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Old 02-15-2012, 10:31 AM   #26
Budd
 
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Re: Aikido, Rickson Gracie and Connection

I would say there's utility in using that as a training device to feel the connection between yourself and another - and it's one tactic for making a solid connection between you and someone else (center on center). But with someone that has some level of baseline skills, it will be harder to plug into their center that way - some you won't be able to find, others will use your attempt to reflect it back on you (aiki, baby).

FWIW
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Old 02-15-2012, 11:58 AM   #27
Marcoh
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Re: Aikido, Rickson Gracie and Connection

Thanks Budd that make sense to me!!
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Old 02-16-2012, 01:10 AM   #28
Josh Lerner
 
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Re: Aikido, Rickson Gracie and Connection

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I would say there's utility in using that as a training device to feel the connection between yourself and another - and it's one tactic for making a solid connection between you and someone else (center on center). But with someone that has some level of baseline skills, it will be harder to plug into their center that way - some you won't be able to find, others will use your attempt to reflect it back on you (aiki, baby).

FWIW
Or your attempts will be successfull on someone without any internal baseline skills, yet still backfire. I was training in BJJ a few weeks ago, on my back, with my left leg up in the air. My training partner was on his knees grasping my leg from the underside of it, kneeling with his left knee on the inside of my right thigh. He was trying to straighten my leg and do a knee bar, but it was relatively simple for me to transfer the force he was applying to my leg back through his frame and back into the ground. So in terms of my left leg, I felt totally safe.

The problem was that, due to our relative positions, the force that I was so skillfully sending back through him into the ground was getting redirected down into the ground through the knee (and it was a very pointy knee) that was on my inner thigh. I couldn't squirm out of it without damaging something, so I tapped. I think that is called winning the battle but losing the war.

Come to think of it, that seems to be a running theme in my attempts at using internal skills in grappling.

Josh
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Old 02-16-2012, 09:07 AM   #29
Lee Salzman
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Re: Aikido, Rickson Gracie and Connection

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Josh Lerner wrote: View Post
Or your attempts will be successfull on someone without any internal baseline skills, yet still backfire. I was training in BJJ a few weeks ago, on my back, with my left leg up in the air. My training partner was on his knees grasping my leg from the underside of it, kneeling with his left knee on the inside of my right thigh. He was trying to straighten my leg and do a knee bar, but it was relatively simple for me to transfer the force he was applying to my leg back through his frame and back into the ground. So in terms of my left leg, I felt totally safe.

The problem was that, due to our relative positions, the force that I was so skillfully sending back through him into the ground was getting redirected down into the ground through the knee (and it was a very pointy knee) that was on my inner thigh. I couldn't squirm out of it without damaging something, so I tapped. I think that is called winning the battle but losing the war.

Come to think of it, that seems to be a running theme in my attempts at using internal skills in grappling.

Josh
It's more than a running theme, I think. You lost the war because you tried to win the battle.

I seem to regularly lose against training partners who are both less practiced grapplers and less practiced at jin and other qualities, if only because while I am wasting what little concentration I've got during a grappling session on trying to practice those qualities AND submit the other guy, they're just more worrying about how to submit me. By that, I mean, they're doing the same training as me, just less of it, and with less supervision. And sadly, about 7 times out of 10, I lose. So much for seniority.

The submissions themselves just get harder the 'better' you try to do them. You can do a guillotine choke, or you can do a guillotine choke with jin. A standard issue guillotine choke is easier, but ultimately more limited, due to being isolated movement. A guillotine choke with jin is damned near impossible to pull off without getting right pathways of connection through the upper body... and therefor, I rarely ever pull it off during sparring yet.

It seems in the short run adding more complexity to it just makes us suck all that much worse, and take that much longer to improve, at the actual end product, grappling skill.
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Old 02-16-2012, 10:14 AM   #30
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Re: Aikido, Rickson Gracie and Connection

So, I think from a BJJ perspective, if you're thinking position before submission - optimizing your Jin and connecting from the other guy's center, I find it's a HUGE aid in always being ahead of the other guy's "loop". Now, if their technique is much better, then it evens out or I'm still stuck (and that's a different problem when you lose control of the engagement, it's tempting to lose control of things that aren't burned into your "way of being" and you're working towards) behind their loop (for different reasons). Also playing a big part are my respective levels in IS development and grappling.

All that being said, when I go for submissions, I'm in the same conundrum - the way I learned to execute those techniques was "wrong" from a pure "ideal" movement perspective. So, while I retrain how I fundamentally move and "be", I also have to rework the techniques from the ground up, so to speak, to be consistent with IS principles. Depending on the caliber of the BJJ school, there are fewer "conflicts" in how the techniques are taught, but more on the assumptions I bring when I try to execute them with my old understanding as it bumps up against what I'm working towards.

So, to simplify, if I focus on the basic things of "connecting center to center", "mentally manage the support of the ground and gravity between us in an optimal manner that will allow me to maintain an optimal position" and then how I receive additional external forces that the other person brings in their efforts to impose their will . .. ALL of this before even worrying about going for a submission . . . I then tend to be in a much better place to apply a submission, or frustrate the other guy into making a mistake, OR (most important to my overall training) be in the best place to escape, deploy a weapon, hit them with knees, hands, elbows, feet, head, shoulder, etc.

Basically, sticking to the basics, working within the specific form, but training a lot of things at once - regardless of whether I get tapped or tap the other person. Of course, it's also not a big focus for me right now, but probably in another 6 months to a year, I'll be getting back into the mix more regularly from a pressure testing perspective.

Last edited by Budd : 02-16-2012 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 02-16-2012, 09:33 PM   #31
notdrock
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Re: Aikido, Rickson Gracie and Connection

And guess what? In years to come I bet you Gracie goes "We've developed a connection training exercise called Pushing Hands" lol

Seriously, the West is one of two things: too arrogant to think, observe and study true Asian arts; or just miles behind.

For the last 30 years I've been studying, the amount of criticism Aisan arts gets makes me laugh as I watch Western fighters develop "new" and "unique" exercises to help fighters that have already been used in Asian arts for centuries.
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Old 02-17-2012, 06:38 AM   #32
Marcoh
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Re: Aikido, Rickson Gracie and Connection

I hear what you are saying Luke and agree. I think this is what Rickson Gracie is doing now when talking about connection, sensitivity etc. I can't find the link but in an interview he does give credit to Tai Chi, and he is very in tune with the ideas of Budo and the Eastern arts, as far as exercises like push hands BJJ do have drills like Flow and Slow rolling designed to develop sensitivity, flow and connection.
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Old 02-17-2012, 06:57 AM   #33
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Re: Aikido, Rickson Gracie and Connection

Conection is connection with all arts if we can get out of the way.
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Old 02-17-2012, 08:08 AM   #34
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido, Rickson Gracie and Connection

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Mark Hance wrote: View Post
I hear what you are saying Luke and agree. I think this is what Rickson Gracie is doing now when talking about connection, sensitivity etc. I can't find the link but in an interview he does give credit to Tai Chi, and he is very in tune with the ideas of Budo and the Eastern arts, as far as exercises like push hands BJJ do have drills like Flow and Slow rolling designed to develop sensitivity, flow and connection.
See: http://www.global-training-report.com/orlando.htm

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Old 02-17-2012, 01:05 PM   #35
Marcoh
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Re: Aikido, Rickson Gracie and Connection

Cheers Demetrio, that's what I was talking about, nice find!
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