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Old 02-23-2012, 12:51 PM   #176
DH
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Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
You're being kind. Mistaken is a very nice word to be using here.

Graham -- look up the Haitorei Edict of 1876. That was 136 years ago. Heck, back in the 1930's it was still almost 60 years... Sword training, sword making, sword crafts nearly died out during Meiji. It was a niche thing at best as Japan was modernizing. And WWII almost killed it completely.
Hi Bud
Know one knows it more than the Japanese themselves, who know full well they can pick up a sword and have instant credibility beyond all evidence to the contrary. None-the-less budo people looking for a teacher will forever chose an Asian face over a white one-even when the white one can kick the Asian one all over the park and back. It just doesn't matter- they're Asain!!
I think people demonstrate regularly that they are not really interested in reality or vetted information as opposed to myths. Myths are more fun. I have run into people who have stated flat out that "To me Aikido is what ______ Sensei says it is." Somehow they think this is a display of love and loyalty. I think it's cultish.
Case in point:

Quote:
Graham writes: How anyone can believe a Japanese of that era in the martial world didn;t have some and probably lots of sword training is beyond me. I need no books to tell me that.
And that is what is wrong with Budo. "I need no books to tell me that!" In other words, He is finished learning. People have on several levels just stopped thinking.
Trying to get them to re-examine things in light of hard facts is a waste of time.
The bigger the art, the less effort people put into quality control.
The less effort put into quality control and censuring of misinformation
Then the more you have some seriously strange, even dangerous, practices out there...representing your art!
Dan
 
Old 02-23-2012, 12:56 PM   #177
DH
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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There are a number of very skilled and knowledgeable practitioners who simply don't post at all because doing so exposes them to endless streams of mindless rejoinders from ill-informed, poorly trained, and notably unaccomplished practitioners who are suffering from meta-cognitive failure to such an extreme degree that the result calls to mind the old proverb about the inadvisability of wrestling pigs...... Fred Little
You make your Aikido and you make your Aikiweb by the decisions and choices you make.

Dan
 
Old 02-23-2012, 01:00 PM   #178
hughrbeyer
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
as a side note, anyone know a good dimension(s) for tsuba? going to carve some out of a few pieces of left over wood. a friend has a wood router that might come in handy.
Don't, it's pointless. Or see my note above. Or if you must, drill two holes across the grain, one on either side of the bokken. Drive and glue in a dowel. Then at least when the tsuba fails, it won't go flying across the room.

Or go the whole hog and laminate one up like Kingfisher does.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 01:12 PM   #179
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Don't, it's pointless. Or see my note above. Or if you must, drill two holes across the grain, one on either side of the bokken. Drive and glue in a dowel. Then at least when the tsuba fails, it won't go flying across the room.

Or go the whole hog and laminate one up like Kingfisher does.
Think leather-rawhide. Thick and glue up your own thickness. the hole you cut, when dampened will stretch to fit and then dry. You can always get those plastic habaki to hold it place.
Dan
 
Old 02-23-2012, 01:24 PM   #180
Marc Abrams
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
don't you have something better to do than waiting around for his answers? go practice your sword works or eating a carrot of something and stop loitering around!

as a side note, anyone know a good dimension(s) for tsuba? going to carve some out of a few pieces of left over wood. a friend has a wood router that might come in handy.
Phi:

I will hop to it ! Us scholarly folk are very patient you know. Don't forget that eating a lot of carrots keeps our eyes strong so that we can remain eagle-eyed for inaccuracies.... As to the Tsuba, I found it more cost effective to buy mine from Kingfisher (amount of time taken, vs. hourly wage, vs buying it....).

Tha a a a t s A L L F o l k s....

Marc Abrams
 
Old 02-23-2012, 01:30 PM   #181
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Think leather-rawhide. Thick and glue up your own thickness. the hole you cut, when dampened will stretch to fit and then dry. You can always get those plastic habaki to hold it place.
Dan
i am thinking leather sandwich wood. wonder if i can put some steel spikes into the tsuba for some close-up works, maybe even a steel grater.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
 
Old 02-23-2012, 01:53 PM   #182
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
There are two ways to accommodate that reality: back off the intensity of weapons work, or take advantage of the added protection a tsuba offers. Which approach you choose is going to depend on your training philosophy generally, and what you hope to learn from weapons.

Katherine
There is also a third one:

Every type of work requires the appropiate tool. There are a lot of things in between shinai and shinken. Use them for what they are for.

