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Old 06-27-2011, 12:48 PM   #276
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum; qui victoriam cupit, milites imbuat diligenter; qui secundos optat eventus, dimicet arte, non casu. Nemo provocare, nemo audet offendere, quem intellegit superiorem esse pugnaturum. Flavius Vegetius.
Salve Demetrio,
O me miserum,vale Joe.
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Old 06-27-2011, 01:50 PM   #277
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum; qui victoriam cupit, milites imbuat diligenter; qui secundos optat eventus, dimicet arte, non casu. Nemo provocare, nemo audet offendere, quem intellegit superiorem esse pugnaturum. Flavius Vegetius.
Tried to find a translation. This is what I could make of it:

So, who wants peace, prepares for war. Who wants to achieve victory, trains his soldiers with diligence. Who aspires to success, fights with strategy, not leaving anything to chance. No one dares to provoke or offend whom he knows to be superior in combat.

Flavius Vegetius (on Miltary Matters)
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:35 PM   #278
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Sun Tzu - art of war comes to mind reading this...

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 07-14-2011, 12:59 AM   #279
LinTal
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

This may have already come out and I've missed it, or maybe it doesn't need to because of reasons my inexperience hasn't let me see. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. But maybe everything's a whole lot simpler than we think it is.

At the moment I'm reading 'The Art of Peace' by O'Sensei at the moment. He says:

Quote:
The techniques of the Wap of Peace change constantly... Today's techniques will be different tomorrow. Do not get caught up with the form and appearence of a challenge. The Art of Peace has no form - it is the study of the spirit.
And

Quote:
Train hard, experience the light ansd warmth of the Art of Peace, and become a true person... It will have a different expression in each place it takes root. Continually adapt the teachings and create a beautiful environment.
And

Quote:
Absorb the venerable traditions into this new art by clothing them with fresh garments, and build on the classic styles to create better forms.
So perhaps it has changed from what he taught, but hasn't actually diverged.

The world changes when you do.
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Old 07-14-2011, 06:25 AM   #280
Diana Frese
Dojo: Aikikai of S.W. Conn. (formerly)
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Thanks for the inspirational quotes from O Sensei. Great way to start the day. I think I'll copy them and put them up on a bulletin board in the house as reminders, and if I teach again and there is a bulletin board there .... then there also.

Of course, I'll still study the traditional Aikido forms, as you seem to be saying. I look forward to training with people again, and to meeting old friends and new, and of course visiting some of my teachers, it has been many years since I saw them.

Looking forward to checking out your posts, they are valuable. Thanks!
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Old 07-23-2011, 08:00 PM   #281
LinTal
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

What a great way to refocus! Thanks, still trying to find my feet though. Let us know how the visits go to your teachers! It would be interesting to see if their aikido is the way you remember.

The world changes when you do.
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Old 07-24-2011, 04:56 PM   #282
Diana Frese
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Hi Selin,

Thanks for your kind reply. I saw Yamada Sensei at a class he taught at a friend of my husband's and mine's dojo here in town. Back in 2003 and a video or so, though my dial up computer has trouble with downloads and doesn't seem to be able to do them at all recently. In his case it seems the same as always and to be sure my friends and I admire it just the way it is. But one of my senpai's from the old New York Aikikai now seems to have a different form from before, but still very good.

I've been thinking about writing him or asking our friend here, since he visited here before Yamada Sensei did. Then with permission I will mention his name. Sorry to be so mysterious. However, Yamada Sensei in an editorial said he doesn't expect everyone to look like him, since everyone has a different body structure, maybe personality, etc. I'll try to find the quote. Yamada Sensei mentioned singing as an example, he admires Frank Sinatra but doesn't try to imitate him.

I guess I'd better find the article so you can read it for yourself. For now, I'll just say that one of my former students, who moved back to Long Island, has attended his seminars and really likes them, probably for the energy and the clarity....

As for the senpai I mentioned, another student of mine had moved to Maine and when I mentioned "lion paw" and to see if she thought his technique reminded her of that she agreed. I don't know how else to describe it. Strong, but catlike.

