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Old 02-24-2012, 03:27 PM   #226
Gary David
 
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Wow! Didn't know you could see something thats not a demo as a demo. That's quite a trick. Didn't know you were a spokesman for Gary either. Didn't see any gentlemanly demeaner as approval either.

Gentlemanly demeaner however is very takemuso and his communications quite clear and straight. No need for you to explain anything about him to me thank you.

Budo is love not nonsense.

Regards,G.
Graham
While not declared a demo your clips are a demonstration of your approach and skills....it just is. As for Dan.....while he is not signing checks for me or binding me to contracts I do call him friend......I value his experiences, his approaches and what he has to offer. Dan is one of several whose knowledge I value at a high level, and along with John Clodig, I have the opportunity to tap. I am sure there are others out there that I just have not yet bumped into.....every day offers that opportunity as long as I stay open to the possibility. This is the only bit of sage wisdom I would offer.....keep open to the possibilities.

And as a parting note...I kinda look like my avatar....

Just go straight

Gary
 
Old 02-24-2012, 03:45 PM   #227
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Re: Why no tsuba?

I peak into this thread every few months, just to see if (a) Graham is still arguing, and (b) people still think they're going to get anywhere arguing with Graham.

I am both appalled and amused to find both.

 
Old 02-24-2012, 04:21 PM   #228
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I peak into this thread every few months, just to see if (a) Graham is still arguing, and (b) people still think they're going to get anywhere arguing with Graham.

I am both appalled and amused to find both.
+1

 
Old 02-24-2012, 04:46 PM   #229
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Graham
It is watching people move with weapons in their hand. And everyone....every one...that I know who is capable would think the same way. From a certain standpoint you have shown us enough; the way you hold a sword, handle a sword, swing a sword, your maai, your entry, your placement, your hasuji, your footwork is totally wrong. As I said, I would be the first to give you affirmation when I can see anything that is:
Traditionally correct
Martially correct
or even mechanically sound.
It will not change when you do a demo.
This tied into the comments I made about Gary. Many of us are trying to be nice -to you as a person- while we are striving to explain what your videos and dialogue reveal and give you a better education than that which is demonstrated in your responses. Hopefully it will be beneficial to your future endeavors.

Budo is love, not nonsense.
To some
Budo as love is nonsense

Dan
Moving with a weapon in your hand. (a bokken) Purpose is what matters and only a demo or dedicated class to such a weapon would fit your description. I could use it as a walking stick to demonstrate a point if I want to. You cannot tell me what principle was being shown in any of the different motions in those clips so can only relate to something else.

Trying to educate me? Now there's a mistake. Try listening and sharing instead as I'm not your student. That would be an education.

I wouldn't be surprised if I knew one hundredth of the knowledge of weapons compared to you
but those few principles I know I know quite fully and wouldn't be surprised either to find that far exceeds yours.

What your view on Aikiken or Aikido sword is I wouldn't have a clue for I've only ever heard you say how useless it is. I don't think you know what it is or have a definition for it because your too busy comparing it to other sword arts from what I can see.

But it's all irrelevant for the principles I teach I know and the students who through practice grasp them and use them find them more than effective in all kinds of situations. Now that's all I need to know, it far exceeds your opinion.

I don't expect you or your friends to understand any clip of mine so nothing you say surprises me really. I let you blissfully believe you do.

Budo is Love. Budo as Love is Aikido.

Regards.G.
 
Old 02-24-2012, 04:52 PM   #230
Gerardo Torres
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Matthew Story wrote: View Post
I peak into this thread every few months, just to see if (a) Graham is still arguing, and (b) people still think they're going to get anywhere arguing with Graham.

I am both appalled and amused to find both.
Yep. And there's no end in sight:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...756#post303756
 
Old 02-24-2012, 04:53 PM   #231
kewms
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Moving with a weapon in your hand. (a bokken) Purpose is what matters and only a demo or dedicated class to such a weapon would fit your description. I could use it as a walking stick to demonstrate a point if I want to.
I've actually seen Saotome Sensei use a bokken as a walking stick. And many jo forms start from a hiking staff grip.

No matter what the purpose, the way a person holds their own body, with or without a weapon, is extremely revealing.

