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Old 03-01-2012, 09:39 AM   #76
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Well, maybe Andrew can explain what Ueshiba meant. IIRC he (Andrew) said he has read the Kojiki, the Nihon Shoki and the Oomoto-kyo doctrine.

Surely his explanation is worth reading.

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Old 03-01-2012, 10:38 AM   #77
mathewjgano
 
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
A founders vision, this martial art is not for leading the world into destruction by the piling up of weapons, But a way to reconcile the worlds differences, indeed Aikido full fills religion, and can purify the hearts and minds of the aggressor.

If the Aikido world as it seems cannot buy into. Share a vision of this possibility, Willing to accept there is indeed another way that is not based in constant competition with one another, then I do ask the question. What's the point of practicing it?

It becomes empty, empty practice,empty words, and we become empty.

I really don't have much more to say on the competitive mind, it's obvious to me and a few others the degradation that it causes and must be curbed or stopped altogether, by saying no more, each one of us, no more.

No you cannot change people, if they truly don't want to, then it must be our job as a human being, to stop the madnes the insanity and cruelty ourselves, starting today with ourselves, and pray to whoever god you believe in that it works, because we can see from history, more violence does not cut it either.
Change can only come from the individual, simply saying, No more, enough is enough, I think O' sensei said this to terry Dobson, when discussing weight training. No Terry enough is enough, no more.

In Budo

Andy B
I've been itching to post on this because I think it's a facinating topic in a variety of ways. I agree with the idea that many people are "too competitive" and that the world would be a much nicer place if people worked together more. To me it's simple math that resources working together add up to more than resources working against each other. That's over-simplified compared to reality, but I'm confident in it as a rule of thumb.
Competition is neither good or bad on its own. It's a fact of life and while being part of the negative situations you've described, it's not the competition that makes them negative. Competition is kind of like the car that you drive to go do something: what you choose to do is still left to be decided; the car just helps you get there. It is human nature to be self-centered and hoard resources. It is human nature to be social and share. If we didn't look out for ourselves, we wouldn't have a society to look out for also. If we weren't social, we wouldn't be the dominant species on the planet (i.e. we wouldn't have the success we generally do), and we as individuals would be rather ineffectual.
Yes, people compete as a matter of habit and that can be troublesome, but people also practice avoidance or subservience as a matter of habit, and that can be just as bad in its own way. So I wouldn't say one ought be non-competitive so much as autonomous and kind. I love competition when it's done in a fun, caring atmosphere. It's the caring that makes the difference, not the competition...in my opinion.
Take care,
Matt
p.s. As regards "Harmonization" in Aikido: my understanding, coming somewhat from a Jinja Shinto perspective, is that we ought harmonize with Great Nature. We harmonize with Daishizen in order to reveal the smaller "truths" by comparison.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 03-01-2012 at 10:46 AM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-01-2012, 11:50 AM   #78
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Yeah, like Matthew... I'll bite...

First, I think we are really talking about the role of "sport", not "competition". Competition is a necessary part of all life, a theory put forth by Mr. Darwin. Sport is a luxury of pastime and not germane to the survival of life. To argue humans should be less competitive would be at some level in conflict with the theory of evolution. However, the use of "competition" and "sport" have become synonymous, even though there is a difference.

This world holds a limited number of resources, each life within the world driven to accumulate that which it needs to survive. It is only a recent development that humans have become so successful at acquiring what they need to survive they may acquire excess in both resources and time. In fact, so recent is the reality of this transition as there are still many individuals within cultures and cultures themselves that are not successful in this endeavor.

Budo is about resolution, not competition. I believe the spirit in which O Sensei spoke against competition was actually an admonishment for turning aikido into a pastime activity of contention. I contend that aikido is not sport. But I also contend that competition is about acquiring that which you need, even if the resource is limited. Winning and losing are labels for sport. For me, "non-competition" is like saying, "try not to acquire that which you need." If you have a need, you must to commit to satisfy the need; competition will determine if you are successful or not (i.e. no one starves to death by choice; rather, we starve by an inability to acquire [sufficient] food).

Most of us are fortunate to live within cultures where needs are typically satisfied. I can purchase my rice from a grocery store instead of contending with the local druglord's .50 cal machine gun anchored to the back of a truck stationed at my local food depot. I can let someone take the last bag of rice because there are beans in the next isle. I will not starve because I have no need for excess food. Likewise, to argue that we should be less competitive is an argument based upon the assertion that we do not have [the need] to use our aikido to protect ourselves. The superficiality of the argument disqualifies this statement (to be non-competitive) as budo.

