Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-27-2012, 04:03 PM   #1
Zoe S Toth
Dojo: Seidokan Aikido of South Carolina
Location: Columbia, SC
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 38
United_States
Offline
Stretching

Hello all!

I've never met a teacher in any physical activity (ranging from zumba to soccer to martial arts) who thinks you can skip streching. YET everyone has vastly different ideas about streching which is understandable. Afterall, soccer uses different muscles than Aikido so why strech the same.

To my understanding, ballistic streching is not very efficent and many suggest it is down right harmful. Yet that is what our main sensei does here. (Personally, I have to admit I deviate and try to hold the streches to make them static. He's never said a word to me, although I try to be as nondisruptive as I can.) We also have a yudasha who is a certified chiroprator and has flat out said ballastic streching is bad for you.

All of our black belts have their own verisions of warm ups that draw from their life experience. One who boxed, for example, has us do 'on our feet' warm ups before sitting down and breathing. The chiroprator has us do static streches.

This makes me curious about other dojo's warm up. What do you guys do? Also, if you can't do what the sensei is doing (for medical/ safety reasons) do you deviate or try to stick it out?

Thanks!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 04:11 PM   #2
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,087
United_States
Offline
Re: Stretching

Quote:
Zoe Toth wrote: View Post
Hello all!

I've never met a teacher in any physical activity (ranging from zumba to soccer to martial arts) who thinks you can skip streching. YET everyone has vastly different ideas about streching which is understandable. Afterall, soccer uses different muscles than Aikido so why strech the same.

To my understanding, ballistic streching is not very efficent and many suggest it is down right harmful. Yet that is what our main sensei does here. (Personally, I have to admit I deviate and try to hold the streches to make them static. He's never said a word to me, although I try to be as nondisruptive as I can.) We also have a yudasha who is a certified chiroprator and has flat out said ballastic streching is bad for you.

All of our black belts have their own verisions of warm ups that draw from their life experience. One who boxed, for example, has us do 'on our feet' warm ups before sitting down and breathing. The chiroprator has us do static streches.

This makes me curious about other dojo's warm up. What do you guys do? Also, if you can't do what the sensei is doing (for medical/ safety reasons) do you deviate or try to stick it out?

Thanks!
Try this one for a slightly different outlook: http://saveyourself.ca/articles/stretching.php

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 04:14 PM   #3
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 550
Sweden
Offline
Re: Stretching

Its important to separate ballistic and dynamic stretching. Dynamic stretching, that is controlled, non static stretching (ex lunges, squats, wall slides etc) is superior to static stretching in warm-ups. Static stretching before training actually makes you weaker and increase the risk of injury.

Stumbled upon this study today: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22446678

Quote:
ABSTRACT: Aguilar, AJ, DiStefano, LJ, Brown, CN, Herman, DC, Guskiewicz, KM, and Padua, DA. A dynamic warm-up model increases quadriceps strength and hamstring flexibility. J Strength Cond Res 26(4): 1130-1141, 2012-Research suggests that static stretching can negatively influence muscle strength and power and may result in decreased functional performance. The dynamic warm-up (DWU) is a common alternative to static stretching before physical activity, but there is limited research investigating the effects of a DWU. The purpose of this study was to compare the acute effects of a DWU and static stretching warm-up (SWU) on muscle flexibility, strength, and vertical jump using a randomized controlled trial design. Forty-five volunteers were randomly assigned into a control (CON), SWU, or DWU group. All participants rode a stationary bicycle for 5 minutes and completed a 10-minute warm-up protocol. During this protocol, the DWU group performed dynamic stretching and running, the SWU group performed static stretching, and the CON group rested. Dependent variables were measured immediately before and after the warm-up protocol. A digital inclinometer measured flexibility (degrees) for the hamstrings, quadriceps, and hip flexor muscles. An isokinetic dynamometer measured concentric and eccentric peak torque (Nm/kg) for the hamstrings and quadriceps. A force plate was used to measure vertical jump height (meters) and power (watts). In the DWU group, there was a significant increase in hamstring flexibility (pretest: 26.4 13.5, posttest: 16.9 9.4; p < .0001) and eccentric quadriceps peak torque (pretest: 2.49 0.83 Nm/kg, posttest: 2.78 0.69 Nm/kg; p = 0.04). The CON and SWU did not significantly affect any flexibility, strength, or vertical jump measures (p > 0.05). The DWU significantly improved eccentric quadriceps strength and hamstrings flexibility, whereas the SWU did not facilitate any positive or negative changes in muscle flexibility, strength, power, or vertical jump. Therefore, the DWU may be a better preactivity warm-up choice than an SWU.

