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Old 02-23-2012, 09:56 PM   #26
Allen Beebe
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

A thought (Ellis' thought) certainly deserving of consideration for anyone seriously considering! (I know I did!)

From Aiki News #85 (Summer 1990) (Subscribe!)

Andre' Nocquet:

"O-Sensei On Religion

[One day] I said to Ueshiba Sensei, "You are always praying, Ueshiba Sensei. Then aikido is a religion." "No, that's not true. Aikido is never a religion, but if you are a Christian, you will be a better Christian because of aikido. If you are a Buddhist, you will be a better Buddhist." I thought it was an amazing response. I really liked his answer. Since he was a Japanese I was afraid he would say that Christianity was nothing. Ueshiba Sensei had a great deal of respect for Christ. I was living in a four-mat room in the dojo and he would knock on the door and enter. He would sit down beside me and there was a portrait of Jesus Christ. He would place his hands together in a gesture of respect. I asked him one day if there wasn't a similarity between his prophecies and those of Christ. He answered, "Yes, because Jesus said his technique was love and I, Morihei, also say that my technique is love. Jesus created a religion, but I didn't. Aikido is an art rather than a religion. But if you practice my aikido a great deal you will be a better Christian." Then I asked, "Sensei should I remain a Christian?" He replied, "Yes, absolutely. You were raised as a Christian in France. Remain a Christian." If he had told me to stop being a Christian and become a Buddhist, I would have been lost. My heart was full of Ueshiba Sensei because he had a vision of the entire world and that we were all his children. He called me his son."

and from Kisshomaru Ueshiba's "Aikido" 1974.

"When anybody asks if my Aiki budo principles are taken from religion, I say, "No." My true budo principles enlighten religions and lead them to completion."

So perhaps a big "No!" to religion per-say, but then
of course he goes on to say,

"I do not make a companion of men. Whom, then , do I make a companion of? God."

and

"You should first make God's heart yours."

"I leave everything as it is to God."

"Its only purpose is to perform the work of God."

"The "Way" means to be one with the Will of God and practice it."

Or conversely . . .

"That is to say, to turn the devil-minded world into the World of Spirit. This is the mission of Aikido.
The devil-mind will go down in defeat and the Spirit rise up in victory. Then Aikido will bear fruit in this world."


So while we do not hear a lot of O-sensei prompting us to develop his seriously cool and impressive shamanic powers (not to detract from Takeda Sokau who too disappeared and re-appeared in front of witnesses, and is said to have "read" people and "dressed them down" based on his readings and also studied Mikkyo with Mountain Ascetics), we do seem to hear him differentiate religion (seemingly in his mind a relative thing) and God (seemingly in his mind an absolute thing) AND promote a communion with God (or Gods - he's got that whole whole Mono Theistic (Omoto) with a Pan Theistic (Multi-ryu) remix thing going on)

But perhaps he, himself, offers a clarification and/or reconciliation . . .

"Those who seek to study Aikido should open their minds, listen to the sincerity of God through Aiki, and practice it"

What was that? Is that properly translated???? Was Ueshiba Morihei, O-sensei, Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samu Hara Ryu O O Kami suggesting that individuals of open mind should, THROUGH AIKI, "listen to the sincerity of God," "and practice it?"

Maybe that is why he wrote so much about Aiki!

Maybe, he saw himself pointing to the Aiki of the ancients and saying, "Look guys, this is cool AND it is more than just useful for fighting, and/or impressing friends . . . I think it is a key to union with God! AND, I think union with God is the solution to a lot of our problems . . . like fighting, and the need to impress each other."

So now I just have to figure out how getting off of the line of attack and twisting my partners wrist brings me closer to god . . . hmmm, so much to do, so much to think about!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:09 PM   #27
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

Possibly, O'Sensei did not speak of the internal because of the inherent attitude of Japanese.

A perspective from writings on Buhda, given to the assembly of monks at Kannondōri in Kōshōhōrin-ji Temple on the fifth day of the summer training period in the second year of the En'o era (May 12, 1240).

http://www.shastaabbey.org/pdf/shobo/008keise.pdf

page 72 or page 8 in pdf

'Further, this land of Japan is a distant place separated from others by vast seas. The hearts of its people are befuddled in the extreme. From the distant past, it has not been common for saintly persons or those naturally gifted with good sense to be born here, to say nothing of the scarcity of true students of the Way. When the fellow who knows nothing of the heart that seeks the Way is told of this Way-seeking heart, he turns a deaf ear to this good instruction. As a result, he does not reflect upon himself and harbors resentment towards others.

