Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Weapons

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-22-2012, 09:46 AM   #151
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Marc. Enough talking. Enough empirical this and that.

I have met one person on here and shared my views briefly on the subject and we briefly did some bokken work.

I have named the teacher repeatedly and yet you still ask.

Forget empirical whatever and trying to tell me what I should do, if you want to know then when you have the time and are visiting then come see me otherwise There is no more to say really. If one of your students comes over here the same applies. I'm sure we can make him welcome.

More importantly though, I just thought of something. If you or anyone is so interested in my Teacher then it would be wise and even beneficial for someone of good standing and charachter (I know you like those words) to arrange a visit. Someone like Stanley Pranin for example for I'm sure he would be a great resource for information unknown about the 'early' years over here. A new source, more info, you'll love it.

If not then opinions can flourish but unfortunately not prosper.

Regards.G.
Graham:

Instead of alluding to a name, simply state it, rather than ask us to search for it. Where in that post, were we given any indication that this person was your teacher. Your teacher is not well-known. You made statements regarding your teacher's training to Henry Ellis, that he told you were simply not true. The early years in England are well documented. Henry Ellis is one, among several sources for good information.

If I am in your area, I would gladly take you up on your offer. The same thing applies to my school as well. That being said, I am not a teacher of a Koryu or Ryuha. I do not pretend that what I know about using a bokken represents any type of legitimate sword use. Simply try what you think you know with one of them and discover some larger realities in this universe. Have your teacher try that with a licensed instructor of a Koryu or Ryuha for that matter.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion. All opinions are not equal and not all opinions should flourish. Opinions that are strongly linked to reality tend to do better than others, except in the religious realm of things. Martial arts are not religious bodies of information. They are firmly rooted in reality. Reality is something that is empirically experienced. Martial arts experiences are no different and should not be treated as simply opinion. Holding people in the martial arts world to a lesser standard should be a taken as an insult by any respectable martial artist.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 02-22-2012, 09:50 AM   #152
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,035
United_States
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Graham:

Instead of alluding to a name, simply state it, rather than ask us to search for it. Where in that post, were we given any indication that this person was your teacher. Your teacher is not well-known. You made statements regarding your teacher's training to Henry Ellis, that he told you were simply not true. The early years in England are well documented. Henry Ellis is one, among several sources for good information.

If I am in your area, I would gladly take you up on your offer. The same thing applies to my school as well. That being said, I am not a teacher of a Koryu or Ryuha. I do not pretend that what I know about using a bokken represents any type of legitimate sword use. Simply try what you think you know with one of them and discover some larger realities in this universe. Have your teacher try that with a licensed instructor of a Koryu or Ryuha for that matter.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion. All opinions are not equal and not all opinions should flourish. Opinions that are strongly linked to reality tend to do better than others, except in the religious realm of things. Martial arts are not religious bodies of information. They are firmly rooted in reality. Reality is something that is empirically experienced. Martial arts experiences are no different and should not be treated as simply opinion. Holding people in the martial arts world to a lesser standard should be a taken as an insult by any respectable martial artist.

Marc Abrams
Hey, where's the "Like" button?

Best,

Chris

 
Old 02-22-2012, 10:55 AM   #153
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Graham:

Instead of alluding to a name, simply state it, rather than ask us to search for it. Where in that post, were we given any indication that this person was your teacher. Your teacher is not well-known. You made statements regarding your teacher's training to Henry Ellis, that he told you were simply not true. The early years in England are well documented. Henry Ellis is one, among several sources for good information.

If I am in your area, I would gladly take you up on your offer. The same thing applies to my school as well. That being said, I am not a teacher of a Koryu or Ryuha. I do not pretend that what I know about using a bokken represents any type of legitimate sword use. Simply try what you think you know with one of them and discover some larger realities in this universe. Have your teacher try that with a licensed instructor of a Koryu or Ryuha for that matter.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion. All opinions are not equal and not all opinions should flourish. Opinions that are strongly linked to reality tend to do better than others, except in the religious realm of things. Martial arts are not religious bodies of information. They are firmly rooted in reality. Reality is something that is empirically experienced. Martial arts experiences are no different and should not be treated as simply opinion. Holding people in the martial arts world to a lesser standard should be a taken as an insult by any respectable martial artist.

