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Old 03-13-2012, 01:59 AM   #1
Lee Salzman
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Stress-testing structure

What sort of things do you guys and gals do to test structure under resistance, both static structure and dynamic/movement structure, to root out weakness that need to be worked on? For that matter, what sorts of stresses do you try to make your structure resilient against? And when doing some sort of pressure testing, what flaws do you typically look for?
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Old 03-13-2012, 04:44 AM   #2
dalen7
 
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Re: Stress-testing structure

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
What sort of things do you guys and gals do to test structure under resistance, both static structure and dynamic/movement structure, to root out weakness that need to be worked on? For that matter, what sorts of stresses do you try to make your structure resilient against? And when doing some sort of pressure testing, what flaws do you typically look for?
Take ikkyo for example... as Nage takes me [uke] down I try to roll out of the move and then pop up and 'surprisingly' put them in kotegaishi. When they get used to the roll out, but still dont know why they cant control I may not get K.G but I do have the distance unless they tried what Roy Dean showed with an armbar. [which they have not even thought of, which makes sense due to the training environment.]

With Shihonage its simple as well... if the elbow is pointed east/west instead of North by the head I just wont budge. Now its true they could apply kotegaeshi [wrist twist] which would affect my wrist and my elbow if they pulled it away from my body... a quick movement with that will definitely put someone out with their arm, so careful.

Otherwise they can go north with my arm and I still wont go, especially if they have not taken my center.
Thus they can only do kotegaishi [wrist twist] from the position they are in with my elbow north, and then with the pressure on the wrist I will go down.

Tsuki Jodan, etc. - well there is not much you can do there. If you were with a boxer who had mma gloves you still would not be able to execute an technique off a jab. Though its still fun to do Tsuki, it feels so successful. [Not saying never, but as I pointed out elsewhere it probably will be rokkyo if your lucky - different stance, entry, etc.]

With Kotegaishi Ura sometimes Nages arm is outside of Ukes and Uke may just not want to turn around like scripted and then you are playing with an arm.

Take the same arm and put Nages arm inside of Uke as you turn and you can either apply pressure to the arm with elbow, or better yet and what I love with Tsuki, is to basically take them down toward the ground as if you could transition into rokkyo, and then perhaps finish off stepping back and center to kotegaishi.

With speed they will have to do a high break fall for their own comfort level - or know what you are up to and go one step ahead of you.

With Iriminage, when Uke is supposed to swing around, etc [supposedly this works with speed and not static which makes it so awkward] I tend not to even like this version of the technique and prefer going in from behind and transitioning into a rear naked choke. [Was nice when our instructor allowed this and introduced this as a possibility.]

With Koshinage, just toss the person, though the entring can feel fake.
Typically we come in from ikkyo, simulate a kick the face, and then enter to throw.

A lot of the moves start getting funky as far as realism, say sumi otoshi, etc. as so much can happen in the process of Nage actually trying to execute the technique. Kubi Nage, neck throw, just seems dangerous to try freestyle, etc.

It would be cool to build up your techniques, add resistance, keep going back and forth stepping up the game, and then go freestyle where you both try to execute a technique etc that is not scripted but include a given range of techniques, etc.

The other thing is just to watch throughout your technique if the center is moved.
A lot of people enter shiohnage and still have Uke standing straight and not bent in any direction... control throughout each technique.

PEace

Dalen

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Old 03-13-2012, 08:12 AM   #3
ChrisMoses
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Re: Stress-testing structure

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your post isn't what Lee is talking about at all. This just sounds like a list of strategic counters (not that there's anything wrong with it...) but doesn't address the concept of testing structure at all.

I'm still a huge fan of many of the most basic exercises for testing structure. Get into a posture (mabu, twisted mabu, bow stance even mugamae) and have someone put constant building pressure into you to the point of failure. Then do it from different angles, use different mental constructs to find one that works better for you.

From there I like walking mabu or doing something similar with your partner pushing on the chest. You can play with different kinds of connections: are you simply able to overwhelm your partner? Can you "pop" them back? Can you simply walk them across the room so that they feel like there's nothing they can do to stop you even though it doesn't look or feel like you're putting much force into them?

