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Old 03-13-2012, 01:56 PM   #1876
notdrock
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Simple answer: understand the difference between pre-emptive fighting and spontaneous fighting. Then you'll have your answer.

FYI I'd be very careful about relying on ring-based or mat-based arts for survival. They're more for athletic entertainment than killing or preventing being killed. Next time someone runs at you with a machete and actually wholeheartedly wants to chop you into extra chunky soup, you let me know a) how you changed psychologically and b) what happened when you tried to "go to ground".

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Old 03-13-2012, 02:06 PM   #1877
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Luke Hobbs wrote: View Post
Next time someone runs at you with a machete and actually wholeheartedly wants to chop you into extra chunky soup, you let me know a) how you changed psychologically and b) what happened when you tried to "go to ground".

Happened to you? I mean, have you been attacked IRL by someone wielding a blade trying to kill you?

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Old 03-13-2012, 02:18 PM   #1878
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I haven't been chased by a machete, but I have trained to defend against circus ponies and a few other scenarios.

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Old 03-13-2012, 02:22 PM   #1879
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I haven't been chased by a machete, but I have trained to defend against circus ponies and a few other scenarios.
BS. Everybody knows there is no defense against circus ponies.

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Old 03-13-2012, 02:22 PM   #1880
Marc Abrams
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I haven't been chased by a machete, but I have trained to defend against circus ponies and a few other scenarios.
Kevin was so skilled in that area, that he was the only person I know who went full speed and missed every single landmine that the ponies left behind them.......

Marc Abrams

ps- Whatever you do, don't ask him about the ninja gerbils......
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Old 03-13-2012, 02:23 PM   #1881
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Oh, to add a serious comment. You don't go to the ground cause you want to, you go there because that is where you end up. It is but one aspect of fighting, the one where you fail. The point is when someone closes distance and attacks and is jacking your OODA loop all up, things like falling down tend to happen.

Having the skills to recover from this are important. Getting to your feet is very important. Guys that train in grappling systems...contrary to aiki-land belief can actually discern reality from sport in applying their KSAs.

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Old 03-13-2012, 02:24 PM   #1882
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Ninja gerbils....now that is just so wrong.

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Old 03-13-2012, 02:31 PM   #1883
chillzATL
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Happened to you? I mean, have you been attacked IRL by someone wielding a blade trying to kill you?
one of the cops in our dojo was telling us a story just a few weeks ago about another officer getting called to a disturbance in his (the guy telling the story) own neighborhood. The officer shows up, guy walks out of his house weilding a katana and proceeded to charge the officer. He put him down (survived) but man, there are crazies on every corner these days.
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Old 03-13-2012, 05:29 PM   #1884
gregstec
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
one of the cops in our dojo was telling us a story just a few weeks ago about another officer getting called to a disturbance in his (the guy telling the story) own neighborhood. The officer shows up, guy walks out of his house weilding a katana and proceeded to charge the officer. He put him down (survived) but man, there are crazies on every corner these days.
He did not shoot? That is certainly a 'Shoot' decision in a Shoot? no Shoot? situation.

Greg
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Old 03-14-2012, 12:14 AM   #1885
Alic
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Phi, Shomen uchi is a very, very specific strike, as is all the other ones (yokomen uchi, jodan zuki, etc). They're for training purposes and are simulated attacks. In no way are these karate's seiken zuki or shuto uke. If you got a bottle in your hand, or a hammerfist, that's no longer a kihon waza's initiating strike, but a full on attack that has to be dealt with differently.

Graham, I agree that the shomen uchi is a sword cut, but it's with the tegatana, and you know how effective those are dispatching folks to the other side of the river.

I think the main problem you guys are having with what I'm saying is that you think a shomen uchi is an attack. No, it's not, but that's just definitions. The important thing to note is that you don't use something like this as an actual attack, in a battle, because as an Aikidoka, if you extend yourself out of your "box" where you are strongest in (centre power area), then you become uke instead of nage (shite). You can easily see the extension of body in yokomen uchi, but the same holds for other forms of simulated strikes. Now, you can certainly use things similar to the shomen uchi by utilizing your tegatana, but the strike will be modified to work effectively without putting yourself at a disadvantage via opening yourself to attacks or kuzushi. This commonly occurs during a technique, in close range, rather than as the initiating strike.