Last edited by grondahl : 03-27-2012 at 04:18 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 05:17 PM   #4
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,815
United_States
Offline
Re: Stretching

i used a number of elements from this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Bd8J3nTMOWk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL...yer_detailpage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL...&v=kuzpnJcLu0w

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 06:01 PM   #5
Jon Haas
Location: South Jersey
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 27
United_States
Offline
Re: Stretching

Hi Zoe,

Here's a different opinion: To Stretch or Not to Stretch

Hope this helps!

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 06:35 PM   #6
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Stretching

Quote:
Jon Haas wrote: View Post
Hi Zoe,

Here's a different opinion: To Stretch or Not to Stretch

Hope this helps!
Nice approach Jon - gave me some different insights to think about.

Thanks

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 06:55 PM   #7
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,962
Offline
Re: Stretching

All current research I"m aware of says there is no benefit to static stretching before exercise and there may be risk of microtears if stretching cold muscles.
Most aikido dojos seem to do a hodgepodge of range of motion, static stretching and dynamic stretching as their "warmups." I believe that good range of motion is all that is really needed. Nobody listens to me :-)

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 06:57 PM   #8
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,962
Offline
Re: Stretching

I add that range of motion can and should focus on movements specific to the activity to be done. For this reason I think a little general range of motion + the "ki exercises" (udefuri waza, etc) + some low key rolling are in themselves plenty of "warm up" for aikido.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 07:38 PM   #9
Malicat
Dojo: Suenaka-Ha Aikido of Bloomington
Location: Bloomington, Indiana
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 152
United_States
Offline
Re: Stretching

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
All current research I"m aware of says there is no benefit to static stretching before exercise and there may be risk of microtears if stretching cold muscles.
Most aikido dojos seem to do a hodgepodge of range of motion, static stretching and dynamic stretching as their "warmups." I believe that good range of motion is all that is really needed. Nobody listens to me :-)
"I don't believe in it. You ever seen a lion limber up before taking down a gazelle?"

Sorry, couldn't resist.

--Ashley
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 08:55 PM   #10
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 998
Offline
Re: Stretching

Quote:
Ashley Hemsath wrote: View Post
"I don't believe in it. You ever seen a lion limber up before taking down a gazelle?"
Actually, my cats do pause for stretching during play sessions. They also stretch throughout the day, as they move from one nap spot to another.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 08:57 PM   #11
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 998
Offline
Re: Stretching

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
All current research I"m aware of says there is no benefit to static stretching before exercise and there may be risk of microtears if stretching cold muscles.
Most aikido dojos seem to do a hodgepodge of range of motion, static stretching and dynamic stretching as their "warmups." I believe that good range of motion is all that is really needed. Nobody listens to me :-)
I do! :-)

For my classes, I mostly do range of motion stuff.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 11:29 PM   #12
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,564
United_States
Offline
Re: Stretching

Hey, Janet, I listen. No static stretches, just gentle movements at first working in to the aiki taiso ending with rolling. Then to rest! The movement is to "check in on your body" to see what's tight, what needs more movement, what hurts, etc. Get it moving!