Pushout is still huge, because it creates a dynamic space where you learn to maintain frame and guide it through your intent. Aiki age can be similar, but there seem to be more mechanical tricks you can use with aiki-age, where pushout doesn't give you many crutches to fall back on. Brilliant really.

During waza, we'll often adjust the attack to test different things. I think of how I attack as like a slider on a line, it goes from [super light go with what nage directs aikido style (yuck)] -> [stiffer and forceful but very responsive (still Aikido style, meh)] -> [Big Dumb Muscle (harder to deal with, but generally able to be moved by someone with structure] -> [structure/frame based attack with varying intents (hardest to deal with that I play with regularly)]. We mostly slide back and forth between BDM and Structure/frame based attacks.

Recently we worked on receiving jointlocks through the frame. You could think of it as pushout through a nikyo. Like the push tests, there's a limit to how much you can take and the point is to go to failure (in a safe environment not populated by egomaniacs) to stretch that boundary.

There's more, but that's all I have time for. Honestly it's kind of in everything I/we do on the mat anymore, even in my batto practice.

Chris Moses
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Old 03-13-2012, 12:10 PM   #4
Lee Salzman
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Re: Stress-testing structure

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your post isn't what Lee is talking about at all. This just sounds like a list of strategic counters (not that there's anything wrong with it...) but doesn't address the concept of testing structure at all.
I am just curious about what people do to work at their structure as a quality independent of notions of techniques/applications, which is I guess why I stuffed this thread in this particular ghetto. But eh, if people want to discuss that, not my place to limit discussion, I just wanted to start a topic and see where it flows.
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Old 03-13-2012, 12:16 PM   #5
ChrisMoses
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Re: Stress-testing structure

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
... I just wanted to start a topic and see where it flows.
Hippie.

Chris Moses
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Old 03-13-2012, 02:08 PM   #6
chillzATL
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Re: Stress-testing structure

static pushes to various points on the body (shoulder, elbow, hand, hip) from the side in a natural stance and then from the front/back from a more fighting stance and then similar sorts of things while walking, pushes to the front, pulls from behind, pulls to one leg, etc. We'll also do variations of push out and more live grappling-y drills. There are quite a few variations on all these really.

When the opportunity is there I'll do some of these same things in classes, but I aikido them up for familiarity doing the pulls/pushes from ikkyo, sayu, etc.

I also try to replicate most of these stuff alone using various stretchy bands, yard equipment, etc.
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Old 03-14-2012, 03:59 AM   #7
dalen7
 
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Re: Stress-testing structure

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your post isn't what Lee is talking about at all. This just sounds like a list of strategic counters.
Perhaps - but where I was really coming from is that everything I listed was to show the Tori that their technique was 100% a waste and did not work...

... vs. trying to push a proper technique to its limit, and/or countering it.
You have to know what your doing, why and when what works before you can 'test it' - and many are under the false assumption that they know this as Uke and Tori both have built in patterns of movements that no one else would do. [A beginner can even help this to become apparent, and has for me at times.]

A lot of what I see only works if the uke totally just does what Tori wants. [even if their conditioned response feels like resistance as mentioned above]

Again, perhaps this was not addressing the issue, suppose when I wrote it that is how I interpreted it as there is no 'stress', or technique, in these situations.
But to stress test... you have to know what your doing and if its actually 'doing'.

[Otherwise you just have frustrated 3rd 2nd kyus, etc who see their technique isnt working for some reason when Uke fails to comply and they are 'larger' than you.]

Peace

Dalen

Last edited by dalen7 : 03-14-2012 at 04:03 AM.

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Old 03-14-2012, 04:07 AM   #8
dalen7
 
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Re: Stress-testing structure

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
I am just curious about what people do to work at their structure as a quality independent of notions of techniques/applications, which is I guess why I stuffed this thread in this particular ghetto. But eh, if people want to discuss that, not my place to limit discussion, I just wanted to start a topic and see where it flows.
Well we know its not about technique, its a pointer.
Like the Gracie bros said, not all techniques will work with all people at all times.

Its a chess game and you merely have the pieces to play with.

