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Old 02-13-2012, 08:25 AM   #26
lbb
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Re: Integrity in our Aikido Community

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
A couple of well known internet personality types taken from: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/war...igdogmetoo.htm
Interesting how the author assigns gender. It doesn't appear to be random.

Cum grano salis,
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:53 AM   #27
phitruong
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Re: Integrity in our Aikido Community

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Plain or Chunky?

dps
Plain with Honey mixed. Chunky messes up with the aerodynamics, not to mention the chunky stuffs get stuck in your teeth and messing up the integrity of your denture.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 02-13-2012, 10:19 AM   #28
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Integrity in our Aikido Community

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I think this is more Aikido and more about integrity than many things written on the subject.

http://youtu.be/ayWIpJP7BOc

Regards.G.
“When the Europeans first came here, Columbus, we could drink out of any river. If the Europeans had lived the Indian way when they came, we’d still be ...”

...eating each other like the caribbean people or performing massive human sacrifices aztec style.

Native american new age'ish "wisdom"... no thanks.

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Old 02-13-2012, 10:44 AM   #29
tlk52
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Re: Integrity in our Aikido Community

Many practitioners seem to feel that the aspects that they're comfortable with are true Aikido and the parts they're not comfortable with are not. sort of making Aikido over in their own image etc....
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Old 02-13-2012, 12:31 PM   #30
jonreading
 
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Re: Integrity in our Aikido Community

I have started of few of these types of threads so I feel I should participate...

1. Yes, everyone has an opinion; no, they are not valued equally. It is an obligation of those who post opinion to substantiate their position. Sometimes, the ethos of the poster is sufficient, sometimes the validity of the claim or the position is uncontested (or "common knowledge"). However, the social science of making unsubstantiated opinions is detrimental to the ethos of the poster.
2. Integrity is an individual trait, expressed within a community. The community is considered to possess integrity if the if the persons within the community possess integrity. You may argue whether persons who train aikido comprise a community, or persons who have an aikiweb account are part of a community, but those are traits in common.

Aikiweb certainly has a number of posters who are not concerned with substantiating a position but they want the position treated with respect. This is a hypocritical stance and not conducive to establishing a reputation of integrity. We see doctors when we want a weighted medical opinion, lawyers when we want a weighted legal opinion, accountants when we want a financial opinion. We send our children to college to earn a degree, which carries a educational weight. We listen to nutritionists who teach us how to change our eating habits. We hire personal trainers to help us reach our fitness goals. Yet, on Aikiweb anyone who posts to a thread should be considered with equal weight? Right, show me a yudansha book filled with 3, 4 and 5 dan seminars (who all have knowledge to contribute)...

As for some of my own personal comments:
1. Until I know who "expert economists" are, I will continue to ignore their expert opinion, especially when they do not recant their in-corrections. I weigh personal opinion less when it is unsubstantiated, or not first-hand recollection. Prove to me that you are worth hearing.
2. I object, your Honor! Heresay, circumstantial, inductive and non-specific evidence is not evidence. I weigh less opinion that relies upon shoddy evidential support. Not faith - I go to church for that.
3. If O'Sensei jumped off a cliff... Seriously, O'Sensei is not Moses. Respect what he did, avoid relying upon his word. If he transmitted the knowledge, there is someone else who can also express what O'Sensei meant.
4. We have this great expression in the South, "Bless your heart." It is not good - it refers to the extreme failure of accomplishment, to the point of sympathy (i.e. he tried so hard but he failed so miserably that I feel sorry for him). When a poster goes out on a long limb and shows neither compassion for what she said, nor perspective for those she is trying to illuminate, I stop reading. This section includes "you do not understand" as a response. These are just embarrassing.

When I write I try to meet these criteria:
1. I write from a position that gives value to my opinion
2. I provide support for my claims (the more extreme, the more support)
3. I try to use contemporary, valid and specific support for my opinions
4. I try to express my position with respect to the opposition and compassion for the weight and damage my words may cause.

I weigh what I read very carefully; someday I want to be a somebody in aikido. I do not want to be a 4, 5 or 6 dan that people do not care about. I don't want to persevere through aikido and look back at 30 years and go, "wow, I suck for 30 years of my life and thousands of dollars in costs." The information I respect is that which helps me steady my course. I want the challenge to say, "think that's it, huh? Okay, see you in 5 years and we'll compare notes."
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:00 PM   #31
Tim Fong
 
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Re: Integrity in our Aikido Community

Marc,
Thank you for your post, you described very well the reasons that I have drastically curtailed my posting here at Aikiweb. I hope people listen to what you are saying.