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 11:45 PM   #13
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,962
Offline
Re: Stretching

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Hey, Janet, I listen. No static stretches, just gentle movements at first working in to the aiki taiso ending with rolling. Then to rest! The movement is to "check in on your body" to see what's tight, what needs more movement, what hurts, etc. Get it moving!
That's exactly what I do on my Tuesday night class. Including giving folks about a couple of minutes of freestyle time to move about the mat and work on whatever they find needs it.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 04:45 AM   #14
Carl Thompson
 
Carl Thompson's Avatar
Location: Kasama
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 453
Japan
Offline
Re: Stretching

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
All current research I"m aware of says there is no benefit to static stretching before exercise and there may be risk of microtears if stretching cold muscles.
Most aikido dojos seem to do a hodgepodge of range of motion, static stretching and dynamic stretching as their "warmups." I believe that good range of motion is all that is really needed. Nobody listens to me :-)
Hello Janet

I'm sure your research is well-founded for sports and activities that emphasis the use of regular muscle-power. I wonder why one would want to warm up conventional muscles for use in aikido anyway.

As I understand it, a lot of aikido stretching comes from the makko-ho and nishishiki undo. Then there's chinkon no gyo and other solo exercises.

The way I see it, they are part of the conditioning rather than working on external muscles to prepare them for use in training. In my experience,even push-ups tend to be adapted for conditioning wrists, knuckles and so on with conventional fitness being a useful byproduct.

Regards

Carl
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 06:39 AM   #15
Jon Haas
Location: South Jersey
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 27
United_States
Offline
Re: Stretching

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Nice approach Jon - gave me some different insights to think about.

Thanks

Greg
Thanks Greg!

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 07:38 AM   #16
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
United_States
Offline
Re: Stretching

We have a set of stretches that are always done before taiso. I usually do other things to warm up before class and then use the stretches to stretch my body more than just my muscles. I agree with what Carl said in a lot of ways.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 08:02 AM   #17
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,815
United_States
Offline
Re: Stretching

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Nobody listens to me :-)
what? what? did you say something?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 10:01 AM   #18
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,825
United_States
Offline
Re: Stretching

As with nearly everything, the discussion tends to founder if you don't start off by defining your terms and stating your goal. What do you mean by "stretching" -- people use the term to mean vastly different things, ranging from a warm-up to exercises designed to increase flexibility -- and why do you think you should be doing it?

I believe that if the goal is injury prevention, a pre-workout warmup consisting of fairly slow movement within the normal range of motion is the way to go. But no one listens to me either ;-)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 10:05 AM   #19
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Stretching

I'm listening Mary, and I agree. I don't stretch before training, I warm up.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 11:16 AM   #20
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,962
Offline
Re: Stretching

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Hello Janet
I'm sure your research is well-founded for sports and activities that emphasis the use of regular muscle-power. I wonder why one would want to warm up conventional muscles for use in aikido anyway.
Because we are moving.
We are not power lifting but we are moving in space, rolling, falling, receiving pins, etc. Warmed muscles move through activity with less chance of microtears or overstretch injury.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 12:06 PM   #21
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,825
United_States
Offline
Re: Stretching

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I'm listening Mary, and I agree. I don't stretch before training, I warm up.
Yeah, I meant more that every sensei in the world seems to start class with this stretching-and-warmup melange that is really an homage to tradition rather than a functional exercise.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 12:12 PM   #22
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,564
United_States
Offline
Re: Stretching

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Hello Janet

I'm sure your research is well-founded for sports and activities that emphasis the use of regular muscle-power. I wonder why one would want to warm up conventional muscles for use in aikido anyway.
All I can say is that you must be in great shape. Cause if I don't get some warm up movement in before training I'm going to be regretting the first few times I hit the mat. There are various body parts on me that need to loosen up a bit before I can get out there. Well, before I can get out there with a realistic expectation of being able to get back off under my own power...