Budo is a challenge to become better. It is a method of resolving that within you that is at conflict. As a point of argument, the very nature of our choice to train aikido was likely one of competition. When we walked through the door for the first time, did we not, on some level, deem ourselves in need of something (presumably aikido)? What was it about aikido that made it a better choice then tai chi, yoga, karate, or any number of other endeavors that competed to claim resolution to your need? Did karate "lose" because you chose to train aikido? Did aikido "win" your commitment?

Last edited by jonreading : 03-01-2012 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 03-01-2012, 05:04 PM   #79
graham christian
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Nice 'words' to do with competition and how natural it is but is it true?

Look around yourself even at things, look around yourself at the people you met today or ones you know, look around yourself at what happens at work.

If you actually look you will find competing, operating from the competitive mind, is completely crazy. It always leads to trouble and always makes things harder and generally makes things worse, in fact it always does.

This is different to a specialized arena. Thus we have sports and games and that's where it's a jointly agreed upon activity given rules of play.

I see people at work competing with things even and suffering the consequences. A builder who is trying to do something, like say remove a screw or hang a door or whatever. If it's a bit troublesome and he decides to look at it as the door is opposing him he then starts swearing at it and blaming it and trying to force it and ouch!!! Yeah, something 'bad' happens. He caused it, yet he blames the door. Crazy

If you work in an office or environment with people working closely together and there's that one who is always trying to show they are better, to impress the boss, to do all kind of annoying things and then act innocent, all kinds of methods. Oh the competitive mind. This person thus has to prove and therefor proving to the boss how 'bad' the others are become all part of the game. Lies become useful to this end. On and on. This fellow or woman is heading for a good beating or come uppance, after annoying and possibly destroying a few lives on the way of course. Oh the competitve mind.

Do you compete with the pavement you walk on, see it as an enemy? Do you walk around seeing others as enemies? In fact rather than do you the better question would be where do you? for in that part of life you are to that degree neurotic or paranoid to that extent, fearful of, thus suffering due to a viewpoint of your own. Then you can walk around and gather instances of things happening that justify you holding on to that viewpoint. Oh the competitive mind.

It's not human nature it's human insanity based on human lack of awareness.

When a person realizes just how stupid or mad the competitive mind is and just how stupid they have been following it then they can start growing spiritually and in awareness and even become a comfortable person to be around.

Regards.G.
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Old 03-01-2012, 06:00 PM   #80
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Nice 'words' to do with competition and how natural it is but is it true?

Look around yourself even at things, look around yourself at the people you met today or ones you know, look around yourself at what happens at work.
If you actually look you will find competing, operating from the competitive mind, is completely crazy. It always leads to trouble and always makes things harder and generally makes things worse, in fact it always does.

This is different to a specialized arena. Thus we have sports and games and that's where it's a jointly agreed upon activity given rules of play.
I disagree with "always." I do look around; I do "actually look" and see ridiculous examples of competition all the time. In fact many of my oldest posts here involve me making the case against competition in general. Still, simply put, forms of competition are good, and I'm not just talking about sports and games.

Quote:
I see people at work competing with things even and suffering the consequences. A builder who is trying to do something, like say remove a screw or hang a door or whatever. If it's a bit troublesome and he decides to look at it as the door is opposing him he then starts swearing at it and blaming it and trying to force it and ouch!!! Yeah, something 'bad' happens. He caused it, yet he blames the door. Crazy
I've been in a similar situation, where I viewed the installation as a competition between myself and it. The difference is that when I was frustrated I didn't let it cause me to lose control. Competition doesn't necessitate animonsity. The problem here is animosity, not a competitive mindset. In other jobs I've competed with my co-wokers. I held no animosity for them whether or not I "beat" their pace. I was competing to the benefit of us all.