But with most Aikidoka they dont even have the pieces to play with, what they have is not even 'tested' so that they can understand what works.

As mentioned in other threads I was able to pull off kotegaishi in a grappling round... I call it luck as it was not a ranked BJJ practitioner and was a Thai Boxing heavy dojo in comparison to ground work.

My wrist twist worked on principle not on a set technique... I bring up technique only because in technique it is obvious people are missing the whys or I suppose you would say structure.

Sorry if I cannot put it into clearer words.

Peace

Dalen

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Old 03-14-2012, 03:05 PM   #9
Rob Watson
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Re: Stress-testing structure

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
What sort of things do you guys and gals do to test structure under resistance, both static structure and dynamic/movement structure, to root out weakness that need to be worked on? For that matter, what sorts of stresses do you try to make your structure resilient against? And when doing some sort of pressure testing, what flaws do you typically look for?
Recently found someone to train with. We can both do statics modestly and to liven up the training we do some drills to begin making the transition to moving drils. We really liked a segment from the 50th anniversary of Sokaku Takedas death DVD which shows a great many Daito and other practitioners - in there is a couple of guys from Mochizuki Yoseikan doing what looks like slow motion jiyuwaza. Looks to fit the bill quite nicely.

We start static so we can establish connection then someone finds a 'gap' and exploits it until someone finds a 'break' or 'gap' that can be used to do a reversal. At some point it is clear a throw or lock is about to be completed so the dominant side creates a 'break' or 'gap' in their connection/structure to allow the other person to exploit just for the sake of keeping the drill going without a bunch of tossing/tapping. Fun stuff. Move as fast as you can without either breaking - usually it is reeeeeally slow. When we break too often then we go back to statics or solo work. Rinse, lather , repeat.

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Old 03-14-2012, 03:17 PM   #10
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Stress-testing structure

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
. We really liked a segment from the 50th anniversary of Sokaku Takedas death DVD which shows a great many Daito and other practitioners - in there is a couple of guys from Mochizuki Yoseikan doing what looks like slow motion jiyuwaza.
It's a kata. Hyori no kata.

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Old 03-14-2012, 03:58 PM   #11
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Stress-testing structure

Some drills for consideration:

- #1 stands beside #2 placing one hand on back of #2's head the other hand on his chest then presses inward trying to fold #2. #2 relaxes and maintains proper spinal form. If large muscles are used to resist the pressure it is very noticable and not very productive. Repeat this drill but move hand to belly and then lower, this gives more leverage and makes the drill more difficult. Now do the same drill but place hands on forehead and upper back (then lower back, etc.) Then go sideways and finally for a real challenge start to do the forward and backward diagonals. The body should remain relaxes and breathing should be easy and free. Hint: Focus on the whole and not the contact points.

- #1 assumes pushup position, #2 kneels besides him with hand between shoulder blades and pressing downward (modulate the amount of pressure to challenge #1). #1 does a slow pushup (down then up) while maintaining proper form and alignment. Break the form and the pushup becomes very difficult if not impossible. Hint: Focus on the whole, do not attempt to push against the hand and learn to move with whole body structure.

- Same set up as the first drill above but now do squats while #1 is pressing in the different directions. Maintaining form during movement is good, but make sure the breathing is also maintained.

Enjoy,

Mark J.
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Old 03-14-2012, 04:31 PM   #12
Rob Watson
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Re: Stress-testing structure

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
It's a kata. Hyori no kata.
Thanks. Here is a youtube of it from the DVD I mentioned - copyright violation? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vn4mDfMKNM

Just to be clear we don't actually do the hyori no kata but a freestyle jiyuwaza. Seems like a nice way to tie waza and internal stuff to break the monotony. Our focus during the drill is to maintain structure, connection and feel for breaks in same in the partner. We do the same thing during static push drills so the person pushing is actively trying to push while maintaining their 'internals' and feeling/listening for breaks to exploit - that way the push drills work for both folks simultaneously.

I must have misread the 'resistance' Q of the OP as 'motion' because that is what we work on in the jiyuwaza is transitioning to motion. Resistance is always there in the sense that both folks are doing 'internals' during all the drills.

Remember 2/10 so help yourself to the salt grains.

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