Katherine
 
Old 02-24-2012, 05:15 PM   #232
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
While not declared a demo your clips are a demonstration of your approach and skills....it just is. As for Dan.....while he is not signing checks for me or binding me to contracts I do call him friend......I value his experiences, his approaches and what he has to offer. Dan is one of several whose knowledge I value at a high level, and along with John Clodig, I have the opportunity to tap. I am sure there are others out there that I just have not yet bumped into.....every day offers that opportunity as long as I stay open to the possibility. This is the only bit of sage wisdom I would offer.....keep open to the possibilities.

And as a parting note...I kinda look like my avatar....

Just go straight

Gary
Gary. On one level it is but how many see it. Criticism does not show understanding and most often shows quite the opposite. My Aikido clips show only people come, people follow, people go down. My clips show only I do something and this happens. My clips show I do so from a relaxed, calm almost slow looking way. Why the effects happen that do happen these 'experts' say and are well off the mark. So obviously they don't know why.

They have a choice. Admit it happens and they don't see how, which means humility and saying you don't know or else assume it must be down to the uke, or no center, or well anything to fit with the non understanding. Simple really.

So simple they can't see it. Outside of their norm. My words show my approach, not video. Funny thing is those I know in life and martial arts who know my words, know me, and thus know my approach understand my videos.

Regards.G.
 
Old 02-24-2012, 05:32 PM   #233
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I've actually seen Saotome Sensei use a bokken as a walking stick. And many jo forms start from a hiking staff grip.

No matter what the purpose, the way a person holds their own body, with or without a weapon, is extremely revealing.

Katherine
Can be revealing. Depends who it is thats looking. Even then I wouldn't trust many 'experts' views.

How they hold their body can be very deceptive too. Too many stuck on physical posture for my liking.

Yes, many things can be done with the bokken or jo from many positions other than 'standard' suburi and such. To me they are more like kata with a weapon or even joint kata.

Regards.G.
 
Old 02-24-2012, 08:15 PM   #234
hughrbeyer
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Aha, a mistake! Yes, I suppose that must be Tamura Sensei then. Y ou got me, I will live in shame the rest of my life ha, ha.
I held back from this thread a bit because I wanted to see how it developed (and I have a life), but I'm unwilling to pass on without raising this one moment up to the light. Let's review the state of play as of my last post, shall we?

* Graham claimed sword knowledge through a lineage going back to Tohei Sensei.

* Others disputed Tohei's sword knowledge.

* Graham justified it by saying any Japanese martial artist of his generation would have sword knowledge.

* Others disputed that claim by naming several Japanese shihan who did not show or claimed not to have good sword knowledge, including the claim that Yamada Sensei never taught sword. (#192)

* Graham responded by saying he found videos on YouTube of Yamada with a bokken (#200).

* I asked for the link.

* Graham responded with two links, neither of which shows Yamada with a bokken. (#202)

That post, and Graham's prior post, were false. Neither video shows what Graham claimed it did.

Graham, I am inclined to take exception to this.
 
Old 02-24-2012, 10:34 PM   #235
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Hi Hugh
This is more what Graham was looking for
Of course this being a very early film it doesn't refute the statement that he didn't teach sword throughout his career. In light of what you now know- I would suggest you watch starting at about 4:00 and when you get to about 4:08 when Yamada starts moving with a sword; watch in stop action.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-24-2012 at 10:37 PM.
 
Old 02-25-2012, 12:04 AM   #236
kewms
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Really? Oy.

Katherine
 
Old 02-25-2012, 06:51 AM   #237
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Re: Why no tsuba?

A respectable piece of digging, Dan, but at this point I'm less interested in the original point at issue than I am in the fact that when Graham couldn't find what he wanted, he misrepresented what he did find.
 
Old 02-25-2012, 07:05 AM   #238
hughrbeyer
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Oh, but I did as you suggested. All I can say is I admire their... enthusiasm.
 
Old 02-25-2012, 08:42 AM   #239
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I held back from this thread a bit because I wanted to see how it developed (and I have a life), but I'm unwilling to pass on without raising this one moment up to the light. Let's review the state of play as of my last post, shall we?

* Graham claimed sword knowledge through a lineage going back to Tohei Sensei.

* Others disputed Tohei's sword knowledge.

* Graham justified it by saying any Japanese martial artist of his generation would have sword knowledge.

* Others disputed that claim by naming several Japanese shihan who did not show or claimed not to have good sword knowledge, including the claim that Yamada Sensei never taught sword. (#192)

* Graham responded by saying he found videos on YouTube of Yamada with a bokken (#200).

* I asked for the link.

* Graham responded with two links, neither of which shows Yamada with a bokken. (#202)

That post, and Graham's prior post, were false. Neither video shows what Graham claimed it did.

