shiho nage

Peter Rehse wrote: Well I am in China - where they ban facebook and youtube - neither is a great loss but occaisionally inconvenient. I still get http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10c.html which at least demonstrates the classic form. Cheers

I wasn't sure if you were still there or not. Thank you, Peter! I feel a little dumb: I looked on the page initially, but apparently didn't see the links for the waza.
Would that be considered the omote version? If so, how would the ura look in comparison?
Take care!
Matt

Matthew Gano wrote: I wasn't sure if you were still there or not. Thank you, Peter! I feel a little dumb: I looked on the page initially, but apparently didn't see the links for the waza. Would that be considered the omote version? If so, how would the ura look in comparison? Take care! Matt

Oh wow - what is omote and ura and how do they differ is the subject of a whole new thread. Shodokan terminology does not really deal with the distinction - the closest you come is really tenkai vs non-tenkai. If I was really pressed I would say tenkai kotegaishi is the ura of kotogaishi just as tenkai kotohineri is the ura of koto hineri but I would not be happy. Wrist techniques are classed firstly on how the wrist is grabbed and further variations in the syllabus tend to be based on what type of attack.

Frankly speaking - I consider the omote and ura division more a matter of convenience along the lines of variation 1 and 2. Limiting rather than infoming.

Joe Curran wrote: Hi Cliff, I think you have the idea.First you have got to start together at a fixed point ie a directional position which you can relate to.A good idea is to determine North /South /East /West ie the direction of ukes ukemi. Do this map ref.from your point of view as Tori.So you would face due North/Uke faces .SouthSelect Migi Gyaku Hamni katatedori..Then proceed from that point.The first three are easy peasy , no. 4. is the awkward one.luck.Cheers, Joe.

So....the fourth direction involves basically rotating your uke 270 degrees, right?

Peter Rehse wrote: Oh wow - what is omote and ura and how do they differ is the subject of a whole new thread. Shodokan terminology does not really deal with the distinction - the closest you come is really tenkai vs non-tenkai. If I was really pressed I would say tenkai kotegaishi is the ura of kotogaishi just as tenkai kotohineri is the ura of koto hineri but I would not be happy. Wrist techniques are classed firstly on how the wrist is grabbed and further variations in the syllabus tend to be based on what type of attack. Frankly speaking - I consider the omote and ura division more a matter of convenience along the lines of variation 1 and 2. Limiting rather than infoming.

Very interesting! Thank you, Peter! I didn't remember "omote" or "ura" in what I recall from training (little though it was) so I had a feeling it might be something like that.
Thanks again! Hope all is well!
Take care,
Matt

Joe Curran wrote: Hi Cliff, I think you have the idea.First you have got to start together at a fixed point ie a directional position which you can relate to.A good idea is to determine North /South /East /West ie the direction of ukes ukemi. Do this map ref.from your point of view as Tori.So you would face due North/Uke faces .SouthSelect Migi Gyaku Hamni katatedori..Then proceed from that point.The first three are easy peasy , no. 4. is the awkward one.luck.Cheers, Joe.

Hi Joe,
I am trying to figure out whether you and me are doing this the same way. But I am hopeless with descriptions of techniques. The startingpoint is a compass (or as Tada sensei always used; a clock). The condition is that all four variations are done static. The way you describe them, the first three sound exactly as the way I would do it. It is the fourth that I do not fully envision. Perhaps it is different from what I do? I go straight in, just before he goes down uke has to move a little bit to keep some of his balance. It does not really involve uke turning or moving a lot. How is this different from what you do or is it the same? Could you help me out here?
Tom

Cliff Judge wrote: So....the fourth direction involves basically rotating your uke 270 degrees, right?

Ah, I see, that is what Joe meant !

But... that would involve a flowing movement. Why not start the first three with the same flowing movement?

kind regards,

Tom

Tom Verhoeven wrote: Ah, I see, that is what Joe meant ! But... that would involve a flowing movement. Why not start the first three with the same flowing movement? kind regards, Tom

Dear Tom,
You do indeed start all the four movements of Shiho Nage /any other waza by making a flowing movement .Not the flowing tai sabaki [ushiro tenkan]movement related to no 4 in the shiho nage .The difference is that in each case tori has to acquire a flowing tai sabaki [depending on what you want to do ]] in executing each waza.The forms may change , but the principles remain the same.Its all about Where /When ?How.
Where =Position of Tori in relation to Uke.When =timing[Early /Late/Mutual. How=what you decide to do in relation to the aforementioned and in relation to how your Uke attacks/responds.
Cheers, Joe.