In short, when you put into practice your intention to seek enlightenment, you should not concern yourself with letting worldly people know that you have given rise to the enlightenment-seeking mind and are practicing the Way. Rather, you should conduct yourself so that they may not know it; even more, you should not speak of it openly. People today who seek Truth are rare; as a result, the majority do not engage themselves in spiritual practice and have not awakened in their hearts. Desirous of praise from others, they seek for someone who will tell them how integrated their practice and understanding are. This is just what ‘being deluded within delusion' means. You should immediately toss out such ridiculous notions'
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:20 AM   #28
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
I - can't - help - it.

One other whole area of questioning and research that people brush off. Shamanism. Paranormal powers. I can hear the scoffing - but is it any different from scoffing about IT?............

Just sayin'
Well, here we all are finally having a nice logically exchange in this thread, and then SHAZAM!, the master pot stirrer himself jumps down from the clouds and throws in a bit of his own magic

IMO, I think the stories of supernatural and/or paranormal powers are just a result of ego fueled self delusion - when accomplished martial artists were confronted with power they could not understand or duplicated, it just had to be from a supernatural source; after all, if it was not, they should be able to duplicate it. Also, there probably was a certain amount of deliberate exaggeration to build up and foster along the reputation of O Sensei from his dedicated disciples. I believe Tohei talk about those exaggerations in one of his interviews in Aikido Journal; I think it was the same interview where he said O Sensei only taught him how to truly relax.

Now I am not discounting the possibility of Shamanism. The truth is, if you can not say "been there done that" with O Sensei, you will never know for sure the source of his power - and even if you can say that, you probably still won't know; that is somewhat evident from his deshi since no one has duplicated his skill level.

So, the two choices for the source of his power appear to be shamanism or IP/AIKI - personally, I think too much has been attributed to shamanism in the past, and I do not know of anyone actively teaching a particularly successful shamanistic approach nowadays, so I think I will continue the pursuit of IP/AIKI - at least in that, there now appears to be a path to follow that is producing results

Greg
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:30 AM   #29
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Well, here we all are finally having a nice logically exchange in this thread, and then SHAZAM!, the master pot stirrer himself jumps down from the clouds and throws in a bit of his own magic

IMO, I think the stories of supernatural and/or paranormal powers are just a result of ego fueled self delusion - when accomplished martial artists were confronted with power they could not understand or duplicated, it just had to be from a supernatural source; after all, if it was not, they should be able to duplicate it. Also, there probably was a certain amount of deliberate exaggeration to build up and foster along the reputation of O Sensei from his dedicated disciples. I believe Tohei talk about those exaggerations in one of his interviews in Aikido Journal; I think it was the same interview where he said O Sensei only taught him how to truly relax.
I seem to recall Tohei making comments about exaggerations - but about things that happened years before he appeared on the scene, so I didn't give it that much weight (I don't know if that's the interview that you're talking about).

I have an open mind about the powers - but I haven't seen any demonstrations of them yet myself.

I will say that, regardless of any manifestation or non-manifestation of paranormal effects, there are definitely (IMO) important linkages between the traditional internal training paradigm used by Ueshiba and his spiritual/religious training.

The nature of those, and the implications for understanding the structure of Ueshiba's training, may come up somewhere some day - you never know...

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-24-2012, 09:50 AM   #30
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I seem to recall Tohei making comments about exaggerations - but about things that happened years before he appeared on the scene, so I didn't give it that much weight (I don't know if that's the interview that you're talking about).
Yes, I believe that is the one - he may have been talking after the fact, but the impression I got was that even those present during the time of the events, viewed the stories as exaggeration as well - the point is that I think Tohei also said he has never seen any of those feats repeated.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I have an open mind about the powers - but I haven't seen any demonstrations of them yet myself.

I will say that, regardless of any manifestation or non-manifestation of paranormal effects, there are definitely (IMO) important linkages between the traditional internal training paradigm used by Ueshiba and his spiritual/religious training.

The nature of those, and the implications for understanding the structure of Ueshiba's training, may come up somewhere some day - you never know...