Quote:
If you work in an office or environment with people working closely together and there's that one who is always trying to show they are better, to impress the boss, to do all kind of annoying things and then act innocent, all kinds of methods. Oh the competitive mind. This person thus has to prove and therefor proving to the boss how 'bad' the others are become all part of the game. Lies become useful to this end. On and on. This fellow or woman is heading for a good beating or come uppance, after annoying and possibly destroying a few lives on the way of course. Oh the competitve mind.
Again, I don't see those as the necessary product of competitiveness. Insecurity and selfishness, maybe. You seem to think that being competitive means you're always working to detract from others' situations or goals. That is only the cheap variety of competitiveness. The good stuff is where it's done while actually caring about the other guy; in ways that pushes all to apply themselves to their highest abilities. In my opinion the best competition is the kind which inspires an understanding of "Masakatsu Agatsu," and that is not relegated merely to sports and games, but rather pertains to something considerably more wide-reaching.
Take care,
Mat

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-01-2012, 06:45 PM   #81
graham christian
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I disagree with "always." I do look around; I do "actually look" and see ridiculous examples of competition all the time. In fact many of my oldest posts here involve me making the case against competition in general. Still, simply put, forms of competition are good, and I'm not just talking about sports and games.

I've been in a similar situation, where I viewed the installation as a competition between myself and it. The difference is that when I was frustrated I didn't let it cause me to lose control. Competition doesn't necessitate animonsity. The problem here is animosity, not a competitive mindset. In other jobs I've competed with my co-wokers. I held no animosity for them whether or not I "beat" their pace. I was competing to the benefit of us all.

Again, I don't see those as the necessary product of competitiveness. Insecurity and selfishness, maybe. You seem to think that being competitive means you're always working to detract from others' situations or goals. That is only the cheap variety of competitiveness. The good stuff is where it's done while actually caring about the other guy; in ways that pushes all to apply themselves to their highest abilities. In my opinion the best competition is the kind which inspires an understanding of "Masakatsu Agatsu," and that is not relegated merely to sports and games, but rather pertains to something considerably more wide-reaching.
Take care,
Mat
I see you disagree in the first paragraph but I don't see examples of where it is good.

You say competive mind doesn't mean animosity. In that example given I don't say it means it but it is the cause of it. Without the competive mind there cannot be animosity. If you controlled that mind and found that then you were not using animosity then that shows that you were not competing at that point. It also shows that if you didn;t control it then you would be in a state of animosity towards.

I am saying the competitive mind leads to, causes all those things. The competitive mind cannot lead to masakatsu and agatsu for it bars true understanding. Caring I agree with for without it there can be no Aikido and actually caring removes the competitive mind. So the truth is that he who uses the competitive mind does not care but merely justifies it's use.

To push someone to apply their self to their highest ability done with care is an act of kindness and has no competition in it. To push through a barrier is not an act of competition but an act of courage and if you are being helped by another to do so then you are being supported by their faith in you.

All good. Thus the competitive mind is merely a trap, atrap that works to the degree you agree with it and adopt it. A self defeating mind. A mind that has already lost.

The five minds of budo, the five spirits of budo have no competition in them.

May all reach senshin.

Peace. G.

Last edited by graham christian : 03-01-2012 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 03-01-2012, 10:45 PM   #82
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

there are many examples. Communism based on Marxism attempted to put some good theories together to eliminate competition, yet in the end people work to screw each other over. Yes, you could say it is because of the competitive mine of the individual and I would agree. So how do you change that?

Capitalism is based on communism coupled with democracy embraces the competitive mind and works with it. It actually works because it encourages a natural instinct in people to work together to win. Sure in theory it would be nice to get people to work together, but that requires a degree of altruism that simply does not exsist.

Competition or a competitive environment can create a situation in which it is advantageous for people to work together. We do it all the time in the Military in basic training and it specialized training in Special ops.

Personally, I believe, as Jon stated that Aikido is not so much about eliminating the competitive mind, but recognizing that it exsist and using a process for us to deal with the realities of human nature, not to try and change it globally. As I have stated earlier, Aikido is about self and embrace what is human.

You already know that greed and corruption are bad. We all know that. So how do you stop it? How to you create the conditions and space necessary to help others that are so lost see that there are alternatives?

Aikido iand budo s about solutions, not theory.

So let's agree that this competition is bad as defined as corruption, greed, and oppression. Can you agree that the human mind is, well human?

If so, then how do you work with it? How does Aikido work to change people from greed to cooperation and a more peaceful do existence? What is it in budo or Aikido that can lead to that? Why is it unique? What does it offer that everything else fails?

Let's stop arguing about the definition, agree that suffering is wrong, and talk a little more concrete on how budo alleviates it.

I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree. On the right street, but the cat is in another tree. Not the macro topic of competition or competive mind.

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Old 03-02-2012, 06:22 AM   #83
Marc Abrams
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
there are many examples. Communism based on Marxism attempted to put some good theories together to eliminate competition, yet in the end people work to screw each other over. Yes, you could say it is because of the competitive mine of the individual and I would agree. So how do you change that?

Capitalism is based on communism coupled with democracy embraces the competitive mind and works with it. It actually works because it encourages a natural instinct in people to work together to win. Sure in theory it would be nice to get people to work together, but that requires a degree of altruism that simply does not exsist.

Competition or a competitive environment can create a situation in which it is advantageous for people to work together. We do it all the time in the Military in basic training and it specialized training in Special ops.

Personally, I believe, as Jon stated that Aikido is not so much about eliminating the competitive mind, but recognizing that it exsist and using a process for us to deal with the realities of human nature, not to try and change it globally. As I have stated earlier, Aikido is about self and embrace what is human.

You already know that greed and corruption are bad. We all know that. So how do you stop it? How to you create the conditions and space necessary to help others that are so lost see that there are alternatives?

Aikido iand budo s about solutions, not theory.

So let's agree that this competition is bad as defined as corruption, greed, and oppression. Can you agree that the human mind is, well human?

If so, then how do you work with it? How does Aikido work to change people from greed to cooperation and a more peaceful do existence? What is it in budo or Aikido that can lead to that? Why is it unique? What does it offer that everything else fails?

Let's stop arguing about the definition, agree that suffering is wrong, and talk a little more concrete on how budo alleviates it.

I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree. On the right street, but the cat is in another tree. Not the macro topic of competition or competive mind.
Kevin:

Don't you think that you are being too hard on them? The tree that they are playing with is not that high, has a step-ladder built into it, etc... The comforts of that tree make masakatsu and agatsu to become self-evident to all. Your invitation and mine to allow them to try the other trees in places like Homs, Afghanistan, a bunch of places in Africa, southeast Asia, etc., now that is simply being too hard on them.

Whereas we all do not have to go to those places to wake up to a larger, more nuanced and ugly set of realities, we should at least be honest enough to ourselves and others as to the significant limits inherent in many of our ideas and practices.

Comments like Graham's have quite the hollow ring to them:
When a person realizes just how stupid or mad the competitive mind is and just how stupid they have been following it then they can start growing spiritually and in awareness and even become a comfortable person to be around.

Quite a judgmental statement from an allegedly spiritual, comfortable person.

An equivalent to my world is when I talk to couples about strength in a relationship. I talk about that strength as not being evident in how well they get along, but in how well they fight with one another.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-02-2012, 08:44 AM   #84
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

It really is the same theme or trend that we see with the whole IS/IT debate. Everyone will talk conceptually about how it should work, the theories etc...but when asked the tough questions about application, or to definitively explain the technical pieces of how you do something...you typically get crickets chriping...or at best a revised problem statement that attempts to shift the focus.

A simple question I ask really. How does Aikido reduce or eliminate the competitive mind or reduce suffering?

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Old 03-02-2012, 08:47 AM   #85
graham christian
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
there are many examples. Communism based on Marxism attempted to put some good theories together to eliminate competition, yet in the end people work to screw each other over. Yes, you could say it is because of the competitive mine of the individual and I would agree. So how do you change that?

Capitalism is based on communism coupled with democracy embraces the competitive mind and works with it. It actually works because it encourages a natural instinct in people to work together to win. Sure in theory it would be nice to get people to work together, but that requires a degree of altruism that simply does not exsist.

Competition or a competitive environment can create a situation in which it is advantageous for people to work together. We do it all the time in the Military in basic training and it specialized training in Special ops.

Personally, I believe, as Jon stated that Aikido is not so much about eliminating the competitive mind, but recognizing that it exsist and using a process for us to deal with the realities of human nature, not to try and change it globally. As I have stated earlier, Aikido is about self and embrace what is human.

You already know that greed and corruption are bad. We all know that. So how do you stop it? How to you create the conditions and space necessary to help others that are so lost see that there are alternatives?

Aikido iand budo s about solutions, not theory.