Marc Abrams
The last paragraph is my sentiments exactly. The teacher is real. What he recalls on history is his experiences not someone elses, thus another reality you don't know. What I witnessed was real. You not being there is also real and so you have only opinion. All opinion given honestly has merit.

He is still here, that's real.

Empirically experienced? How about experienced? forget the empirical additives.

In this real world of image and accreditations it becomes a playground for the biggest crooks and deceptive egos. All you need is the right documents and the right image and voila, perfect con man.

So forget all the academic reasoning and politics. For me an expert is someone who can do, not talk. If you think I have to repeat the name that I have told you on numerous occasions then it only shows me it's not worth saying to you as you tend to forget rather easily. It's on my profile so you don't have to look far.

Bottom line, he's there now, very real. If you cannot do , that is visit him yourself or someone as I described then you have my recollections. Shared information on a sharing information site.

Dan is an example of my way of thinking. I am not interested is his accreditations or image for they tell me nothing. He does what he says he does and that's all. That's as far as my interest goes.

I don't need to see any board tell me about him or to know his history or his qualifications or who his teacher was or even what he eats for breakfast. He can do what he says he can do. As for relationship to Aikido that's something else but nonetheless does not blind me away from the fact of ability.

You say Ihtbf and if I'm not mistaken agreed with or even said 'put up or shut up' yet all you seem to do is continuously ask for information, data. Do you not see this as contradictory?

Questioning what I say is a waste of time if all you can do is put it down for you have the choice to put up and come see for yourself, go visit my teacher, or carry on with your opinions.

There is much more to Aikido than the dojo and thus the message of Takemuso. This is not the wild west you know. (Although many places in London I visit are not far from it)

There is also much more to the sword practice than pretending you're a samurai and contesting with some master from some koryu for the practice alone builds strong spirit and charachter and this far outweighs any cowboy mentality of who's the faster draw. The foundations of which have served me personally very well in situations I would imagine you have never even been near but I try to keep away from such personal experiences as it's not about me.

Once again, nothing to prove. Been through that phase. Even been through the phase of going out sharing with all and sundry. Proving to me is now boring. Sharing, teaching and learning is my only interest.

So all those who want proof? Don't worry, you'll get over it when you realize it's a neverending path to nowhere.

So I think I have no more to say to you on the subject for my parameters are different to yours.

I respect all opinions. If I want to know more it is for me to go experience myself. Very simple.

Regards.G.
 
Old 02-22-2012, 12:43 PM   #154
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Marc. Enough talking. Enough empirical this and that.

I have met one person on here and shared my views briefly on the subject and we briefly did some bokken work.

I have named the teacher repeatedly and yet you still ask.

Forget empirical whatever and trying to tell me what I should do, if you want to know then when you have the time and are visiting then come see me otherwise There is no more to say really. If one of your students comes over here the same applies. I'm sure we can make him welcome.

More importantly though, I just thought of something. If you or anyone is so interested in my Teacher then it would be wise and even beneficial for someone of good standing and charachter (I know you like those words) to arrange a visit. Someone like Stanley Pranin for example for I'm sure he would be a great resource for information unknown about the 'early' years over here. A new source, more info, you'll love it.

If not then opinions can flourish but unfortunately not prosper.

Regards.G.
I would like to come visit you while I am in England in mid April; train and buy you dinner after.
Dan
 
Old 02-22-2012, 12:44 PM   #155
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 590
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Mmmm.... surrealy martial.

 
Old 02-22-2012, 01:01 PM   #156
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 402
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
... If you think I have to repeat the name that I have told you on numerous occasions then it only shows me it's not worth saying to you as you tend to forget rather easily. It's on my profile so you don't have to look far....
Is Graham trying not to type "mike muspratt"?; that's the name (all lower case) on his profile page.
 