 
Old 02-23-2012, 01:59 PM   #183
Keith Larman
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Bud
Know one knows it more than the Japanese themselves, who know full well they can pick up a sword and have instant credibility beyond all evidence to the contrary.
Yup, and the same extends in to the craft of the sword. I've had no shortage of people tell me I can't polish or mount swords because I'm not Japanese. It doesn't seem to matter to them that I'm *not* working on antiques anyway as I *do* know better. I.e., I know I *don't* know enough to work on antiques. But then I get to see blades in fresh polish from Japan and cringe knowing full well there are a couple non-Japanese I know who at least wouldn't have rounded out the damned lines and destroyed the overall shape. But when I'm with craftsmen and we start comparing things then those questions become irrelevant. And we talk, drink, share secrets, tell a few lies and get on with our lives. Then I come back to the on-line world and read page after page of blathering BS from people who wouldn't know a koto blade from a WWII entrenching tool... And so it goes. But we've been having this discussion for a long time, neh? Preaching, choir, etc.

In the end the work has to speak for itself. Just like waza.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
And that is what is wrong with Budo. [i]"I need no books to tell me that!"
Some just don't know how little they know... Things get said, get repeated, and soon something totally ridiculous becomes "common knowledge". All with the best of intentions I suppose.

 
Old 02-23-2012, 02:40 PM   #184
Marc Abrams
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post

Some just don't know how little they know... Things get said, get repeated, and soon something totally ridiculous becomes "common knowledge". All with the best of intentions I suppose.
Keith:

I love the expression that the road to success is littered with the bodies of those with good intentions. I think that those in pursuit of excellence and knowledge have an obligation to ensure that the roadkill is pushed to the shoulder of the road so as not to impede upon the already difficult path ahead. .

Regards,

Marc Abrams
 
Old 02-23-2012, 03:24 PM   #185
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
What if Tohei himself told you that? He was never coy about it, he really had no formal sword training - although he often taught with a bokuto. He even wrote it down, in "Ki no Kakuritsu".

That doesn't mean that what he was doing was bad (or good), but the assumption that anyone Japanese must have sword training is...mistaken, IMO.

Best,

Chris
So he taught bokken. As I said. Therefor he must have learned it first. As I said. I didn't say anyone Japanese. Why misquote me? Strange for a translator.

G.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 03:31 PM   #186
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
So he taught bokken. As I said. Therefor he must have learned it first. As I said. I didn't say anyone Japanese. Why misquote me? Strange for a translator.

G.
1) Lot's of people teach sword stuff without having learned it well (or at all), just take a look at:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...6285202&type=3

2) Your words, my emphasis:

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I think you'll find Tohei taught his own bokken work. How anyone can believe a Japanese of that era in the martial world didn;t have some and probably lots of sword training is beyond me. I need no books to tell me that.
Best,

Chris

 
Old 02-23-2012, 03:42 PM   #187
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Marc.
I think you'll find Tohei taught his own bokken work. How anyone can believe a Japanese of that era in the martial world didn;t have some and probably lots of sword training is beyond me. I need no books to tell me that.

Having said that I I have read other teachers mentioning sword or bokken training done with Tohei. In the video on Tohei posted here on the spiritual forum at the end of it he was using a bokken and explaining some principles before it cuts off. He was actually being a bit dismisssive of what many see as formal if I'm not mistaken.

.
Graham
As I have said before Tohei Sensei came to our dojo to teach a regular class several times as he had a direct relationship with our instructior from the 50's in Hawaii, I went to a number of seminars and to his demos when he was here in the 70's..... the only weapons work we did was some Jo....mostly the 22 Jo Kata. He didn't do bokken work any of the times I was present. My instructor had very good Jo skills, but it was very clear they had not come from Tohei Sensei.and Tohei Sensei had sat on his promotional board in Hawaii when Ishisaka Sensei took his shodan.

Gary
 
Old 02-23-2012, 03:42 PM   #188
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Graham:

Folksy stories are quite quaint! Far cry from facts. Obviously, facts are not all that important to you. Impressions and opinions and quaint stories seem to satisfy you. That is fine by you, but that is not how much of the world at large deals with the creation of and analysis of knowledge. Establishing facts about Aikido is an important element in accurately understanding our art. You might not believe this, but you might find yourself in the minority on this point.

You made a statement regarding your teacher's position on no tsuba on the bokken and directly related it to Ki Society teachings. NOBODY BUT YOU made that claim. I have simply asked for some more information, particularly since that information appears to be less than accurate and clear. All I get back are some nice folksy stories, followed by a position that facts are not really needed. I hope that there is more substance to this position than you have put forth so far.

Still waiting......

Marc Abrams
Alas the stories are facts. Quaint reply though.

You see also that you changing facts could be the problem, maybe you're unaware of your own action. I didn't relate it to Ki Society teachings thank you very much. Did I mention Ki society? No. Did I say exactly where he learned the sword and who from? No. So the assumptions are yours.

Now if you equate what I said with the Ki Society then I would assume you are talking about me saying what he said about shin shin toitsu. Now in brackets I explained how he meant by this what you would call sen no sen etc. Now his description of shin shin toitsu as a sen no sen was 'the tying of minds'

Now, the term and his use of it came from Tohei but his seeing how it applied to his sword work may or may not.