So let's agree that this competition is bad as defined as corruption, greed, and oppression. Can you agree that the human mind is, well human?

If so, then how do you work with it? How does Aikido work to change people from greed to cooperation and a more peaceful do existence? What is it in budo or Aikido that can lead to that? Why is it unique? What does it offer that everything else fails?

Let's stop arguing about the definition, agree that suffering is wrong, and talk a little more concrete on how budo alleviates it.

I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree. On the right street, but the cat is in another tree. Not the macro topic of competition or competive mind.
Hi Kevin.
Concrete on how budo alleviates it? Love to. Unfortunately I find debating with someone who believes in budo the way you do for example means that you would have to understand and accept the way and type of budo I believe in. When we understand each others budo then debate can ensue.

Unfortunately we both understand your type of budo yet it's not reciprocated. All I see is false understandings, just like in the post above, where a standard courageous view in the buddhist world or indeed any religious world or spiritual pursuit knows and calls the competitive mind crazy and stupid and worse than that even. Yet another not aware of these views understanding wise will then take that statement as some kind of judgemental something or other.

Statements like cat is in another tree show we are not 'on the same page'.

Here's the thing, the views I express and others of similar perspective, are concrete. They are not accepted by some as concrete thus not seen as real. Therein lies the problems in discussion.

That's all really.

Regards.G.
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Old 03-02-2012, 08:55 AM   #86
graham christian
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Kevin:

Don't you think that you are being too hard on them? The tree that they are playing with is not that high, has a step-ladder built into it, etc... The comforts of that tree make masakatsu and agatsu to become self-evident to all. Your invitation and mine to allow them to try the other trees in places like Homs, Afghanistan, a bunch of places in Africa, southeast Asia, etc., now that is simply being too hard on them.

Whereas we all do not have to go to those places to wake up to a larger, more nuanced and ugly set of realities, we should at least be honest enough to ourselves and others as to the significant limits inherent in many of our ideas and practices.

Comments like Graham's have quite the hollow ring to them:
When a person realizes just how stupid or mad the competitive mind is and just how stupid they have been following it then they can start growing spiritually and in awareness and even become a comfortable person to be around.

Quite a judgmental statement from an allegedly spiritual, comfortable person.

An equivalent to my world is when I talk to couples about strength in a relationship. I talk about that strength as not being evident in how well they get along, but in how well they fight with one another.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
Yes Marc, such is your perception. Nothings changed there. As I said above in my last post, the comments I make are real and concrete. Admitting stupidity is a real thing. Only ego hates it in my estimation.

Your world is yours but it seems to me you think therefor others world is wrong. Strength in relationships in my world is good communication and therefor arguments gradually dissappear.

Different.

Regards.G.
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Old 03-02-2012, 09:14 AM   #87
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Competitive:- Teaches

1. To set a goal
2. To improve your skills and performance to reach your goal
3. To exert whatever effort it takes to improve yourself
4. This teaches one that although you may not reach your goal, you can improve.
5. This proves that hard work and determination can take you farther than wishing and complaining

Non-competitive:- Teaches

1. To develop an attitude of entitlement.
2. To expect that the people putting forth an effort will take care of you
3. So there is an expectation that those who do nothing to improve themselves will be supported by those who do.
4. This teaches one how to create dependency.
5. This proves that everyone is equal and should have the same opportunities for advancement, regardless of qualifications or effort.

"Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men" - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Old 03-02-2012, 09:43 AM   #88
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Unfortunately I find debating with someone who believes in budo the way you do for example means that you would have to understand and accept the way and type of budo I believe in. When we understand each others budo then debate can ensue.

.
*scratching head (lice falling off)* if two persons understand each other view/belief, then what is the point of debating? might as well talking to yourself. by not accepting another person view/belief, isn't that where competitive start?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 03-02-2012, 09:55 AM   #89
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Quote:
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You say competive mind doesn't mean animosity. In that example given I don't say it means it but it is the cause of it. Without the competive mind there cannot be animosity.
You seem to have said it must cause animosity, I said it doesn't have to cause it. I said a competitive mind doesn't necessarily mean animosity is also present. You're saying it can cause animosity and that because of this, if we removed the competitive mindset, we could remove animosity, is this correct? I'm saying not all competition breeds animosity and so we only "need" to remove the parts that actually cause something negative.
We disagree about the nature of my mindset I described in work situations, but I maintain my mindset was competitive; I imagined the installation to be in a position of opposition. I defeated it. I won. I was a gracious winner and we remain friends to this day. Had I been defeated I would have had to own it, smile, and try something different...or get pissed off and then own it and try something different anyway. I still had a choice as to which one I fostered. I avoid animosity, so the competition I employ (i.e. applied compeititve mindset) tends to work out well for all involved. I compete with people up to a point. Sure past that point I'm trying to cooperate, but there is still competition involved. I am actively using a competitive mindset in these situations.
As with all things, when taken too far, they become unhealthy. In all things, balance.

