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Old 02-26-2012, 01:14 PM   #26
Garth
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

Yes agreed,
If u never have been dominated in a competitive sport or had your eye closed up black from a fight or been raised in a non competitive aikido enviroment which is redundant as defined by the founder.
For u to conceptualize humility and a real conflict is damn near impossible

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:28 PM   #27
Marc Abrams
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
I learned something in my first hour of judo, that I never learned in my first three years of aikido: how to relax my shoulders, and use technique; that's 'competition' for you.

I train with someone who has trained aikido for fifteen (15) years (and in a 'soft' style, at that): he just tenses his arms, and tries to do the technique; put him in a BJJ class, and he'll learn in less than fifteen days how ineffective that is; and therein lies the virtue of honest feedback.
Graham Jenkins:

Take it one step further. There is a lot of underlying insecurity in many Aikidoka because they studiously avoided having their skill sets honestly evaluated. This insecurity manifests itself both physically and psychologically in so many ways. Just look at the passive-aggressive, sanctimonious comments from some. Look at the physical tensions when you really grab or strike them. Countless examples.... Too much reliance of competition is just as bad an not having your skill sets "pressure tested."

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Last edited by Marc Abrams : 02-26-2012 at 01:29 PM. Reason: add
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:38 PM   #28
graham christian
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
When Jigoro Kano created judo, he added a safe, non-compliant, 'competitive', method to test the techniques' effective; this was called randori.
Before judo, jujutsu was wholly 'martial', and competitons were frequently fatal.

Anyway, one day, the Tokyo police force held a contest between judo - people who trained in a 'sport', 'non-martial' fashion - and a jujutsu school - people who trained in a 'martial' way.
The judoka wiped the floor with the 'true martial artists', and the Tokyo Metropolitan Police had judo taight to their officers.

True story.

Then there's Brazilian Jiu Jitsu: the Gracies took on all-comers for decades, defeating people who trained compliantly in teh De4dly techniques.
You wouldn't last thirty seconds with a jiu-jitsuka: deal with it.
Now, now. Getting personal once again. Relax, breath....

Last year or so in Birmingham I think at the exhibition center a group of 'martial artists' doing a seminar of some kind ended up fighting with some wwf wrestlers in the bar and got wiped out too. Very funny.

Some older guy in the pub wiped out a scottish national champion martial artist who was 'debt collecting' for some thug firm from his brother. The old glasgow kiss.

All madness...

I wouldn't last ten minutes playing ping pong against a ping pong champ either.

Gracies? Great sportsmen, great martial artists of their art, obviously.

G.
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:40 PM   #29
DH
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Aikido is a great martial art for the egotistical: they never have their delusions challenged; dealing with 'defeat' every time you practice, as in sparring/randori, forces you to be humble.
Quote:
As a generalized rule, it has been my experience that some of the most small-minded views of competition seem to come from people who have never participated in that type of environment at any high levels for any appreciable periods of time. I find this trend to be particularly acute in the Aikido world.

People who have (and do) participate in competitive areas at high levels for sustained periods of time typically have a perspective similar to the one that I posted in previously in this thread. Those of us who come from those backgrounds and are very active in Aikido take those important perspectives and use them within the paradigm of Aikido training.

Marc Abrams
I agree with both of these points. As grapplers we grew up losing and learning ...all the time. I have long since lost track of how many times I got my butt handed to me. The only reason I can now do what I do is specifically because of how many times I learned via losing. This was compounded by real life encounters where I could have died. Many TMA teachers seem to be actually afraid of losing or being put in a position where they could lose. Personally, I find some peoples arrogance of entering in on these discussion cheap and cowardly. They never paid the price but want first class tickets. We must avoid saying the truth as the truth is seen as a personal attack, but there is one reason and one reason only that they will never appear on a mat to be stress tested-they know the outcome and they fear it. Curiously, on one level they fawn disinterest, but one the other they can't seem to stop themselves from interjecting into discussions above their paygrade that they claim disinterest in. Thankfully their fear and lack of true ability is transparent to most.
Having the conviction to make their proclaimed martial art skills-Martial- is one of the defining features of men like Bill Gleason or Ellis Amdur, Marc Abrams, Peter Bernath, Ray Cheong, Kevin Leavitt etc., who without reservation, put their asses on the line to see what they could do. And when it was handed back to them...they learned!!!