I report facts thank you. That's how he spoke yet strange how none of us leapt to the conclusion that he must have learned the sword from Tohei or even Noro. We don't know who else he trained with and consider it nosey to pry. I relate only what he told us. All else is private until offered.
G.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 03:51 PM   #189
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
1) Lot's of people teach sword stuff without having learned it well (or at all), just take a look at:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...6285202&type=3

2) Your words, my emphasis:

Best,

Chris
Tohei aint lot's of people. Therefor your emphasis irrelevent. Who's that fella who said Tohei was the best he had ever met in Aikido and learned bokken and jo from him? Takeguchi Sensei if that's the right spelling. I wonder where Seagal learned his? I wonder if there are any shihan who don't teach or haven't learned bokken?

G.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 04:01 PM   #190
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
As I have said before Tohei Sensei came to our dojo to teach a regular class several times as he had a direct relationship with our instructior from the 50's in Hawaii, I went to a number of seminars and to his demos when he was here in the 70's..... the only weapons work we did was some Jo....mostly the 22 Jo Kata. He didn't do bokken work any of the times I was present. My instructor had very good Jo skills, but it was very clear they had not come from Tohei Sensei.and Tohei Sensei had sat on his promotional board in Hawaii when Ishisaka Sensei took his shodan.

Gary
So what are you saying? It's a fact he learned it. It's a fact he taught it. It's probably also a fact he didn't emphasise it in the way some other shihan did or do. My teacher emphasized it, I don't. I use it more for an aid to learning as do some shihan and no doubt many teachers. I do emphasize the relationship of weapons to the motions and techniques though. I assume this is general knowledge in Aikido but by the looks of some of the statements given maybe not.

Tohei use it in this way in the video on this site. There in black and white.

Regards G.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 04:04 PM   #191
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Tohei aint lot's of people. Therefor your emphasis irrelevent. Who's that fella who said Tohei was the best he had ever met in Aikido and learned bokken and jo from him? Takeguchi Sensei if that's the right spelling. I wonder where Seagal learned his? I wonder if there are any shihan who don't teach or haven't learned bokken?

G.
Graham
Steven Seagal came out of the dojo I trained in, took his shodan in 1974 in Los Angeles and completed the Rondori part at Cal State Fullerton during a Tohei Sensei week end seminar. To my knowledge Steven's weapons work at that time and to the level it was then was a result of Ishisaka Sensei's training in the dojo. I don't recall that Steven Seagal spent more that a year or so with Tohei Sensei in Japan before he was off to the dojo in Osaka. Not much time spent in direct contact.

Gary
 
Old 02-23-2012, 04:07 PM   #192
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I wonder if there are any shihan who don't teach or haven't learned bokken? G.
While I'm sure he had some exposure to aiki-ken while he was training at Hombu, when I trained at NY Aikikai (1987-88) I never saw Yamada Sensei pick up a bokken, nor have I subsequently seen do him so on any one of a number of occasions when I saw him at seminars (or, for that matter, in any photos or videos). The late Sugano Sensei's "introduction" of suburi in some classes shortly after his arrival at NY Aikikai was taken as something of an innovation. (And even he discouraged people from making too much of his sword work with the phrase "If you want mochi, go to the mochi maker.").

So there's one.

FL

 
Old 02-23-2012, 04:11 PM   #193
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
You're being kind. Mistaken is a very nice word to be using here.

Graham -- look up the Haitorei Edict of 1876. That was 136 years ago. Heck, back in the 1930's it was still almost 60 years... Sword training, sword making, sword crafts nearly died out during Meiji. It was a niche thing at best as Japan was modernizing. And WWII almost killed it completely.
Yeah, like the Americans banned booze and guns are banned in the uk. Try banning the sword in Japan, a national symbol almost. By niche I take it you mean martial arts, official or unaofficial. Which equates precisely with what I said.

Common sense it greater than official edicts any day.

G.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 04:15 PM   #194
Marc Abrams
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Alas the stories are facts. Quaint reply though.

You see also that you changing facts could be the problem, maybe you're unaware of your own action. I didn't relate it to Ki Society teachings thank you very much. Did I mention Ki society? No. Did I say exactly where he learned the sword and who from? No. So the assumptions are yours.

Now if you equate what I said with the Ki Society then I would assume you are talking about me saying what he said about shin shin toitsu. Now in brackets I explained how he meant by this what you would call sen no sen etc. Now his description of shin shin toitsu as a sen no sen was 'the tying of minds'

Now, the term and his use of it came from Tohei but his seeing how it applied to his sword work may or may not.