The thing about strikes like shomen uchi, yokomen uchi, etc., is that they are done on purpose to allow for techniques to be used on them. They simulate not the speed nor power, but the line of attack/flow that other arts would use. This allows for us to train in recieving and countering the strikes. But as uke, you need to cooperate with nage in completing the technique, so one way to do this without being totally non-resistant is to offer a small opening for the technique to take hold, either as an extension of the body, or a small imperfection in the stance, allowing for nage to apply blocks, evasions, atemi, or kuzushi.

But as I've said before, I'm no Shihan, so everything I said can be disregarded by others of higher credibility at will. I've posted it just as a food for thought or a launching pad for discussion. Rather than talking about the usual lacking-in-experience comment about how Aikido is useless for self-defense (the Kidotai would like to disagree with you, as are your friendly local senshusei grads), let's discussion about something that interests us and educates others (or at least show them how much they don't know about Aikido )

Last edited by Alic : 03-14-2012 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 03-14-2012, 05:37 AM   #1886
phitruong
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Alic Xie wrote: View Post
Shomen uchi is a very, very specific strike, as is all the other ones (yokomen uchi, jodan zuki, etc). They're for training purposes and are simulated attacks. In no way are these karate's seiken zuki or shuto uke. If you got a bottle in your hand, or a hammerfist, that's no longer a kihon waza's initiating strike, but a full on attack that has to be dealt with differently.
this is where you and i differ. to me, shomen uchi whether with a hand, knife, sword, bottle, axe, they are all the same. no different to me. they still aim for my head straight on down.

Quote:
I think the main problem you guys are having with what I'm saying is that you think a shomen uchi is an attack. No, it's not, but that's just definitions. The important thing to note is that you don't use something like this as an actual attack, in a battle, because as an Aikidoka, if you extend yourself out of your "box" where you are strongest in (centre power area), then you become uke instead of nage (shite).
i do not know how you train in striking, but for me, i can strike you with any number of attacks and won't over extend or lose my balance. if you practice with me, i can guarantee you that my shomen uchi is an attack. matter of fact, we trained with striking pads regularly to make sure folks feel the strike and the level of power driving behind it.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:21 AM   #1887
dalen7
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i can guarantee you that my shomen uchi is an attack. matter of fact, we trained with striking pads regularly to make sure folks feel the strike and the level of power driving behind it.
Cool that your going all out with the Shomen attacks using pads, etc.

However... what happens when a trained striker or even grappler/wrestler comes up and you dont get a chance to execute Shomen - better yet, is there ever a chance in this scenario to use Shomen?

Only way to know is try it out with a trained grappler/wrestler and/or Thai Boxer and post it on youtube.
[Im curious and would love to see it 'live']

Again I like taking the Aikido moves to the max within that framework, but there is a lot that gets lost once the door opens up.

Peace

Dalen

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:21 AM   #1888
chillzATL
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
He did not shoot? That is certainly a 'Shoot' decision in a Shoot? no Shoot? situation.

Greg
oh no, he did and the guy survived. It's just one of those things in aikido that I've heard "when is someone ever going to come at me with a sword"... crazy can happen anywhere!
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Old 03-14-2012, 08:00 AM   #1889
phitruong
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
However... what happens when a trained striker or even grappler/wrestler comes up and you dont get a chance to execute Shomen - better yet, is there ever a chance in this scenario to use Shomen?
Dalen
shomen isn't the only thing in my tool box. years ago i sparred with a Taewondo guy, Olympic caliber. He could throw an axe kick, which is pretty like a shomen uchi but with the feet, faster than i could throw a jab. he was lightning on feet. he knocked me and pretty much everyone on his/her ass with that kick. in kaitennage, have you thought of the hand on top of the head could be a shomen strike to the back of the neck? or elbow comes up the center line follow with a hammer fist comes down the same line. then there is the flying knee from muay thai to the face. oh did i mention that i belong to the anything-goes school of martial arts?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 03-14-2012, 08:46 AM   #1890
gregstec
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
oh no, he did and the guy survived. It's just one of those things in aikido that I've heard "when is someone ever going to come at me with a sword"... crazy can happen anywhere!
OK, that makes more sense - it just sounded like he took him down by hand, which really would have been crazy to try

Greg
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:31 AM   #1891
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Now that I have an iPad, I see how shomen might be useful if I need to use the edge of my iPad as a weapon.

