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Old 03-17-2012, 10:22 AM   #1
"angry_father"
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Grr! What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

Around the time of my shodan test my home dojo was joined by a returning aikidoist, a middle aged gentleman some decades years out of training, from a certain very proud lineage different to the one on home dojo. My senior instructor and sempai accorded him all privileges and responsibilities of a nidan as befitted him. In a short time, he started instructing in one of the week classes I attended to regularly. I noticed then that he started paying particular attention to the youngest women in the class, the teenage girls. In a few months time I started getting concerned at the paritcular relationship he struck with one of them; which extended to out of the mat. I did not socialize with them, and frankly after a few months I stopped attending that class, because of the discomfort this paritcular picture caused in me. I am a father of girls, and a reader of Aikido history and Aikiweb and the whole thing just was looking really bad to me, but I dont want to be morbid and paranoid, I walked away. A year later I was told her parents had talked to the dojo heads about the situation and asked for help; a few years later , their relationship seems enduring, the young teenage girl is now a young adult woman, sports the proverbial baby boomer, balding out of shape ugly pretender on her arm, he is still practicing Aikido while I am not. My older daughter now entering her teenage asked me when she could join Aikido; my face fell. This is killing me; I love the art, but the culture that accepts and enables this repels me. What would you do?
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Old 03-18-2012, 02:04 AM   #2
LinTal
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

Work for a solution at the source, if possible.

Go for a solution to the police, if necessary.

That quiet voice at the back of our minds is often onto something that our conscious thought-track won't accept. However, it's important to distinguish the important, immediate and permanent from their opposites.

The culture of a place can change, for example, though situational awareness and caution is highly important. For your daughter, if you believe the issue is localised to the people/style of your dojo, you way want to shop around.

The world changes when you do.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:50 AM   #3
Marc Abrams
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

Let your daughter join a dojo you are comfortable with. Speak to the dojo cho privately about your concerns. Watch your daughter's classes. One sick person should not used as the example for the art that you love.

Good Luck

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:51 AM   #4
Michael Douglas
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
... I started getting concerned at the paritcular relationship he struck with one of them; which extended to out of the mat.

snip

... a few years later , their relationship seems enduring, the young teenage girl is now a young adult woman, sports the proverbial baby boomer, balding out of shape ugly pretender on her arm, ...
So everything turned out nice in the end, apart from loss of hair and figure, lack of beauty, and your own disapproval.
I guess I'm out of fashion in my attitude ... oops, my wife is twelve years younger than I am! Aargh.

Your story seems to have only a tiny connection to Aikido, it could as well have been badminton.
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Old 03-18-2012, 12:16 PM   #5
Janet Rosen
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

I would have addressed it w/ dojocho back when the now adult young woman was a minor, but too late now.
If the dojo overall has a good training environment and a good dojo culture, then trust how you have raised your daughter and also be open with her about your concerns. Unless you have been raising her in a bubble, it is not an issue she will be shocked by although discussing w/ her dad may discomfort her.
If you actually have reservations about the training environment and culture, why are YOU training there?

Janet Rosen
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Old 03-18-2012, 02:49 PM   #6
SeiserL
 
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

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Anonymous User wrote: View Post
This is killing me; I love the art, but the culture that accepts and enables this repels me. What would you do?
IMHO, the art does not accept and enable this.

The culture does not accept and enable this.

Being protective is better than wishing you has been.

I personally would not let my daughter train where I did not feel she was safe.

If I were the Sensei or Senpai in a school that allowed this - I would be upside his head and he'd be outside the doors.

Zero tolerance.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-18-2012, 04:38 PM   #7
Malicat
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

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So everything turned out nice in the end, apart from loss of hair and figure, lack of beauty, and your own disapproval.
I guess I'm out of fashion in my attitude ... oops, my wife is twelve years younger than I am! Aargh.

Your story seems to have only a tiny connection to Aikido, it could as well have been badminton.
Well, primarily I have to ask if his attention was inappropriate ON the mat. Off the mat is no one's business but their own. If they intended to pursue a romantic relationship, I feel that speaking to the Dojo Cho would have been the respectful thing to do since he was teaching a class. It sounds like they have a steady relationship that has been ongoing for awhile and this wasn't some sort of fling designed to make him feel better about himself at the expense of the girl's self esteem. Plus, as a woman, I generally only date men 8-12 years older than me as a rule. I've found that the way my life has gone, I work better in a relationship with a man with more life experience.