Joe Curran wrote: Dear Tom, You do indeed start all the four movements of Shiho Nage /any other waza by making a flowing movement .Not the flowing tai sabaki [ushiro tenkan]movement related to no 4 in the shiho nage .The difference is that in each case tori has to acquire a flowing tai sabaki [depending on what you want to do ]] in executing each waza.The forms may change , but the principles remain the same.Its all about Where /When ?How. Where =Position of Tori in relation to Uke.When =timing[Early /Late/Mutual. How=what you decide to do in relation to the aforementioned and in relation to how your Uke attacks/responds. Cheers, Joe.

Hello Joe,
Thanks for responding so quick.
I could not agree more with you. It can be said of any technique in Aikido. But I still am in doubt if I am drawing a correct image of the way you do this. Has nothing to do with your effort, am just not good with descriptions. Just set up a new greenhouse. First thing I did was to toss away the description. Kept the drawing. Had no problem at all setting the thing up. Had a look at the description afterwards and still did not understand it.
Can it be found on youtube?. Otherwise you 'll just have to show me sometime
Greetings from the Auvergne,
Tom

always curious about the 4 directions of shihonage. sure, shi is 4, but why folks think that's the throw actually has 4 directions? in my language, which was heavily influenced by chinese, often four-direction means differently. for example, if i said i have traveled to 4 corners of the world, then it meant i have gone around the world. i have always thought shihonage is "around the world" throw, i.e. you spin in circle. am i mistaken?

Phi Truong wrote: always curious about the 4 directions of shihonage. sure, shi is 4, but why folks think that's the throw actually has 4 directions? in my language, which was heavily influenced by chinese, often four-direction means differently. for example, if i said i have traveled to 4 corners of the world, then it meant i have gone around the world. i have always thought shihonage is "around the world" throw, i.e. you spin in circle. am i mistaken?

I agree. I think it means it can be done in essentially any direction.

Phi Truong wrote: always curious about the 4 directions of shihonage. sure, shi is 4, but why folks think that's the throw actually has 4 directions? in my language, which was heavily influenced by chinese, often four-direction means differently. for example, if i said i have traveled to 4 corners of the world, then it meant i have gone around the world. i have always thought shihonage is "around the world" throw, i.e. you spin in circle. am i mistaken?

Hello Phi,
I agree. And I like the translation into around-the world-throw a lot. In Aikido the whole idea of shiho nage is that you can throw or pin down your partner in every possible direction. That makes it an ideal technique in case a second opponent shows up; you can place or throw partner 1 between yourself and partner 2.

I would not be surprised if the reason that Joe emphasized flow in his explanation has a lot to do with that.

In teaching the technique to beginners though, I first let them practice two directions - in many dojo this would be called omote and ura. Once they understand that, I introduce the idea of four directions. And the easiest way to understand that in my experience is to keep it simple. They start four times in the same position and from that static situation the object is to move in four directions and to throw in four directions. Once they have got that everything starts to move, nage, uke, even the four directions are no longer static, they change into eight directions, in all directions. So it looks like you are spinning in a circle.

You are not mistaken at all, you are right. For me, I was not discussing technique as such, but more the didactics of it.

Kind regards,
Tom

There is a vid out there of M. Saito showing explicitly shiho nage with throws in each of the four directions. I think it is on one of the Lost Seminars DVDs.

Shiho Nage is my favourite technique. Mainly because I'm only 1m70 tall and light on my feet.

One thing I've been thinking about though: why do most people even high ranking teachers, execute it so badly? I see a lot of people lifting Uke's arm above uke's shoulder line, or even above or behind tori's head. That will work on 99% of all aikidoka because most of us are "programmed" to react in the "correct" way (read: they're being overly compliant). On beginners, though, it suddenly doesn't work anymore: they keep making cute pirouettes because it's the natural way to react if you don't know anything about aikido.
I've spent some time looking into that and noticed that a lot of people tend to loosen the initial extention and thus restabilize uke, allowing uke to pretty easily drag tori to the ground. Another thing is that people can easily do pirouettes if you lift Uke's arm above their shoulders. Keep their arm on that level or slightly below it, while keeping the extention, and you're set. These two mistakes are very closely related, and one often leads to another.