I guess I'd better get permission, then recommend a video for the Aiki Web viewers, or everyone will say I've gone into the Twilight Zone or something. I just have difficulty with the usual way of describing techniques.... and I have to admit, there is a lot of controversy on Aiki Web, so I'll just recommend people check these things out for themselves.

I hope I've taken the first step in answering your question by giving an example of two major teachers, one who seems same as always and one who seemed surprisingly different from what I remembered.

But 2011 is a new decade so you're right, I should go visit them and my other teachers and senpai's .... thanks again and good luck in your further studies and in finding people to train with if your job involves relocation...
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Old 07-24-2011, 05:10 PM   #283
Diana Frese
Dojo: Aikikai of S.W. Conn. (formerly)
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Oops, I'd better stop being mysterious. The senpai is Harvey Konigsberg, from the old NY Aikikai and my former student who lives up in Maine attended a seminar and said she agreed about the "lion paw" aspect, strong but subtle, I'm just not very good at technical descriptions as I said before.

The other former student of mine that I mentioned attended Yamada Sensei's seminars and really likes them. She also likes Sioux Hall (one of Kanai Sensei's students) and I think she also took class with Laura Pavlik, and liked the class very much.
(I'm starting to sound like Facebook with all the "likes")

I write to Yamada Sensei from time to time just to say hi, now I'll have to write to Harvey and hope he doesn't mind about the "lion paw" description.

It's great to read about relatively new, and very enthusiastic students so thanks again for your posts, I'll keep reading.
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Old 09-02-2011, 04:39 PM   #284
Ken McGrew
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Welcome to the Tower of Babel.

Students should do what their sensei tells them to do, or find a new teacher. I'm sure that most live in students of O'Sensei attempted to teach what they learned from him. It's insulting to say they just did their own thing. Despite the best intentions, the question are we doing what O'Sensei would have us do seems appropriate to ask.

I find it frustrating when people claim to be doing the real O'Sensei Aikido and that others are not, and yet they present no evidence rather than verbal accounts where words can mean different things to different teachers.

We are fortunate to have video footage of O'Sensei demonstrating Aikido. We also have footage of his students practicing Aikido under his supervision. We also have statements that O'Sensei himself made. If you ignore O'Sensei's words then perhaps it is you who are not doing O'Sensei's art. Any cursory review of the footage of O'Sensei and his students evidences that O'Sensei was teaching leading, blending, and projecting, and that he expected cooperative ukemi. He was demonstrating and teaching exactly the Aikido and approach to training Aikido that this thread was meant to dismiss as somehow not his Aikido. It's just so through the looking glass to make such arguments.

There is a difference between training "what works" today and training in such a manner, in the system O'Sensei perfected later in life, to eventually approach the higher levels of Aikido. It is a system that allows us to learn what cannot be directly observed and is not merely physical. Do a search of "takemuso" on this forum. Then do a search of "technique." I take that as evidence that the vast majority of contributors to the threads on this forum may not be doing O'Sensei's Aikido. Aikido is not a collection of techniques.
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:27 AM   #285
roadtoad
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

M. Saito's knees went out on him when he was about 35. He changed o'sensei's idea of ikkyo omote forever. The ikkyo omote everyone does now days, even the third daisho, is really, Saito's, 'my knees went out on me' Ikkyo omote. And is not the way o'sensei wanted it done.
Video clips that prove that are almost impossible to find, but, the first few seconds of that clip from 1935, shows o'sensei stretching uke's loins in ikkyo omote, quite unlike the way everyone does it now.
I'll try to find it in a few days, but I'm away from town now.
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Old 03-11-2012, 07:21 PM   #286
roadtoad
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