Old 02-22-2012, 01:54 PM   #157
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Quote:
David Soroko wrote:
The relevant point is that the videos demonstrate that you are in no position to make categorical statements on the subject. Once again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt-aqDPqF7M&t=3m37s
.
I'm glad you think so.
G.
This is going to continue to come up thread after thread because it is generally felt that there are people here talking way over their paygrade...thread after thread. They don't "hear" themselves in light of more experienced people in Budo.
Many people who have skills either ignore this tripe or are sort of outraged that these people see themselves with any qualities that would add relevance to many discussions here. More so that they are teaching people this stuff in the name of Aikido or Budo. It's dangerously inept. People keep bringing it up out of concern for the community at large, for Aikido's integrity, and for general safety-particularly with weapons.

Graham
I have been trying to tell you this for a year or so. Saying those videos were not demonstrations but rather some sort of mumbo jumbo of making a point in class that none of us are capable of seeing fails on its face. You are talking to a room full of teachers, many with far more experience than you. FWIW, there is no reason, none what-so-ever, for any lesson in any class what-so-ever to engender the type of movement you display with a weapons, for any reason in a budo. From our stand point; the way you hold a sword, handle a sword, swing a sword, your maai, your entry, your placement, your hasuji, your footwork is totally wrong. I would be the first to give you affirmation when I can see anything that is:
  • Traditionally correct
  • Martially correct
  • or even mechanically sound.

Most of us have talked about it and just can't find anything relating to weapons. If you want to present a case that all of your videos are you showing every single thing that one could do wrong with a sword as THEE lesson...then you may have a point. Otherwise, I think you are harming yourself and your own reputation in a community of very capable and even expert adepts in weapons use. For those who care about the safety, veracity and competent use of weapons they will continue to challenge what you say and allegedly know, in light of what you show.
You seem a nice fellow. Take this as a word to the wise.

For the community at large
This is yet another case where you need to step up and do some self monitoring. Every day that you sit idle and grant and acknowledge equanimity of view to just anyone in your art....much less a teacher...is yet another day that you continue to see people leaving your art in droves world over. Attendance is down, the reputation of the at is down. As four Shihan-unrelated- said to me this year; "Aikido is all but dead." Bill Gleason said "Aikido has become a disgrace" and he told me to quote him. You guys need to step up and make some sort of standard that will bear testing in the internet era. I think Aikido should be one of the most powerful arts the world has seen with it's aiki and principles intact, being able to work cross platform with anyone. I can use it that way....and every one of you should have that as your goal and take the art back to the level last seen in Morihei Ueshiba.
FWIW, generally accepted equanimity, in opinion, unhindered and unrestrained is the chief reason many of the truly competent people will no longer offer anyone advice here. Their voices are drowned in a sea of meaningless and even dangerous advice.
As Fred Little stated:
There are a number of very skilled and knowledgeable practitioners who simply don't post at all because doing so exposes them to endless streams of mindless rejoinders from ill-informed, poorly trained, and notably unaccomplished practitioners who are suffering from meta-cognitive failure to such an extreme degree that the result calls to mind the old proverb about the inadvisability of wrestling pigs......

Day by day you make your arts reputation, you make your aikiweb experience.
Dan
 
Old 02-22-2012, 03:07 PM   #158
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,751
United_States
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

got whack in the knuckles once too often. not fun. reminded me when i got whack with the rulers by the teachers when i misbehaved in school (did that quite a bit. damn that evil phi always got me into trouble!). going to do some custom tsuba for bokkens.

reminded me of the comment, we should believe in god, because if god doesn't exist, we would still be ok; but if god happens to exist and we don't believe, then we are screwed. methink, i'll go with fear and paranoid, so far it kept folks away from my foods and drinks, not to mention go nowhere near Janet's kimchee!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
 
Old 02-22-2012, 03:46 PM   #159
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 915
Online
Re: Why no tsuba?

158 posts? Really?

It's hard to tell much from video, so I'm not going to form an opinion about what Graham can or can't do. But I would find his position on tsubas much more convincing if the linked videos involved attacks that might at least sting a little bit. With beginners, almost anything works and almost anyone can look like O Sensei.