Best,
Tim
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:03 AM   #32
chillzATL
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Re: Integrity in our Aikido Community

I respect the ideal that Marc is putting forth in this thread, I really do, but I gave up looking for integrity in online discussion decades ago. I learned to engage the people that comport themselves in a way that I enjoy and ignore the ones who don't. It's really that simple, ignore them, don't respond, tune them out. Do you engage every person on the street that you hear saying something foolish or something that you don't agree with? No, of course not. Then why feel the need to do it here? You just shake your head, tune them out and continue having your discussion with those who converse in a manner you're comfortable with, agree or disagree. It's crazy I know, and difficult for us humans for some reason, but it works and it really makes places like this everything they can be.

some other points:

Some people simply do not have the ability to engage in discussion where they will be disagreed with, where there is general disagreement or where there are simple differences in opinion. A lot of the people that say they stopped coming here for this or that reason simply aren't being honest with themselves.

I find this forum in general, the moderation, discussion and the people to be among the top 1% of forums I've participated in and I've participated in hundreds in the last 25 years. I'm not sure some of you know what it's like "out there". Civil discussion is a rarity, yet IMO 99% of the discussion here remains civil. The few episodes in recent times where it started veering out of that territory could have easily been remedied by people ignoring the persons posts, but they couldn't. WHEN IN DOUBT, IGNORE. We even have technical ways to have the site do it for us, but few seem to use it and instead get frustrated with what others are saying.

again, when in doubt, ignore.

barring that, make suggestions to Jun for technical things he can implement to make the site better. Anything that eliminates some of the human judgment will always be better than the ones that depend on it. I've emailed him several times with suggestions and he's always read and responded to them. One of the more recent trends on message boards that I like is the ability to upvote and downvote individual posts. After a post hits a certain downvote threshold, it becomes hidden unless specifically unhidden by each user and if it gets downvoted further it will disappear completely. This is a pretty hands off method of moderation that allows the mob to police itself without the mob mentality changing the tone of the discussion. There are lots of creative things out there like this that could probably be implemented here if requested enough.
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:43 AM   #33
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Integrity in our Aikido Community

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
WHEN IN DOUBT, IGNORE. We even have technical ways to have the site do it for us, but few seem to use it and instead get frustrated with what others are saying.
It's not so simple.

There is a responsability towards the aikido people who still have not the ability to discern what is reliable information and what is bs. If bs remains unadressed, silence means assent.

OTOH, I would not like to see downvoting posts as an alternative to debate. Mob justice, censorship and anonymous bandwagoning are no substitutes for discussion.

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Old 02-14-2012, 10:47 AM   #34
David Orange
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Re: Integrity in our Aikido Community

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
It's not so simple.

There is a responsability towards the aikido people who still have not the ability to discern what is reliable information and what is bs. If bs remains unadressed, silence means assent.

OTOH, I would not like to see downvoting posts as an alternative to debate. Mob justice, censorship and anonymous bandwagoning are no substitutes for discussion.
Wouldn't want people to be able to block a post by downvoting, but there could be a tally box or someting showing percentage approving and disapproving, maybe.

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-14-2012, 10:58 AM   #35
Keith Larman
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Re: Integrity in our Aikido Community

I agree that at some level we all have a duty to call BS. Of course there will be disagreements and unhappy people. Leaving things that are wrong unchallenged simply shouldn't be an option on a forum devoted to a particular topic. In my world of the sword craft I have posted enough to have written a book by now (which isn't a bad idea). Part of that is me working out my own understanding but also trying to bring some balance to what is often really naive junk posted as truth and common sense. Often the biggest problem is the "you don't know what you don't know" aspect. And we see it here. People training with like-minded individuals who find their magical hand-wavy stuff working on all their happy students. The whole "great wise guru sensei" vibe starts and pretty soon we have yet another aiki "master" floating about. Their world is one of reinforcement and agreement. All while the rest of the world continues to investigate, translate, and try to understand what was going on. And when things get too far out in left field we really have to stand up and say "Wait a minute -- that's simply not the case."