Best,

Chris
I had a conversation one day about aiki and aptitude where I stated I thought a lot of the success someone could have with learning aiki depended upon their natural aptitude to understand and learn the particulars required. The person I was talking to thought that it was more a matter of attitude or perseverance and work that made a major difference. IMO, all are important, but if you have two people putting in the same level of effort in training, it will be the one with the better aptitude that will excel over the other. Now if you take someone with great aptitude AND extreme attitude coupled with extreme perseverance, you just might end up with an O Sensei or a Sagawa

Greg
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:59 AM   #31
Marc Abrams
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

Ellis Amdur raised a very interesting point that deserves a degree of both notice and caution.

When people began talking about IP/Aiki as the almost lost component in Aikido, it created a big stir. This is an example of a common dilemma when exploring paradigms of understanding/knowledge. Accepting that information required the person to make a paradigm shift in order to begin appreciate and then begin to understand what people were talking about. The previous paradigm had to do with the purely physical, technical movements that were considered the essence of waza. Now, you have people who come along and say "NO" there are things going on inside the body, and a different operating system for controlling the body that need to be recognized and utilized in order to really begin to do waza. The easiest thing for people to do, is to ignore this information, because it does not fit into a pre-existing paradigm. The hardest thing for people to do is to accept the limitations of an existing paradigm and open it up to scrutiny and change (shift) to create a new and different paradigm that places the information into a useable form.

People acknowledge that there are extraordinary events that occur in interactions with other people. People can acknowledge that there is a greater frequency of those concurrences amongst a subset of people that typically are very spiritual and unusually sensitive to their environment. The easiest thing to do is to discount those events as spurious, random events that become inappropriately linked to unusual thoughts and alleged experiences. The hardest thing to do, is to accept that there are things that do not neatly fit inside of our current paradigm of experiences and we don't quite know what to do with that.

Stories of O'Sensei's supernatural powers do exist. Some have been disproven and others have not. We have enough information to acknowledge that O'Sensei had IP/Aiki abilities that he had learned and developed within himself. We should also be open to the possibility of an added factor that could explain the "supernatural." I am quite the harsh skeptic. I will also be the first one to acknowledge that I have personally experienced some things with other people (and at least one personal experience) that simply did not fit within my existing paradigms of understanding. Rather than discount those experiences, I recognize that there exists the likelihood of events and things happening that I cannot fully appreciate, let alone, understand due to the limitations of my current paradigms of understanding.

We are asking other people to open themselves up to make the necessary paradigm shift necessary to become aware of the necessity to learn the IP/Aiki in order to come closer to doing O'Sensei's Aikido. That should not come at the expense or exclusion of other potential paradigm shifts that may be necessary to make as we move forward. Show me, is always the best policy. That being said, we might not be open enough to really appreciate the depths of what we are being shown. Keeping an open and a great deal of skepticism is my policy, what is yours..... (and I am not an Allstate agent...).

Marc Abrams
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:05 AM   #32
DH
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
I - can't - help - it.

One other whole area of questioning and research that people brush off. Shamanism. Paranormal powers. I can hear the scoffing - but is it any different from scoffing about IT?............

Just sayin'
Yes Ellis, it is different.
I am not much concerned with people doubting the very real physical and observable results of Internal strength that have been documented for generations. In my estimation and experience for years now, their opinions continue to change once they meet people who have various degrees of internal strength, and more so with those who can demonstrate some sophistication in actually using it to fight.
The physical manifestations attributed to Ueshiba and also attributable to others in China run the gamut of educated Martial Arts people acknowledging great skills, to lesser lights being overwrought and offering rather ridiculous and conflated reports.
I have seen sooo much horseshit done in the name of ukemi that it makes anything possible. I have also seen otherwise credible people all but mesmerized by certain teachers. I have restrained myself from attending certain seminars if only to halt this nonsense in it's tracks and bring people back to a more reasoned view of expectations and probable outcomes. If I hear one more person talking about this or that teacher "Being on a different level" of no touch throws and mentally controlling people to forestall attacks, I just might start showing up. Hell I could send students to show up.
It is only worth noting that people lose themselves and continue to be mentally "played" by otherwise real and talented people, so they think everyone is suseptable to the same effect. There is collusion going on at a level they simple cannot fathom so it is all so very real to them.
What did the guy who defeated Ueshiba offer by way of some woo woo powers?
Was he a kami also?
And why haven't we read of any Judo people stating Ueshiba was a kami?
There were similar things said of Takeda which he laughed off or scorned.