Katherine
 
Old 02-22-2012, 03:59 PM   #160
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,925
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
reminded me of the comment, we should believe in god, because if god doesn't exist, we would still be ok; but if god happens to exist and we don't believe, then we are screwed. methink, i'll go with fear and paranoid, so far it kept folks away from my foods and drinks, not to mention go nowhere near Janet's kimchee!
Well, I don't believe in an afterlife but I do believe in an afterburn

Me, I don't like to be videotaped training because I already KNOW the errors in structure I'm making and don't want to rub my nose in them....

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
 
Old 02-22-2012, 04:40 PM   #161
Gerardo Torres
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 182
United_States
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

YouTube is full of footage of accidents with katana, with results too graphic to post here. It usually starts with some unqualified person or group playing around, wearing hakama and swinging bokken, then some newbie feels entitled to use a real sword to do some "iai" or whatnot... and ugliness ensues. Even if you stick to wooden swords there's the possibility of serious injury if you don't know what you're doing. Something to consider.
 
Old 02-22-2012, 04:43 PM   #162
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 590
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
158 posts? Really?
It's hard to tell much from video, so I'm not going to form an opinion about what Graham can or can't do.
Its not your general take on Aikido videos because: "I would find his position on tsubas much more convincing if the linked videos involved attacks that might at least sting a little bit" so there must be something specific in those videos that make it hard for you "to tell much". What is it?

 
Old 02-22-2012, 05:11 PM   #163
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 915
Online
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Its not your general take on Aikido videos because: "I would find his position on tsubas much more convincing if the linked videos involved attacks that might at least sting a little bit" so there must be something specific in those videos that make it hard for you "to tell much". What is it?
As I said, with beginners, almost anything works. I'm not sure the attacker could hit a wine glass hard or accurately enough to break it, much less connect with or do damage to a moving human target. And so it doesn't really matter whether Graham uses a tsuba or not: his wrist isn't going to get hit hard enough for him to care.

Katherine
 
Old 02-22-2012, 05:21 PM   #164
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 590
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
As I said, with beginners, almost anything works. I'm not sure the attacker could hit a wine glass hard or accurately enough to break it, much less connect with or do damage to a moving human target. And so it doesn't really matter whether Graham uses a tsuba or not: his wrist isn't going to get hit hard enough for him to care.

Katherine
But it is not the uke's abilities we are talking about but the teacher's. Shouldn't the teacher be technically sound regardless of how weak the uke is? Also, you don't hesitate to say that the uke is no good, why hesitate in regards to the nage?

Last edited by sorokod : 02-22-2012 at 05:31 PM.

 
Old 02-22-2012, 05:36 PM   #165
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 915
Online
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
But it is not the uke's abilities we are talking about but the teacher's. Shouldn't the teacher be technically sound regardless of how weak the uke is?
Yes.

But please go back and read my original post.

I am not taking a position on the technical soundness of Graham's weapons work. Video can be misleading. As an instructor myself, I know how difficult it can be to talk and demonstrate at the same time. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

But before I pay much attention to his opinion on tsubas -- or much of anything else -- I'd like to see him face an attacker who might actually be capable of hurting him.

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 02-22-2012 at 05:43 PM.
 
Old 02-22-2012, 05:53 PM   #166
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 590
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
...I'd like to see him face an attacker who might actually be capable of hurting him.
:-)

I have no doubts regarding the soundness of what Graham does and so don't think this will happen.

 
Old 02-22-2012, 06:52 PM   #167
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Just to get back to tsubas for a moment--anyone who's had their tsuba break and fly across the room should replace it with one from Kingfisher--triple laminated, just about indestructible--I haven't found it hard to retrofit to another bokken.
 
Old 02-22-2012, 09:21 PM   #168
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This is going to continue to come up thread after thread because it is generally felt that there are people here talking way over their paygrade...thread after thread. They don't "hear" themselves in light of more experienced people in Budo.
Many people who have skills either ignore this tripe or are sort of outraged that these people see themselves with any qualities that would add relevance to many discussions here. More so that they are teaching people this stuff in the name of Aikido or Budo. It's dangerously inept. People keep bringing it up out of concern for the community at large, for Aikido's integrity, and for general safety-particularly with weapons.

