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Old 02-14-2012, 02:40 PM   #26
kvnmcwebn
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Re: Suwari waza

Cheers Demetrio.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:18 PM   #27
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Suwari waza

Quote:
Kevin McMonagle wrote: View Post
joe here is an example of what i'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1KSBYmmxFo

as you can see the guy in red shorts is spending a lot of time standing in a posture that is similar to your suwari waza. It is called combat base in bjj, but you can see that it is not fluid and he is double weighted. That is the posture I usually fight from but i knew there must be a better way of doing it. So now I found it with matthews link. thanks
That's pretty cool! Thanks for the link!
Also, I wanted to mention I don't think "shiko" is always a better way of moving around from the knees. I do think it's a great way of lossening and strengthening the hip area while woring on staying deep in the base. I can see where it would be impractical to keep the feet together, paricularly after watching a couple of related BJJ videos.
I really liked this one. He shows a kind of shiko with another person attached to it as he transitions into side-mount.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 02-14-2012 at 03:22 PM.

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Old 02-14-2012, 05:10 PM   #28
sakumeikan
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Re: Suwari waza

Quote:
Kevin McMonagle wrote: View Post
joe here is an example of what i'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1KSBYmmxFo

as you can see the guy in red shorts is spending a lot of time standing in a posture that is similar to your suwari waza. It is called combat base in bjj, but you can see that it is not fluid and he is double weighted. That is the posture I usually fight from but i knew there must be a better way of doing it. So now I found it with matthews link. thanks
Dear Kevin,
Thanks for the vid.From what I have seen in I see little if anything done on this vid which can be related to Aikido Suwari waza techniques. Having been a Judoka prior to studying aikido I see a similarity [more than in Aikido ] in Judo.You use Sankaku [triangular ]leg work to defend. No Judoka would start Newaza from a position which resembles a sitting position as shown by the lad in the dark shorts.There is on the vid limited use Tate Shiho Gatame [Upper body pin]and Yoko Shiho Gatame [ pinnning from the side.] Of course this is a drill not a contest so obviously the full range of potential immobilisations or submissions may not be part of the drill.I saw numerous points where choke applications and arm locks could have been applied .
Still the guys were keen enough and showed good spirit. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 02-14-2012, 05:57 PM   #29
kvnmcwebn
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Re: Suwari waza

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Kevin,
Thanks for the vid.From what I have seen in I see little if anything done on this vid which can be related to Aikido Suwari waza techniques. Having been a Judoka prior to studying aikido I see a similarity [more than in Aikido ] in Judo.You use Sankaku [triangular ]leg work to defend. No Judoka would start Newaza from a position which resembles a sitting position as shown by the lad in the dark shorts.There is on the vid limited use Tate Shiho Gatame [Upper body pin]and Yoko Shiho Gatame [ pinnning from the side.] Of course this is a drill not a contest so obviously the full range of potential immobilisations or submissions may not be part of the drill.I saw numerous points where choke applications and arm locks could have been applied .
Still the guys were keen enough and showed good spirit. Cheers, Joe.
Joe I apologize for my ignorance. It is only because I don't understand the techniques properly that I have to ask dumb questions. Edited to say though that the lad in the dark shorts who is starting from a sitting position similar to shikko is Marcelo Garcia...

Also edited to say that you may note his record shows that he beat Rolles, Roger and Rezo gracie on multiple occasions.

Last edited by kvnmcwebn : 02-14-2012 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:04 AM   #30
sakumeikan
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Re: Suwari waza

Quote:
Kevin McMonagle wrote: View Post
Joe I apologize for my ignorance. It is only because I don't understand the techniques properly that I have to ask dumb questions. Edited to say though that the lad in the dark shorts who is starting from a sitting position similar to shikko is Marcelo Garcia...

Also edited to say that you may note his record shows that he beat Rolles, Roger and Rezo gracie on multiple occasions.
Dear Kevin,
No need to apologise.I have limited understanding of BJJ.I am sure Mr Garcia is competent at his own method.All I am saying is I do not see his art bearing any real resemblance to Aikido . Cheers, Joe.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:16 AM   #31
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Suwari waza

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Kevin,
No need to apologise.I have limited understanding of BJJ.I am sure Mr Garcia is competent at his own method.All I am saying is I do not see his art bearing any real resemblance to Aikido . Cheers, Joe.
Hi Joe,

In the clip Kevin posted you see things that make no sense from a Judo perspective, but BJJ rolling and Judo randori are different games.

