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Old 03-02-2012, 04:52 PM   #51
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
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Re: goals

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Writing about leading and following is a challenge since they have to be referred to separately, when in fact they occur simultaneously, no matter which side of the equation you're on.

Ron
I am both led and I follow you. Nicely put.

Peace.G.
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Old 03-02-2012, 05:43 PM   #52
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
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Re: goals

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post

ps ok, well... what if he does not? What's plan B?
Plan B isn't available over-the-counter so stick with Plan A and tell him he needs protection or no Plan at all!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 03-02-2012, 05:47 PM   #53
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
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Re: goals

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
As Kevin Choate Sensei has said: listen, and uke will tell you how he wants to be thrown.
what if you have hearing problem and uke was mumbling? would you just go ahead and throw uke however way you please anyway? what if you use the loud air horn thingy right before you throw uke, would that still fit the goal?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:17 AM   #54
Gary David
 
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Re: goals

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Writing about leading and following is a challenge since they have to be referred to separately, when in fact they occur simultaneously, no matter which side of the equation you're on.

Ron
Ron
How do you folks practice, how do you structure your practice, to handle folks who will not follow? How do you make two centers one that the other person will not deliver or give it to you? One has to work at acquiring the other center to the result of lead/follow as one....which is not really lead follow, but rather the other being part of the one that is you moving as you move. Once centers are one and your is the mover, your movement is without regard to the other. Leading and following seems to be preliminary practice, which doesn't work without the other giving you more of themselves than they keep. Moving against folks who are contained within themselves and move as you move without giving you their center.......how do you practice acquiring the other center so you can move without regard to any resistance?
Thanks
Gary
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Old 03-03-2012, 02:03 PM   #55
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
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Re: goals

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
How do you folks practice, how do you structure your practice, to handle folks who will not follow?
Hi Gary -

Let's say we are practicing shomen uchi kokyu nage. Uke strikes, slipping the blow I enter outside his striking hand and move to his hind quarter on that side. We are now facing roughly the same direction with me slightly behind him. Now if uke just stands there waiting for me to do something I might just walk away, give him a "Jethro slap" on the back of his head or execute a technique. No leading/following is involved and this is not the manner in which we practice.

Uke, finding himself in a compromised position has a responsibility to come and find me to continue with his attack. As he moves he begins to follow where I have gone, but because I am not trying to "control" him his movements will not necessarily follow a predefined path. So while I have led him to move by virtue of having evaded his strike, he is leading me since I will now move so as to avoid a non-tangential intersection of our paths. The actual technique will appear as a result of our combined motions. The continuous cycle of simultaneous leading/following by both partners characterizes our practice.

Our practice is dynamic in that it's not of the "hit (grab), stop, wait" variety. Hits (grabs) evaded or otherwise thwarted necessitate continued efforts by uke to press the attack.

This is from my blog:

"We practice in a cooperative training environment. When I train with a partner we enter into an agreement to abide by the structure of the exercise in order that we may both derive the benefits afforded us by the practice. The agreement is simple.

If we are practicing say, shomen uchi kokyu nage, I as uke agree to attack with a shomen strike and not a yokomen strike or katate tori. I agree to attack and, when nage moves, follow in order to continue attacking. As uke I agree to attack without foresight, that is, to attack where nage is and not where I know he's going to be. When practicing static grabs I agree to regulate the power of my attack and operate within nage's ability to receive and deal with that power, regardless of nage's rank.

If I'm not thrown I don't fall. If my balance isn't compromised I keep it. If nage leaves openings I do not ignore them.

As nage I agree to regulate the power of my technique and operate within uke's ability to take ukemi, regardless of uke's rank. I agree to execute the technique we are practicing. I agree to move without foresight, to present a tangible target for uke's strike or grab. I agree to respect the energy uke is putting into the attack and treat the attack with the same seriousness as I would if there was real ill intent behind it.

If I don't follow through on my throw I expect uke not to fall. If I don't disturb uke's balance I expect him to keep it. If I leave openings I expect them to be exploited."

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
How do you make two centers one that the other person will not deliver or give it to you?
I never expect the gift of another person's center being willingly given to me. Nor do I look to take (read control) his center. I'm looking for connection. We make these kinds of connections every day although we may not be aware of the occurrences until later, upon reflection. For instance, you and I are forming a connection here on AikiWeb. Although our interaction is both geographically and temporally separated we are nevertheless entangled. Have you never made eye contact with another person across a room and felt it go right to your core? Have you felt the connection with your uke on those occasions when you executed that effortless technique that seemed to rise from nowhere? The point is that I can connect with uke independently of his willingness/unwillingness to connect with me.

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Leading and following seems to be preliminary practice, which doesn't work without the other giving you more of themselves than they keep.
Let go of the idea that leading and following are separate processes.

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Moving against folks who are contained within themselves and move as you move without giving you their center.......how do you practice acquiring the other center so you can move without regard to any resistance?
In my practice I don't move against uke and I'm not interested in acquiring uke's center, just connecting with it.

Best,

Ron

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Old 03-03-2012, 05:29 PM   #56
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: goals

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Ron
How do you folks practice, how do you structure your practice, to handle folks who will not follow? How do you make two centers one that the other person will not deliver or give it to you? One has to work at acquiring the other center to the result of lead/follow as one....which is not really lead follow, but rather the other being part of the one that is you moving as you move. Once centers are one and your is the mover, your movement is without regard to the other. Leading and following seems to be preliminary practice, which doesn't work without the other giving you more of themselves than they keep. Moving against folks who are contained within themselves and move as you move without giving you their center.......how do you practice acquiring the other center so you can move without regard to any resistance?
Thanks
Gary
Hi Gary:

I just wanted to add my 2 cents.

If uke does not follow, nage must relax more, extend more and lead more to make up for what uke is not providing.

Two centers become one though the process, we don't make it happen. We let Aikido happen.
I always regard uke when I am nage...it is my job to take care of uke.

When I feel uke's resistance, I again, relax more, blend more and give what uke lacks.

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Old 03-03-2012, 08:53 PM   #57
Gary David
 
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Re: goals

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Hi Gary:

I just wanted to add my 2 cents.

If uke does not follow, nage must relax more, extend more and lead more to make up for what uke is not providing.

Two centers become one though the process, we don't make it happen. We let Aikido happen.
I always regard uke when I am nage...it is my job to take care of uke.

When I feel uke's resistance, I again, relax more, blend more and give what uke lacks.
Mary
Thank you and Ron for explaining your approach, it is one I have touched on several times in my journey and was similar to the standard approach taken by the Tohei based organization we belonged to back in the day. I will have to say it was not exactly the primary approach used in our dojo.

My current view is find the attackers center, take it and then do something with it. What I am striving for now....using your original exercise with uke grabbing both wrists would be to move in using aiki age, the move so clean that uke does't feel it and is destabilized before even knowing it has happened. I have to relax and relax some more before even moving....there should not be a sense of any resistance beyond awareness. If I have to relax some more after registering resistance....then I have added tension to my own movements......maybe losing the others center or moving into a muscular resolution. anyway that is were I am trying to go. This has been done to me so I know it can happen...making it so is the hard part.

Have fun

Gary
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