Graham
I have been trying to tell you this for a year or so. Saying those videos were not demonstrations but rather some sort of mumbo jumbo of making a point in class that none of us are capable of seeing fails on its face. You are talking to a room full of teachers, many with far more experience than you. FWIW, there is no reason, none what-so-ever, for any lesson in any class what-so-ever to engender the type of movement you display with a weapons, for any reason in a budo. From our stand point; the way you hold a sword, handle a sword, swing a sword, your maai, your entry, your placement, your hasuji, your footwork is totally wrong. I would be the first to give you affirmation when I can see anything that is:
  • Traditionally correct
  • Martially correct
  • or even mechanically sound.

Most of us have talked about it and just can't find anything relating to weapons. If you want to present a case that all of your videos are you showing every single thing that one could do wrong with a sword as THEE lesson...then you may have a point. Otherwise, I think you are harming yourself and your own reputation in a community of very capable and even expert adepts in weapons use. For those who care about the safety, veracity and competent use of weapons they will continue to challenge what you say and allegedly know, in light of what you show.
You seem a nice fellow. Take this as a word to the wise.

For the community at large
This is yet another case where you need to step up and do some self monitoring. Every day that you sit idle and grant and acknowledge equanimity of view to just anyone in your art....much less a teacher...is yet another day that you continue to see people leaving your art in droves world over. Attendance is down, the reputation of the at is down. As four Shihan-unrelated- said to me this year; "Aikido is all but dead." Bill Gleason said "Aikido has become a disgrace" and he told me to quote him. You guys need to step up and make some sort of standard that will bear testing in the internet era. I think Aikido should be one of the most powerful arts the world has seen with it's aiki and principles intact, being able to work cross platform with anyone. I can use it that way....and every one of you should have that as your goal and take the art back to the level last seen in Morihei Ueshiba.
FWIW, generally accepted equanimity, in opinion, unhindered and unrestrained is the chief reason many of the truly competent people will no longer offer anyone advice here. Their voices are drowned in a sea of meaningless and even dangerous advice.
As Fred Little stated:
There are a number of very skilled and knowledgeable practitioners who simply don't post at all because doing so exposes them to endless streams of mindless rejoinders from ill-informed, poorly trained, and notably unaccomplished practitioners who are suffering from meta-cognitive failure to such an extreme degree that the result calls to mind the old proverb about the inadvisability of wrestling pigs......

Day by day you make your arts reputation, you make your aikiweb experience.
Dan
Mmmm. Think you're missing the point once again. The thread is tsuba and the thrust of my comments I related to my old teacher and what I witnessed. I witnessed such comments as yours then so it's all old news to me.

Looks like I witnessed and experienced what you haven't by the looks of things. That means nothing really but alas I thought it may be interesting to hear another side of the coin.

If I took up some other sword art no doubt I would learn various nuances and techniques etc. but as I said this isn't about me.

He did things with the sword and bokken I doubt you could come close to. Some things I witnessed you would only find in some book of fiction. Thus I have seen potential. By a man with all of his fingers and knuckles still intact who didn't use a tsuba.

Then we come to the point of what he taught. Once again I witnessed 'others opinions of what should be versus his demonstration. He demonstrated with ease whilst they were lost for it didn't fit with what they knew. So you and your experts views may well fall into this category.

I heard his explanations so have a handle on what his 'secret' was, which in fact is no secret but as he said a failure of others to understand the relationship of Aikido and the sword.

He did say one of the tests he had to pass in his learning of such skills however which I will leave up to you swordsmen out there to recognise, or not, It involved a piece of paper. Now, if you are aware of such a test you can tell me what it involved. I'm sure I couldn't do that one as yet along with the fact that I don't personally have or train with a live blade.

Once again doing. What I saw him do I don't see anywhere near that on videos, aikido videos.

I've heard him explain to those from other arts how without shin shin toitsu as he called it then 90% of what they learned technically was a waste of time. By shin shin toitsu he was talking in the realms of sen no sen etc.