There is a reason that you seldom-if ever- hear of someone from Aikido who has ever won anything in a martial venue using Aikido or aiki alone to do so. As a martial art- Aikido doesn't work in a Martial sense against someone trained to fight back. For that reason alone we should be giving kudos to those in Aikido who are now stepping out and training IP/aiki and cross training in martial venues, making Aikido work more and more as a martial art. I have a personal interest to those actively training to possess aiki and making aiki both deadly and controlling instead of some artificial harmonious state predicated on totally false parameters.

As much as people complain, in years to come this is more than likely going to be referred to as the new golden age of aikido where Westerners take over the art and make it once again viable instead of relying on the terrible examples and teaching models we were given in the past. Cross training is revitalizing and educating smart people in the art (well most I have met in Budo are actually pretty bright so that's not what I mean) Rather it is the smart people who have started cross training as opposed to those who don't who are changing the art for the better. I think without them the art (well really ALL the arts) would be headed for the grave.
Dan
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:42 PM   #30
DH
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Aikido is a great martial art for the egotistical: they never have their delusions challenged; dealing with 'defeat' every time you practice, as in sparring/randori, forces you to be humble.
Quote:
As a generalized rule, it has been my experience that some of the most small-minded views of competition seem to come from people who have never participated in that type of environment at any high levels for any appreciable periods of time. I find this trend to be particularly acute in the Aikido world.

People who have (and do) participate in competitive areas at high levels for sustained periods of time typically have a perspective similar to the one that I posted in previously in this thread. Those of us who come from those backgrounds and are very active in Aikido take those important perspectives and use them within the paradigm of Aikido training.

Marc Abrams
I agree with both of these points. As grapplers we grew up losing and learning ...all the time. I have long since lost track of how many times I got my butt handed to me. The only reason I can now do what I do is specifically because of how many times I learned via losing. This was compounded by real life encounters where I could have died. Many TMA teachers seem to be actually afraid of losing or being put in a position where they could lose. Personally, I find some peoples arrogance of entering in on these discussion cheap and cowardly. They never paid the price but want first class tickets. We must avoid saying the truth as the truth is seen as a personal attack, but there is one reason and one reason only that they will never appear on a mat to be stress tested-they know the outcome and they fear it. Curiously, on one level they fawn disinterest, but one the other they can't seem to stop themselves from interjecting into discussions above their paygrade that they claim disinterest in. Thankfully their fear and lack of true ability is transparent to most.
Having the conviction to make their proclaimed martial art skills-Martial- is one of the defining features of men like Bill Gleason or Ellis Amdur, Marc Abrams, Peter Bernath, Ray Cheong, Kevin Leavitt etc., who without reservation, put their asses on the line to see what they could do. And when it was handed back to them...they learned!!!

There is a reason that you seldom-if ever- hear of someone from Aikido who has ever won anything in a martial venue using Aikido or aiki alone to do so. As a martial art- Aikido doesn't work in a Martial sense against someone trained to fight back. For that reason alone we should be giving kudos to those in Aikido who are now stepping out and training IP/aiki and cross training in martial venues, making Aikido work more and more as a martial art. I have a personal interest to those actively training to possess aiki and making aiki both deadly and controlling instead of some artificial harmonious state predicated on totally false parameters. I agree with the increasing number of Aikido-ka who are summarily rejecting the over cooperative, falsely harmonious model that Aikido was for them.

As much as people complain, in years to come this is more than likely going to be referred to as the new golden age of aikido where Westerners take over the art and make it once again viable instead of relying on the terrible examples and teaching models we were given in the past. Cross training is revitalizing and educating smart people in the art (well most I have met in Budo are actually pretty bright so that's not what I mean) Rather it is the smart people who have started cross training as opposed to those who don't who are changing the art for the better. I think without them the art (well really ALL the arts) would be headed for the grave.
Dan
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:49 PM   #31
DH
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
When Jigoro Kano created judo, he added a safe, non-compliant, 'competitive', method to test the techniques' effective; this was called randori.
Before judo, jujutsu was wholly 'martial', and competitons were frequently fatal.

