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Old 01-15-2012, 11:31 PM   #1801
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I suggest a prize for the 2000th, how about it Jun?
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Old 03-10-2012, 09:05 PM   #1802
roadtoad
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I would say aikido needs to be upgraded, the sword strike that is called shomenuchi, is a joke. It may have had some use in the 19th century, but not since.
In a private inrterview with me, o'sensei said, 'the most important thing is to win, then, you try your best to use the arts of non resistence on your opponent'.
I've been in about 25 street fights since I was a black belt in aikido. Sometimes I used aikido techniques, sometimes I used techniques from other styles.
My belief is that now, aikido is all 'in the culture'. An instructor can put you down as long as you do exactly what he tells you to.
Now, it seems to me, that the only street fighter an aikidoka could overcome, would be someone he could beat anyway, with little, or no training.
I believe thart o'sensei would have liked to see aikido people winning UFC..
O'sensei was upgrading aikido techniques until the day he died.
I believe that modern instructors should start learning and teaching how to counter boxers, karateka, taekwondo, muy thai, and all the rest.
As it is now, sword strrike is the joke of all martial arts.
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Old 03-11-2012, 01:54 AM   #1803
dalen7
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
I would say aikido needs to be upgraded, the sword strike that is called shomenuchi, is a joke.
I believe thart o'sensei would have liked to see aikido people winning UFC..
O'sensei was upgrading aikido techniques until the day he died.
I believe that modern instructors should start learning and teaching how to counter boxers, karateka, taekwondo, muy thai, and all the rest.
As it is now, sword strrike is the joke of all martial arts.
Dunno... its a mixed bag and like hobbiton some things change slowly - if at all.

First I agree that if anyone wants to know a self defense course or art to use in sport they should choose BJJ mixed with Thai Boxing and Judo.
For the above, as Aikido is currently taught, it is pretty much useless unless someone goes in the flows they have learned over the years.

Though... the principle can allow some to perhaps get in Kotegaishi or Rokkyo. [Though Ive seen the Gracie Bros use Rokkyo as well as Roy Dean I believe, though maybe with a different name.]

This goes to point out the fact that Aikido came from the same art as BJJ - Japanese Jiu Jitsu.
Judo back in the days had a pretty mean ground game, but for sure I dont think of that for todays Judo - what Judo I see, and admittedly its not much, its seems someone wins just by a lucky throw to the ground and it stops.

I have been in a couple fights, regrettably, in the past.
Had I studied Eckhart Tolle more and 'danced' around some egos - including mine - it could have been avoided.

Though had I known BJJ and did a proper choke when I had the dude in the headlock it would have ended more peacefully than me kicking him in the face after he threw me on the ground and then popping up to hit him in the nose and blood starting to flow... thus ending this particular fight.
Probably would have had him positioned in some Aikido finishing move as I heard some people wake up from chokes back in fight mode.

Point is there are some relative moves in Aikio, but as you pointed out Shomenuchi is locked in for demo purposes only and with Jodan Tsuki being irrelevant as punches.
[Cant tell you the number of people who feel great, including myself, after nice counters to Tsuki and then I have to remind myself that the kickboxing instructor down the road and any of his guys I could not pull one move on - and even got my lights knocked out for doing silly Aikido posture... but hey, I tried it out.]

caveat: For those who would read the above and say that a 3rd kyu is too early to try out against others, I would disagree... [keep in mind for my 3rd kyu I had already learned Koshinage, etc. which many do not do until 1st kyu]... I already had worked with higher level kyus who I had to gently show them that their stuff did not work, not verbally, but every now and again making it look like they discovered it for themselves. [Lots of ego involved when time is in the mind... Im more forward about this stuff though now that I have come back to train and people are seeing that their, and my, game needs to step up as your brain can stop thinking of realistic scenarios of noncompliance and you believe what your doing is working. [as a side note, I would have been getting my shodan this year if I didnt take the two year break, but I will say I didnt miss much... my goal is to integrate Aikido with BJJ and to figure out the kinks in the system which you cant do if your not willing to 'test' it and forget egos.

So, yes Shomenuchi, Tsuki Jodan, etc. are a 'joke' in a sense - but at the same time you can learn a lot about the principles behind things and for what Aikido currently does, the flow, its nice to watch.