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 12:44 PM   #23
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Stretching

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Yeah, I meant more that every sensei in the world seems to start class with this stretching-and-warmup melange that is really an homage to tradition rather than a functional exercise.
Agree and it is a pet peeve of mine. Having taken personal fitness training courses, it pretty much goes against all modern recommendations. That is what most dojos do.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 02:05 AM   #24
Carl Thompson
 
Carl Thompson's Avatar
Location: Kasama
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 453
Japan
Offline
Re: Stretching

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
All I can say is that you must be in great shape. Cause if I don't get some warm up movement in before training I'm going to be regretting the first few times I hit the mat. There are various body parts on me that need to loosen up a bit before I can get out there. Well, before I can get out there with a realistic expectation of being able to get back off under my own power...
Hello Keith

I agree about warming up in the sense of "loosening" or raising the temperature of the body although the extent depends on the season for me. I think the preparatory exercises aren't just about that and I don't regard stretching as being for that.

If you look at Chris's link, one important point is the purpose of stretching. I don't see the need to specifically warm-up the omote kinniku (outer muscles) for the purpose of doing aikido training or how stretching would do that anyway. I agree that movement exercises for "loosening up" and raising the temperature of the body generally (inside and out) are fine as needed.
Quote:
The difference is in intention. The intention of stretching in the context of good qigong, yoga or martial arts is to focus the mind, to stimulate vitality through a combination of mental and physical exercise. The intention is everything without the intention, you might as well not bother with these activities.
I can't see how the stretching parts of the makko-ho and Nishi health systems are intended to loosen up or raise the temperature of muscles. Katsuzō Nishi created his exercises from practising all kinds of health systems including Yoga. He was also a direct student of the founder of aikido and instrumental in the creation of the Aikikai. I don't think Nishi-shiki exercises caught on within the aikido community just because of this position though. Osensei also incorporated Nishi's exercises into his warm-ups along with the makko ho. Here he can clearly be seen doing these stretches.





I am not an advocate of Osensei did it, so it must be right. I am an advocate of Osensei was a gifted martial artist with a good understanding of how to cultivate the human body, so there is a very good chance he knew what he was doing. There is a good chance that he took things of value from Nishi-shiki and the makko-ho.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Because we are moving.
We are not power lifting but we are moving in space, rolling, falling, receiving pins, etc. Warmed muscles move through activity with less chance of microtears or overstretch injury.
In Japanese the preparatory exercises are usually called "junbi undo" or "junbi taiso". The whole job lot of exercises sometimes gets referred to as "warming up" in English. When I teach English, I usually do a "warming up" activity that has nothing to do with body temperature or loosening up the body for movement or falling (actually... it depends on the age of the students. ) The point is that there are different ways in which we are using terminology here.

Let's disambiguate this a little more by totally separating "warming up" from "stretching" within the umbrella-term of "preparatory exercises". If we do that, I think we are in agreement regarding the "warming up" part. The value and purpose of stretching as an activity not for raising temperature/loosening within the preparatory exercises is something I would like to resolve a little more if possible.

Specifically I am interested to know which muscles Osensei is in danger of micro-tearing or overstretching as a result of the specific stretching pictured above.

Which muscles are endangered by the other nishi-shiki exercises and the makko-ho?

Given the ongoing discussions regarding Internal Power and body structure, I think these are important issues to understand before we discard any body-conditioning that Osensei practised. Bear in mind that other martial arts that feature in these discussions also involve actions including stretching as part of their conditioning.

Kind regards
Carl
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2012, 09:48 PM   #25
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: Stretching

What I find interesting is that most of the traditional warm-up isn't really static stretching. It's the "ballistic stretching" that every coach I ever met criticized when I was growing up.

What I think is interesting is that the "fascial fitness" people are promoting something that looks a lot like that old ballistic stretching. Bounce, bounce against some resistance but not taking the ROM past where it's comfortable. Could it be that those old budo people knew what they were doing? Nahhh....
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Long Island Asian Studies Center - Classes: Aiki Budo/Chi Gong/Tai Chi, Author of: Searching For O'Sensei



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Stretching Redux Janet Rosen Training 12 09-03-2010 05:41 PM
What is the Best Stretching to do? MarkCim Training 8 11-10-2008 10:40 AM
best stretching machine? bhollie General 10 01-12-2005 07:37 PM
Stretching . . . carlin General 9 01-12-2005 05:56 PM
Stretching In The News Erik Training 1 09-24-2004 05:21 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:54 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate