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Old 03-15-2012, 09:18 AM   #26
sakumeikan
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
That's not what he said. Reread what you quoted.
Dear mary,
Thanks for the blog.As you say Dan does not say that.I did misread Dans comment. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 03-15-2012, 09:29 AM   #27
sakumeikan
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I've never seen Aiki in Aikido weapon work, so I don't know what to call it other than aikido weapons.

Since it seems to match aikido movement of ___________________flavor of any group, there's really nothing to discuss ...its just a bunch of people having fun....until the mid dan and kyu ranked people start to once again " imagine" they're doing real weapons, or that what they're doing is aiki.
Dan
Dear Dan ,
If it is not too much trouble may I ask you who have you seen doing Aiki ken /Aiki Jo/Tanto work?As it happens I do not think that serious aikidoka perceive Aikido [body art /weapons/ Batto ho/ Za Zen as fun. Neither do they imagine they are twirling 'real ' weapons as such.In Batto Ho as it happens the use of a live blade is permitted. Naturally if one uses a katana one cannot adopt a flippant approach to using a live blade.Not only would you injure yourself , you may well injure someone else if you did not have a serious attitude /safety in mind.Cheers, Joe.
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Old 03-16-2012, 04:52 AM   #28
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Hi Paulina and Phi
I believe in our western hemissphere we tend to rely too much on our individual personalities and personal gain when we practise.
I prefer the Japanese approach where students are not allowed to ask too many questions.. For a westener this is a huge challenge, Iīve been there, and I have to admit it changed my concepts of learning and teaching considerably, so no, I donīt think it is merely a progression of learning because even the most
advanced students fall from grace when they place too much trust in their personal achievements and as a consequence become slacking.
Funny.. I am very far from agreeing with you.

Of course there is a risk that students can become sloppy, but I would think the same could happen for those who are being taught a specific way to do things in a very rigid system since they come to rely on the system rather than on their own common sense and feelings.

I think it's kind of like learning a language. You can have a CD or book with set frases that you practice over and over until you know them all by heart. Copying them to down to even the tiniest detail like intonation, pauses etc. You are just not speaking the language untill you begin to break the patterns and use the words in new constellations in order to mediate exactly the nuances that you want to express.

I've been to Japan a few times as well, and I belive I've met a few senseis (and shihans) who expect and prefer for their students to develop their own aikido by being critical - in the most polite and constructive manner of course - so as to add to the continous development of the art. So.. please don't cut all japanese teachning along the same ruler.

There is of course a time to ask questions and a time to shut up and practice. But in my book that is not the same as disbanding all creative and challenging thought all together.

It's all about finding the right balance I guess

Great weekend to all

JJ

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 03-16-2012, 05:38 AM   #29
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Ai symbol Re: Weapons in Aikido

Some of you seem to wonder fundamentally about using weapons in Aikido ...

There are considerable differences in practice among the different Aikido schools and especially with Aikido weapons. Don't want to judge about them nor enter into details or possible reasons, although it might be interesting to understand.

Aiki or not Aiki .... that was a question. What about Ki no musubi ? Connect your Ki with the Ki of you partner. You can do that with Aiki weapons, no doubt.

US Aikidoka, who would like to convince themselves about this, get an occasion to watch an Aikidoka practising Jo and Bokken with Aiki this summer in Orange County, California (June 28th through July 1st 2012). André Cognard Shihan is an expert for Aikiken and Aikijo of the school of Hirokazu Kobayashi Shihan from Osaka. More about this seminar on http://www.usa-seminar-kakkhh.com/. The seminar is open to everyone, all affiliations, levels, and juniors are welcome.

A warning for lower grades in Aikido: never expect energy in a pure Kihon, don't confuse it with an application form. The latter you may try only if you have mastered the Kihon.

regards, Christine
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:18 AM   #30
lars beyer
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Jørgen Jakob Friis wrote: View Post
Funny.. I am very far from agreeing with you.

Of course there is a risk that students can become sloppy, but I would think the same could happen for those who are being taught a specific way to do things in a very rigid system since they come to rely on the system rather than on their own common sense and feelings.

I think it's kind of like learning a language. You can have a CD or book with set frases that you practice over and over until you know them all by heart. Copying them to down to even the tiniest detail like intonation, pauses etc. You are just not speaking the language untill you begin to break the patterns and use the words in new constellations in order to mediate exactly the nuances that you want to express.

I've been to Japan a few times as well, and I belive I've met a few senseis (and shihans) who expect and prefer for their students to develop their own aikido by being critical - in the most polite and constructive manner of course - so as to add to the continous development of the art. So.. please don't cut all japanese teachning along the same ruler.

There is of course a time to ask questions and a time to shut up and practice. But in my book that is not the same as disbanding all creative and challenging thought all together.

It's all about finding the right balance I guess

Great weekend to all

JJ
Itīs true what you say, I shouldnīt be cutting all japanese along the same ruler, but in order to make my statement clear I did.. this is the price of rhetorics sometimes..

I donīt believe creativity lies in learning aikido, but in the way I implement it in my life outside the dojo.
Maybe itīs because I am a creative person with many different activites, so for me Aikido is more about structure, form, technique, adapting and learning than expressing my creativity in the dojo.
Well, when I teach Aikido I express my creativity because I have to adapt to the circumstances
instantaneously, this is why teaching is good for your aikido I feel.

For me creativity relies on 95% hard work and 5% actually inventing something myself- that is if I can actually invent something that is truly my own.. How many people can actually claim that what they think and what they do and say is not based on someone elses ideas ?
The thing that makes my creativity unique is the way I do it, but that wont help me learn anything.
We only learn from trial and error, success in terms of being creative is a dead end, it wont teach you anything, only make you rely on what you allready know.

Regards
Lars
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Old 03-16-2012, 12:13 PM   #31
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Christine Schmidt wrote: View Post
Connect your Ki with the Ki of you partner. You can do that with Aiki weapons, no doubt.
I have to ask, what possible benefit is there training to "connect (harmonize) my ki with that of my partner (opponent)" in weapons? Perhaps I'm being too simplistic, but the way I see it, an attacker with a sword would never want to "harmonize" their ki with me or create/maintain that sort of connection -- they simply want to defeat me -- so what are the benefits of both partners training to harmonize their ki? I think a better training paradigm is to have one partner deliver a realistic attack and have the other partner deal with it using his/her ki (and aiki) to control or defeat the attack.
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:03 PM   #32
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

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Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
I have to ask, what possible benefit is there training to "connect (harmonize) my ki with that of my partner (opponent)" in weapons? Perhaps I'm being too simplistic, but the way I see it, an attacker with a sword would never want to "harmonize" their ki with me or create/maintain that sort of connection -- they simply want to defeat me -- so what are the benefits of both partners training to harmonize their ki? I think a better training paradigm is to have one partner deliver a realistic attack and have the other partner deal with it using his/her ki (and aiki) to control or defeat the attack.
I wasn't going to say anything, but "connect (harmonize) my ki with that of my partner (opponent)" is, in weapons and in all Aikido practice, one of the most fundamental errors that people have in conventional Aikido, IMO.

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-16-2012, 06:07 PM   #33
sakumeikan
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
I have to ask, what possible benefit is there training to "connect (harmonize) my ki with that of my partner (opponent)" in weapons? Perhaps I'm being too simplistic, but the way I see it, an attacker with a sword would never want to "harmonize" their ki with me or create/maintain that sort of connection -- they simply want to defeat me -- so what are the benefits of both partners training to harmonize their ki? I think a better training paradigm is to have one partner deliver a realistic attack and have the other partner deal with it using his/her ki (and aiki) to control or defeat the attack.
Dear Gerardo,
Blending with your partner is not just a question of him attacking you then you counter with an attack . The object of blending is to be able to adjust /.neutralise the effect of any attack whether you are acting as uke or as tori.In the practice of Sansho 1/2/[Jo work , a set of paired exercises] [ for example ]the relationship between both parties change as the movements are practiced..There is a point where an attack by uke is neutralized by tori resulting in a counter attack by tori, which in turn is neutralized by uke etc.Each person has to absorb the energy from the attack of the other , and then in the role of the attacker each of the persons involved has to extend ones energy.Thus there is a flow not unlike a wave motion in a sense.A sense of attack -defend -attack as it were from both parties each responding to the actions of the other.
Both parties have the opportunity to move/train their centres, stimulate their bodies ie conditioning , maintain connection and improve their awareness.I also include weapons training places a lot of emphasis on maai.I see weapons training as a method of training ones body, mind and spirit.Its a challenge for myself.As I am quite elderly I have to maintain as far as possible a degree of flexibility.At present I am somewhat limited here due to the effects of a serious car crash.My goal at the moment is to try and recover from the accident.I find weapons training a very useful tool.
I do not use weapons training to dominate or try to be a macho man.If indeed there is an enemy to be defeated the enemy is myself.Before I can hope to control others I hope I can control myself.This is the bigger battle. Cheers, Joe
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Old 03-16-2012, 06:16 PM   #34
Robert Cowham
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I wasn't going to say anything, but "connect (harmonize) my ki with that of my partner (opponent)" is, in weapons and in all Aikido practice, one of the most fundamental errors that people have in conventional Aikido, IMO.
In my understanding it is more about "connect" than "harmonize". When I have worked with seniors at the Shiseikan, and in particular Inaba sensei, at any stage I feel he is "in control" of our encounter or at the very least connected with me and knows viscerally what is happening in my body/mind - indeed I sometimes have the impression he has a force field that encompasses everyone on the mat!

Certainly things to aspire to, and maybe I am starting to get an inkling of what it is about - my timing has certainly improved recently...
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Old 03-16-2012, 06:26 PM   #35
Chris Li
 
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Robert Cowham wrote: View Post
In my understanding it is more about "connect" than "harmonize". When I have worked with seniors at the Shiseikan, and in particular Inaba sensei, at any stage I feel he is "in control" of our encounter or at the very least connected with me and knows viscerally what is happening in my body/mind - indeed I sometimes have the impression he has a force field that encompasses everyone on the mat!

Certainly things to aspire to, and maybe I am starting to get an inkling of what it is about - my timing has certainly improved recently...
At the risk of opening a giant can of worms - I would say that (IMO) it's neither connecting nor harmonizing, nor much else involving what the other person is doing - including timing.

As I said, a can of worms....

Here's a relevant quote from Koichi Tohei, from "Ki no Kakuritsu" ("The Establishment of Ki").

Quote:
二代道主は、合氣道を「人の気に合わせるの道」と解釈していた。しかし私にしてみれば、合氣道とは「心身を統一して天地と一体になる。すなわち天地の気に合わす道」なので ある。

The second Doshu interpreted Aikido as "the Way of fitting in with another person's Ki". However, it seems to me that Aikido is "Uniting body and mind and becoming one with heaven and earth. Specifically, the Way of fitting together the Ki of heaven and earth.".
Tohei's thinking is getting close to what I'm talking about.

In the section containing the quote above he was discussing his departure from the Aikikai, and his fundamental differences with Kisshomaru about what Aikido involves.

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-16-2012, 08:44 PM   #36
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Most Japanese martial arts evolved from a weapons based arts into taijutsu. As opposed to chinese martial arts which have arts that were completely built from the ground zero as weapon less arts.

Aikido is no different, so it makes a lot of sense to understand your roots.

Having said that, you don't need to be the greatest swords smith on earth to be a good swordsman. So...

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 03-17-2012, 02:18 AM   #37
lars beyer
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
At the risk of opening a giant can of worms - I would say that (IMO) it's neither connecting nor harmonizing, nor much else involving what the other person is doing - including timing.

As I said, a can of worms....

Here's a relevant quote from Koichi Tohei, from "Ki no Kakuritsu" ("The Establishment of Ki").

Tohei's thinking is getting close to what I'm talking about.

In the section containing the quote above he was discussing his departure from the Aikikai, and his fundamental differences with Kisshomaru about what Aikido involves.

Best,

Chris
Hi Christopher, welcome to my thread
I love worms, so please show them to me, maybe itīs a specimen I donīt know.. And maybe explain to me what this has go to do with the title of this thread, who is allready drifting off in a different direction than intended and now definetely is ready for the big padlock
Peace- (it means behave correctly in my homecountry)
Lars
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Old 03-17-2012, 02:46 AM   #38
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Most Japanese martial arts evolved from a weapons based arts into taijutsu. As opposed to chinese martial arts which have arts that were completely built from the ground zero as weapon less arts.

Aikido is no different, so it makes a lot of sense to understand your roots.

Having said that, you don't need to be the greatest swords smith on earth to be a good swordsman. So...
Hi Ahmad, thanks for your comment
I would say it like this: You donīt need to be the best swordsman on earth to be a good Aikidoka but it helps to understand the roots of Aikido- so if this is what you mean Ahmad I agre totally with you.

In "my" system of aikido the sword or aikiken is not meant to be a "cutting device" but a fairly heavy woodenstick with which to practise riai, the harmony of form, that is the connection between weapons practise and taijutsu. We also use it for other Aikido related partner excersizes as well as the Aikijo but I wont get into this here.
This is unique to Aikido I believe and as such there is no other Martial art where this is a formal goal
of weapons training- at least I have not yet seen it, but offcourse there are many things I have yet to see so please everybody enlighten me if you can.

I feel like studying more traditional japanese swordwork now, not because I think Aikiken and Aikijo
is not enough, on the contrary I feel I just started that.. but I feel like diving into other areas of japanese sword culture to better understand the significance of aikido weapons and weapons as a cultural phenomenom.

Peace
Lars
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Old 03-17-2012, 02:55 AM   #39
Chris Li
 
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Hi Christopher, welcome to my thread
I love worms, so please show them to me, maybe itīs a specimen I donīt know.. And maybe explain to me what this has go to do with the title of this thread, who is allready drifting off in a different direction than intended and now definetely is ready for the big padlock
Peace- (it means behave correctly in my homecountry)
Lars
Well, threads don't belong to anybody in particular, and thread drift is the norm rather than the exception.

Anyway, it was in response to a comment made in a post by Christine Schmidt (via Gerardo Torres), and the post that I was commenting on was directly related to the utility of weapons practice vis-a-vis Aiki.

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-17-2012, 03:31 AM   #40
lars beyer
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, threads don't belong to anybody in particular, and thread drift is the norm rather than the exception.

Anyway, it was in response to a comment made in a post by Christine Schmidt (via Gerardo Torres), and the post that I was commenting on was directly related to the utility of weapons practice vis-a-vis Aiki.

Best,

Chris
Hi chriss, thanks for your reply, I really appreciate that people want to discuss this topic I have raised,
at least it makes me happy to feel that people spent a little time reading my question because I guess I am only human in this sence.
I donīt want to shut you up or anything, and I think if you have some good things to share concerning Tohei sensei and his weapons practise and teaching I would love to hear it as well as a lot of other
Aikidoka I believe.

Itīs true that noone owes this thread (even I think Aikiweb does to some degree- but not the intellectual copyright I guess, but that is another discussion alltogether and quite interresting.)

You can also pm me and tell me about your can of worms, because it sounds interresting, but maybe you should start your own thread so as to avoid the worms crawling allover the place ( this I meant as a joke, Iīm merely kiding

Peace
Lars
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:49 AM   #41
Robert Cowham
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Hi Chris

I am also interested in exploring any worms you care to bring out into the open

Could be educational.

Robert
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Old 03-17-2012, 10:51 AM   #42
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

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Robert Cowham wrote: View Post
Hi Chris

I am also interested in exploring any worms you care to bring out into the open

Could be educational.

Robert
Well - I already laid it out, in essence, in the Tohei quote. The basic difference in the conception of Aiki as something that occurs between two people (as Tohei said that Kisshomaru believed), or as something that occurs wholly within yourself.

The difference is, IMO, very profound, and at the root of many of the problems in conventional Aikido today - but maybe it deserves a separate thread...

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-17-2012, 01:30 PM   #43
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well - I already laid it out, in essence, in the Tohei quote. The basic difference in the conception of Aiki as something that occurs between two people (as Tohei said that Kisshomaru believed), or as something that occurs wholly within yourself.

The difference is, IMO, very profound, and at the root of many of the problems in conventional Aikido today - but maybe it deserves a separate thread...

Best,

Chris
I look forward to read your thread

Best,
Lars
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Old 03-17-2012, 02:58 PM   #44
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
I look forward to read your thread

Best,
Lars
No thread (not that I don't start threads - after a quick search I see that I've already started 41 threads), but I may get to it eventually in my blog.

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-19-2012, 10:16 AM   #45
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
...At least do some research on the subject matter....
Oh dear....too funny.
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:45 AM   #46
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

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Dale Horton wrote: View Post
Oh dear....too funny.
Dear Dale,
Glad you find my comment funny.Makes a change from harbingers of doom , dont you think?Joe.
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Old 03-19-2012, 11:00 AM   #47
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

"Aikido is a martial art. No matter how good one is in judo, if he or she takes a kendo sword and looses against a student, he or she is not a Budoka, but a Judoka. Even as number one in Japan in kendo, if he or she puts on a judogi and is thrown by a student, he or she is a Kendoka and not a Budoka. O'Sensei (The Founder) said, "This is not good."
Everything is a whole, an entirety. That is why in aikido, even if the principle of the sword is formative, all the movements in the body techniques, as well as in the weapons techniques, are entirely similar. That is why weapon techniques are indispensable in aikido. They are a part of it. Some people say aikido is a collection of techniques, but that is not true. How shall I put it? Each of them is contained in the whole. No matter which of the three you take out, bokken, jo, or taijutsu, alone it is not complete aikido. That is why weapons are an especially important part of aikido."
-Morihiro Saito Sensei
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:15 PM   #48
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Dale,
Glad you find my comment funny.Makes a change from harbingers of doom , dont you think?Joe.
It was the presumptuous nature of the comment that made me chuckle. I do believe Dan may know a thing or two...
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:19 PM   #49
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

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Dale Horton wrote: View Post
It was the presumptuous nature of the comment that made me chuckle. I do believe Dan may know a thing or two...
Dear Dale,
Mr Harden may well know a thing or two , but do we know if what he knows includes Aikido weaponry?You may presume he knows a great deal in this area., I may not share your viewpoint.May I also confirm that your above comment makes me chuckle?Perhaps we should get our act together ? We might be the new Martin and Lewis/Bob Hope & Bing Crosby.Maybe even the Muppets.
Cheers, Joe
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:45 PM   #50
Aikibu
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Re: Weapons in Aikido

in my experience All of our Aikido Practice is "weapons" practice. It does not matter if you have a weapon or not. Your Bokken, Jo, or Katana is just an extension of your arm... They are not separate... They are completely integrated into every Aikido Technique. What I can also say based on my experience is that you can tell right away who practices this way and who does not and those who do... usually have a better understanding of "how" Aikido works.

William Hazen
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