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Old 03-15-2012, 07:46 AM   #1892
Marc Abrams
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Now that I have an iPad, I see how shomen might be useful if I need to use the edge of my iPad as a weapon.
Kevin:

Is your iPad Steven Seagal approved?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbRMqd3n3-o



Marc Abrams
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Old 03-15-2012, 08:59 AM   #1893
phitruong
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Now that I have an iPad, I see how shomen might be useful if I need to use the edge of my iPad as a weapon.
just saw advertisement of aikido 3D for iPad. you could just load up the app and show your attacker(s) the techniques that you are planning to do on them. that would scare them off right there and then. don't forget to use your Glock as the pointer.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 03-15-2012, 09:35 AM   #1894
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
just saw advertisement of aikido 3D for iPad. you could just load up the app and show your attacker(s) the techniques that you are planning to do on them. that would scare them off right there and then. don't forget to use your Glock as the pointer.
The all new Glock lazer-pointer! For all your presentation needs! Enter your sales meeting with renewed confidence as people suddenly see things your way with the kind of clarity only a Glock product can produce!

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-15-2012, 09:41 AM   #1895
Janet Rosen
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I had to set my Glock ahead an hour and it totally messed with everything this week.

Janet Rosen
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:11 PM   #1896
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
just saw advertisement of aikido 3D for iPad. you could just load up the app and show your attacker(s) the techniques that you are planning to do on them. that would scare them off right there and then. don't forget to use your Glock as the pointer.
http://www.fudebakudo.com/en/mobile.html


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Old 03-15-2012, 07:46 PM   #1897
matty_mojo911
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i do not know how you train in striking, but for me, i can strike you with any number of attacks and won't over extend or lose my balance. if you practice with me, i can guarantee you that my shomen uchi is an attack. matter of fact, we trained with striking pads regularly to make sure folks feel the strike and the level of power driving behind it.
I think the point has been missed, the person you have replied to has basicaly said that Shomen isn't really a strike that you would use.

shomen is a strike that you would use in the dojo, but if you get in a proper scrap there are 100 other strikes that are better. A shomen is a simple simulation of downwards energy, and is fine for that, you may even do this really, really hard - fine. But if I had to strike someone for real there are better things to do. Don't translate the dojo to the real world, to do so missleads the students. Uderstand the difference between the two and teach accordingly.
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Old 03-15-2012, 08:16 PM   #1898
Walter Martindale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I had to set my Glock ahead an hour and it totally messed with everything this week.
is that a "glockolate" bar? got too warm in the daylight and melted?

http://www.chocolateweapons.com/

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Old 03-15-2012, 09:01 PM   #1899
Janet Rosen
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
is that a "glockolate" bar? got too warm in the daylight and melted?

http://www.chocolateweapons.com/

Well I had to Luger around with me all day in my pocket, so yeah, it melted....

Janet Rosen
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:44 PM   #1900
jdostie
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Matt Morris wrote: View Post
I think the point has been missed, the person you have replied to has basicaly said that Shomen isn't really a strike that you would use.

shomen is a strike that you would use in the dojo, but if you get in a proper scrap there are 100 other strikes that are better. A shomen is a simple simulation of downwards energy, and is fine for that, you may even do this really, really hard - fine. But if I had to strike someone for real there are better things to do. Don't translate the dojo to the real world, to do so missleads the students. Uderstand the difference between the two and teach accordingly.
The most obvious shomen like strike is a beer bottle to the head in a barfight or something.

To say noone would choose a certain attack for reason a, b, or c assumes a certain orientation or experience of the attacker. To say 'this is not the best attack' for reason a, b, or c, might absolutely be valid, but it in no way indicates that the attack won't be used. $.02 from my perspective - which is worth about the same.
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