The idea of Ueshiba displaying otherworldly powers I dismiss out of hand. As talking points and research this notion of his power being singular and supernatural remains a pivotal point in keeping others away from the real work that they can do to attain power themselves
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-24-2012 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:17 AM   #33
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The idea of Ueshiba displaying otherworldly powers I dismiss out of hand. As talking points and research this notion of his power being singular and supernatural remains a pivotal point in keeping others away from the real work that they can do to attain power themselves
Dan
Unless these powers were not so otherwordly but he sold them as if they were.

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Old 02-24-2012, 10:29 AM   #34
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Unless these powers were not so otherwordly but he sold them as if they were.
No not just him...them. And that's my point. People really buy this stuff.
It is worth noting the prep work and grooming that goes on with these somewhat odd teachers, loooong before they step on a mat. It is easy to take real and actual skills, combine them with an ukemi model and mental manipulation and come out a boy wonder. It's a twice told tale that still sucks in otherwise solid people.
Dan
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:37 AM   #35
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
No not just him...them. And that's my point. People really buy this stuff.
It is worth noting the prep work and grooming that goes on with these somewhat odd teachers, loooong before they step on a mat. It is easy to take real and actual skills, combine them with an ukemi model and mental manipulation and come out a boy wonder. It's a twice told tale that still sucks in otherwise solid people.
Dan
Mental manipulation skills are skills nonetheless.

What if Ueshiba's Aikido was the result of mixing Daito-ryu's Aiki with late XIX and early XX centuries "mentalism" (what showmen like Criss Angel, Derren Brown and other stage magicians do today) probably present in Oomoto spiritual training?

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Old 02-24-2012, 10:49 AM   #36
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
No not just him...them. And that's my point. People really buy this stuff.
It is worth noting the prep work and grooming that goes on with these somewhat odd teachers, loooong before they step on a mat. It is easy to take real and actual skills, combine them with an ukemi model and mental manipulation and come out a boy wonder. It's a twice told tale that still sucks in otherwise solid people.
Dan
And it's not just the odd teachers (although I'm sure some people think that I'm pretty odd) - the entire process of modern ukemi training conditions the bodies of both uke and nage to believe that something that is not happening is actually happening.

In this light, the numerous statements of the old-timers that ukemi taught may take on a whole new light.

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-24-2012, 11:00 AM   #37
Marc Abrams
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
And it's not just the odd teachers (although I'm sure some people think that I'm pretty odd) - the entire process of modern ukemi training conditions the bodies of both uke and nage to believe that something that is not happening is actually happening.

In this light, the numerous statements of the old-timers that ukemi taught may take on a whole new light.

Best,

Chris
My take on what Ellis presented is that the uke experiences are most likely accounted for by what you and Dan are referring to. The other stuff, who knows... In many ways, it is a straw horse. It does not really change the pursuit of understanding and learning IP/Aiki. If there was that supernatural component, then that will become self-evident over time as we pursue the current path of learning. Who was it who said "you don't know, what you don't know" ?

Marc Abrams
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:23 AM   #38
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I had a conversation one day about aiki and aptitude where I stated I thought a lot of the success someone could have with learning aiki depended upon their natural aptitude to understand and learn the particulars required. The person I was talking to thought that it was more a matter of attitude or perseverance and work that made a major difference. IMO, all are important, but if you have two people putting in the same level of effort in training, it will be the one with the better aptitude that will excel over the other. Now if you take someone with great aptitude AND extreme attitude coupled with extreme perseverance, you just might end up with an O Sensei or a Sagawa

Greg
I think natural aptitude can only account for a miniscule amount of progress compared to perseverance. Some of the people I've met that think they have a natural aptitude to understand aiki, do'nt seem to have the perseverance to do the work to really get there. But then, I might think that as I'm one of those lacking the natural aptitude.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:38 AM   #39
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

Dan - that may very possibly - very likely - be true. That's actually what I believe. I remember the interview where Sagawa snorts in disgust at a question of whether Takeda could flip tatami or pass through walls. I also recall Ueshiba K. demurring when asked about his father's ability to "dodge" bullets, as Shioda more or less describes. (but then he equivocates, fwiw).

