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Old 03-31-2012, 01:08 AM   #26
kewms
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Re: Stretching

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Specifically I am interested to know which muscles Osensei is in danger of micro-tearing or overstretching as a result of the specific stretching pictured above.
In the bottom picture, pretty much every muscle along the back of the leg, from the Achilles tendon all the way up to the glutes. Possibly lower and mid-back. Every muscle that you can feel in a stretch is vulnerable to damage if the stretch is performed improperly.

Obviously, from a static image it is impossible to say what O Sensei was doing internally or what preparatory movements he had done. I'm certainly not going to claim that he was doing it "wrong." But I also suspect that the vast majority of aikidoka who perform that stretch don't have the foggiest idea what O Sensei was doing, or what the "proper" "aiki" approach to that exercise should be. Without that "aiki" content, they are no different from any other athletes, and research on other athletes shows pretty definitively that "non-aiki" static stretching before a workout is a bad idea.

"Because O Sensei did it" isn't a bad place to begin one's explorations, provided you know what "it" actually is.

Katherine
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Old 03-31-2012, 07:52 PM   #27
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Stretching

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
In the bottom picture, pretty much every muscle along the back of the leg, from the Achilles tendon all the way up to the glutes. Possibly lower and mid-back. Every muscle that you can feel in a stretch is vulnerable to damage if the stretch is performed improperly.

Obviously, from a static image it is impossible to say what O Sensei was doing internally or what preparatory movements he had done. I'm certainly not going to claim that he was doing it "wrong." But I also suspect that the vast majority of aikidoka who perform that stretch don't have the foggiest idea what O Sensei was doing, or what the "proper" "aiki" approach to that exercise should be. Without that "aiki" content, they are no different from any other athletes, and research on other athletes shows pretty definitively that "non-aiki" static stretching before a workout is a bad idea.

"Because O Sensei did it" isn't a bad place to begin one's explorations, provided you know what "it" actually is.

Katherine
Thanks for your response Katherine.

I was particularly interested in Janet's answer because I gather that she has done some research and could perhaps indicate some relevant studies. Do you think you could do the same? Otherwise, it is just you telling me there is a danger of damage. It's a complex subject and evidence for risk in a particular kind of stretching for one activity (running is the usual example) will not be the same as in another. That's logical. The question is what are the risks for us and what are the benefits?

Carl
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:30 PM   #28
lbb
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Re: Stretching

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
I was particularly interested in Janet's answer because I gather that she has done some research and could perhaps indicate some relevant studies. Do you think you could do the same? Otherwise, it is just you telling me there is a danger of damage. It's a complex subject and evidence for risk in a particular kind of stretching for one activity (running is the usual example) will not be the same as in another. That's logical. The question is what are the risks for us and what are the benefits?
Hi Carl,

In the sentence that I bolded, what does "another" refer to? Another activity? Or another type of stretching?

If you're asking about stretching, and different types or ways to approach stretching, my own feeling about risk vs. benefit is that (to my understanding) if you're stretching in a way that will get you the most benefit, you're also stretching in a way that minimizes risk. Of course, there are plenty of low-risk ways of "stretching" that won't get you much benefit, if any...they won't do any harm, but they won't do any good either. But the approaches to stretching that produce the most benefit are also quite low-risk. They just don't produce results overnight, which is why (particularly among those who are stretching for flexibility, or who measure the results of their stretching by flexibility) people get impatient and sometimes resort to risky shortcuts. We used to have a saying in my TKD days: "anyone can do the splits...once..."
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Old 03-31-2012, 08:34 PM   #29
jurasketu
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Re: Stretching

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Ashley Hemsath wrote: View Post
"I don't believe in it. You ever seen a lion limber up before taking down a gazelle?"

Sorry, couldn't resist.

--Ashley
I love that quote. Jack LaLanne is DA MAN.

When I worked in the construction business, we "warmed up" by moving heavy lumber around. For me, "breathing" is the true warm up. It is the first thing I do - several nice deep breathing exercises to get the blood flowing to all body parts. Cramping/tight muscles need heat and/or massage therapy - not stretching.

Robin

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Shodan - Started Aikido training in 2008
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Old 04-01-2012, 05:02 AM   #30
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Stretching

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
It's a complex subject and evidence for risk in a particular kind of stretching for one activity (running is the usual example) will not be the same as in another.
Hi Carl,

In the sentence that I bolded, what does "another" refer to? Another activity? Or another type of stretching?
Yes another activity, For example a stretch that affects a muscle that is going to take a pounding through running might not carry the same risks if you substitute running for an activity in which the muscle is barely used. Sports tend to use the omote kinniku (outer muscles) but in aikido most styles are aiming to at least minimise that and certain lineages close to the founder train to forge kokyu-roku which uses the ura-kinniku (inner muscles).

Carl
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Old 04-01-2012, 11:32 AM   #31
Janet Rosen
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Re: Stretching

Carl, I'm a nurse. I don't have the time or inclination to bookmark, save, or catalogue all the health findings I read in real time as they get published. What registers in mind over months and years, is there an accumulation of like findings or are there contradictory findings?
So I can say that multiple studies over time shows static stretching of cold muscles offers NO benefit during or after training and can make the body more prone to microtears or strain - NOT during stretching, during the activity. The most beneficial warmup in terms of training performance and also how one feels after seems to be any brief activity that slighty raises heartbeat and warms muscles via gross movement plus movement drills that mimic the movements and engage neuromuscular responses that will be used during the training. The studies include running and team sports and include both US armed forces and collegiate teams. Cannot provide links, never keep them.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 04-01-2012, 12:42 PM   #32
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Stretching

yup agree with Janet...it is what I have been taught.

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Old 04-01-2012, 05:22 PM   #33
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Stretching

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Carl, I'm a nurse. I don't have the time or inclination to bookmark, save, or catalogue all the health findings I read in real time as they get published. What registers in mind over months and years, is there an accumulation of like findings or are there contradictory findings?
So I can say that multiple studies over time shows static stretching of cold muscles offers NO benefit during or after training and can make the body more prone to microtears or strain - NOT during stretching, during the activity. The most beneficial warmup in terms of training performance and also how one feels after seems to be any brief activity that slighty raises heartbeat and warms muscles via gross movement plus movement drills that mimic the movements and engage neuromuscular responses that will be used during the training. The studies include running and team sports and include both US armed forces and collegiate teams. Cannot provide links, never keep them.
Thanks for trying to clarify that for me Janet

As I said, if we separate warming-up from stretching as part of junbi undo then we are in agreement regarding the "warming-up" part. From what you wrote here about stretching, it seems you are only talking about the dangers of doing it to cold muscles, so I am in agreement with you there too. It also seems that your studies apply mainly to cold stretching for activities that involve sport and running. I still feel in the dark regarding the dangers of "correctly" (for type, moderation and purpose) stretching a warm body for an activity like aikido.
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