As far as O Sensei... highly doubt he would want his stuff in MMA/UFC.
If he did he would not have gotten rid of ground and kept more than Koshinage, kubinage, etc. as the Judo type throws.

When I watch videos I see people falling for him. Much like how Helio Gracie had his son pick him up gently and put him down. Of course, he was freakn old... it would not only have been disrespect to floor the old man, but caused him serious injury. But there are many, perhaps including himself, who become a bit delusional and believe his ki, or whatever, put all the young whipper snappers on the ground.

Without stamina, strength, flexibility, etc., your not going to be like Eddie Bravo over 40 able to move around the way he does.
The idea you can be out of shape, even overweight, and extend your ki to take people down is just not true. If one believes it is, and my 3rd kyu experience was not enough, then may the dans take it out and try it - put it on youtube so we can see this work.

Every person has a path... and the fact is until people take this into a live situation for themselves, how will they know? you can theorize all day, you can say your not high enough to try it out - but by the time you get your black belt so much time went into a system that is how I just pointed out, that ones ego doesnt want to see that they may be wrong.

And its not about wrong... that is the 'wrong' view point, its just not working in certain situations.
The fact is mixing Aikido would step up everyones Aikido even if they did not make BJJ a career.
And BJJ is a gentle art like Aikido... unless you dont tap of course, and then you'll see something similar to what happened to Tate when R. Rousey made her elbow go in a completely different direction. [Big ego, big fall.]

Peace

Dalen

Last edited by dalen7 : 03-11-2012 at 03:07 AM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:26 AM   #1804
roadtoad
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I'm practically the only guy around here that has spoken to o'sensei personally. I take my beliefs from that experience. I really believe that o'sensei actually believed exactly what I said. In the sixtys, boxing and wrestling were sports, so o'sensei didn't classify them as martial arts. Now, under ufc, etc.
boxing and wrestling define martial arts.
Also, I saw more combat in Vietnam than 99% of all marines and special forces, even though I was air force. I am one of the few aikidoka since Tohei to actually take aikido into the war zone.
My clairvoyance was highly elevated by that time. Often, I would know as much as three days in advance, how I was going to be attacked, what side, what weapon, etc. and I would know way in advance what technique I should use.
People who have actually been in fire fights will know what I mean.
The only time I ever used aikido in a fight was when I found myself in an exact position that I had learned in aikido class. You can only do what you have trained in.
The rest of the time I did the Bruce Lee thing, i.e., always attack first, get the position on him, use techniques that you know the opponent doesn't know, etc.
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:26 AM   #1805
jackie adams
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Wow, what a ridiculously long discussion, amazing. A unbelievable debate, what does it tell us about our perceptions that make up our paradigms about martial arts. A revealing debate, indeed, into the expectations associated inside and outside Aikido. All this having an importance to me as I start up my own school. What philosophy do I project as a leader, a teacher, a practitioner?

The marketing angle of my school, will be provincial to the original Aikido, and non-provincial to being a competitive fighting art. People's perceptions and misperceptions effect their expectations and their preconceptions. Choosing the right message to send to the public about my school now seems even more important after surveying this debate.

I don't want to send the message of violence. Aikido's true paradigm is not the same as competitive fighting martial arts. Not having the necessary benchmark parts, Aikido struggles in conforming to that arena. Knowing Aikido is doomed to failure in a competition venues as it lacks the need tailoring to fit, why push it. Don't stick a round peg in a square hole. I don't want my school to fail based on a falsehood that it could compete and come out on top in specifically designed fighting venues. That is just crazy.

I want a broader message that appeals to more people, a wider range of student both in age and interest. To accomplish that my messages can't be specific as fighting, or too broad where the focus is lost. I am looking for general public appealing based on a simple idea everyone can personally relate, something broad enough it can touch a broad base of potential students. A fighting message is too specific only appealing to a small demographic pulled by an over saturated market.

Aikido offers an alternative to the long held perception martial arts offers a Holy Grail -martial arts will make you some type of unrealistic badass who can't be defeated. Joining my Aikido class sends a message to the public when you join Aikido, it is an enjoyable recreational activity for people to enjoy and learn something about themselves. It is not about proving ones self through violence. I want people to expand their experiences in their lives in a broader way through Aikido. I want them to walk though the dojo door knowing they have nothing to prove to anyone. There is no need to prove Aikido's worthiness in a fight.