Didn't I read somewhere recently something written by you where you were explaining how you were just learning how the bokken returns to center after cutting or bounces back to so to speak? Didn't I read somewhere how you now make the end of a weapon 'heavy' via your experiments with your 'aiki'?

Do you consider this new?

Don't worry yourself about my reputation thank you based on what I show for I show nothing to astound or impress others, purposely I might add.

People leaving in droves? Maybe in the U.S. or big organizations so I suggest they look at themselves. London has many various Aikido styles and clubs all over the place. But hey, doomsday merchants arise in all fields of activity, nothing new there, especially ones who consider they are the elite. Standard procedure. Politics.

Anyway, you enjoy your challenging but more importantly just focus on what you do and have success and may all you teach learn well.

Regards.G.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 08:03 AM   #169
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Mmmm. Think you're missing the point once again. The thread is tsuba and the thrust of my comments I related to my old teacher and what I witnessed. I witnessed such comments as yours then so it's all old news to me.

Looks like I witnessed and experienced what you haven't by the looks of things. That means nothing really but alas I thought it may be interesting to hear another side of the coin.

If I took up some other sword art no doubt I would learn various nuances and techniques etc. but as I said this isn't about me.

He did things with the sword and bokken I doubt you could come close to. Some things I witnessed you would only find in some book of fiction. Thus I have seen potential. By a man with all of his fingers and knuckles still intact who didn't use a tsuba.

Then we come to the point of what he taught. Once again I witnessed 'others opinions of what should be versus his demonstration. He demonstrated with ease whilst they were lost for it didn't fit with what they knew. So you and your experts views may well fall into this category.

I heard his explanations so have a handle on what his 'secret' was, which in fact is no secret but as he said a failure of others to understand the relationship of Aikido and the sword.

He did say one of the tests he had to pass in his learning of such skills however which I will leave up to you swordsmen out there to recognise, or not, It involved a piece of paper. Now, if you are aware of such a test you can tell me what it involved. I'm sure I couldn't do that one as yet along with the fact that I don't personally have or train with a live blade.

Once again doing. What I saw him do I don't see anywhere near that on videos, aikido videos.

I've heard him explain to those from other arts how without shin shin toitsu as he called it then 90% of what they learned technically was a waste of time. By shin shin toitsu he was talking in the realms of sen no sen etc.

Regards.G.
Graham:

It would be great if your teacher, Mike Muspratt Sensei, could speak for himself here. What little I could find on him was related to you saying that your teacher was a student of Noro Sensei and Tohei Sensei. In this post you talk about your teacher's understanding of Shin Shin Toitsu (Ki Society). Maybe, you could ask your teacher to answer these questions, or encouraged him to post directly:

1) Ken Williams Sensei was the founder of Ki Society in England. What relationship did your teacher have with Williams Sensei?
2) Tohei Sensei spent little real time teaching in England. How many face-to-face hours did your teacher have with Tohei Sensei? (This is particularly pertinent since you claim that he was a student of Tohei Sensei). Was he a direct student of Tohei Sensei, or a student in that organization?
3) Tohei Sensei was never a student of any formal school of swordsmanship. How is that you can claim that your teacher had the understandings derived from Tohei Sensei regarding the relationship between the sword and Aikido? Does your teacher have any knowledge of what experiences Tohei Sensei had with any training in schools of swordsmanship? If so, please explain?

Simply put, some things that you report do not really seem entirely clear and accurate. Bear in mind that besides the wealth of a lot of public information regarding Tohei Sensei, I have a direct, first-hand source of information regarding Tohei Sensei (private and public information). I would greatly appreciate it if you could try and clear some of these things up for me (and the larger Aikido community).