Anyway, one day, the Tokyo police force held a contest between judo - people who trained in a 'sport', 'non-martial' fashion - and a jujutsu school - people who trained in a 'martial' way.
The judoka wiped the floor with the 'true martial artists', and the Tokyo Metropolitan Police had judo taight to their officers.
Hi Graham this is actually a myth made up out of whole clothy that never happened. I had the researched history on my other computer I will see if I can dig it up.

From Graham to someone else
Quote:
You wouldn't last thirty seconds with a jiu-jitsuka: deal with it
.
Love it!!
Everyone has an opinion on the internet, funny they rarely if ever work out when I meet them, too!
For some, I often think "Welcome to the real world of the martial arts you only imagined you are a part of!"
Dan
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:59 PM   #32
Marc Abrams
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post

There is a reason that you seldom-if ever- hear of someone from Aikido who has ever won anything in a martial venue using Aikido or aiki alone to do so. As a martial art- Aikido doesn't work in a Martial sense against someone trained to fight back. For that reason alone we should be giving kudos to those in Aikido who are now stepping out and training IP/aiki and cross training in martial venues, making Aikido work more and more as a martial art. I have a personal interest to those actively training to possess aiki and making aiki both deadly and controlling instead of some artificial harmonious state predicated on totally false parameters. I agree with the increasing number of Aikido-ka who are summarily rejecting the over cooperative, falsely harmonious model that Aikido was for them.

Dan
Dan:

It depends of course upon how you define "Aikido." If you associate "Aikido" with the overly cooperative, falsely harmonious model, then I absolutely agree with you. As you know, not all of us ascribe to that model, nor do we seek to emulate it. The couple of times that I have had to use "Aikido," I was not only surprised that I did what I did, but further surprised that the stuff really worked! I am honest enough to acknowledge that most of my martial arts and fighting sports time up until that point in time had trained me to be able to function within a genuine fight. Without that experience, I seriously doubt that my Aikido training alone would have enabled me to do what I did.

It is sad that people have to step out of the predominant training model in order to re-introduce important aspects of Aikido that have genuinely faded into almost background noise. It is a hopeful sign that there is a growing group of Aikidoka who are seriously training with people such as yourself. These people are also reworking their own teaching and training paradigms so as to be able to effectively teach and train in form of Aikido that contains the IP/Aiki skills that some of the legendary teachers in Aikido exhibited (or exhibit today). I am hopeful in that many in that group recognize that a critical component moving forward must be a teaching methodology that is both effective and efficient.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:23 PM   #33
Gorgeous George
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Now, now. Getting personal once again. Relax, breath....

I wouldn't last ten minutes playing ping pong against a ping pong champ either.
*breathe

...but you don't train techniques that are supposed to work in 'ping pong', genius; awful, awful analogy.
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:25 PM   #34
Gorgeous George
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Graham this is actually a myth made up out of whole clothy that never happened. I had the researched history on my other computer I will see if I can dig it up.

From Graham to someone else
.
Love it!!
Everyone has an opinion on the internet, funny they rarely if ever work out when I meet them, too!
For some, I often think "Welcome to the real world of the martial arts you only imagined you are a part of!"
Dan
Really? Wow: i've read that in several places, too - it's a big part of judo's history, I believe.

Regards who I said that to: a namesake - have you blocked him? I can well believe you have; I might take the same route, soon.

I hope you're well.
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:32 PM   #35
graham christian
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

Story of this and that, these guys did this to these guys. Oh well....

Personal experiences equals that means. Oh dear.....

In that case I have many as I'm sure many other aikidoka have when training with folks from other arts.

I've never met one who didn't say' hold on a minute, how do you do that?'

Shouldn't be surprising to anyone who knows Aikido as most other arts haven't ever experienced the art of no fighting.

There's only one reality really and that is each different art presents a different set of problems.

Good to learn from in order to get better at your own art.

It's never ultimately the art which is better anyway, it's the person.

As any good poker player knows or chess player or any other player for that matter knows.

Another fact or reality is that when people of different arts train with each other they may find out weaknesses in one another and guess what they do? They help each other.

This happens probably over 90% of the time whilst the few who seek to take advantage and prove dominance and harm the other are merely thugs. They usually boast about what they did to such and such. I have no time for them personally.

Plenty of challenges faced, plenty of challenges to come, ain't life great?

Aikido is great.

G.
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:43 PM   #36
Garth
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

"Another fact or reality is that when people of different arts train with each other they may find out weaknesses in one another and guess what they do? They help each other.