This does make Shiho Nage a bit more dangerous than most of us would like, though, especially with a slower/older/stiffer uke..

I find that shiho nage is a lot like ikkyo in the way that it looks super easy but is pretty hard if you want apply it correctly.

After many, many years of practice, I have concluded that beginner ukes don't pirouette 'out of a shiho-age' because it's any kind of natural response, but rather that they see the technique demonstrated as having some turning motion, and they feel awkward just standing there ... they just start turning in any direction.

My recommendation ... do not base a technique solely on how well you can do it on someone who is sincerely trying to do the right thing, but just doesn't know what that thing is..

Jim Redel wrote: After many, many years of practice, I have concluded that beginner ukes don't pirouette 'out of a shiho-age' because it's any kind of natural response, but rather that they see the technique demonstrated as having some turning motion, and they feel awkward just standing there ... they just start turning in any direction. My recommendation ... do not base a technique solely on how well you can do it on someone who is sincerely trying to do the right thing, but just doesn't know what that thing is..

Then my question is: why would anyone remain standing there? It doesn't make any sense that uke stops attacking after the first blow. AFAIK, the natural reaction to any kind of wrist or elbow lock (which shiho nage is during its initial stages) is to either resist or to get out. I'm either positioning myself to roll out of a throw safely, or positioning myself to be able to reverse the roles if nage's technique is unable to keep me unbalanced throughout its course.

I've tried shiho nage on people who've never seen it before and they too pirouetted out of it if I didn't apply it correctly (and they generally endangered themselves when I did do it well). It's the same thing with ikkyo: apply it to someone who hasn't experienced or seen it before and they will turn their backs towards you in an attempt to lessen the lock and/or pain if you don't immediately take them to the ground. Same case with sankyo as well. I'd even go as far as saying that a lot of more experienced people, including yudansha, tend to turn their back on nage in case of ikkyo. It's really a perfectly natural way of reacting when your elbow is being bent like that.

This is why training with absolute beginners is so enlightening: they aren't conditioned yet. They react as their body tells them to, ie. less pain = good, even if that ends up putting them in more vulnerable positions.

Then again, teaching people to be good ukes is way more difficult than teaching them to be good nages. I find that being a good uke takes a lot more concentration and physical fitness than being a good nage. You have to be able to react very quickly from time to time.

I can not remember a beginner ever pirouetting out of my shihonage. I wonder what the difference is between how I do it and when it does happen. Perhaps it is the elbow control that is crucial to the technique.

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: Beginners have to develop a strong grip that is coming from center, not from shoulders. Such development can be done i.e. with a lot of bokken/ jo practice. Of course always there will be somebody very strong that will be able to make you work hard, but that is a point -- there is no sense to practice always with complaisant attacker. Without such basic mechanics, where students understand very clearly each stage of technique, and can reproduce it at their will, there is no point to go further. Introducing Ki-like concepts only lead to distortion and watering down aikido.

Spot on. And not only for beginners - it's for everyone. Never stray too far from the basics as the further you go the further you get nowhere.

Also, shiho-nage literally 'seems' to mean 4 directions to Westerners but in Japanese, shiho is more like saying, NSEW - all directions of the compass. It means you should be able to throw uke anywhere. Therefore, all talk of this direction and that direction adding up to a total of four is just made-up bunk. No harm done though, but the more directions the better. Best to stick with the basics though.

And I also agree with Peter - behind every good shiho-nage is a good mae-othoshi or ude kime-nage (depending upon your school's terminology).

only those from the old azuma air base, Iwama style, and, under osensei's idea, which kissomaru did for a while....in katadori shihonage ura, uke's hand goes only down, never rises, from the moment he grabs you, until he's pinned.
in order to accomplish that, you have to do two, of what are today called, 'tenkans.' The 'never rises' and two tenkans was also true for kotrgaeshi.
No one does it that way any more, not even the 3rd dosho, Saito never could. But, it was osensei's idea to do so.