What I am saying, however, is that knowledge only comes when you admit a possibility. For example, when I wrote Dueling with Osensei, and wrote the chapter on hapkido, I wrote a commentary on my observations of Daito-ryu. I had only seen the current so-called mainline branch, both under Takeda Tokimune and then later under Kondo. I was pretty mild in my description - the truth is that I cannot begin to express how disappointed I was. THIS was the famous Daito-ryu? I remember sitting in the Budokan as Takeda lay on his back, had different people pin his limbs and one guy put on a cross-collar choke, and then he twitched and they implausibly rolled off in all directions, carefully avoiding bumping in to each other. I was sitting next to a high ranking judoka who was whispering under his breath - "I'd love to be the guy putting on the choke." As some of you may know, I work with police officers, and there is a phenomenon known as "excited delirium." It is a neurological state that creates a berserker rage - including super-human strength, and no sensation of pain. (I've seen footage of a 150 pound naked guy - due to high body temp, which can quickly kill them, they strip off their clothes - with three bullets in him, alligator crawling on feet and hands, with appr. 500 pounds of two officers on his back, and another photo of a several hundred pound grandfather clock thrown threw a picture window and out, thirty feet on the lawn). Yet, in Champaign, Illinois, because the police, who have not been issued TASERS, had to institute physical control and restraint procedures to pin the person to the ground long enough for an EMT to inject Ketamine into them to knock them out. AND four officers, with proper leverage and lots of practice have had universal success in such pinning. So if four people can pin the Incredible Hulk, then I've my doubts about that particular Daito-ryu trick.

So frankly, I wrote off Daito-ryu - and lots of other people I met did so as well. Then a few voices from the fringes - in particular Mike Sigman and Dan Harden and Rob John - started pointing things out that, they asserted, were in Daito-ryu (as well as many other places). And, to give myself a little credit, I suppose, I started a discussion on AJ, which brought other people in, which caused a critical mass of discussion, and others, who only had a small piece might ask, "Hey, what about . . ." And then, IHTBF - and some people felt - and the question of why Ueshiba was so respected, and why Takeda was held in awe - made sense in a way that a view of most current Daito-ryu and aikido didn't. And hence HIPS.

All I am saying is that in the spirit of open inquiry - WITHOUT neglecting one's own training in budo, without negating the IS paradigm of study in the least - or the history of Daito-ryu as clearly underpinning aikido, I think it would be an intriguing exercise to pool together in one place all the accounts of Takeda, of Ueshiba, and of other budo men doing things that are in the shamanistic paradigm. In the end, I bet a lot of them are fiction. Others may be attributed accurately to high level IS skills. But maybe there is something else. It is only in asking an open question, that we admit new info.

Just taking the Mariye Takahashi story - see Aikido Journal - maybe she is just a credulous devotee. But that particular experience has nothing to do with IS type skills. And it intrigues me - what if she is not credulous in that way? What if UEshiba was not a magician who set up some BS table-tipping phenomenon?

To conclude - I'm not saying that you, Dan, for example, must do this sort of study to give creditability to your position regarding Ueshiba and IS. I'm simply saying that some questions are worth asking - if only to take them off the table. Because, it would be a shame if the Aiki/IS paradigm became the "new Orthodoxy."

Best
Ellis

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Old 02-24-2012, 12:28 PM   #40
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
And it's not just the odd teachers (although I'm sure some people think that I'm pretty odd) - the entire process of modern ukemi training conditions the bodies of both uke and nage to believe that something that is not happening is actually happening.

In this light, the numerous statements of the old-timers that ukemi taught may take on a whole new light.

Best,

Chris
I meant "that ukemi was not taught" - I'm going to have to hire a proofreader...

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-24-2012, 12:30 PM   #41
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

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Victor Williams wrote: View Post
I think natural aptitude can only account for a miniscule amount of progress compared to perseverance. Some of the people I've met that think they have a natural aptitude to understand aiki, do'nt seem to have the perseverance to do the work to really get there. But then, I might think that as I'm one of those lacking the natural aptitude.
Personally, I think that attitude is more important than aptitude in any endeavor, but with all other things considered equal, better aptitude will give someone an edge.

Greg
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:54 PM   #42
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

And, all other things held equal, the one who works harder will have an edge.

And you'll never find out if you have the aptitude until you put in the work to find out...
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Old 02-25-2012, 02:06 AM   #43
Lee Salzman
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
And, all other things held equal, the one who works harder will have an edge.

And you'll never find out if you have the aptitude until you put in the work to find out...
But exactly how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Pointless quibbling about illusory constructs.

As an art, it seems the more pressing debate is can it be proved, not asserted, what Morihei Ueshiba was doing, what was essential and what was superfluous, and how do we replicate that essential ability in ourselves and future students in a reliable way. Make the path clear, and people will follow it. Right now, it is anything but clear, despite the rhetoric. So it is pointless to worry about the character of the students who might be following a method that has yet to be discerned in its totality.
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Old 04-22-2012, 08:08 PM   #44
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

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Matt Fisher wrote: View Post
Thanks to Chris for a VERY thought provoking blog entry...

I just wanted to point out that John Stevens's book Budo Secrets contains text from Ki-ichi Hogen. The selection in Stevens's book is longer (in English) than what Chris included in his blog, but I don't know how different the two texts are in Japanese. In his very short intro to this section, Stevens writes that "These teachings have been widely employed by martial arts instructors over the centuries and are still in use. Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, often quoted from this list when teaching and demonstrating Aikido techniques, and so did my Aikido teacher Rinjiro Shirata."

Matt Fisher
Allegheny Aikido
Pittsburgh, PA
FWIW and just to elaborate a bit; In the early eighties Tamura sensei did teach Aikido while explaining Hogen's scroll of the tiger. He showed how to apply the ideas/principles and explained how O Sensei often quoted the scroll of the tiger.
Shigenobu Okumura translated the text in English and published it somewhere in the eighties (if I remember correctly) in the newsletter of Hombu dojo "The Aikido".

Tom
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Old 04-22-2012, 08:18 PM   #45
Chris Li
 
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
FWIW and just to elaborate a bit; In the early eighties Tamura sensei did teach Aikido while explaining Hogen's scroll of the tiger. He showed how to apply the ideas/principles and explained how O Sensei often quoted the scroll of the tiger.
Shigenobu Okumura translated the text in English and published it somewhere in the eighties (if I remember correctly) in the newsletter of Hombu dojo "The Aikido".

Tom
So...what did they say, and what was Tamura's application of the principles?

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-22-2012, 11:25 PM   #46
PeterR
 
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
What I am saying, however, is that knowledge only comes when you admit a possibility. For example, when I wrote Dueling with Osensei, and wrote the chapter on hapkido, I wrote a commentary on my observations of Daito-ryu. I had only seen the current so-called mainline branch, both under Takeda Tokimune and then later under Kondo. I was pretty mild in my description - the truth is that I cannot begin to express how disappointed I was. THIS was the famous Daito-ryu? I remember sitting in the Budokan as Takeda lay on his back, had different people pin his limbs and one guy put on a cross-collar choke, and then he twitched and they implausibly rolled off in all directions, carefully avoiding bumping in to each other. I was sitting next to a high ranking judoka who was whispering under his breath - "I'd love to be the guy putting on the choke."
I wonder if you were at the same demonstration described here

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/oshie3.html

Quote:
About the same time there was some special training with a Daitoryu Aikijujitsu teacher in the small dojo in the Japan Budokan and we joined in immediately. During his demonstration he showed a technique that left an impression on me in particular. He was spread-eagled face up on the tatami with four people holding his ankles and wrists and in an instant these four people were thrown off. We had difficulty believing this because it was difficult enough against just one person in randori practice or a match. It was a very strange spectacle but the talk of all my fellow students was that it didn't appear to be a fake technique. Later I asked Tomiki Shihan about it and his unexpected reply was, "I can do that anytime!". However, straight away I didn't believe him and doubt remained somewhere in my mind.

In July 1979, more than ten years later, the 2nd All Japan Competitive Aikido Meeting was held following on from the previous year. It was organised by the JAA and took place in Shihan's home town of Kakunodate in Akita prefecture. He had only just made a comeback from abdominal surgery in August of the previous year and taught with bandages wrapped around his abdomen. I was nominated as his uke for both days. It was an opportunity for him to show me the technique that I had been shown more than ten years earlier by the Daitoryu teacher. He did it very easily and without effort. Once again, needless to say, I was astonished at the depth of techniques.
Tetsuro Nariyama wrote the above and I have seen him do the same but I would not describe the movement as a twitch just minimal. I will say I was not one of the people holding onto his limbs for that particular demonstration but I have no doubt that those that did were earnest they being cut from the same cloth as Nariyama (ie. prove it).

Anyway - the point being that there is a healthy disbelief out there along with the disappointment with some of the "magic" techniques. When seeing these things one can not be in so much awe that you don't try it yourself (please don't ask how that went) and you should be able to see what is actually happening. This way you should be able to separate the wheat from the chaff with respect to "actual" vs "fake" techniques.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-22-2014, 11:48 AM   #47
Chris Li
 
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Re: Kiichi Hogen and the Secret of Aikido

Now available in Romanian, courtesy of Aikido Jurnal. The original English version is available here.

Best,

Chris

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