On a side note, you do realize you will despise all of your daughter's boyfriends, right? If it isn't an age issue, there will be multiple other reasons for you to decide he's not good enough for your little girl. Keeping her out of Aikido for fear she will meet an older man may seem rational to you right now, but I assure you the teenage boys she goes to school with who will inevitably ask her out will be just as distasteful to you.

--Ashley
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Old 03-18-2012, 06:26 PM   #8
Michael Hackett
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

"Angry Father" described a situation in terms that suggested to me 1) an older man was teaching at his dojo, 2) that older man started paying inappropriate attention to teenaged girls on the mat, 3) those teenaged girls were under the legal age of consent, 4) one girl's parents became concerned and discussed it with the dojo cho, 5) Angry Father did and said nothing, but stopped attending the older man's classes, and 6) the conduct continued and the older man and now young woman are a couple.

If my understanding is correct, I wouldn't be able to train there myself and wouldn't allow a child of mine to train there. On the other hand, if these "girls" were young women and of the age of consent, my view might be a little different, although I think it a bad practice for anyone in a position of power to initiate a relationship with someone under his control, but adults can make their own choices.

Aikido as I understand it doesn't support predators. It happens in aikido dojo, in the workplace, at schools, clubs, and even religious organizations. That doesn't mean that it should be condoned or accepted. If this situation was as I understood it, much more should have been done by the dojo cho, Angry Father and others. What's the old quote? All it takes for Evil to triumph is for a good man to do nothing.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 03-18-2012, 06:35 PM   #9
robin_jet_alt
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

Well, I'm probably stating the obvious here, but a few ideas are as follows.

1. Tell her about the situation and ask her to avoid this guy's classes.
2. Find another aikido dojo.
3. Tell her about the situation and let her make up her own mind.
4. Set up a dojo in the shed.
5. Just say no.

I wouldn't recommend number 5.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:22 PM   #10
kewms
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

Does this individual confine his attention to a single (now adult) young woman, or is he inappropriately attentive to underage students generally?

Which is another way of asking if the problem has solved itself now that the man is in a stable relationship with a consenting adult.

Katherine
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:11 PM   #11
Michael Hackett
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

If the young woman in question was of the age of consent, then the conduct, however distasteful to me personally, was probably lawful.

ON THE OTHER HAND, if she was underage and their relationship was anything other than platonic, then we are discussing criminal and predatory behavior in almost any culture or jurisdiction. If that was the situation (and Angry Father isn't clear on this), his current relationship is irrelevant to his future behavior. These guys are on the hunt and stay on the hunt until they are stopped. Many, if not most, sexual predators I've dealt with over the years were in significant relationships and still continued to seek out victims. Allowing such an individual to continue training and teaching speaks volumes about that dojo and its' leadership.

Since Angry Father hasn't been entirely clear, I won't throw stones, but this situation has alerted my Spider Sense.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 03-19-2012, 01:25 AM   #12
Hanna B
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

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he is still practicing Aikido while I am not. My older daughter now entering her teenage asked me when she could join Aikido; my face fell. This is killing me; I love the art, but the culture that accepts and enables this repels me. What would you do?
You are no longer doing aikido, it seems. If you still love aikido maybe it's time for you to find another dojo and/or suggest another dojo for your daughter.
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:05 AM   #13
philipsmith
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
If the young woman in question was of the age of consent, then the conduct, however distasteful to me personally, was probably lawful.

ON THE OTHER HAND, if she was underage and their relationship was anything other than platonic, then we are discussing criminal and predatory behavior in almost any culture or jurisdiction. If that was the situation (and Angry Father isn't clear on this), his current relationship is irrelevant to his future behavior. These guys are on the hunt and stay on the hunt until they are stopped. Many, if not most, sexual predators I've dealt with over the years were in significant relationships and still continued to seek out victims. Allowing such an individual to continue training and teaching speaks volumes about that dojo and its' leadership.

Since Angry Father hasn't been entirely clear, I won't throw stones, but this situation has alerted my Spider Sense.
Utterly agree

one other thing might be an issue. Even if the original relationship was platonic was the girl "groomed" to enter into a relationship when it was legal? I have seen this happen both in Aikido and my professional life in higher education.