My philosophy is no illusions, absent of false promises about Aikido can and can't do. When joining my school will not be about how to become a badass undefeatable fighter. My school offers an experience that if called upon can be a means of self-defense under the right conditions and circumstance. No fighter or non-fighter kool aid here. Why put doubt into the heads of my students,or pipe dreams of what they are doing. I don't want them to be caught up in a debate like this one trying to prove something. No reason for them to be caught in a trap of doubt, lacking confidence about Aikido. I want them to shape their own reality.

*Undefeatable, a word for some reason not acceptable to the snooty lexicons; usage as slang).
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:15 AM   #1806
graham christian
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I'm wondering, why is shomen seen as a 'joke' ?

Peace.G.
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:13 PM   #1807
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I'm wondering, why is shomen seen as a 'joke' ?

Peace.G.
Pick your poison, but I'm guessing it's because people think it's supposed to replace a tsuki/atemi.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:14 PM   #1808
dalen7
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I'm wondering, why is shomen seen as a 'joke' ?

Peace.G.
No joke... it really all is depending on perspective, or environment.
Its only a joke if someone were to assume that they could use it in Thai Boxing, etc.

Which I do not believe anyone has suggested...
However it was suggested, for those interested, to add to the arsenal so that people will know how to counter strikes, etc. from a more realistic standpoint. [As it can, even amongst the best, have the concept sneak in that somehow it would be affective.]

Sorry, should have perhaps been clearer - love Shomen.

Peace

Dalen

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:19 PM   #1809
dalen7
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Pick your poison, but I'm guessing it's because people think it's supposed to replace a tsuki/atemi.
Tsuki/atemi...
dunno, would say a love hate relation.

Fine for movement, etc. - but the way it is practiced typically will leave most people on the floor of any boxing ring. Im not saying its impossible, Im guessing Rokkyo may potentially be pulled off - but even then the strikes in Aikido are nothing like in boxing.

I see too many people, [ranking], who appear to believe that their Tsuki is awesome - until a gentle reminder comes up with a typical jab, etc. which is too fast. [of course no real hit in Aikido, but its fast enough to make the point.]

There are all kind of simulated strikes and entries, which I personally dont like only in that if the person were really hit the whole body would not stay in the postion it is in to finish the move how it is done.

More than likely you would transition to a ground move once someone is hit, etc.

Again, not useless - but within a wider picture, from my experience, it can be misleading.

Peace

Dalen

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 03-11-2012, 01:18 PM   #1810
graham christian
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
No joke... it really all is depending on perspective, or environment.
Its only a joke if someone were to assume that they could use it in Thai Boxing, etc.

Which I do not believe anyone has suggested...
However it was suggested, for those interested, to add to the arsenal so that people will know how to counter strikes, etc. from a more realistic standpoint. [As it can, even amongst the best, have the concept sneak in that somehow it would be affective.]

Sorry, should have perhaps been clearer - love Shomen.

Peace

Dalen
Thanks for the reply. Yes I see and agree that it represents handling strikes and therefore anyone hitting down towards your head with a piece of something be it bottle or wood or whatever is the same motion, the one you get used to handling when handling shomen.

However, on the other side of the coin I do wonder sometimes why someone hasn't used an effective one in Thai Boxing etc. I'm serious. I conclude not many therefore understand just how powerful a shomen is or rather can be, in expert hands. Maybe this is the reason it is actually not allowed in most combat sports, the fact that it can be too dangerous.

Talking to a boxer once and the history of boxing, him also being now a practitioner of Aikido, he told me how the hammer blow to the head, the straight down blow (along the shomen line) was banned for being too dangerous.

Worth thinking about...

Peace.G.
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Old 03-11-2012, 02:51 PM   #1811
lars beyer
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
wrote: View Post
I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.
The reason there is less emphasis on strikes in Aikido is that it´s not good to focus too much on the strikes when you start learning Aikido.
It´s true that we don´t prepare people to fight in Aikido like people are prepared to fight in boxing and Muay Thai, because the essence of Aikido is non resistance, but that doesn´t mean that we are unprepared.
It´s clear that Aikido and MMA are taught in very different ways and for many the reason for training Aikido is not competition but selfdefence and personal development.
The number of available aikido techniques are overwhelming and it takes a long, long time understanding and mastering Aikido on a deeper level.