o.k., if you watch the first 5 seconds of the throws in tachiwaza, you will see o'sensei doing ikkyo omote the way he wanted it, quite exaggerated, but still, along the way that he wanted it done, he wanted you to actually enter uke's attack, and stretch his loins. There were a lot of other tricks to keep uke in place, such as stepping on his forward foot. This is quite different than the ikkyo omote used in almost all aikido dojos today.
Another, favorite saying of o'sensei was 'Even I don't know if I'm doing ikkyo omote right.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Cfpay1X2c
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Old 03-12-2012, 05:18 AM   #287
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
o.k., if you watch the first 5 seconds of the throws in tachiwaza, you will see o'sensei doing ikkyo omote the way he wanted it, ...
We do this.
But we call it ikkyo nage. We differentiate it from ikkyo done as pin.
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Old 03-12-2012, 07:38 AM   #288
roadtoad
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Good, that's a beginning. This is the way o'sensei wanted ikkyo omote done. It would use the real principle of irimi, or entering. In the old days, you would see nage start this throw, and then, if he didn't have the full advantage on uke, nage woul run uke clear across the dojo, just to turn him over. The idea is to enter a super fast guy's attack, a fast karateka, or a boxer, to uplift him, stretch his loins, twist him over and down.
I'm surprised anyone still uses it in any fashion. Doshu doesn't, Saito's son doesn't. Few use this anymore.
There may be other videos around that show it a little better, but, I haven't been able to find them.
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:38 AM   #289
phitruong
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

before the westerners shown up in Japan, Japanese tent to have the similar build. when westerner shown up, i believed various Asian martial arts made changes to accommodate the different builds. I was watching the show on the life of Bruce Lee on TV last night. They shown the scene in the Game of Death where Bruce fought against Kareem Abdul Jabbar. I was thinking if someone with the build of Bruce doing ikkyo on someone like Kareem, exactly the way O Sensei shown, that wouldn't work very well. For one thing, Kareem would just pick up his arm and toss that person across the room like a basketball or pick up his arm and let you dangle, running in mid-air.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:38 PM   #290
gregstec
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
before the westerners shown up in Japan, Japanese tent to have the similar build. when westerner shown up, i believed various Asian martial arts made changes to accommodate the different builds. I was watching the show on the life of Bruce Lee on TV last night. They shown the scene in the Game of Death where Bruce fought against Kareem Abdul Jabbar. I was thinking if someone with the build of Bruce doing ikkyo on someone like Kareem, exactly the way O Sensei shown, that wouldn't work very well. For one thing, Kareem would just pick up his arm and toss that person across the room like a basketball or pick up his arm and let you dangle, running in mid-air.
To me, techniques are just manifestations of principles, and which one you apply is determined by what is being presented to you at any given moment. When being attacked by a giant, the last thing I would want to do is extend him up - it would be more like bring him down with a nice atemi shot to his knee; which of course would be at my eyeball height

Greg
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:40 PM   #291
lars beyer
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
o.k., if you watch the first 5 seconds of the throws in tachiwaza, you will see o'sensei doing ikkyo omote the way he wanted it, quite exaggerated, but still, along the way that he wanted it done, he wanted you to actually enter uke's attack, and stretch his loins. There were a lot of other tricks to keep uke in place, such as stepping on his forward foot. This is quite different than the ikkyo omote used in almost all aikido dojos today.
Another, favorite saying of o'sensei was 'Even I don't know if I'm doing ikkyo omote right.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Cfpay1X2c
Hi.
I guess what is seen in the youtube clip is ikkyo omote ki no nagare (with a throw) prewar style aiki budo. I believe it was not originally taught the way it is demonstrated here which is indeed very high level. Chances are also that O´sensei altered the technique later on, at least Aikido as we know it today
(in all it´s various shapes and sizes) didn´t exist in it´s modern form(s) in 1935 even the basic elements are evident in this video.
In Budo, the edition that Aikidojournal published all the different basic techniques are discussed and there are also a dvd available where Morihiro Saito Shihan demonstrates the various Aiki budo techniques the way he was
taught. Very interresting indeed.
I also hear that many assumptions on aikido techniques comes from watching O´sensei performing in flowing form and it´s clear that the basic elements of each technique are not visible to the naked eye.
Adding sword and staff to aikido came later and the teaching methods evolved as well.
And what is shown is the highest possible level which O´sensei later on referred to as Takemusu Aikido.
Thats why we need to trust O´senseis students and their students when they tell us what the basic forms look like. It´s not possible to judge by simply watching a couple of youtube clips with O´sensei demonstrating his techniques.
Personally I go for those lineages that have a long lasting "personal" relationship with O´sensei but this doesn´t mean I reject anything as being invalid or false just because it can´t be proved to be historically correct.
But again it´s hard to prove scientifically what is auenthentic, but ongoing historical research does point in certain directions I believe.
It´s interresting to read Ellis Amdur and Peter Goldsbury and I also like very much to read Stanley Pranin but offcourse also the second Doshu´s book "A life in Aikido" is highly interresting I feel.

Peace
Lars
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:02 PM   #292
Marc Abrams
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
Good, that's a beginning. This is the way o'sensei wanted ikkyo omote done. It would use the real principle of irimi, or entering. In the old days, you would see nage start this throw, and then, if he didn't have the full advantage on uke, nage woul run uke clear across the dojo, just to turn him over. The idea is to enter a super fast guy's attack, a fast karateka, or a boxer, to uplift him, stretch his loins, twist him over and down.
I'm surprised anyone still uses it in any fashion. Doshu doesn't, Saito's son doesn't. Few use this anymore.
There may be other videos around that show it a little better, but, I haven't been able to find them.
Ike:

You spoke of having a private interview with O'Sense and you talk in this thread about how O'Sensei wanted things done. Could you kindly let us know when you studied at the hombu dojo in Japan? Some background into your martial arts experience would be greatly appreciated.

thank you in advance.

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-12-2012, 04:26 PM   #293
Chicko Xerri
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

"Keep an upright posture Body, Mind, Heart. here is where success lays. Be careful not to keep your feet too far apart, exaggeration disregards Aiki, there will be your undoing.
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Old 03-12-2012, 07:53 PM   #294
roadtoad
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

I studied at Azuma air base under Isoyama, who was a uchideska at hombu since he was 12 in 1949.
He was the youngest ever 6th dan, age 25, or possibly even younger. Saito was technically my instructor, because o'sensei wanted Saito to teach Isoyama. I was there from '63 to '68. I only went to actual Iwama once, in '66, for about 3 days, we stayed in o'sensei's actual house, because the new iwama dojo was still being built. The other times I met o'sensei was at hombu. Also, that would be the only place we would meet with Saito, who came down from Iwama. Saito couldn't come to Azuma, he didn't have a base pass.
When Kissomaru ueshiba kicked Tohei out, even though it was probably necessary, I quit.
I haven't been in a dojo in 40 years, except maybe to just 'look in' for a moment.
I'm not even a white belt now. I don't plan to come back until I can develop the 'high ki', maybe not at o'sensei's level, but at a level you would expect out of a 8th or 9th dan, in the old days.
I fully plan to suceed.
I just work out in my garage now, with my marine colonel buddy, and a couple of my grandsons.
I'm also mega cripple, after two strokes, four sezures,and two bycycle wrecks, I probably should be in a hospital, but I plan a full recovery, I'll be back in the game in a year or two.
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:05 PM   #295
Chris Li
 
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
I studied at Azuma air base under Isoyama, who was a uchideska at hombu since he was 12 in 1949.
He was the youngest ever 6th dan, age 25, or possibly even younger. Saito was technically my instructor, because o'sensei wanted Saito to teach Isoyama. I was there from '63 to '68. I only went to actual Iwama once, in '66, for about 3 days, we stayed in o'sensei's actual house, because the new iwama dojo was still being built. The other times I met o'sensei was at hombu. Also, that would be the only place we would meet with Saito, who came down from Iwama. Saito couldn't come to Azuma, he didn't have a base pass.
When Kissomaru ueshiba kicked Tohei out, even though it was probably necessary, I quit.
I haven't been in a dojo in 40 years, except maybe to just 'look in' for a moment.
I'm not even a white belt now. I don't plan to come back until I can develop the 'high ki', maybe not at o'sensei's level, but at a level you would expect out of a 8th or 9th dan, in the old days.
I fully plan to suceed.
I just work out in my garage now, with my marine colonel buddy, and a couple of my grandsons.
I'm also mega cripple, after two strokes, four sezures,and two bycycle wrecks, I probably should be in a hospital, but I plan a full recovery, I'll be back in the game in a year or two.
Isoyama always gave me the impression that he considered Ueshiba his only instructor, but you know how these things go.

I'm not sure that Tohei could be considered "kicked out" - there's a fair amount of evidence that he was planning his exit from the early 1970's.

Best,

Chris

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