On the other hand if the girl was an "old" teenager (19 or so) althogh the situation may be distatsteful to the OP this may just be acase of mutual attraction. My daughters partner is 10 years older than her, and one of my best friends wives (who he met through Aikido) is 20 years younger than him.

All situations are different
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:43 AM   #14
Amir Krause
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

As a father of small girls (about 4 yrs old), Ido realize your reasons for concern, but I am not sure the of the nature of the situation. It seems to me, neither are you.

There are two possibilities here:
* The innocent one: He & She were attracted to eachother despite the age difference, both waited until she came of age. Nothing could have affected the relationship in the dojo or outside of it, and it has nothing to do with Aikido. Their relationship was "meant to be" regrdless of your prejustice about it, and would likly continue until he dies of old age.
And, most important, he is not looking for a younger replacement of her. Further, if the relationship breaks he may find anyone else (young or old).

* The predatory one: He is a predator, who found some young victim who enjoyed his attention, but he keeps looking and will not be satisified.

Another question to be asked here, is why did you not interfere while she was younger? If you thought you shouldn't, why do you think others should have (including the dojo cho)? Are you sure the dojo-cho did not look into this and got convinced it is the first type?

Aikido community is not safer inherently than any other, you can still have adults of mixed sex and age mingling and befriending each other. Few might be predators, others may be just looking for a soul mate without limits. It is the responsibility of all members of the community to stop the predators, regardless of rank.

Amir
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Old 03-19-2012, 11:52 AM   #15
"angry_father"
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

the age difference is more like 30 years. Maybe you are right, It is none of my business, I did nothing then because I did not know what to do. I left the dojo altogether; it has been years now; it hurt I helped build that place; I put a piece of my life in that school. Both people joined years later than I. I saw them together casually, out of class, recently, and it made me angry again, but I see that the "love" will be brought in as a justificaition. I am not going to speculate on what else goes on in their lives, as I see this, I am not going to be comfortable with any situation in which such difference in power exists. The dojo cho did not see fit to constrain the man , he must have concluded it is love.
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:38 PM   #16
Michael Hackett
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

So, Angry Father, which was it? Was the young woman under the age of consent at the time or not? It makes a difference.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:58 PM   #17
Marc Abrams
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

Angry Father:

Nobody is saying that the past was appropriate as much as nobody was saying that this conduct is acceptable within Aikido as a martial art. Why are you allowing that one incident to so govern how you would like to respond to your daughter's request to try Aikido?

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-19-2012, 01:59 PM   #18
kewms
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

If you are not comfortable at a dojo, you shouldn't train there and shouldn't encourage your daughter to do so. That's independent of the objective reality of the situation. Only you can decide whether you are comfortable allowing your daughter to be around these people.

But there are lots of other dojos. It's one thing to say "this dojo is wrong for me," quite another to abandon the art altogether.

Katherine
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:17 PM   #19
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

A slight segue - Aikido I think has definite tendency to operate as a charasmatic group (sometimes called cult). All of the major tick boxes can be there
- a clear hierarchy with absolute power
- magical mystical power you can only get from one source
- absence of external controls
- clear boundaries of who is in and who is out
- presumption that demonstrable expertise translates to character and expertise in other areas

All that stops this from running away is the head of the dojo. I have seen the tendencies in quite a few dojos I've been in. It works, people are looking for direction and meaning and an infallible teacher can be seen to have it all. Rightly or wrongly students can beg for it and support it in their behaviours and Aikido as 'the way of harmony' attracts those interested in becoming whole and easy for instructors to be 'intoxicated' by it as well. When power comes to those stepping into authority and such a structure exists the results can be unpredictable. Abraham Lincoln says it best “Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.”

Sometimes its almost impossible to do anything other than walk away, so sympathies with Angry father and similar. Here is a quote form a treatment on the subject - its the only one on hand…sorry. " ..In such groups leaders can make demands on followers that are seen as abusive by outsiders,... the group operates as a close knit social system and its activities are generally only carried with other members of the group. ...Boundary control is exercised by the group and compliance with group norms is assured by members....A clear difference between members and non-members is exercised"  (Cults, Faith Healing and Coercion, M. Galanter, Oxford university Press 1989). 