I report facts thank you. That's how he spoke yet strange how none of us leapt to the conclusion that he must have learned the sword from Tohei or even Noro. We don't know who else he trained with and consider it nosey to pry. I relate only what he told us. All else is private until offered.
G.
Graham:

Your attempts at verbal sophistry are not very sophisticated or effective. Instead of trying to explain your way out of this one in a manner that is evasive at best, why don't you simply report back to us what your teacher said in response to the questions that I asked. If you choose to add to it, who he learned his "swordsmanship" from, by all means add it. Until then, Ta ta...

Marc Abrams
 
Old 02-23-2012, 04:18 PM   #195
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Tohei aint lot's of people. Therefor your emphasis irrelevent. Who's that fella who said Tohei was the best he had ever met in Aikido and learned bokken and jo from him? Takeguchi Sensei if that's the right spelling. I wonder where Seagal learned his? I wonder if there are any shihan who don't teach or haven't learned bokken?

G.
Lots of them - some of them even state it right out:

Quote:
I did go to one of the all-shihan meetings recently. Nidai Doshu asked if anyone had any more questions, and I said, "We should stop doing tachi-dori and jo-dori in public demos. There are lots of real swordsmen in the audience, people who've really trained with swords, and they know that we can't really do such techniques. We are making fools of ourselves." There was dead silence in the room. Finally Doshu changed the subject. Later, Saito-sensei came up to me. I thought he'd be angry, but he slapped me on the back and said, "Yoku itte kureta.'("Thanks for saying what needed to be said"). Well, maybe it needed to be said but nothing's changed, has it?

---Yoshio Kuroiwa
Fred mentioned Yamada - he's stated flat out that he never really studied the sword. In fact, he used to discourage people who tried.

Anyway, my comment wasn't about whether Tohei was any good or not, or what people "think" they learned from him - it was about whether or not he had any experience with the sword.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 02-23-2012, 04:19 PM   #196
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Fred Little wrote: View Post
While I'm sure he had some exposure to aiki-ken while he was training at Hombu, when I trained at NY Aikikai (1987-88) I never saw Yamada Sensei pick up a bokken, nor have I subsequently seen do him so on any one of a number of occasions when I saw him at seminars (or, for that matter, in any photos or videos). The late Sugano Sensei's "introduction" of suburi in some classes shortly after his arrival at NY Aikikai was taken as something of an innovation. (And even he discouraged people from making too much of his sword work with the phrase "If you want mochi, go to the mochi maker.").

So there's one.

FL
Mmmm. Which one? Yamada? You never saw it, so he didn't seem to emphasize it. Does that mean he never learned it or for that matter taught it?

It would be interesting to find one, maybe the odd one in the multitude.

Regards.G.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 04:32 PM   #197
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Yeah, like the Americans banned booze and guns are banned in the uk. Try banning the sword in Japan, a national symbol almost. By niche I take it you mean martial arts, official or unaofficial. Which equates precisely with what I said.

Common sense it greater than official edicts any day.

G.
By all means continue to use your "common sense"; it has served you so well so far. Forget the actual history, that's for those losers who can't make up their own!

 
Old 02-23-2012, 04:40 PM   #198
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
Steven Seagal came out of the dojo I trained in, took his shodan in 1974 in Los Angeles and completed the Rondori part at Cal State Fullerton during a Tohei Sensei week end seminar. To my knowledge Steven's weapons work at that time and to the level it was then was a result of Ishisaka Sensei's training in the dojo. I don't recall that Steven Seagal spent more that a year or so with Tohei Sensei in Japan before he was off to the dojo in Osaka. Not much time spent in direct contact.

Gary
Gary. What's with the Tohei connection? You lost me.

G.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 04:50 PM   #199
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Gary. What's with the Tohei connection? You lost me.

G.
Keith I got that Graham was indicating that Steven had received his weapons training from ToheiSensei. I don't think there was much time to do that and I didn't see in my limited time around Tohei Sensei that the bokken was of much interest to him....so Jo but not much. In those days he seemed to like Randori alot....
Gary
 
Old 02-23-2012, 05:13 PM   #200
graham christian
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Re: Why no tsuba?

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Fred Little wrote: View Post
While I'm sure he had some exposure to aiki-ken while he was training at Hombu, when I trained at NY Aikikai (1987-88) I never saw Yamada Sensei pick up a bokken, nor have I subsequently seen do him so on any one of a number of occasions when I saw him at seminars (or, for that matter, in any photos or videos). The late Sugano Sensei's "introduction" of suburi in some classes shortly after his arrival at NY Aikikai was taken as something of an innovation. (And even he discouraged people from making too much of his sword work with the phrase "If you want mochi, go to the mochi maker.").

So there's one.

FL
Oh well you just did me a favour, just watched two nice videos of Yamada Sensei and Sugano Sensei with bokkens. ( no tsuba of course)

Regards.G.
 

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