This happens probably over 90% of the time whilst the few who seek to take advantage and prove dominance and harm the other are merely thugs. They usually boast about what they did to such and such. I have no time for them personally."

Graham ,
Forget boasting. What about training for meeting the 10%ers when they want something from you other than the right to boast on the Internet . I mean , how many times and different ways are we going to have the "cooperative training " argument?
Some people need and or want to be concerned with the "thugs"
Sincerely
G

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:50 PM   #37
DH
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

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Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Really? Wow: i've read that in several places, too - it's a big part of judo's history, I believe.
Too much to do and going to dinner I'll try to dig it up. It is flat out false though.

Regards who I said that to: a namesake - have you blocked him? I can well believe you have; I might take the same route, soon.

I hope you're well.
I liken the mindset to Taiji. You see millions doing that for health and harmony and they practice some rather pallid push hands. No harm no foul until you see the same people B.S. ing themselves and others that they are part of the tradition of internal power in Taiji. It's pretty sad to touch hands with them and see all hope vanish from their eyes. Then and only then do they realize they never truly had any part of the martial art tradition that is taiji.
It's why the internet in some ways just fosters that nonsense on one level but it has introduced so many people to cross training with others that it has also exposed the obvious failures. Some -not all- know their place, others really are delusional and think the stuff they get away with would actually work as a martial art. The only thing to do is to offer people greater exposure and scrutiny. Then the issue tends to take care of themselves. Stop and think, we have thousand of Aikidoka out doing BJJ, MMA, Judo and Internal training, koryu weapons-many times due to the internet!
Dan
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:53 PM   #38
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

I was an "Aikidoka" long before I became a competitive Jiu Jitsu Player. I also have competed in Judo and done fairly well at that too. I progressed faster than normal in BJJ because of my aikido background so you can definitely say I suppose that an "aikidoka" has been successful in BJJ. Roy Dean is another one.

That said, competitive BJJ is a very focused sport. I even train differently for tournaments than I normally train. It is a much narrower focused "game". Any judoka will also tell you that training for competition is a very focused practice vice training in the complete curriculum of judo.

I have never competed in Sambo, but it is similar to Judo and BJJ, yet again with a different set of rules, that calls for a different practice and fight strategy. Now if I trained in Sambo for a while, I'd probably progress very quickly there too.

Yet, if I were on the mat, in Judo, Sambo, or BJJ...you'd not say "hey that guys is using Judo in a Sambo tournament...yeah there'd probably be some DNA left over. In fact, in the European Championships (BJJ) in January that I competed in, you can definitely see the influences of Judo more in Europe whereas Wrestling seems to dominate more in the USA.

That said, you develop efficient fight games around the rules. Over the years coaches and instructors develop good training methodologies to win at these sport contest.

While good Aikido....taught as a core principle based system, definitely helps, the principles of Aiki are foundational and universal and NOT STYLISTIC. That is why you cannot see "Aikido" being used in a contest.

It tells alot about someones level of understanding of martial arts when they wish to see an Aikidoka be successful in sport. They are out there...I do well having won a few NAGA tournaments and a few European Championships in BJJ over the years and I am an Aikidoka. Roy Dean has done well too!

That said it is laughable and irrelevant to me to boast that I am using "Aikido" to win a contest.

I try and apply the principles I have learned over the years and I am trying to learn more and more when I can spend the time with those that have decent skills in Aiki. It is hard work and takes time to learn aiki....it has to be balanced too and priorities have to be set, IMO, on what you spend your time on in training....but that is another subject!

Aikido uses the structure of a mid-range Jiu Jitsu system in order to teach the principles of aiki. However, it is not the jiu jitsu skills that are important, but the other things you learn through that framework that are important.

Unfortunately, too many focus on the framework and stylism and being definable as Aiki or Aikido and if you can never get past that...well you will only progress so far.

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Old 02-26-2012, 02:53 PM   #39
DH
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Dan:

It depends of course upon how you define "Aikido." If you associate "Aikido" with the overly cooperative, falsely harmonious model, then I absolutely agree with you. As you know, not all of us ascribe to that model, nor do we seek to emulate it. The couple of times that I have had to use "Aikido," I was not only surprised that I did what I did, but further surprised that the stuff really worked! I am honest enough to acknowledge that most of my martial arts and fighting sports time up until that point in time had trained me to be able to function within a genuine fight. Without that experience, I seriously doubt that my Aikido training alone would have enabled me to do what I did.

