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Old 03-03-2012, 07:33 AM   #51
gregstec
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Quote:
Jim Clark wrote: View Post
I understand the idea here, but think about this. If ki flows from each finger and they are all pointing in different directions when spread, aren't you sending ki in to non-useful directions instead of using it to influence uke?

This reminds me of a quote from a project manager at my old engineering job. When part of the project was falling behind, the team was directed to "concentrate their resources" on that part to get it back on schedule. A couple of months passed and we met again with status reports. The part that was behind and in fact a little bit ahead of schedule, while other parts of the project had moved ahead a little slower than previously. The manager was very excited about the progress we had made on the task that had been behind schedule (completely ignoring the other parts of the project). His comment was that we should "concentrate our resources on EVERYTHING" and then we could all get ahead of schedule..... Hmmm, wait, that doesn't work. There's only so much effort to go around and if you spread it over all directions, less goes into your intended target.

This is exactly what I'm talking about on this issue. I still think the tea ceremony post put it best about aligning fingers along the arm to unify intent....

I'm looking forward to seeing more posts.....
Funny you mentioned Project Management - I was a Project Manager before I retired last April. A successful project is dependent on how well the manager can balance the triple constraints of scope, time, and cost. This is best accomplished by proper planning to ensure all the scope detail is identified, a realistic timeline is estimated, and sufficient resources are assigned at the beginning of the project when the baseline is established. Sounds like the project manager in your example fell short in some of those areas. Large projects are complex entities with more that one thing going on at the same time with all efforts focusing on the overall project's objectives; you need to deploy the right resources at the right times to do that - An Aiki interaction between two people is a very complex thing as well requiring the same type of resource applications at the right time to be successful; it is not a singular and linear interaction.

IMO, I do not think I said ki is projecting from the fingers to affect uke - I think I said the fingers point the direction of where you want your intent/ki/energy to go. In reality, the intent/ki that will affect uke will come via the point of contact - the fingers, elbow, knee, or just about any other part of the body can be used to point in the direction of where you want your intent/ki to go; kind of like using a laser to light up the target and guide a missile to it. However, when directing energy to more than one point, like in aiki age to direct intent/ki behind uke, into uke's center, and down to uke's opposite hip all at the same time; using fingers to do that is easy because you have more that one finger. But as I previously said in post # 34 "this can be accomplished without spreading the fingers, but only after you have trained enough to have established a connected body" In this case, you can just use your mental intent to visualize the energy coming from your center out to uke in those three directions; the result will be the same. Of course, none of this can happen unless you have connected to uke's center and have established aiki in you first. The thing I don't like about the Tea Ceremony comparison is that alignment like that is linear and straight. Aiki is all about circular energy with spirals; by having the elbow and hand not aligned in the arm, you can manifest those types of movement much easier.

As I said, this is all my opinion based on previous training and experiences, and that your mileage may vary if you have not had the same training and/or experiences

Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 03-03-2012 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 03-04-2012, 07:49 AM   #52
TheAikidoka
 
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Hi Jim,

I will start by saying I have not read the previous replies do appologise, if I go over old ground in my post.
so here it is for me.

It depends, If I have consciousness in my body, I open my fingers, the reason is that there is no muscles in the fingers, opening them causes the tendons to contract releasing, full energy into the hands.

If my consciousness, is solely on the attacker, and not anywhere in my body, I just let everything relax completely, and apply Aiki, become completely aware of the sphere of uke, in this sphere before he has unleashed his attack, you can spot his movement of mind/intent, and you can apply movement and whatever technique.

The first approach as you may have gathered is in, Strong basic technique
the second approach is applied to Ki no Nagare, techniques, but can only work if the uke is fully committed, that does not mean just his body but he must be thinking and fully intending to strike you.

in this way, each approach I feel complements each other, FWIW.

in Budo

Andy B

Last edited by TheAikidoka : 03-04-2012 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 03-06-2012, 09:45 AM   #53
Mario Tobias
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

I think opening the fingers has its advantages and disadvantages as mentioned in the previous posts. I am viewing closed fingers as more of a disadvantage based on the fact that aikido is based on natural body predisposition of which one of the most popular is the natural arc of the arm. Similar to the fingers closed, this is not "natural".

Also, the tegatana is one of the most versatile and useful parts when doing aiki work. By closing the fingers, the sensation of the tegatana is diminished thereby losing some of its "usefulness" when doing techniques. If the fingers are closed, the sensation "transfers" to the fingers rather than the tegatana. It takes more "effort" to feel the sensation of the tegatana with closed fingers.