OTOH, there are similarities between bjj and aikido, but they are not evident in the sense of "techniques" (you are not going to see shihonage or ikkyo pins in bjj). The similarities are more in the flowing, movement, management of forces, relaxation...

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Old 02-15-2012, 05:19 AM   #32
sakumeikan
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Re: Suwari waza

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi Joe,

In the clip Kevin posted you see things that make no sense from a Judo perspective, but BJJ rolling and Judo randori are different games.

OTOH, there are similarities between bjj and aikido, but they are not evident in the sense of "techniques" (you are not going to see shihonage or ikkyo pins in bjj). The similarities are more in the flowing, movement, management of forces, relaxation...
Dear Demetrio,
Judo has the same concepts in Ne Waza , ie Tori should be relaxed , he should neutralize the movement of Uke, where required Tori has to manoeuvre /be prepared to change his position in response to ukes defence strategy.So as you say you will not see shihonage in judo/bjj. Since judoka are rarely pinned down, face down,check out Judo newaza Kata, ikkyo is unlikely to be applied.If a judoka turns his back on Tori , the usual primary strategy is to use shime waza.eg okuri eri jime, hadaka jiujime.Possibly M.M.A/B.J.J would use the naked strangle [hadaka jiujime]if no jackets were worn by the combatants??? Cheers, Joe.
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Old 02-15-2012, 04:18 PM   #33
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Re: Suwari waza

The waza is different, but I think there is still commonality that can be used to focus on certan principles. The beginning and the end of some of these techniques look similar to Aikido suwari waza positions (the approx. 3 to 3:30 minute marks show what I would basically think to be good suwari waza; at 3:17 he even does some shomenuchi ).
This is a video showing a sequence of ikkyo involving the kikyo foot position, which is similar to the shikko shape with the knees off the mat (the knees are nice for poking into the ribs too). I think it might be important because it's a transition point between standing and sitting kamae/postures. I believe it is important to be able to move between them, at will. Between shikko (horizontal hip/spine rotation around the central axis) and the strong vertical alignment of kikyo, I remember having a better sense of my "central pillar" upon which to rest the weight/force of my training partner, as well as to drive into them. Not that I was ever very good at it; but that was the sense I got from it. Hopefully others with more experience can describe what they're doing in suwari practice a bit more clearly (and with more authority) than I can.
Again, I am very out of practice, so please forgive my somewhat ignorant ideas, but my sense of practicing shikko (stepping/walking in suwari) was that it helped me to think of moving with a stable base; using that base to displace my partner; it also helped me to clean up my hip rotation, which I'm now trying hard to reclaim (I'm easing back into suwari/seiza very slowly).
The bad thing I know of is the potential for wear and tear on the knees, which can quickly get pretty bad. I believe this can be avoided, but it's a pretty common problem according to some folks. Too much lateral movement within the knees, for example.
Per my studies of an independant form of Aikido, and lacking though I know my training is, I consider suwari waza to be a major part of developing various parts of the body to move with power. I'm not sure exactly how it would apply to BJJ, but I find the "combat base" to be a very compelling starting point for looking into it further, and believe the principles of a strong and supple posture relates regardless of the particular form of waza.
To my mind, suwari waza is only a half-step away from the foot-forward "butterfly guard" position I used to practice against with my friends. I like to practice kata while moving from tachi to kikyo to seizaho to anzato to newaza ("kohokamae?"). Each height level seems to inform the others with respect to maintaining that strong vertical alignment we generally try for.
My two bits, at any rate.
Thoughts?
Take care,
Matt
p.s. sorry if this is a bit jumbled as I'm juggling my wee lads while I type (my focus needs more focus).

Last edited by mathewjgano : 02-15-2012 at 04:22 PM.

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Old 02-18-2012, 10:49 PM   #34
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Re: Suwari waza

So what do folks focus on in suwari practice? What does it lend itself to? Why do we have suwari practice in Aikido?

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Old 02-19-2012, 06:30 AM   #35
graham christian
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Re: Suwari waza

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
So what do folks focus on in suwari practice? What does it lend itself to? Why do we have suwari practice in Aikido?
Hi Matthew.
The focus for me is purely and only the learning of energy harmonization. The receiving of the 'force', (to center) (accepting) and then the redirecting of it.

For instance, you get a person pinning your wrists to your thighs, you learn to do tenchinage from that position. Now technically, you would have to bow forward slightly, let the opponents force say push your left wrist down (by letting it slide off of the outside of your thigh) meanwhile with your right hand you turn the force in and up center line and out to a circle. Turn them, moving from the knees, maintaining the flow, and pin.