Graham, I am inclined to take exception to this.
Hugh. You should take exception because what you say above is incorrect. However I don't take exception to it but it does show you haven't quite read things properly.

1) I claimed knowledge from one teacher. Others put 2 and 2 together taking lineage of that teacher into account, not me. I specifically stated I don't know where he learned it.

2) As I said others equated with Tohei, their problem not mine. I equated shin shin toitsu as explained by the teacher, not Toheis art but sen no sen or as he said tying of minds. This I pointed out, once again I do the same.

3) Japanese of that generation in martial arts have knowledge of sword. Yet to find one that doesn't. No justification. Common sense. Maybe most Americans in the relevant states have knowledge of guns.

4) None were false, in fact I've just corrected you on those points so that means what you say is false. I prefer to say mistaken for my intention isn't to try to disgrace you.

5) The videos I found, and enjoyed, I said were of Sugano and Yamada using bokken. Since then I found the Sugano part is correct but the yamada part is incorrect and that the other was not him. This I stated, so I have already corrected that thank you.

If you read the thread properly you will find Yamada did know and use the bokken. The only thing is who emphasised it and who didn't, who used it regularly and who hardly ever. Then even more to the point, who used tsuba, who didn't and when it is used and when it isn't and opinions on the whys and wherefores.

My offerings are my experience and my views on the subject.

Fudoshin.

Regards.G.
 
Old 02-25-2012, 08:50 AM   #240
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Hugh
This is more what Graham was looking for
Of course this being a very early film it doesn't refute the statement that he didn't teach sword throughout his career. In light of what you now know- I would suggest you watch starting at about 4:00 and when you get to about 4:08 when Yamada starts moving with a sword; watch in stop action.
Dan
Lovely video. Straight to my collection. Nice.

Regards.G.
 
Old 02-25-2012, 09:28 AM   #241
OwlMatt
 
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Re: Why no tsuba?

I'd like to suggest that we all just stop arguing with Graham, in this thread and in others.

This thread stopped being what it is supposed to be at the moment Graham stepped in (#16) with an inflammatory and condescending assertion--one I suspect he is entirely unqualified to make--intended not to further constructive conversation but to let us all know how great he is. Since then, this thread has been nothing but well-intended AW members trying to get Graham to see reason.

It should be clear after four months (four months!) that Graham is not and never was interested in seeing reason.

The death of this thread is long overdue. Let's just let it die, and guard ourselves against Graham in the future. The only winning move, as a disembodied computer voice once said to Matthew Broderick, is not to play.

 
Old 02-25-2012, 09:39 AM   #242
Keith Larman
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Re: Why no tsuba?

The problem, I think, is not that anyone really expects Graham to change. He seems quite happy being what he thinks he is. The problem is with those who come across threads that Graham participates in. Leaving his assertions unchallenged can to some seem like tacit agreement. Sure, it becomes rather surreal after a while, but as the threads keep going someone still needs to step up and say "No, that's completely contrary to my understanding." I suspect that as long as Graham keeps posting people will be replying because you simply can't let some things go by unchallenged. Over time people hopefully come to their own conclusions regarding the truth-value of his assertions, just as you have. And that's what discussions are all about.

 
Old 02-25-2012, 12:19 PM   #243
hughrbeyer
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Last post to you, Graham:

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hugh. You should take exception because what you say above is incorrect. However I don't take exception to it but it does show you haven't quite read things properly.

1) I claimed knowledge from one teacher. Others put 2 and 2 together taking lineage of that teacher into account, not me. I specifically stated I don't know where he learned it.

2) As I said others equated with Tohei, their problem not mine. I equated shin shin toitsu as explained by the teacher, not Toheis art but sen no sen or as he said tying of minds. This I pointed out, once again I do the same.

3) Japanese of that generation in martial arts have knowledge of sword. Yet to find one that doesn't. No justification. Common sense. Maybe most Americans in the relevant states have knowledge of guns.

4) None were false, in fact I've just corrected you on those points so that means what you say is false. I prefer to say mistaken for my intention isn't to try to disgrace you.

5) The videos I found, and enjoyed, I said were of Sugano and Yamada using bokken. Since then I found the Sugano part is correct but the yamada part is incorrect and that the other was not him. This I stated, so I have already corrected that thank you.