However, this is just my opinion. I think whether you do open or closed fingers, as long as the full sensation of the tegatana is still there no matter what you do, there is no right nor wrong answer.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:13 AM   #54
phitruong
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
By closing the fingers, the sensation of the tegatana is diminished thereby losing some of its "usefulness" when doing techniques. If the fingers are closed, the sensation "transfers" to the fingers rather than the tegatana. It takes more "effort" to feel the sensation of the tegatana with closed fingers.
doesn't really matter. it's a matter of training and it will get into the whole internal training stuffs which will get folks all excited for various reasons. however, isn't tegetana mean hand blade, i.e. knife hand? you see a knife with that spread? personally, i liked meat-cleaver hand myself.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 03-06-2012, 12:12 PM   #55
Fred Little
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

It is absolutely fascinating that the discussion is revolving around questions of which static position of the hand/finger complex is "correct" and almost no attention is being paid to the question of dynamic transitions between the three "static" positions of 1. Open and extended 2. Naturally relaxed and 3. Closed (either in fist or tegatana). This strikes me as being about as useful as a discussion on the subject: "Sleeping or waking, which one should you do all the time?"

Let me suggest some other questions that may be more useful:

How do you get from one to the other? Which ways of doing so are optimal and which are suboptimal? What is the effect of such transitions, on either one's partner or oneself? Why (or in what circumstance) is one better than the alternatives? This is not an exhaustive list of the dynamic possibilities, but it's a start.

Hope this is helpful.

FL

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Old 03-06-2012, 12:16 PM   #56
Chris Li
 
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

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Fred Little wrote: View Post
This strikes me as being about as useful as a discussion on the subject: "Sleeping or waking, which one should you do all the time?"
No brainer - sleeping.

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-06-2012, 01:23 PM   #57
phitruong
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
No brainer - sleeping.

Best,

Chris
nah, Sleep walking

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:25 PM   #58
Chris Li
 
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
nah, Sleep walking
But do you keep your mouth open at a sixty degree angle while sleep walking...

Best,

Chris

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Old 03-06-2012, 01:39 PM   #59
chillzATL
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
But do you keep your mouth open at a sixty degree angle while sleep walking...

Best,

Chris
I prefer not to think about anything Phi does while sleeping!
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:43 PM   #60
Patrick Hutchinson
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Well said Mr. Little.
"Asagao" is a way of opening, not, as Shioda is reported to have said above, an end state "with the fingers apart "like a Morning Glory flower."
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Old 03-07-2012, 06:33 PM   #61
HL1978
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Try both and see what happens. I was at an internal strength a few years back where we did exactly that.....
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:30 PM   #62
roadtoad
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

you might not know that there is a 'ki gland', in the hand, about a half inch below and between the fourth and fifth fingers. You can look it up in medical journals.
This gland helps increase your ki when you open your fingers. Also, opening the fingers weakens the hand, but strengthens the arm. Your 'unbendable arm' block should be with the arm.
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:48 PM   #63
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
you might not know that there is a 'ki gland', in the hand, about a half inch below and between the fourth and fifth fingers. You can look it up in medical journals.
This gland helps increase your ki when you open your fingers. Also, opening the fingers weakens the hand, but strengthens the arm. Your 'unbendable arm' block should be with the arm.
A ki gland? Seriously?
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Old 03-08-2012, 08:42 PM   #64
Mario Tobias
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

As I remember, Shioda sensei in his book "Mastering AIkido" mentions to open up the fingers strongly in the opening pages of the book, part of kamae.
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Old 03-09-2012, 04:43 AM   #65
sakumeikan
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
you might not know that there is a 'ki gland', in the hand, about a half inch below and between the fourth and fifth fingers. You can look it up in medical journals.
This gland helps increase your ki when you open your fingers. Also, opening the fingers weakens the hand, but strengthens the arm. Your 'unbendable arm' block should be with the arm.
Dear Ike,
Can you tell me where you learned this gem of info ie Ki gland? What medical journal has this info? Be specific and tell us where to find this reference.May I ask how does opening the fingers weaken the hand/strengthens arm?Please also expand on the subject of unbendable arm.I await your reply with much anticipation. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 03-09-2012, 06:22 AM   #66
chillzATL
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Ike,
Can you tell me where you learned this gem of info ie Ki gland? What medical journal has this info? Be specific and tell us where to find this reference.May I ask how does opening the fingers weaken the hand/strengthens arm?Please also expand on the subject of unbendable arm.I await your reply with much anticipation. Cheers, Joe.
<phi moment>

I found a place downtown that will express your ki gland for 50 bucks. It takes a few visits before they offer you this service, but you wanna talk about relaxed and that's what aikido is all about right? right???