It is sad that people have to step out of the predominant training model in order to re-introduce important aspects of Aikido that have genuinely faded into almost background noise. It is a hopeful sign that there is a growing group of Aikidoka who are seriously training with people such as yourself. These people are also reworking their own teaching and training paradigms so as to be able to effectively teach and train in form of Aikido that contains the IP/Aiki skills that some of the legendary teachers in Aikido exhibited (or exhibit today). I am hopeful in that many in that group recognize that a critical component moving forward must be a teaching methodology that is both effective and efficient.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
Hi Bud
I thought I had your points pretty well covered and we agreed. I have to go to dinner.

Got your P.M. / voice mail I don't see any issues there but I have just been too jammed; teaching, playing, planning seminars to get back.
Talk to you later
Dan
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Old 02-26-2012, 03:00 PM   #40
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Story of this and that, these guys did this to these guys. Oh well....

Personal experiences equals that means. Oh dear.....

In that case I have many as I'm sure many other aikidoka have when training with folks from other arts.

I've never met one who didn't say' hold on a minute, how do you do that?'

Shouldn't be surprising to anyone who knows Aikido as most other arts haven't ever experienced the art of no fighting.

There's only one reality really and that is each different art presents a different set of problems.

Good to learn from in order to get better at your own art.

It's never ultimately the art which is better anyway, it's the person.

As any good poker player knows or chess player or any other player for that matter knows.

Another fact or reality is that when people of different arts train with each other they may find out weaknesses in one another and guess what they do? They help each other.

This happens probably over 90% of the time whilst the few who seek to take advantage and prove dominance and harm the other are merely thugs. They usually boast about what they did to such and such. I have no time for them personally.

Plenty of challenges faced, plenty of challenges to come, ain't life great?

Aikido is great.

G.
Speaking of Chess.....There is a "very good" chess player out there named Josh Waitzkins. Google him, go to Amazon, and by his book, the "Art of Learning". I encourage all my BJJ students to read this book at the blue belt level.

Josh gets it 100%. What it takes to win in high level sport and in life.

Ironically Josh left chess behind after "mastering" it, and moved on to Shan Shou and Tai Chi. And guess what...now he is working with Marcelo Garcia in BJJ up in New York!

It is more than saying "hey hold on a minute, how do you do that!". It requires development of a completely different way and methods of training that most folks don't have the time or conviction (heart) to do.

...buy the book and read it, it sums up very succinctly everything we are discussing here.

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Old 02-26-2012, 03:01 PM   #41
DH
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
While good Aikido....taught as a core principle based system, definitely helps, the principles of Aiki are foundational and universal and NOT STYLISTIC. That is why you cannot see "Aikido" being used in a contest.
It tells alot about someones level of understanding of martial arts when they wish to see an Aikidoka be successful in sport. They are out there...I do well having won a few NAGA tournaments and a few European Championships in BJJ over the years and I am an Aikidoka. Roy Dean has done well too!

That said it is laughable and irrelevant to me to boast that I am using "Aikido" to win a contest.

I try and apply the principles I have learned over the years and I am trying to learn more and more when I can spend the time with those that have decent skills in Aiki. It is hard work and takes time to learn aiki....it has to be balanced too and priorities have to be set, IMO, on what you spend your time on in training....but that is another subject!

Aikido uses the structure of a mid-range Jiu Jitsu system in order to teach the principles of aiki. However, it is not the jiu jitsu skills that are important, but the other things you learn through that framework that are important.

Unfortunately, too many focus on the framework and stylism and being definable as Aiki or Aikido and if you can never get past that...well you will only progress so far.
I think? I am disagreeing with you.
Aiki...that is Aikido's original aiki is absolutely useful and utilitarian in competitive sport or MMA. and as Sagawa said "Instantly observable upon touch as being different."
Thus we should be able to see Aiki used in competition. Not on it's own as if you are magically going to know how to fight, but also providing people cross trained to learn to fight in various venues it becomes a serious and advantageous attribute.
Dan
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Old 02-26-2012, 03:18 PM   #42
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

Dan....no we are on the same page. I am referring to EXTERNAL aikido. things like sankyo, irimi nage etc.