It is both faster and easier to learn MMA compared to Aikido, if you look at it from a cost benefit perspective,
you will be able to use your skills faster doing MMA.
For me, being in my forties it wouldn´t make sence to do MMA because I don´t have the physical strength and flexibility I had when I was 22 but that is not a problem in Aikido.
I can practise Aikido to the day I die and I can still defend myself if needed and get myself out of harms way. Aikido is truly a wonderfull Martial Art with many, many possible applications.

So my answer to your thread: Aikido is very usefull in selfdefence and I have used it personally in many ways in everyday life and conflict.

Peace
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Old 03-11-2012, 02:51 PM   #1812
dalen7
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Talking to a boxer once and the history of boxing, him also being now a practitioner of Aikido, he told me how the hammer blow to the head, the straight down blow (along the shomen line) was banned for being too dangerous.

Worth thinking about...

Peace.G.
I had the unfortunate circumstance as a kid at camp to have some tall dude, that wasn't quite there it would seem from his action, come out of know where and nail me in the head with his elbow.
[He said something about doing a 'soup bone" jumped up and bam... wasnt even fighting, he just thought he had a clever idea]

Anyway, yes coming down straight on top of the head can be devastating or feel that way for sure.
I know I never want that experience repeated.

As for boxing, take a look at Thai boxing where you can use elbows, etc. and Im not convinced anyone would get close enough in a match to do a 'shomen' without opening their face up for some bad strikes.

Again, I know the people I have seen in person and via video, definitely would not pull it off with the 'shomen' they show.
But then again I was always under the assumption that shomen was more about coming from the weapons aspect of Aikido - perhaps Peter G. can address this as he is like a historical Aikido encyclopedia.

So if this is true Shomen was really just practicing going against weapons without weapons... not as a move to take out someone. [Again, many know the history better than I do, and from observation I would think this is the case.]

Back in the UFC 1 I would think someone would have tried this as it seems they were doing everything else... Even today its still a bit rough as you have peoples arms braking and arms dislocated, ie. Strikeforce. [Forgot the guy not to long ago who had his upper arm snap from one of the locks.]

At the end of the day its all good... as long as people have fun and are enjoying life thats really the point.

Peace

Dalen

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 03-11-2012, 03:03 PM   #1813
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
For me, being in my forties it wouldn´t make sence to do MMA because I don´t have the physical strength and flexibility I had when I was 22 but that is not a problem in Aikido.
I can practise Aikido to the day I die and I can still defend myself if needed and get myself out of harms way. Aikido is truly a wonderfull Martial Art with many, many possible applications.

Peace
Isnt that the truth! Funny the age you picked out as 22 is when I stopped counting birthdays!

Anyway, for sure after 40 it can be rough getting into Thai Boxing, etc.
Im knocking around 40s door and can say that my body doesnt like more than half the stuff that would not have bothered it before.

For me its a game of getting back my flexibility and maintaining it.
[Im convinced Yoga should be a long term part of my game, I like the Eddie Bravo philosophy. He is over 40 and moves better than I did when I was younger.]

Also I just started doing the Gracie Bullyproof program with the kids. [Their jiu-jitsu for kids between 4-14] And have to say everyone is enjoying it.

I would love to go through their blue belt program. They are wonderful teachers and BJJ seems to be something, like Aikido, you can do until you die. [Some people on the forum here who are in their 40s+ practicing BJJ can probably testify to this.]

The attraction to Aikido for people 40+ is rather obvious though for me I will be mixing BJJ and Aikido, and continue to try to make my Aikido more live like BJJ. [Not just resisting, but getting the game where it is more like a puzzle/chess match - may not be totally the same as in BJJ... but that is the goal.

If I can get my stamina back up I would take up Thai Boxing again - stopped a couple years back, just wasnt into having my legs continually kicked. [Bigger guys right leg against my weaker leg... wasnt that pleasant]

Mainly for Cardio the above though... the idea of hitting people for sport, though something that was closer to me than Aikido and jiujitsu years back is something left for my youth. lol!

Anyway... its all good, nice to play around with the stuff and see what you can do with it.

Peace

Dalen

Last edited by dalen7 : 03-11-2012 at 03:05 PM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 03-11-2012, 03:15 PM   #1814
graham christian
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hi Dalen. I agree with the last line that's for sure.

Yes, shomen is from the sword so is based on that cut or line of attack.

