but were themselves an evolution of older Martial Arts...He may be going "back to the future" but I believe my point that Japanese Martial Arts can "evolve" and that Japanese Shihan are also incremental in this evolution proves my original point that this evolution is not a zero sum equation.

One could only speculate how O'Sensei might feel about this but I don't think he would be completely unhappy about it.

William Hazen
Honestly, I would love to see Japanese shihan do the same things some Westerners/unconventional Asian martial artists are doing and evolve their systems to meet "modern" demands.

My point is that I don't see it at all.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 04-02-2012, 01:52 PM   #49
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Elbow Power

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Edo Era was very peaceful. Martial ryu proliferation was caused by the serious limitations imposed by the shogunate to call bs on what was taught as martial arts. Most of the innovation and evolution was developing flowery technique and kata dancing because the Sengoku Era "put up or shut up" was deemed as barbarical and improper. Nihil novum sub sole.

See for instance:

Ronald Dore. Education in Tokugawa Japan. Routledge Library Editions: Japan, Taylor & Francis, 2010 p 151-152
Thomas A. Green and Joseph R. Svinth, Ed. Martial Arts of the World - An Encyclopedia of History and Innovation. ABC-CLIO 2010. p 599
G. Cameron Hurst. Armed Martial Arts of Japan, Yale Univ. Press 1988, p. 73
Anshin, Anatoliy. The Intangible Warrior Culture of Japan: Bodily Practices, Mental Attitudes, and Values of the Two-sworded men from the Fifteenth to the Twenty-first Centuries, Humanities & Social Sciences, Australian Defence Force Academy, UNSW. pp 85
OK, I guess I am corrected. I guess "flowery" technique and kata dancing is not really the "innovation" or "progression" that I'm looking for.

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Old 04-02-2012, 06:44 PM   #50
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Re: Elbow Power

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Let me explain myself here.

Robin, I have been here for 5 years now, almost. I do not think "negatively", but critically. I wince at the notion of the Japanese method being "progressive" or "evolving", which I think has not been defined here. That is why I asked for an explanation or evidence as to how it is. I appreciate the your patronizing comment though.
Sorry Lorel. I didn't mean to be patronizing. It is just that I recognize that I went through a few phases where I was very "anti-japanese". You are right in a lot of ways, but I also agree with Ellis and William. There is a weird dichotomy to Japanese progressiveness that is hard for me to pin down.
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