Energy manipulation. Learning the ways and paths of energy motion. Learning the ways and paths of harmonious energy motion. Learning the ways of using center. (and koshi for that matter)

These exercises can be made more and more difficult where the partner is allowed more and more to try and block whatever you are trying to do, however you are trying to harmonize and lead and thus can be done at all levels.

You learn to eventually feel where the 'openings' are and they are always to do with the rules of energy motion.

So that's my use for suwari waza. It's also therefor a great Ki development exercise.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:08 PM   #36
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Re: Suwari waza

Hi Graham,
Thank you for replying to my questions! In your opinion, are there any key differences between suwari and tachi waza?
To my mind it's (suwari) been really helpful for creating a feeling for how my hips connect to my femurs...and thus, to some small degree, how to use them in conjunction.
I just got back from OHarae at Tsubaki America Jinja and sat in seiza longer than I have in a long time. Except for the knees, it felt quite good, like my spine was sitting on the ground, giving it a very supported feeling I don't usually get while standing. When I'm standing there is a constant shifting that goes on as certain muscles get tired; sitting seiza and reading norito provides a very still feeling and from that still feeling came a surprising sense of body awareness: my thighs felt "full" and they had a mutual presence with respect to centerline (where they felt like they were pressing on each other while they physically were not touching). Then I noticed this, tried to engage it even more, and it changed the nature of how I was sitting and areas of tension sort of took dominance, diminishing the pleasant effect I had enjoyed.
Anyhoo...my thoughts on seiza ho per today's experience...
Thank you again for sharing your view and approach for suwari waza!
Take care,
Matt

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Old 02-19-2012, 04:35 PM   #37
graham christian
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Re: Suwari waza

Hi Matthew.
Good question.

Although my answer, or rather the instance I gave was more kokyu dosa, the suwari waza are an extension from there.

Key differences between that and tachi waza? Well my first thought is none, ideally.However, from the view of learning then there are many things to learn from each.

Suwari waza at first are much harder from one perspective yet surprisingly easier from another. On the one hand they are uncomfortable for those not used to doing anything from the knees. My own view on this is to learn how to move from center, practicing tai sabakis for example until you viryual float around without hardly any pressure on the knees.

One thing it teaches you is that a giant is easy to handle. If you are doing from your knees whilst the attacker is standing attacking then it represents handling a very large person. Weight underside is also very useful here. Short people get to learn how easy it is to bring the other down to their own size rather than be overwhelmed by size.

Anyway, as all has to be done from center and the hips then the reality of such increases, the awareness of alignment increases, the awareness of the basics increases. It's amazing to discover how the 'legs' get in the way of correct movement.

From tachi waza as I said the movement ideally should be an extension of suwari waza. So it's usually what you need to stop doing from tachi waza rather than looking for key differences in my opinion.

From the knees for example you can't do 'too many steps' for if you did you would topple over. You learn to glide more than up down steps.

In fact when I see up down motion through 'stepping or walking' I say that is a mind going up and down, not stable. Same goes for someone bouncing around in front of you 'sparring'.

Thus from standing minimum steps should be used, just like the motion in suwari waza. For example I would discipline someone to do a complete 180 degree tai sabaki which takes you around and behind the opponent to two steps only. Secondly to learn how to glide rather than step thus moving from center rather than head.

So really the only difference I would say is amount of space you can cover from standing in a shorter period of time and that's about all really. Suwari waza and indeed kokyu dosa give you eventually that stability and oneness feeling you should carry through to tachi waza.

Well they are my initial thoughts and responses to you question. Hope it helps.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:33 AM   #38
nickregnier1
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Re: suri waza

Quote:
Kevin McMonagle wrote: View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76wDVn9Hl0M

yes thanks I meant suwari waza. What are the principles of this posture anybody?
Just wanted to comment on the video showing suwari waza and hanmi handachi techniques, that I find the techniques brutal in my opinion. The techniques should be executed with control and LOOKING AFTER our partner not bashing him. Harmony should be found and in this video, I could not see this and the techniques seem rushed with little Zanchin in the end. That said, if these points were taken on board the teacher would execute very good techniques. (That is my opinion).
Coming back to the principles of Suwari Waza, I would say that the back is to be straight and the feet remain together and the movement forward should be done by bring one knee up and then the feet stay together for the backward movement the knees move together (without lift one knee up this time) and spread your knees sideways by keeping the back straight and keeping the same direction (keep your head facing forward whilst moving back or forward). Difficult to explain but easier to demonstrate here...

Hope this helps...

Regards,

Nick

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