Marc Abrams
 
Old 02-23-2012, 09:50 AM   #170
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Graham:

It would be great if your teacher, Mike Muspratt Sensei, could speak for himself here. What little I could find on him was related to you saying that your teacher was a student of Noro Sensei and Tohei Sensei. In this post you talk about your teacher's understanding of Shin Shin Toitsu (Ki Society). Maybe, you could ask your teacher to answer these questions, or encouraged him to post directly:

1) Ken Williams Sensei was the founder of Ki Society in England. What relationship did your teacher have with Williams Sensei?
2) Tohei Sensei spent little real time teaching in England. How many face-to-face hours did your teacher have with Tohei Sensei? (This is particularly pertinent since you claim that he was a student of Tohei Sensei). Was he a direct student of Tohei Sensei, or a student in that organization?
3) Tohei Sensei was never a student of any formal school of swordsmanship. How is that you can claim that your teacher had the understandings derived from Tohei Sensei regarding the relationship between the sword and Aikido? Does your teacher have any knowledge of what experiences Tohei Sensei had with any training in schools of swordsmanship? If so, please explain?

Simply put, some things that you report do not really seem entirely clear and accurate. Bear in mind that besides the wealth of a lot of public information regarding Tohei Sensei, I have a direct, first-hand source of information regarding Tohei Sensei (private and public information). I would greatly appreciate it if you could try and clear some of these things up for me (and the larger Aikido community).

Marc Abrams
Marc.
I think you'll find Tohei taught his own bokken work. How anyone can believe a Japanese of that era in the martial world didn;t have some and probably lots of sword training is beyond me. I need no books to tell me that.

Having said that I I have read other teachers mentioning sword or bokken training done with Tohei. In the video on Tohei posted here on the spiritual forum at the end of it he was using a bokken and explaining some principles before it cuts off. He was actually being a bit dismisssive of what many see as formal if I'm not mistaken.

Simply put what I say is clear and accurate. Whether you or anyone else want to join up the dots and cross the t's to do with him is up to you, I've pointed out a way for you or anyone to do so if they so wish.

I can share my experiences, only he can share his.

Questions 1, 2, and 3 therefor are not for me.

I mentioned to my friend only last night about what was being said here on Aikiweb regarding bokken and tsuba and how 'they' don't seem to have any idea about what Mike taught us. I then told him how I had mentioned that anyone of good standing could contact him and learn a whole load of stuff they are unaware of. We had quite a laugh over it.

You see, we KNOW him. Up to this point in time he has had no desire to involve himself in the politics and waffle of the so called intellectual Aikido set. Very much a man of my way or the highway attitude. Very much a man of correct way of doing things and this includes approached in the right manner, for ethical reasons and sound purpose. In other words, not to satisfy mere curiosity.

So I mentioned to Bob that you never know he may like to have his story told and so Bob said he is due to visit him soon so he will ask. I don't know if you read it but I reported how my friend (Bob) recently turned up to find him very ill and the family very worried. Bob soon changed that scene and he was back in the dojo teaching six weeks later (he hadn't been able to for six months) The student returns to help the master. Excellent

So patience may bring you what you are looking for.

Now let me see. Mmmmm. He did know and have a good relationship with those in charge of the nearby Yoshinkan dojo in bushey for at least ten years, probably much more than that and maybe even up to today. So if you come across or anyone knows the sensei(s) from that dojo from 70's up to 90's plus then they will know him quite well I would think.

There was a Japanese student of 20+ years still there when I left, Yoshi, who ran a hairdressers shop in Golders green. He has since moved back to Japan. But he had many contacts in the Japanese community and and martial world as well as chinese as he often brought them to visit. So someone reading this may know him. I learned much from him as to Japanese ways and customs and he loved the bokken. Ha, ha, to him Ki was simple and anyone came near him complaining or saying how bad anything is he would simply reply 'bad Ki, go!' I even saw him do it in his shop to one of his staff. He simply said 'today you bad Ki, go home!'

Now Tohei. Another friend of Mikes and aquaintance of mine went to Japan and thought he would pay Tohei a visit. I don't know how lucky he was or how he managed it but he was allowed brief meeting. (maybe because he was a foreigner who looked like a sumo and was always full of self importance) Anyway, he introduced himself and proceded to say (knowing him, boast) how he had been practicing shin shin toitsu in England and apparently Tohei just nodded politely and let him waffle on. Until Tohei enquired about his teacher. On hearing the name Mike Muspratt apparently Tohei only had a frown and puzzled look on his face. When he explained more about him and where he lived he said Tohei suddenly brightened up and got excited saying 'Ohhhh, yellow hair!' He then dissappeared and brought back a bunch of presents for 'yellow hair' including a hakama which was later passed down to me.