If you read the thread properly you will find Yamada did know and use the bokken. The only thing is who emphasised it and who didn't, who used it regularly and who hardly ever. Then even more to the point, who used tsuba, who didn't and when it is used and when it isn't and opinions on the whys and wherefores.

My offerings are my experience and my views on the subject.

Fudoshin.

Regards.G.
Your 1-3 are irrelevant to the issue I have with you.

4: My summary of the conversation was correct, thank you. You haven't, so far as I know, "disgraced" me. You have insulted me.

5: I guess I can choose between a deliberate misrepresentation of the videos and the idea that you can't tell one shihan from another. These weren't old videos like the one Dan posted, Graham--Yamada looks like Yamada in them.

<Snappy conclusions all deleted as being Jun-bait>

Okay, that's all.
 
Old 02-25-2012, 12:34 PM   #244
Michael Douglas
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Back on-topic, slightly.

Here's a question ;
Why do we not see M.Ueshiba using a tsuba on his bokken in the existing photos and films?

I guess it could be a poll, but even listing certain optional answers would rub a lot of folks up the wrong way - so I won't.

This is an important question by the way, not being flippant.
 
Old 02-25-2012, 01:11 PM   #245
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Last post to you, Graham:

Your 1-3 are irrelevant to the issue I have with you.

4: My summary of the conversation was correct, thank you. You haven't, so far as I know, "disgraced" me. You have insulted me.

5: I guess I can choose between a deliberate misrepresentation of the videos and the idea that you can't tell one shihan from another. These weren't old videos like the one Dan posted, Graham--Yamada looks like Yamada in them.

<Snappy conclusions all deleted as being Jun-bait>

Okay, that's all.
I'm interested. You don't have to post, you can p.m. me, but I am interested in what 'insulted' you and how so.

Deliberate misrepresentation? I think you will find putting a video and calling the Shihan the wrong name could not be done deliberately, especially on here.

Regards.G.
 
Old 02-25-2012, 01:38 PM   #246
Marc Abrams
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Last post to you, Graham:

Your 1-3 are irrelevant to the issue I have with you.

4: My summary of the conversation was correct, thank you. You haven't, so far as I know, "disgraced" me. You have insulted me.

5: I guess I can choose between a deliberate misrepresentation of the videos and the idea that you can't tell one shihan from another. These weren't old videos like the one Dan posted, Graham--Yamada looks like Yamada in them.

<Snappy conclusions all deleted as being Jun-bait>

Okay, that's all.
Hugh:

Opinions have been put out there regarding the using and not using the tsuba. Not all opinions are the same and not all opinions merit the same weight of considerations. I would like you to consider these two posts

1) Fred Little
Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Dear Mary,

As the old saying goes, we are all entitled to our own opinions, but we are not entitled to our own facts. When someone repeatedly posts counterfactual statements and attempts to hide behind a (mis)characterization of those counterfactual statements as perfectly valid personal opinions, it is not surprising that such a person should attract vigorous counterarguments.

There are some people who object to such vigorous responses, it is true. My primary objection to them is that they simply take a good deal of time to put together and have a limited effect when directed at those who are simply ineducable. As I grow older and more careful regarding how I choose to spend my limited time, increasingly, my choice with such individuals is to ignore them and to avoid situations where it is necessary to interact with them. For better or for worse, with an occasional exception (whether well- or ill-chosen) this means generally avoiding any interaction on Aikiweb but the most basic transfer of inarguably objective fact.

I'm hardly alone in this. Indeed, I know a number of very skilled and knowledgeable practitioners who simply don't post here at all because doing so exposes them to endless streams of mindless rejoinders from ill-informed, poorly trained, and notably unaccomplished practitioners who are suffering from meta-cognitive failure to such an extreme degree that the result calls to mind the old proverb about the inadvisability of wrestling pigs.

But I don't see this as a problem with Aikiweb alone. I see this as a fundamental problem with what, for lack of a better phrase, is termed "the aikido community." Having been trained to not only politely tolerate, but in some cases actually celebrate their own teachers' failings, there are a great many students of the art who have actively damaged not only their own critical thinking ability, but their capacity for moral reasoning. It may not be dead, but for many practitioners, it has certainly gone to sleep.

In that circumstance, the wake-up call often sounds harsh indeed; but like an alarm clock, hitting the snooze button only buys a few more minutes of restive dormancy. And that is, I think, about all I have to say about that.