I would agree with you based on your definition Dan. Observable on touch, but to the ordinary person watching the contest they would not be able to see the difference.

I think that those that had a high level of skill would not even consider the trivial point of advertising the fact that they were an "aikidoka". I believe it becomes pointless when you get to a high level of skill as you simply do what you do within the parameters of the rules.

Not that I am a high level guy...but I don't train in differently or flip a switch when I do aikido or BJJ, I simply work within the constraints of what is presented to me in my training. I do not limit myself to a particular set of skills.

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Old 02-26-2012, 03:26 PM   #43
graham christian
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
"Another fact or reality is that when people of different arts train with each other they may find out weaknesses in one another and guess what they do? They help each other.

This happens probably over 90% of the time whilst the few who seek to take advantage and prove dominance and harm the other are merely thugs. They usually boast about what they did to such and such. I have no time for them personally."

Graham ,
Forget boasting. What about training for meeting the 10%ers when they want something from you other than the right to boast on the Internet . I mean , how many times and different ways are we going to have the "cooperative training " argument?
Some people need and or want to be concerned with the "thugs"
Sincerely
G
Gregory. This isn't some competition about co operative training except in peoples heads as far as I'm concerned.

Thugs I deal with, no special training needed.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-26-2012, 03:36 PM   #44
graham christian
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Speaking of Chess.....There is a "very good" chess player out there named Josh Waitzkins. Google him, go to Amazon, and by his book, the "Art of Learning". I encourage all my BJJ students to read this book at the blue belt level.

Josh gets it 100%. What it takes to win in high level sport and in life.

Ironically Josh left chess behind after "mastering" it, and moved on to Shan Shou and Tai Chi. And guess what...now he is working with Marcelo Garcia in BJJ up in New York!

It is more than saying "hey hold on a minute, how do you do that!". It requires development of a completely different way and methods of training that most folks don't have the time or conviction (heart) to do.

...buy the book and read it, it sums up very succinctly everything we are discussing here.
My Teacher was a very good chess player too. I mean very good, he used to play twenty at a time in charity events. He drew once with chess master at the time from cuba. That was his level he reached and it had taken over his life to such an extent it ended up chess or his wife. The wife won.

That's probably why I mentioned it for listening to him explain all about the why's and wherefores over the years I think I have heard enough.

Please no more! ARghhhhhhhh......

Regards.G.
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Old 02-26-2012, 04:04 PM   #45
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
As a generalized rule, it has been my experience that some of the most small-minded views of competition seem to come from people who have never participated in that type of environment at any high levels for any appreciable periods of time. I find this trend to be particularly acute in the Aikido world.

People who have (and do) participate in competitive areas at high levels for sustained periods of time typically have a perspective similar to the one that I posted in previously in this thread. Those of us who come from those backgrounds and are very active in Aikido take those important perspectives and use them within the paradigm of Aikido training.

Marc Abrams
Seconded.

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote:
Anyway, one day, the Tokyo police force held a contest between judo - people who trained in a 'sport', 'non-martial' fashion - and a jujutsu school - people who trained in a 'martial' way.
The judoka wiped the floor with the 'true martial artists', and the Tokyo Metropolitan Police had judo taight to their officers.

True story.
No, it's not true.

OTOH, I agree whith the other things you wrote.
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Old 02-26-2012, 06:44 PM   #46
matty_mojo911
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well, I disagree with many of the ideas being presented as mutually exclusive.
I've done my aikido in open rooms: With gloves/Without gloves, With gi/Without gi, in MMA and BJJ schools, and as a third kyu totally dominating every shihan I have ever met....with no change in me doing much of anything..... but Morihei Ueshiba's Aiki.
No problems at all.
Dan
Wooh.....woooh...hold the horse on this one Dan. Please tell me what BJJ school you've gone to and dominated them at with aikido. Flick me the name, so I can confirm that. I don't mean to be disrespectful but I sense gross exageration here.
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Old 02-26-2012, 07:09 PM   #47
gregstec
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

IMO, sports is competitive and the study of budo is not; the former has rules and clear definitions of who loses and who wins - the latter has rules but there does not have to be a loser or winner; there is an exchange and both sides can be considered winners if they learn.

