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Old 02-29-2012, 01:55 AM   #26
graham christian
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Re: goals

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Nage earnestly leads. Uke sincerely follows. As nage outlines the path, a void is left for uke to fill. The motion and connection created is Aikido.

Uke grabs and holds tightly to nage's arm with both hands, katate tori ryote moche, offering energy for nage to perceive, move with and eventually throw uke. Listening to, really paying attention to, and honoring uke the earnest nage restores order. The throw is the by product. Often the throw is perceived as the goal. Instead the goal is the feeling of connection and harmony. The throw is the result of the connection and uke's loss of balance.

Attention. Acceptance. Gratitude.
I like the way this is put. Emphasis on the middle rather than the end.

Quote:
Perceive, move with.
As a golden rule we say there is no against in Aikido.

So we practice too perceiving and moving with and it is this that brings up the other questions and thus discovery of the other principles involved in Aikido. Ie: Move where? Do what with the opposing energy? Relationship to space? etc. etc.

Then through practice we find we hit plateaus, times where it doesn't matter who it is or what they are doing, hard or soft, fast or slow. These plateaus can also be different and thus new lessons are learned. For example when practicing one point over and over and over again I came to a point one day where I invited anyone to attack in any way they please and then on to multiple and nothing made any difference, it was all easy and it was all one point. This is going back a bit to when I was with my old teacher, but nonetheless it is an example of a plateau. Another time would be where the same happens and yet this time to you it all just a flow, yet another plateau.

So each plateau to me is a step taken gained through much practice. On the journey thus is much learned and a greater understanding of Aikido.

As we move off of those plateaus towards the next one we bump into more comlexities which through more training and good guidance we come to the next plateau and thus the next simplicity.

So overall, bit by bit it gets simpler and the definition of Aikido gets simpler too.

Finally we may say we know harmony and love and the way.

A brief description of 'how we roll' ha, ha.

Regards G.
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:30 AM   #27
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: goals

The snowy woods are very quiet...it reminds me of the moment when uke whispers to nage "go this way."

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Old 02-29-2012, 12:20 PM   #28
Mark Gibbons
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Re: goals

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
The snowy woods are very quiet...it reminds me of the moment when uke whispers to nage "go this way."
One reason I rarely post is that I like the quote above, but it only makes sense to me if instead nage whispers to uke. So I assume I'm an ignorant barbarian that just doesn't get it.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:26 PM   #29
lbb
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Re: goals

Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote: View Post
One reason I rarely post is that I like the quote above, but it only makes sense to me if instead nage whispers to uke.
When nage whispers to uke, or vice versa, I think it's time for the pair of 'em to get a room.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:36 PM   #30
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: goals

The whisper is when I perceive from my center the very subtle direction the grab is going...I feel it because in the silence I am paying attention. The stillness of the snowy woods has the same silent intensity.

Whisper is a metaphor....

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Old 02-29-2012, 01:56 PM   #31
Gary David
 
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Re: goals

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Nage earnestly leads. Uke sincerely follows. As nage outlines the path, a void is left for uke to fill. The motion and connection created is Aikido.
Mary
First let me say that you write beautiful poetry.......... having said that how does the 'what' that was first said above line up with what you last said below? If you are leading are you hearing but an echo of your lead?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
The whisper is when I perceive from my center the very subtle direction the grab is going...I feel it because in the silence I am paying attention. The stillness of the snowy woods has the same silent intensity.

Whisper is a metaphor....
just so

Gary
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Old 02-29-2012, 02:41 PM   #32
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: goals

Leading or following are the same when the centers connect in the stillness.

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Old 02-29-2012, 02:58 PM   #33
Gary David
 
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Re: goals

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Leading or following are the same when the centers connect in the stillness.
Mary
I think I understand where you want to go.......I would offer that if your center is connected to the others and you are the mover then no hints or whispers are needed as you move as one, only if there is a disconnect would you need the followup of hints and whispers to allow corrections to the connection.

And the ultimate goal here is to move in such a relaxed manner that added resistance/tension applied by the uke have no meaning to path/outcome. The problem that arises is that if you actually feel/sense whispers/hints you are likely to establish within yourself tensions that affect your relaxation/whole body....adding in elements of muscular activity to your movement........

Gary
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:27 PM   #34
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: goals

feeling the movement before the movement.....

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Old 02-29-2012, 06:07 PM   #35
Gary David
 
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Re: goals

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
feeling the movement before the movement.....
Wow sen sen no sen ........ I defer to you.... your understand and skill far exceed mine.......

gary
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:15 AM   #36
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: goals

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Uke sincerely follows.

Uke grabs and holds tightly.
Very well said.

ps ok, well... what if he does not? What's plan B?
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:08 AM   #37
kewms
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Re: goals

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Very well said.

ps ok, well... what if he does not? What's plan B?
If uke has a choice, you're doing it wrong.

Katherine
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:09 AM   #38
kewms
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Re: goals

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
The whisper is when I perceive from my center the very subtle direction the grab is going...I feel it because in the silence I am paying attention. The stillness of the snowy woods has the same silent intensity.

Whisper is a metaphor....
As Kevin Choate Sensei has said: listen, and uke will tell you how he wants to be thrown.

Katherine
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:11 AM   #39
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: goals

Endo Seishiro:
"Uke will inform you of such things."
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Old 03-01-2012, 03:17 AM   #40
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: goals

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
If uke has a choice, you're doing it wrong.

Katherine
Yes, I understand. In a perfect world, ukes have no choices, hold our wrists diligentely and never let them go as we move (or if we move, we are invariably endowed of a speed that ukes are not endowed with) and we beat them around at our will.

In the perfect fight, in the prefect tempest, uke has no choice. If uke stands a choice I am doing it wrong.