Best regards,

FL
2) Mine- in this same thread.:

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Graham:

Stepping back and watching what you are doing is akin to a man caught in quicksand who is digging down underneath himself to find solid ground. People far more skilled, knowledgeable and able than you are pointing out major areas in which they disagree with what you say and what you do. You become defensive and try and wiggle your way out of it with words and then feign puzzlement regarding the use of the internet. You might want to consider stepping back and really listening to what people are saying to you. You might want to step back and consider the necessity of testing these things out with some of these people with an open mind and willingness to acknowledge mistakes, gaps of understanding and lack of ability (For example, Dan's generous and kind invitation to you).

You seem to end up in these situations time and again without any awareness of how YOU are creating this reality. Threads leave the topic and digress to trying to get you to recognize what you are doing to create these impasses. People continue to engage you because they see the positive potential in you. The more you continue with this pattern, the fewer roads will be left open to you. Those roads really do lead to better things. Stop trying to defend what you think that you know and begin to embrace that which you really don't know. This pattern is causing more thread digression than any other thing lately. Kindly step back, take notice and make the appropriate changes for your own betterment.

Marc Abrams
Those two posts, when taken together, point out a tendency that is placing a disproportionate amount of attention upon opinions and claims that are considered by many to be suspect, inaccurate, etc.. If someone will not answer questions directly and we are always veering off course, then maybe we should try and point that out and move back on topic with those who are actually willing to engage in an honest discussion about the topic.

Oh, the topic was on the tsuba. We in Aikido can at best, use the sword to highlight certain principles in action (kata practice or otherwise). We should acknowledge that unless we are certified teachers in traditional schools of swordsmanship, that we really do not have a great depth of knowledge regarding the sword. We really can offer little in the way of some deep understandings that would help us answer why certain schools use or do not use a tsuba for certain kata (or other types of practice). I am wise enough to know the areas that I am ignorant in and I usually try and ask some intelligent questions to those in the know, who can educate me and help deepen my knowledge base.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
 
Old 02-25-2012, 07:34 PM   #247
kewms
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
3) Japanese of that generation in martial arts have knowledge of sword. Yet to find one that doesn't. No justification. Common sense. Maybe most Americans in the relevant states have knowledge of guns.
As an American I can confidently say: no, knowledge of guns is not universal, even in parts of the country where gun ownership is common. And there are plenty of people who own guns but are completely incompetent in their use.

As for Japanese martial artists' knowledge of the sword, what is your metric? Willingness to be filmed waving a sword around? Or actual training to some degree of competence? As with guns, there can be a wide difference between real and perceived skill level.

Katherine
 
Old 02-25-2012, 07:54 PM   #248
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
As an American I can confidently say: no, knowledge of guns is not universal, even in parts of the country where gun ownership is common. And there are plenty of people who own guns but are completely incompetent in their use.

As for Japanese martial artists' knowledge of the sword, what is your metric? Willingness to be filmed waving a sword around? Or actual training to some degree of competence? As with guns, there can be a wide difference between real and perceived skill level.

Katherine
I see you are veering what I say towards competence. Still yet to find a Japanese of said era in said martial arts who didn't have a level of competance with bokken.

But I feel that's not your point, your point appears to be solely a bugbear with my bokken knowledge and competence.

First differentiation needed is that it can be used frequently to demonstrate principles. Those who don't know this will see what they want to see.

Regards.G.
 
Old 02-25-2012, 08:10 PM   #249
hughrbeyer
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Thanks, Marc, I already know how to value the various opinions expressed. I was actually done with the topic of using a tsuba back on page one.
 
Old 02-25-2012, 08:30 PM   #250
kewms
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Actually, I had a couple of points. Rather than let you put words in my mouth, why don't I just tell you what they are?

* First, the claim that "all" Japanese martial artists of a given era have sword knowledge is not nearly as obvious as you seem to think.
* Second, even if they do have (or are willing to claim) "knowledge," that doesn't mean they have any degree of competence whatsoever.
* So exactly what is the point of bringing this large collection of martial artists with "sword knowledge" into the thread? That randomly waving sticks around is okay because lots of people do it?

I'm also having trouble with this whole notion that aikido principles are so unique among the martial arts that, when demonstrating them with a bokken, apparent incompetence can actually hide total mastery. You may believe that, but that's not what any of the teachers in my lineage claim, and it's certainly not what I've felt in their classes.

Yes, I'm completely ignoring the whole "using bokken to demonstrate principles" line of argument. Balance is balance. Openings are openings. If your "demonstration of principles" allows someone to lop off your head, your principles are unsound.

Katherine
 

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