Now bar/street fighting is an entirely different animal, and contrary to what Dan says, there are really no rules - however, there will be conditioned behavioral responses based upon any martial training and other gender behavioral patterns that makes up the person - that is why men and women have different response actions in a fight - trust me, no one is thinking what to do next, they are simply responding based on their conditioned experiences and training. Of course, I think there are also some instinctive survival stuff going on as well, but that is so subjective it would be difficult to detail in a general discussion.

Now military combative situations are something entirely different and only those that have experience or training in that environment can provide any realistic information about that.

Greg
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Old 02-26-2012, 07:44 PM   #48
Walter Martindale
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
IMO, sports is competitive and the study of budo is not; the former has rules and clear definitions of who loses and who wins - the latter has rules but there does not have to be a loser or winner; there is an exchange and both sides can be considered winners if they learn.

Now bar/street fighting is an entirely different animal, and contrary to what Dan says, there are really no rules - however, there will be conditioned behavioral responses based upon any martial training and other gender behavioral patterns that makes up the person - that is why men and women have different response actions in a fight - trust me, no one is thinking what to do next, they are simply responding based on their conditioned experiences and training. Of course, I think there are also some instinctive survival stuff going on as well, but that is so subjective it would be difficult to detail in a general discussion.

Now military combative situations are something entirely different and only those that have experience or training in that environment can provide any realistic information about that.

Greg
Operational definitions of fighting... A fight, to me, is something without rules, and there are survivors and maybe someone who shows mercy and doesn't finish the job.
a "scrap" or a "punch up" is more like what happens on the NHL or north american ice hockey, where there are unwritten rules about how long you keep going and you stop when the ref sticks his arm in.
A "match" is something with rules of engagement like MMA/Octagon/Judo/Karate/TKD cocmpetitions. They resemble fights, but there's someone there to stop it if it gets too real.

I've never been in a "punch up" or a "fight" but I've been in a lot of "matches" (judo) - only one of them ever felt like it was starting to be a "fight"... the ref intervened and calmed us down..

Combat - haven't done that, either, but hand to hand combat would be only after the air support, artillery, rifles, pistols, edged weapons were rendered inoperative or unsuccessfully deployed...

IMO, anyway.
W

W
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:04 PM   #49
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

Quote:
Matt Morris wrote: View Post
Wooh.....woooh...hold the horse on this one Dan. Please tell me what BJJ school you've gone to and dominated them with aikido. Flick me the name, so I can confirm that. I don't mean to be disrespectful but I sense gross exageration here.
A. You don't understand what I am talking about as.... aikido. I am talking about aiki, and it is not what any shihan in the art I have ever seen is capable of.

B. I've never exaggerated on these issues a day in my living life. In fact I have held waaaay back from mentioning things that have occurred in open rooms for years now . In addition, to Bjj and MMA guys with fight records there are many people here who have seen things against experts in other fields. One caution. I don't play Bjj or wrestle. I stick to no gi and fight rules.

C. I don't really much care whether you believe it or not. Being called a liar is almost routine for me on Aikiweb and E-budo. I have NEVER had to apologize for stating something I could do. The only consistent thing I have experienced on the internet and related to the internet is the incredible number of times I have been apologized to.... after they find out how much I don't say....out of politeness.

Dan
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:12 PM   #50
DH
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Re: My thoughts on competition vs Non-competioin

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
IMO, sports is competitive and the study of budo is not; the former has rules and clear definitions of who loses and who wins - the latter has rules but there does not have to be a loser or winner; there is an exchange and both sides can be considered winners if they learn.

Now bar/street fighting is an entirely different animal, and contrary to what Dan says, there are really no rules - however, there will be conditioned behavioral responses based upon any martial training and other gender behavioral patterns that makes up the person - that is why men and women have different response actions in a fight - trust me, no one is thinking what to do next, they are simply responding based on their conditioned experiences and training. Of course, I think there are also some instinctive survival stuff going on as well, but that is so subjective it would be difficult to detail in a general discussion.
Greg
Er...contrary to what I said?
How are you doing anything but restating what I did say?
Quote:
6. You fight for different reasons. Sport fighting has rules. Believe it or not most bar fights have preconditioned "rules" implied or through conditioning;.......
I'll leave the military stuff out as I don't like to talk above my paygrade. My observations WERE my paygrade.
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