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
ph 0413 001 844, 1593 Logan Rd, Mt.Gravatt, Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
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Old 03-19-2012, 07:49 PM   #20
lbb
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
A slight segue - Aikido I think has definite tendency to operate as a charasmatic group (sometimes called cult). All of the major tick boxes can be there
- a clear hierarchy with absolute power
Absolute power, how? What's to stop you from walking out?

I understand how cults work. But in order for a cult to have power, you have to buy into the idea that the cult is the sole avenue to something that you absolutely have to have. Do you have any evidence that such is true for the majority of aikido practitioners?
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Old 03-19-2012, 07:59 PM   #21
Janet Rosen
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Absolute power, how? What's to stop you from walking out?

I understand how cults work. But in order for a cult to have power, you have to buy into the idea that the cult is the sole avenue to something that you absolutely have to have. Do you have any evidence that such is true for the majority of aikido practitioners?
In 16 years training in a variety of styles I have been aware of one dojo - not one I was a member of - that I would consider a cult in that people allowed the dojocho to make decisions over things outside of their on the mat training. That's one out of a whole lotta dojos I"ve visited, trained at seminars w/ folks from, etc.

Janet Rosen
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:35 PM   #22
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

Cult is a strong word, probably i should have softened it a bit as we tend to think of extreme examples, rather than the subtleties we might see in different dojo.

I wouldn't say aikido are cult members, though one persons cult is anothers mainstream religion. After all we do wear funny clothes, bow to some dead guy who did this amazing stuff we can aspire to yet never be able to do ourselves and only do authentically through one of his disciples.

Walking away I think depends on the buy-in and history is replete with sad stories and the levers applied at the boundary by the group.

Anecdotally I suspect for dojos with a strong charismatic/cult element that there seems to be a tendency to keep away from the aikido fraternity.

Where there are unusual cultural norms..perhaps in the case of this thread...i suspect there is something to it

best,
dan

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:50 PM   #23
Aikibu
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
In 16 years training in a variety of styles I have been aware of one dojo - not one I was a member of - that I would consider a cult in that people allowed the dojocho to make decisions over things outside of their on the mat training. That's one out of a whole lotta dojos I"ve visited, trained at seminars w/ folks from, etc.
Word.. Thanks Janet. This is America and here...Most Aikido "Cult" pretenders go out of business PDQ. The last one I saw had to move back overseas because his students all quit over his BS and like all good cult leaders he announced he was just too good for them and split.

Aikido is about making connections...even some that I may not "approve" of (Which to date I can count on the fingers of one hand.)...Again in America Sexual Harassment is very clearly defined from both a legal and a social standpoint and most (including young) woman are capable of drawing the line without help.

My personal life and what I do off the mat is none of my Sensei's business However since I may be the only example someone ever sees of Aikido.. I try to be mindful "off the mat".

William Hazen
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:48 AM   #24
"Ayu"
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

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Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
So everything turned out nice in the end, apart from loss of hair and figure, lack of beauty, and your own disapproval.
I guess I'm out of fashion in my attitude ... oops, my wife is twelve years younger than I am! Aargh.

Your story seems to have only a tiny connection to Aikido, it could as well have been badminton.
I loved your response!
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:08 AM   #25
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Re: What would you do? (Older male teacher with young female student)

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the age difference is more like 30 years. Maybe you are right, It is none of my business, I did nothing then because I did not know what to do. I left the dojo altogether; it has been years now; it hurt I helped build that place; I put a piece of my life in that school. Both people joined years later than I. I saw them together casually, out of class, recently, and it made me angry again, but I see that the "love" will be brought in as a justificaition. I am not going to speculate on what else goes on in their lives, as I see this, I am not going to be comfortable with any situation in which such difference in power exists. The dojo cho did not see fit to constrain the man , he must have concluded it is love.
What a hypocrite!
YOU allowed to happen this situation and now you blame everyone around (instructor, dojo and entire art of aikido!!).

You are part of society, and you have the rights and Responsibilities. "I did not know what to do' - no kidding? How about asking first police officer on the street - is that too complicated?
It is entirely your fault, you was not up to this situation, don't try to justify your cowardice by blaming aikido now.

Nagababa

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