</phi moment>
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Old 03-09-2012, 06:27 AM   #67
phitruong
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
A ki gland? Seriously?
i am surprised that you have not heard of the ki gland. it's similar to the aikidunot gland, near the wtf gland which runs up the middle finger, and just right above the hokeypokey gland.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 03-09-2012, 06:29 AM   #68
chillzATL
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Try both and see what happens. I was at an internal strength a few years back where we did exactly that.....
what was your take-away from that? This is also how I came to see the value of hand open. We were doing static pushes and it was fairly obvious which was the stronger of the two.
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Old 03-09-2012, 07:28 AM   #69
roadtoad
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

If you study an acupuncture chart, the ki, or chi, gland is at Triple warmer 4.
A similar point for the legs is UB 58, which is the he-she (that's not english) point for the triple warmer in the legs.
The use of this point may help explain why so much seiza training was used in earlier Aikido training.
The triple warmer is the only acupuncture channel which has no equivilent in western medicine.
Its used to requlated your 'internal weather', the chest is hot, mid body warm, lower body, cool,
When you mix them together, you get a balance of energy. A balance of yin/yang, if you like.
The nearest equivilent in western medicine is the hypothalamus.
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:19 AM   #70
Michael Douglas
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

...I kept seeing this thread in the top of the 'today's topics' list, and it had me wondering.
Most times when I see what looks to me like worthwhile Aikido on video, the (ungripping) Nage's hands are splayed and stiff (yes they are, yes they are), and personally I can't see too much goodness in closed fingers (in Aikido) so I was thinking "what's so fascinating that stretched this done deal to three pages long?"

Now I see it!

KI GLANDS

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Old 03-09-2012, 11:18 AM   #71
roadtoad
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Too many people are being way too sarcastic here. If there's even one serious person left out there, I could explain a lot more, but I can't give you any more references than I already have, most of this stuff is ingrained into me, I can't remember where I learned a lot of it. I'm a 72 year old, half senile old croaker, you'll have to do a lot of your own study.
Besides the five years in Japan, I spent way more time with chinese styles and daoism, in taiwan, vietnam and america. Not to mention korea and thailand.
Also I was raised on an indian reservation, and started with native indian martial arts.
So, if you're a straight aikidoka, a lot of my explanations might be hard, if not nearly impossible, to follow.
It would be easier if you'd give me some of your background, and something of your personal philosophies, so I would know how better to reach you.
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:40 AM   #72
gregstec
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
Too many people are being way too sarcastic here. If there's even one serious person left out there, I could explain a lot more, but I can't give you any more references than I already have, most of this stuff is ingrained into me, I can't remember where I learned a lot of it. I'm a 72 year old, half senile old croaker, you'll have to do a lot of your own study.
Besides the five years in Japan, I spent way more time with chinese styles and daoism, in taiwan, vietnam and america. Not to mention korea and thailand.
Also I was raised on an indian reservation, and started with native indian martial arts.
So, if you're a straight aikidoka, a lot of my explanations might be hard, if not nearly impossible, to follow.
It would be easier if you'd give me some of your background, and something of your personal philosophies, so I would know how better to reach you.
Hi Ike, welcome to Aikiweb. I think most of the sarcasm is being driven by your use of the term 'ki gland' - most people refer to those locations in the body as ki or qi "points" along the qi meridians as found in Traditional Chinese medicine. Also, there is a large percentage of Aikidoka that do not view ki or qi as being all that important to their Aikido. I would call it a point as well and not a gland, but I knew what you were talking about - there is a ki point at that location in the hand - I believe the Chinese call it the Laogong point.

Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 03-09-2012 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 03-09-2012, 04:06 PM   #73
sakumeikan
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Quote:
Ike Spenser wrote: View Post
Too many people are being way too sarcastic here. If there's even one serious person left out there, I could explain a lot more, but I can't give you any more references than I already have, most of this stuff is ingrained into me, I can't remember where I learned a lot of it. I'm a 72 year old, half senile old croaker, you'll have to do a lot of your own study.
Besides the five years in Japan, I spent way more time with chinese styles and daoism, in taiwan, vietnam and america. Not to mention korea and thailand.
Also I was raised on an indian reservation, and started with native indian martial arts.
So, if you're a straight aikidoka, a lot of my explanations might be hard, if not nearly impossible, to follow.
It would be easier if you'd give me some of your background, and something of your personal philosophies, so I would know how better to reach you.
Dear Ike,
I seem to recall a gent from Martial Arts Planet who appears to be a carbon copy of your goodself.Have you a twin or am I correct here?The gent on M.A.P. got a lot of stick from guys on M.A.P.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:29 PM   #74
HL1978
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
what was your take-away from that? This is also how I came to see the value of hand open. We were doing static pushes and it was fairly obvious which was the stronger of the two.
If you subscribe to Mike Sigmans suit model, spreading the fingers engages more of the suit, rather than just more musclar tension.

For stuff like this, I say just try it out rather than speculate, in particular as this doesnt seem to require lots of conditioning.
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Old 03-10-2012, 12:23 AM   #75
roadtoad
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Re: Fingers spread or together?

yeah, that's me, who else?
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