Quote:
If you controlled that mind and found that then you were not using animosity then that shows that you were not competing at that point.
This presumes a person must have animosity in order to have a competitive mindset. Of course I disagree with that idea. I've been competing in one form or another my whole life. I've actively developed a competitive mindset in conjunction with my non-compeitive mindset so I bounce back and forth between being competitive and not, quite easily. Yes, if all I did was act competitively, it would be problematic at best...I believe this is called Oppositional Defiant Disorder. However, since I apply balance to my natural competitive behaviors, it's never been suggested I should have less animosity...if anything I've usually been told I'm too much of a nice guy.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-02-2012, 09:55 AM   #90
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Well, maybe Andrew can explain what Ueshiba meant. IIRC he (Andrew) said he has read the Kojiki, the Nihon Shoki and the Oomoto-kyo doctrine.

Surely his explanation is worth reading.
Dear Demetrio,
To have any meaningful answer that you would understand (not being funny here, but its true), I suggest first read the teaching`s, to grasp an understanding for yourself, follow the links below.

Kojiki:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/shi/kj/index.htm

Nihongi,

http://www.sacred-texts.com/shi/nihon0.htm

Reikai Monogatari Omoto`s spiritual texts

http://www2.plala.or.jp/wani-san/briefsummary.html

Anything you wish to ask afterwards feel free by all means, but at I feel, you may not need to ask.

In Budo

Andy B
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:00 AM   #91
graham christian
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
*scratching head (lice falling off)* if two persons understand each other view/belief, then what is the point of debating? might as well talking to yourself. by not accepting another person view/belief, isn't that where competitive start?
Don't wully, flied lice good for you......

By not accepting then yes that is a point where competitiveness starts.

I have met and talked to many martial artists but guess what, no arguments, no debates, yet an understanding of our different views.

Thus we discuss without contention. It's all good. Thus we learn from each other and part wishing each other well on our journeys.

A good debate is a discussion and a bad one is an argument I would say.

Regards.G.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:11 AM   #92
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
You seem to have said it must cause animosity, I said it doesn't have to cause it. I said a competitive mind doesn't necessarily mean animosity is also present. You're saying it can cause animosity and that because of this, if we removed the competitive mindset, we could remove animosity, is this correct? I'm saying not all competition breeds animosity and so we only "need" to remove the parts that actually cause something negative.
We disagree about the nature of my mindset I described in work situations, but I maintain my mindset was competitive; I imagined the installation to be in a position of opposition. I defeated it. I won. I was a gracious winner and we remain friends to this day. Had I been defeated I would have had to own it, smile, and try something different...or get pissed off and then own it and try something different anyway. I still had a choice as to which one I fostered. I avoid animosity, so the competition I employ (i.e. applied compeititve mindset) tends to work out well for all involved. I compete with people up to a point. Sure past that point I'm trying to cooperate, but there is still competition involved. I am actively using a competitive mindset in these situations.
As with all things, when taken too far, they become unhealthy. In all things, balance.

This presumes a person must have animosity in order to have a competitive mindset. Of course I disagree with that idea. I've been competing in one form or another my whole life. I've actively developed a competitive mindset in conjunction with my non-compeitive mindset so I bounce back and forth between being competitive and not, quite easily. Yes, if all I did was act competitively, it would be problematic at best...I believe this is called Oppositional Defiant Disorder. However, since I apply balance to my natural competitive behaviors, it's never been suggested I should have less animosity...if anything I've usually been told I'm too much of a nice guy.
That's good, it's your way and you find it works for you. It's definitely better than continuously being oppositional I agree and find those folks with that mindset thinking they are on some zealous mission.(in the name of some 'virtue' of course)

I merely present the view of 'without one'. A view attained or sought by many, buddhists being one example. Those who do so discover new views and in my experience then live an even more balanced life.

Thus we have differing views here yet the overall goal is the same.

Peace.G.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:21 AM   #93
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Kevin.
Concrete on how budo alleviates it? Love to. Unfortunately I find debating with someone who believes in budo the way you do for example means that you would have to understand and accept the way and type of budo I believe in. When we understand each others budo then debate can ensue.

Unfortunately we both understand your type of budo yet it's not reciprocated. All I see is false understandings, just like in the post above, where a standard courageous view in the buddhist world or indeed any religious world or spiritual pursuit knows and calls the competitive mind crazy and stupid and worse than that even. Yet another not aware of these views understanding wise will then take that statement as some kind of judgemental something or other.

Statements like cat is in another tree show we are not 'on the same page'.

Here's the thing, the views I express and others of similar perspective, are concrete. They are not accepted by some as concrete thus not seen as real. Therein lies the problems in discussion.

That's all really.

Regards.G.
Agreed, we are not on the same page. I accept that.

So, I ask for a clearer definition of the competitive mind. I offer the standard buddhist definition along the lines that life is suffering and desire/wants/cravings is what causes suffering....I got all that, I am a practicing buddhist BTW.

I see two distinct issues. Personal level of suffering and the manifestation of it in society or Societal.

Can you accept this as a definition of competitive mind? that is, on a personal level, that desires/wants/cravings cause suffering and the things that people do to act on them is the thing you are calling BAD...or the competitive mind?

If not, then please explain what you mean at the root level what the causes are of competitive mind so we can better understand the causations.

From there, we can then begin to discuss the various solutions on the spectrum. From mediation and other transformative processes.

And, yes, even the Dali Lama admits that sometimes violence is necessary in order to STOP violence if you take the time to listen to what he says. He understands the complex nature of things.

So, it isn't about if I agree to what your definition of budo is or isn't....it is about YOU giving examples or defining HOW your perspective provides solutions to the various problems on the spectrum.

So, again, I ask. How does the physical practice of aikido help us in alleviating suffering. How does practicing the "WAR WAY" or the "VIOLENCE of Marital Arts" help us in alleviating suffering and injustice in the world? How do we STOP Violence?

That is all that is being asked. It is a very simple question really.

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Old 03-02-2012, 10:34 AM   #94
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
That's good, it's your way and you find it works for you. It's definitely better than continuously being oppositional I agree and find those folks with that mindset thinking they are on some zealous mission.(in the name of some 'virtue' of course)

I merely present the view of 'without one'. A view attained or sought by many, buddhists being one example. Those who do so discover new views and in my experience then live an even more balanced life.

Thus we have differing views here yet the overall goal is the same.

Peace.G.
Fair enough sir! I just need to know...
did I win? (Kidding of course).
Cheers,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:47 AM   #95
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

exerpt from a speeh by the Dali Lama:

"I want to make it clear, however, that although I am deeply opposed to war, I am not advocating appeasement. It is often necessary to take a strong stand to counter unjust aggression. For instance, it is plain to all of us that the Second World War was entirely justified. It "saved civilization" from the tyranny of Nazi Germany, as Winston Churchill so aptly put it. In my view, the Korean War was also just, since it gave South Korea the chance of gradually developing democracy. But we can only judge whether or not a conflict was vindicated on moral grounds with hindsight."

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Old 03-02-2012, 10:52 AM   #96
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

Hindsight.

IMO, this is important. Budo gives us a chance to evaluate our actions as we do not have the luxury of hindsight when we must make a stand. Therefore, we must study violence in all it's forms in order to better understand the seriousness of our actions and to make the best informed decisions we can when the time comes for us to make those tough decisions. It may only be a split second we have to make that decision.

It is about walking tall (right) and carrying a big stick (might).

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Old 03-02-2012, 11:02 AM   #97
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

The Dali Lama on a plan of action to create world peace:

Disarmament can occur only within the context of new political and economic relationships. Before we consider this issue in detail, it is worth imagining the kind of peace process from which we would benefit most. This is fairly self - evident. First we should work on eliminating nuclear weapons, next, biological and chemical ones, then offensive arms, and finally, defensive ones. At the same time, to safeguard the peace, we should start developing in one or more global regions an international police force made up of equal number of members from each nation under a collective command. Eventually this force would cover the whole world."

The Dali Lama recognizes the need for people to defend and to hold people accountable for their actions. Another example, IMO, of the fact that Budo is a bridging strategy to World Peace. Who will do this? Who are the people that will participate and be WILLING to do the tough things that are required of a "world police force"? Who has the COURAGE to stand and say STOP?

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Old 03-02-2012, 11:10 AM   #98
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

My point of the Dali Lama posting is that even in Buddhism, the concept of defense is there. The Dali Lama recognizes the need for mitigation of violence.

So, the big question is the purpose of budo to eliminate the so-called competitive mind, or is the purpose of it to keep it in check or hold it accountable?

Another thought comes to mind. You may have a non-competitive mind and be completely enlightened and transformed...however, when you meet a competitive mind that is intent on competing with you...you are in a competition whether you recognize it or not. You may choose to NOT accept it, but the mere fact you establish a connection, relationship, or response...you are competing. Failure to recognize that means the competitive mind will impose his will on you and achieve his desired end state.

Even Ghandi in his pursuit of non-violent resistance was in competition for an ideal.

Again, right street, wrong tree on the whole focus on the competitive mind.

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Old 03-02-2012, 11:15 AM   #99
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Triangle Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Aikido fulfills religion? Which one? How?
Quote:
Which is really a key question that usually goes unasked.

Ueshiba did say, essentially, that Aikido fulfills religion - but defining just what he meant by that is probably more difficult than most people imagine when they toss it out there, and what he did mean is probably a little different than many imagine.

Best,

Chris -
Here is how.
Because they point to the eternal presence that is this moment. Aikido train`s this every time an attack is Initiated and delivered. what I am I talking about?

Uke has to be keenly in the present in this moment not to give away his intentions of which attack he is going to deliver. Tori has to be keenly present Also in this moment to be open to where the attack is coming from.

Tori can be so acutely aware of what is gong on right now that he can indeed control where uke attacks.

Now because Uke has to have a thought about attacking, Tori will see it usually well before the blow has struck, time stands still when your in the moment does it not?

Now tori can move circularly because he "sees" the movement of uke, he can now enter triangularly, stepping to uke`s third point (sankaku) to uke frontin this way he can simply step forward (with unbelievable power) push Uke`s chin up and backwards, destroying ukes balnce to his sankaku to the rear. This is the squaring of all things. this creates harmony, so nobody loses, you can choose piece in this moment.

Any body aware of what im talking about is Irimi nage, omote, stepping to the live side of uke, this is the most dangerous for tori, but with timing.

Now what does this appear to be pointing to?

Your both in the moment without no thought of past or future, no thought about him or me, no thought of, I wonder if I can make a competition out of this no. It is pointing to the reality that is this moment, and it is only in this moment we can choose peace, not tomorrow, net yesterday but now.

No religion teaches to be now, here in this moment. Most talk about fear, and you must do this or that ritual and follow these rules to get there (kingdom of heaven) or whatever they claim that will happen to you if you dont, it is fear of future, if you don`t not do these things.

Most religions talk about the oneness of being with god, finding god essence or however you address you particular denomination. but whatever they teach you to get there is not it either because it is always based in future. Then we have those religious leaders harking on about what htey and their religion did to us and our god is the true god ague fight compete for the right to say we are indeed right ;-)

They do not teach that actual peace can only come when you are silent enough to accept the situation you are in (no matter what that situation maybe) this moment, you can find peace because you are peace.
This is the lack that Aikido fulfills, this lack that is not taught in religion.And this is how Aikido Fulfills them, It is indeed hidden in plain sight.

Indeed, this teaches how be, non-competitive in a competitive world, and it is peace.

In Budo

Andy b




Last edited by akiy : 03-02-2012 at 12:44 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:36 AM   #100
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Re: How to be non-competitive in a competitive world

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Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
Quote:
Which is really a key question that usually goes unasked.

Ueshiba did say, essentially, that Aikido fulfills religion - but defining just what he meant by that is probably more difficult than most people imagine when they toss it out there, and what he did mean is probably a little different than many imagine.

Best,

Chris -
Here is how.
Because they point to the eternal presence that is this moment. Aikido train`s this every time an attack is Initiated and delivered. what I am I talking about?
Well, I understand what you're saying - but show me that Ueshiba said that as well.

Best,

Chris

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