It is indeed regrettable that I am such a poor aikidoka that my ukes invariably have a variety of choices, unless I instruct them how not to have one.
I wish one day I can become so clever to be able to leave any uke whatsoever without even once single chance. I will keep training hard, hoping one day I will attain this amazing level of fighting capabilities, and be able to defeat anyone leaving them without even one single chance.

This aikido is amazing. Does not exist one single Martial Art where ukes have no choices, there is always a fight, always a struggle, always mutual opportunities. But with Aikido, we can attain that level where uke has no less than no choice.
Indeed, Aikido is beyond comparison. If you learn it porpperly, your foes will stand no choice ever.

I will redouble my efforts. I want to become like that. I will not succeed, but at least I know that it will be uniquely my fault, because Aiklido can serve you with such dishes: unbeatable.
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Old 03-01-2012, 03:19 AM   #41
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: goals

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Endo Seishiro:
"Uke will inform you of such things."
Boxing Manuals, page 1:
"Don't telegraph your punches, kid!"
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Old 03-01-2012, 03:45 AM   #42
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: goals

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Boxing Manuals, page 1:
"Don't telegraph your punches, kid!"
We're talking about different things.
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Old 03-01-2012, 06:06 AM   #43
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: goals

At some level, uke always has a choice. Read VIktor Frankl's writings. What I get out of it is at some level we can make a choice. In many instances uke may not physically be able to do anything to change the situation, but if his mind has not been captured, he still has the choice to resist in some fashion. Intent matters!

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Old 03-01-2012, 06:35 AM   #44
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Re: goals

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Yes, I understand. In a perfect world, ukes have no choices, hold our wrists diligentely and never let them go as we move (or if we move, we are invariably endowed of a speed that ukes are not endowed with) and we beat them around at our will.

In the perfect fight, in the prefect tempest, uke has no choice. If uke stands a choice I am doing it wrong.

It is indeed regrettable that I am such a poor aikidoka that my ukes invariably have a variety of choices, unless I instruct them how not to have one.
I wish one day I can become so clever to be able to leave any uke whatsoever without even once single chance. I will keep training hard, hoping one day I will attain this amazing level of fighting capabilities, and be able to defeat anyone leaving them without even one single chance.

This aikido is amazing. Does not exist one single Martial Art where ukes have no choices, there is always a fight, always a struggle, always mutual opportunities. But with Aikido, we can attain that level where uke has no less than no choice.
Indeed, Aikido is beyond comparison. If you learn it porpperly, your foes will stand no choice ever.

I will redouble my efforts. I want to become like that. I will not succeed, but at least I know that it will be uniquely my fault, because Aiklido can serve you with such dishes: unbeatable.
It's not a matter of uke not having a choice. It's more a matter of any choice he has will be wrong. It's giving them the choice of frying pan or fire.

"Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men" - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Old 03-01-2012, 07:06 AM   #45
Gary David
 
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Re: goals

Folks my last comment here........

In doing this art when centers are connected then one of the two parties involved will be in a destabilized or out of balance condition on their way to a fall, a pin, or something like that. If both parties are stable in their movement then ii is dance. When one the parties destabilizes themselves by double weighting to their attacking side or places their center outside of their base by choice or as a purposeful part of their attack they are giving themselves away. Up tempo dance.

just go straight

Gary
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Old 03-01-2012, 09:32 AM   #46
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: goals

My written description in the original post was about how the stillness of the woods reminded me of a particular exercise that I do. It is an awareness and perception exercise, not to be confused with real attacks.

Here is the exercise: Uke grabs both nage's wrists and holds with no agenda...just holds. Nage, by paying attention to their own center and the center of the connection between uke and nage can tell what way uke is moving and move in that direction themselves. If nage feels any of uke's resistance it is because nage has moved in a direction that uke is not moving in. Even though uke seems to be still, a direction can be perceived by nage if nage is patient and attentive.

Doing this excercise with the intention of developing a strong centered feeling creates a peacefulness in me that reminds me of the stillness of the snowy woods.

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Old 03-01-2012, 02:53 PM   #47
Gary David
 
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Re: goals

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
My written description in the original post was about how the stillness of the woods reminded me of a particular exercise that I do. It is an awareness and perception exercise, not to be confused with real attacks.

Here is the exercise: Uke grabs both nage's wrists and holds with no agenda...just holds. Nage, by paying attention to their own center and the center of the connection between uke and nage can tell what way uke is moving and move in that direction themselves. If nage feels any of uke's resistance it is because nage has moved in a direction that uke is not moving in. Even though uke seems to be still, a direction can be perceived by nage if nage is patient and attentive.

Doing this excercise with the intention of developing a strong centered feeling creates a peacefulness in me that reminds me of the stillness of the snowy woods.
Mary
I am good with this. Do you have an exercise that works from your side as nage....moving without uke perceiving the movement, moving with intention like water around the grab?
Thanks
Gary
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Old 03-01-2012, 04:55 PM   #48
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Re: goals

Quote:
Tom Quinn wrote: View Post
It's not a matter of uke not having a choice. It's more a matter of any choice he has will be wrong. It's giving them the choice of frying pan or fire.
I like this analysis.
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Old 03-01-2012, 07:28 PM   #49
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: goals

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Mary
I am good with this. Do you have an exercise that works from your side as nage....moving without uke perceiving the movement, moving with intention like water around the grab?
Thanks
Gary
Exactly...that happens when nage moves into uke's movement and uke loses balance. It is the same exercise.

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Old 03-01-2012, 09:54 PM   #50
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Re: goals

Writing about leading and following is a challenge since they have to be referred to separately, when in fact they occur simultaneously, no matter which side of the equation you're on.

Ron

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