The point of combat sports that differenciates them from martial arts I think can be seen by finding out what they are not allowed to do. In fact anything too dangerous is not allowed. Thus I never personally compare the two or see much comparison, even if some do want to call themselves a martial art. Maybe martial sport would be the better term although I'll stick with combat sport.

As Aikido is 99% about harmonious motion then it's good I find to point out that emphasis to students and thus what they 'could' do from that attained new position. From virtually every atemi you 'could' if you so wish turn that into a tegatana strike which would thus be a cut through the head. It's not part of the curriculum or indeed the intent in standard Aikido practice but the wise can see what can be done from such harmonious motion if needs be.

It's all good.

Peace.G.
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Old 03-11-2012, 04:45 PM   #1815
lbb
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

IT'S BACK!!! And just in time for spring, thanks all, the garden needs a load of manure and this thread sure can provide it. And as we all know, it's better if you mix in a little fresh with the well aged...yes, the very well aged, very very very very...
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Old 03-11-2012, 04:52 PM   #1816
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

"Grandmaster of Turkish Submission Wrestling and head of the Marital Kinetics Academy, Levent Altunbas, is unexpectedly challenged to a match when he visited the largest Aikido dojo in Vietnam. His opponent is a 4th Dan in Aikido and a champion fighter."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLP_DInpPHE

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Old 03-11-2012, 05:13 PM   #1817
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
"Grandmaster of Turkish Submission Wrestling and head of the Marital Kinetics Academy, Levent Altunbas, is unexpectedly challenged to a match when he visited the largest Aikido dojo in Vietnam. His opponent is a 4th Dan in Aikido and a champion fighter."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLP_DInpPHE

Marital kinetics? sounds dirty :P
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Old 03-11-2012, 05:22 PM   #1818
Demetrio Cereijo
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Smile Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
Marital kinetics? sounds dirty :P
You don't want to know what a turkish wrestler is capable of.
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Old 03-11-2012, 05:22 PM   #1819
gregstec
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
IT'S BACK!!! And just in time for spring, thanks all, the garden needs a load of manure and this thread sure can provide it. And as we all know, it's better if you mix in a little fresh with the well aged...yes, the very well aged, very very very very...
Well the thread title is immortal, so why not let some of the newbs have some fun with it as well
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Old 03-11-2012, 06:25 PM   #1820
Garth
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Newb
right here!!!!
Do they not teach atemi in Vietnam Aikido?
Moving backwards with no plan is a fault and I am called on it ,... often.
Kaiten , tenkan, one step back maybe, but if my intention is to move back with nothing else, you run out of mat or room pretty fast.
And as Ellis Amdur says in his book, "no tenkan without irimi".
Same donut different day

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 03-11-2012, 06:33 PM   #1821
gregstec
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
Newb
right here!!!!
Do they not teach atemi in Vietnam Aikido?
Moving backwards with no plan is a fault and I am called on it ,... often.
Kaiten , tenkan, one step back maybe, but if my intention is to move back with nothing else, you run out of mat or room pretty fast.
And as Ellis Amdur says in his book, "no tenkan without irimi".
Same donut different day
That doughnut must be getting real hard by now - best to eat it and then get a new one
ps: - never move back...

Greg
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Old 03-11-2012, 07:48 PM   #1822
roadtoad
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

you're misreading me. I took chinese styles in Cholong, I only practiced aikido alone in vietnam. I was still stationed in japan, and later, the philippines, and I was only on temporary duty to vietnam.
So, what they practiced and didn't practice in Vietnam Aikido, in the sixtys, I wouldn't know.
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Old 03-11-2012, 08:51 PM   #1823
Garth
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
That doughnut must be getting real hard by now - best to eat it and then get a new one
ps: - never move back...

Greg
Point well taken about the back move.
Of course on the subject of donuts , I do what you suggest. But these types of threads Are what I meant ... Stale

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:12 PM   #1824
gregstec
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
Point well taken about the back move.
Of course on the subject of donuts , I do what you suggest. But these types of threads Are what I meant ... Stale
Ah, stale is in the taste of the beholder - what goes around, comes around - what was once stale, can now be fresh

Greg
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:46 PM   #1825
Garth
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Ah, stale is in the taste of the beholder - what goes around, comes around - what was once stale, can now be fresh

Greg
I like the hole / whole donut position
Ponder the duality of the two holes/ wholes.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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