This showed a certain connection to me and personally I needed know nothing more. I leave all that to you scholarly folk.

Me personally, not interested in who your teacher is and who his was and on and on but see that some think it's so important to know all these details. So if Mike does agree then it would be good for him to have his story told and good for those into history to have some added data but in the big scheme of things, no big deal. If it makes him happy then I will be happy.

Who knows, you may convince him to use a tsuba ha, ha.

Regards.G.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 10:04 AM   #171
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,035
United_States
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Marc.
I think you'll find Tohei taught his own bokken work. How anyone can believe a Japanese of that era in the martial world didn;t have some and probably lots of sword training is beyond me. I need no books to tell me that.
What if Tohei himself told you that? He was never coy about it, he really had no formal sword training - although he often taught with a bokuto. He even wrote it down, in "Ki no Kakuritsu".

That doesn't mean that what he was doing was bad (or good), but the assumption that anyone Japanese must have sword training is...mistaken, IMO.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 02-23-2012, 10:09 AM   #172
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 915
Online
Re: Why no tsuba?

I thought the debate was about what Graham himself can (or can't) do. We all have teachers who can do things that we personally can't: that's why we are their students.

On the issue of tsuba specifically, we can all trace our lineage to a teacher who was so untouchable that he didn't need one. But none of us are O Sensei.

There are two ways to accommodate that reality: back off the intensity of weapons work, or take advantage of the added protection a tsuba offers. Which approach you choose is going to depend on your training philosophy generally, and what you hope to learn from weapons.

Katherine
 
Old 02-23-2012, 10:57 AM   #173
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Graham:

Folksy stories are quite quaint! Far cry from facts. Obviously, facts are not all that important to you. Impressions and opinions and quaint stories seem to satisfy you. That is fine by you, but that is not how much of the world at large deals with the creation of and analysis of knowledge. Establishing facts about Aikido is an important element in accurately understanding our art. You might not believe this, but you might find yourself in the minority on this point.

You made a statement regarding your teacher's position on no tsuba on the bokken and directly related it to Ki Society teachings. NOBODY BUT YOU made that claim. I have simply asked for some more information, particularly since that information appears to be less than accurate and clear. All I get back are some nice folksy stories, followed by a position that facts are not really needed. I hope that there is more substance to this position than you have put forth so far.

Still waiting......

Marc Abrams
 
Old 02-23-2012, 11:59 AM   #174
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,536
United_States
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
That doesn't mean that what he was doing was bad (or good), but the assumption that anyone Japanese must have sword training is...mistaken, IMO.

Best,

Chris
You're being kind. Mistaken is a very nice word to be using here.

Graham -- look up the Haitorei Edict of 1876. That was 136 years ago. Heck, back in the 1930's it was still almost 60 years... Sword training, sword making, sword crafts nearly died out during Meiji. It was a niche thing at best as Japan was modernizing. And WWII almost killed it completely.

 
Old 02-23-2012, 12:48 PM   #175
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,751
United_States
Offline
Re: Why no tsuba?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Still waiting......

Marc Abrams
don't you have something better to do than waiting around for his answers? go practice your sword works or eating a carrot of something and stop loitering around!

as a side note, anyone know a good dimension(s) for tsuba? going to carve some out of a few pieces of left over wood. a friend has a wood router that might come in handy.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
 

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lightweight iaito - where to find? peter martin-browning Weapons 14 11-07-2006 01:40 PM
The meaning of omote and ura kokyu Techniques 53 11-11-2005 03:01 PM
Is a tsuba necessary? Solarius Weapons 13 02-10-2005 01:21 PM
First Bokken Jeff Lynne Weapons 11 06-18-2004 08:20 PM
tsuba Paula Lydon Weapons 30 05-09-2003 01:39 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:03 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate