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Old 02-23-2012, 07:20 PM   #201
hughrbeyer
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Link or it didn't happen.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 08:24 PM   #202
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Link or it didn't happen.
What a strange thing to say. Link or you don't know maybe. anyway, there's one....

http://youtu.be/h6nsQTcf1_0

And there's another..

http://youtu.be/srvrArVg-L4

G.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 08:39 PM   #203
hughrbeyer
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Aw, muffin...

it didn't happen.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 09:01 PM   #204
Chris Li
 
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
What a strange thing to say. Link or you don't know maybe. anyway, there's one....

http://youtu.be/h6nsQTcf1_0

And there's another..

http://youtu.be/srvrArVg-L4

G.
I must have missed the part where Yamada had a bokken. Maybe you could give us the time marker?

Yamada has, actually, taught bokken - once that I've heard of, but it's very unusual for him.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 02-24-2012, 02:25 AM   #205
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I wonder if there are any shihan who don't teach or haven't learned bokken?
Endo Seishiro shihan explicetly does not teach sword. At least not during seminars.
Nor does Shimizu Makoto shihan, who is his student.
 
Old 02-24-2012, 07:24 AM   #206
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I must have missed the part where Yamada had a bokken. Maybe you could give us the time marker?

Yamada has, actually, taught bokken - once that I've heard of, but it's very unusual for him.

Best,

Chris
Aha, a mistake! Yes, I suppose that must be Tamura Sensei then. Y ou got me, I will live in shame the rest of my life ha, ha.

No, seriously though, we still haven't found any shihan who never taught or learned bokken.

As I said, it's a no brainer to me that somewhere along the line they learned or tauhgt bokken also that being in the martial arts world and Japanese somewhere along the line they would have a sword and know quite a lot about it's use. I bet Yamada's got a samurai sword in his house.

Regards.G.
 
Old 02-24-2012, 08:18 AM   #207
Fred Little
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Aha, a mistake! Yes, I suppose that must be Tamura Sensei then. Y ou got me, I will live in shame the rest of my life ha, ha.

No, seriously though, we still haven't found any shihan who never taught or learned bokken.

As I said, it's a no brainer to me that somewhere along the line they learned or tauhgt bokken also that being in the martial arts world and Japanese somewhere along the line they would have a sword and know quite a lot about it's use. I bet Yamada's got a samurai sword in his house.

Regards.G.
I believe Harry Frankfurt had some useful observations that are very much to the point, and which echo and amplify the unintentional hilarity induced by the use of the phrase "no brainer" above.

Quote:
It does seem fitting to construe carelessly made, shoddy goods
as in some way analogues of bullshit. But in what way? Is the
resemblance that bullshit itself is invariably produced in a
careless or self-indulgent manner, that it is never finely crafted,
that in the making of it there is never the meticulously attentive
concern with detail to which Longfellow alludes? Is the bullshitter
by his very nature a mindless slob? Is his product necessarily
messy or unrefined? The word shit does, to be sure, suggest this.
Excrement is not designed or crafted at all; it is merely emitted,
or dumped. It may have a more or less coherent shape, or it may
not, but it is in any case certainly not wrought.
The notion of carefully wrought bullshit involves, then, a
certain inner strain. Thoughtful attention to detail requires
discipline and objectivity. It entails accepting standards and
limitations that forbid the indulgence of impulse or whim. It is
this selflessness that, in connection with bullshit, strikes us as
inapposite. But in fact it is not out of the question at all. The
realms of advertising and of public relations, and the nowadays
closely related realm of politics, are replete with instances of
bullshit so unmitigated that they can serve among the most
indisputable and classic paradigms of the concept. And in these
realms there are exquisitely sophisticated craftsmen who — with
the help of advanced and demanding techniques of market
research, of public opinion polling, of psychological testing, and
so forth — dedicate themselves tirelessly to getting every word
and image they produce exactly right.
Yet there is something more to be said about this. However
studiously and conscientiously the bullshitter proceeds, it
remains true that he is also trying to get away with something.
There is surely in his work, as in the work of the slovenly
craftsman, some kind of laxity which resists or eludes the
demands of a disinterested and austere discipline. The pertinent
mode of laxity cannot be equated, evidently, with simple
carelessness or inattention to detail. I shall attempt in due course
to locate it more correctly. --H.G. Frankfurt, On Bullshit

 
Old 02-24-2012, 08:18 AM   #208
DH
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
As I said, it's a no brainer to me that somewhere along the line they learned or tauhgt bokken also that being in the martial arts world and Japanese somewhere along the line they would have a sword and know quite a lot about it's use. I bet Yamada's got a samurai sword in his house.
Regards.G.
This is astonishing, from a first year student...okay, but from an Aikido teacher in 2012? Amazing.

Graham
You don't get a Katana (and by the way, other than children no one calls the various forms of Japanese swords Samurai swords anymore) and then magically know something about it's use. The shear hubris of that is beyond the pale. Nor does being a Japanese Shihan in some art or other qualify you to use one. There are plenty of children who pick them up as well as people like this who all think they know how to use one to.
It was interesting to see yet again the type of sword work in that video as it reminded me of the Shihan meeting in Japan where one of them said in front of Doshu "We have to stop doing these types of displays. There are real swordsmen in the audience and they are laughing at us." And two other Shihan thanked the guy who said it for taking the risk.
It was bad enough back then to embarrass yourself in a public demo, worse now to an international audience.
One Koryu Menkyo I know once muttered "It's too bad we arent living in an age where you actually had to use them. Then they'd all be dead and we wouldn't have to worry about them passing along that nonsense to other people."

Chris, doesn't this take you back to the Iai and Aikido list era when so many were getting their first (non shihan filtered information) education?

Last edited by DH : 02-24-2012 at 08:24 AM.
 
Old 02-24-2012, 08:22 AM   #209
DH
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
I believe Harry Frankfurt had some useful observations that are very much to the point, and which echo and amplify the unintentional hilarity induced by the use of the phrase "no brainer" above.
I continue to bow to you Fred! It's a joy to see you at play.
Dan
 
Old 02-24-2012, 08:31 AM   #210
Keith Larman
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I bet Yamada's got a samurai sword in his house..
So does my elderly mother-in-law...

 
Old 02-24-2012, 08:39 AM   #211
Cliff Judge
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Re: Why no tsuba?

I don't imagine that I should worry that future generations, wondering what Aikido people in the early 21st century thought about tsubas, will read very far into this thread.

But it worries me that beginners might think of a tsuba on a bokken as a real piece of protective equipment.

The two times I hand my hands whacked so hard that I had throbbing aches that lasted for months, I had a tsuba on my bokken. It did not stand in the way of my partner's bokken, since the angle and maai were both incorrect for the form we were practicing, and we were going at it with more intensity than we should have.

(The only time I actually broke a finger, I was putting on my hakama, but that's a story for another thread.)

I really think tsubas are just for practicing particular techniques that use them. They are for things that should happen, not for things that should NOT happen.
 
Old 02-24-2012, 09:30 AM   #212
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
I believe Harry Frankfurt had some useful observations that are very much to the point, and which echo and amplify the unintentional hilarity induced by the use of the phrase "no brainer" above.
I think you will find excrement goes through and is the result of very sophisticated and meticulous process. Internal power, the blood system, the organs, the functions nutritionslly, etc.etc. All fascinating stuff. If only humans could be in such harmonious alignment.

Regards.G.
 
Old 02-24-2012, 09:38 AM   #213
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This is astonishing, from a first year student...okay, but from an Aikido teacher in 2012? Amazing.

Graham
You don't get a Katana (and by the way, other than children no one calls the various forms of Japanese swords Samurai swords anymore) and then magically know something about it's use. The shear hubris of that is beyond the pale. Nor does being a Japanese Shihan in some art or other qualify you to use one. There are plenty of children who pick them up as well as people like this who all think they know how to use one to.
It was interesting to see yet again the type of sword work in that video as it reminded me of the Shihan meeting in Japan where one of them said in front of Doshu "We have to stop doing these types of displays. There are real swordsmen in the audience and they are laughing at us." And two other Shihan thanked the guy who said it for taking the risk.
It was bad enough back then to embarrass yourself in a public demo, worse now to an international audience.
One Koryu Menkyo I know once muttered "It's too bad we arent living in an age where you actually had to use them. Then they'd all be dead and we wouldn't have to worry about them passing along that nonsense to other people."

Chris, doesn't this take you back to the Iai and Aikido list era when so many were getting their first (non shihan filtered information) education?
i'm astonished that your astonished. I'm also astonished by your continuous reference to things that never happened. Never done a sword demo, never shown one either.

I'm also astonished by your use of comparisons to sword arts missing the only point that matters, Aikido or any Aikiken is of itself and nothing to do with them. When people do in order to put down then it merely shows me their lack of understanding of Aikido.

Regards.G.
 
Old 02-24-2012, 09:45 AM   #214
DH
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Re: Why no tsuba?

It continues to amaze me that there is such a profound ignorance about weapons here in 2012 after almost twenty years of International correspondence. I think it proves my observation that "Education does not equal access to information." Learning really has to be a voluntary thing. Nothing is so sad as to see budo people ( more so teachers who will ruin others) burying their head in the sand at the first ray of light.
On the flip side we have to be thankful that the vast majority are reading, sharing and absorbing. I am traveling and meeting quite a few of ya'll and it is not that bad...at all. My seminars are a bit unique in that they draw teachers from the Aikido, Koryu, ICMA, Karate, BJJ, MMA, and FMA all into one room. As several of your shihan have noted "I don't think this has ever happened before." In some ways it is like the old Aikido friendship seminars but it involved more teachers and from a broader range of Budo.

It is a delight to see that most of us are way past this level of understanding. In fact it is fascinating to sit at tables with Aikido-ka and when we talk about these type of issues, everyone at the table is sort of nodding and wanting to move forward in the discussion. There is so much agreement and recognition of having grown from good information in the past that it is building bridges between the various budo communities.
The people who have never responded to the information available sort of marginalize themselves.
Dan
 
Old 02-24-2012, 09:51 AM   #215
DH
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
i'm astonished that your astonished. I'm also astonished by your continuous reference to things that never happened. Never done a sword demo, never shown one either.

I'm also astonished by your use of comparisons to sword arts missing the only point that matters, Aikido or any Aikiken is of itself and nothing to do with them. When people do in order to put down then it merely shows me their lack of understanding of Aikido.

Regards.G.
I have no idea what you are talking about or trying to say. Your syntax frequently reads like Yoda "Hmmm... strange this is...hmm. Yes, people do things as such...hmm."
Restate it and try to be more clear.
Dan
 
Old 02-24-2012, 10:15 AM   #216
Marc Abrams
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Graham:

Stepping back and watching what you are doing is akin to a man caught in quicksand who is digging down underneath himself to find solid ground. People far more skilled, knowledgeable and able than you are pointing out major areas in which they disagree with what you say and what you do. You become defensive and try and wiggle your way out of it with words and then feign puzzlement regarding the use of the internet. You might want to consider stepping back and really listening to what people are saying to you. You might want to step back and consider the necessity of testing these things out with some of these people with an open mind and willingness to acknowledge mistakes, gaps of understanding and lack of ability (For example, Dan's generous and kind invitation to you).

You seem to end up in these situations time and again without any awareness of how YOU are creating this reality. Threads leave the topic and digress to trying to get you to recognize what you are doing to create these impasses. People continue to engage you because they see the positive potential in you. The more you continue with this pattern, the fewer roads will be left open to you. Those roads really do lead to better things. Stop trying to defend what you think that you know and begin to embrace that which you really don't know. This pattern is causing more thread digression than any other thing lately. Kindly step back, take notice and make the appropriate changes for your own betterment.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 02-24-2012, 10:46 AM   #217
Gary David
 
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
i'm astonished that your astonished. I'm also astonished by your continuous reference to things that never happened. Never done a sword demo, never shown one either.

I'm also astonished by your use of comparisons to sword arts missing the only point that matters, Aikido or any Aikiken is of itself and nothing to do with them. When people do in order to put down then it merely shows me their lack of understanding of Aikido.

Regards.G.
Graham
You have your reality, you have expressed it many times, having stated or implied that what you have and do is a true understanding of Aikido....your understanding a true rendition of the founder approach. I am good with that....it is after all your reality. I also agree that Aikiken and Aikijo are in and of themselves stand alone.....some connection to real weapons work, but not real weapons work. They are both there to provide training in movement......understanding timing, space and a bunch of other things that can help with your empty hand art. To me the most important aspect of using the boken and jo are that their use requires that both hands, both sides and the whole are in play. The sadness here is the use of both sides, the balance and wholeness it provides, is lost the moment these tools are placed back in the rack. A further problem with both is neither teaches small movements in and of themselves......this has to be added by someone who understands small movements.....and most don't ..... the larger movements gets them by.

It is perfectly ok to stay were you are, were many are....it is perfectly ok.

My reality is like driving down the road.....I can see the landscape is changing, I can see that more exists beyond the fence I have around my yard and even at 69 I still want to learn and experience. To me the essentials needed to move on are what Dan and other are talking about and trying to help with. For me the best chance of this is with folks like Dan, John, Walter, Chris, Doug, Marc, David, Fred, Keith and others who are like them who have some connection to realities closer to mine.

Oh by the way.....your boken clips up on You Tube are a demo...so you have at least shown your approach to Aikiken rather than sword.

just go straight

Gary
 
Old 02-24-2012, 10:49 AM   #218
phitruong
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
But it worries me that beginners might think of a tsuba on a bokken as a real piece of protective equipment.

.
80/20 rule, methink. as in, 80% of the time, you don't need the tsuba, but use our other protective equipment, our noggin, to be careful and not going beyond our capabilities before we are ready. the other 20% of the time, shit happens, and this is where we will need the tsuba, wrist braces, and so on and so forth. or we can just switch over to shield and battle axe, which is my preference (wonder if you can do aiki stuffs with shield and battle axe, i meant can you aikiage with the shield and loft the other bugger's legs off at the ankles?).

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
 
Old 02-24-2012, 11:18 AM   #219
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It continues to amaze me that there is such a profound ignorance about weapons here in 2012 after almost twenty years of International correspondence. ...
I've had similar discussions with two representatives of ki-aikido (Yoshigasaki) here in Germany for a long time.
I finally realized that we were talking about completely different things when using the terms "aikido", iki", "aikiken" and so on. The points we made were identical to this discussion here.

At last both sides drew back and both sides stopped talking. We both realized that we can not get together. We both used the same words. But our practice and our understanding is completely different, often diametrically opposed. And allthough what they practice is called aikido, there is no connection to what I understand as such.
 
Old 02-24-2012, 12:01 PM   #220
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
You have your reality, you have expressed it many times, having stated or implied that what you have and do is a true understanding of Aikido....your understanding a true rendition of the founder approach. I am good with that....it is after all your reality. I also agree that Aikiken and Aikijo are in and of themselves stand alone.....some connection to real weapons work, but not real weapons work. They are both there to provide training in movement......understanding timing, space and a bunch of other things that can help with your empty hand art. To me the most important aspect of using the boken and jo are that their use requires that both hands, both sides and the whole are in play. The sadness here is the use of both sides, the balance and wholeness it provides, is lost the moment these tools are placed back in the rack. A further problem with both is neither teaches small movements in and of themselves......this has to be added by someone who understands small movements.....and most don't ..... the larger movements gets them by.

It is perfectly ok to stay were you are, were many are....it is perfectly ok.

My reality is like driving down the road.....I can see the landscape is changing, I can see that more exists beyond the fence I have around my yard and even at 69 I still want to learn and experience. To me the essentials needed to move on are what Dan and other are talking about and trying to help with. For me the best chance of this is with folks like Dan, John, Walter, Chris, Doug, Marc, David, Fred, Keith and others who are like them who have some connection to realities closer to mine.

Oh by the way.....your boken clips up on You Tube are a demo...so you have at least shown your approach to Aikiken rather than sword.

just go straight

Gary
Thank you. The clips are not a demo by the way.

I understand your reality too and may it serve you well. I have no need to make others choices or paths wrong.

The peolple you mention, along with your good self have found something they need so good for them. Your mention of smaller and comparing to larger must be something you relate to such I take it. Then that's all good too.

One thing I know is that they don't know or understand my Aikido. I can tell by their comments.

Energy motion, yin and yang, intention, non resistance, stillness, circles of all sizes, triangles, spirals, relationships to motion, timing, space, all old news to me. Categorizing my Aikido they are well off the mark, nowhere near, so I need no advice from such and neither do I ask for any.

I do not advise them on what they do although I could easily but it would be bad manners to do so.

This thread is tsuba. What I said about it stands. Trying to use 'special circumstances and techniques where it would be needed' is a totally different subject and thus to me merely mischief. Of course in such special training it's necessary but I see only one (or few) do this particular training.

The effort given to make wrong is quite amusing. What a waste of time and energy.

Your approach is open minded and I applaud it.

Your saying, just go straight is a good one. Maybe I'll make one to sign off on. Mmmm.

Something like Fudoshin....

Regards.G.
 
Old 02-24-2012, 12:35 PM   #221
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have no idea what you are talking about or trying to say. Your syntax frequently reads like Yoda "Hmmm... strange this is...hmm. Yes, people do things as such...hmm."
Restate it and try to be more clear.
Dan
That's right Dan. That's me. I am nicknamed such by friends along with such other terms of endearment including wise wombat senior and such things. All good fun but nonetheless me.

Dan accepting me as me not methinks....Mmmmm...... many misunderstandings ahead... may lay

Mmmmmmmmm. Cometh understanding I am.....hmmm. Good the force is...

Regards G.
 
Old 02-24-2012, 03:22 PM   #222
DH
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Thank you. The clips are not a demo by the way.

Your approach is open minded and I applaud it.
Regards.G.
Your clips are a demo- and you are the only one who doesn't understand why that is, and what you continue to reveal month after month.
And Gary is not open to... say...budo nonsense. In fact he is highly selective and experienced through exposure to all sorts of good teachers and to all sorts of bogosity. I have noted in the past that many people misread his old gentlemanly demeaner for approval.....to their detriment.
Dan
 
Old 02-24-2012, 03:41 PM   #223
DH
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
I've had similar discussions with two representatives of ki-aikido (Yoshigasaki) here in Germany for a long time.
I finally realized that we were talking about completely different things when using the terms "aikido", iki", "aikiken" and so on. The points we made were identical to this discussion here.

At last both sides drew back and both sides stopped talking. We both realized that we can not get together. We both used the same words. But our practice and our understanding is completely different, often diametrically opposed. And allthough what they practice is called aikido, there is no connection to what I understand as such.
Hi Carsten
I think the overiding point I see often in aikido (and no, not even close to always, I know many responsible teachers) is to accept all practices as equal. This defies any standard, and appreciable realization of having to produce measurable results. Facing someone with skill with weapons will clearly demonstrate someone's lack and that....right quick.
Everyone does not get an "A." And for some their practices range from deluded to irresponsible to being ouright dangerous to themselves and others.
Dan
 
Old 02-24-2012, 03:59 PM   #224
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Your clips are a demo- and you are the only one who doesn't understand why that is, and what you continue to reveal month after month.
And Gary is not open to... say...budo nonsense. In fact he is highly selective and experienced through exposure to all sorts of good teachers and to all sorts of bogosity. I have noted in the past that many people misread his old gentlemanly demeaner for approval.....to their detriment.
Dan
Wow! Didn't know you could see something thats not a demo as a demo. That's quite a trick. Didn't know you were a spokesman for Gary either. Didn't see any gentlemanly demeaner as approval either.

Gentlemanly demeaner however is very takemuso and his communications quite clear and straight. No need for you to explain anything about him to me thank you.

Budo is love not nonsense.

Regards,G.
 
Old 02-24-2012, 04:13 PM   #225
DH
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Wow! Didn't know you could see something thats not a demo as a demo. That's quite a trick. Didn't know you were a spokesman for Gary either. Didn't see any gentlemanly demeaner as approval either.

Gentlemanly demeaner however is very takemuso and his communications quite clear and straight. No need for you to explain anything about him to me thank you.

Budo is love not nonsense.
Regards,G.
Graham
It is watching people move with weapons in their hand. And everyone....every one...that I know who is capable would think the same way. From a certain standpoint you have shown us enough; the way you hold a sword, handle a sword, swing a sword, your maai, your entry, your placement, your hasuji, your footwork is totally wrong. As I said, I would be the first to give you affirmation when I can see anything that is:
Traditionally correct
Martially correct
or even mechanically sound.
It will not change when you do a demo.
This tied into the comments I made about Gary. Many of us are trying to be nice -to you as a person- while we are striving to explain what your videos and dialogue reveal and give you a better education than that which is demonstrated in your responses. Hopefully it will be beneficial to your future endeavors.

Budo is love, not nonsense.
To some
Budo as love is nonsense

Dan
 

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