I've read more tortured logical fallacies here on this forum than in most others. In other contexts, like my beloved traditional sword crafts, what I tend to see is simply an incomplete knowledge-base. There's not many experts, just a lot of enthusiastic folk maybe going too far and assuming too much from what little they know. Here we have the same starting point, but somehow with the whole "I'm a sensei" stuff it gets blown so much further. And then add in to this decades of folk doing exactly that. So we have what in some cases is silliness with a lineage.

This isn't going to be an easy change as more information comes out and as more evaluation happens as to what *really* happened (as if that's entirely possible anyway).

Enough time has passed where we should be looking back with a more critical eye. And that will also mean remaining steadfast in finding an objective viewpoint with those who aren't willing to either look back critically or look at themselves critically.

Yes, I think there are groups who went their own direction with their own "takes" on what it was all about. I think if they're happy with what they're doing, fine, more power to them. I have zero problems with different styles and differing philosophies, even the more idiosyncratic self-styled types. However, if those folk are going to assert equivalence or martial effectiveness or greater efficacy (and so on), they should be prepared to accept that others will strongly disagree. I'm perfectly happy being told I'm wrong. I'm perfectly happy telling someone else they are wrong. I'll present what I can as evidence and I expect the other to do the same and not rely on mysterious sensei, etc. And if someone offers up logically faulty answers, misrepresentations, misunderstandings of translation, well, don't be surprised if people will point them out as piss-poor responses to what are serious questions for many of us.

Enough of my rant for the day.

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Old 02-14-2012, 10:59 AM   #36
Keith Larman
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Re: Integrity in our Aikido Community

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Wouldn't want people to be able to block a post by downvoting, but there could be a tally box or someting showing percentage approving and disapproving, maybe.

Cheers.

David
Am I the only person who routinely rates threads already? It's there on every thread. I can't count how many long threads I've rated as a 1 only to see 3 other ratings.

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Old 02-14-2012, 11:28 AM   #37
chillzATL
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Re: Integrity in our Aikido Community

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
It's not so simple.

There is a responsability towards the aikido people who still have not the ability to discern what is reliable information and what is bs. If bs remains unadressed, silence means assent.

OTOH, I would not like to see downvoting posts as an alternative to debate. Mob justice, censorship and anonymous bandwagoning are no substitutes for discussion.
I don't know man, I disagree. It seems the problems are:

1. People posting BS (subjective)

2. The debate surrounding said BS

3. People wanting proof in some form to verify if the BS is really BS or not.

1 and 2 are what they are. If it's BS you call it BS, respond to any meaningful follow-up and you leave it at that, move along. It doesn't have to devolve into 16 page long threads full of back and forth nonsense that goes nowhere. When it comes to 3, if you ask and aren't obliged, then you just file it as BS and move on. You've had your say, you've tried to advance the facts, anyone who comes along reading it is going to see what took place and make their judgments. I'm not here to shepherd the masses through the valley of evil. If someone is doing something (aikido or "real life") and they're accepting it at face value, not researching, questioning and thinking for themselves, that's on them, not me. You will not change anyones opinion who doesn't want to let it be changed. That's a fact driven home by the internet every second of the day. So beyond doing the above, what more do you do?

Also, most of the vote systems like I referenced are obviously configurable. You don't configure them so that 4-5 downvotes are going to k-line every post. You set it so that the number represents a significant enough of a portion of your viewership to matter, but not be controlled by one faction. Also, most of them don't delete posts, they just hide the text of the post saying it's been downvoted "click here to view anyway". So people can still see a post that enough people though was BS enough to warrant the post being blackholed if they want to. These systems work fine and I've yet to see blackholed posts that weren't complete crap. It's not uncommon to see someone post their own followup when being downvoted to better clarify what they wanted to say. I find them fairly self-correcting.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:29 AM   #38
chillzATL
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Re: Integrity in our Aikido Community

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Am I the only person who routinely rates threads already? It's there on every thread. I can't count how many long threads I've rated as a 1 only to see 3 other ratings.
I do as well, though to be honest I usually only rate the threads that I find to be really good. If they're bad I rarely 1 star them. I don't think a thread by thread rating is sufficient though.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:43 AM   #39
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Integrity in our Aikido Community

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I don't know man, I disagree. It seems the problems are:

1. People posting BS (subjective)

2. The debate surrounding said BS

3. People wanting proof in some form to verify if the BS is really BS or not.

1 and 2 are what they are. If it's BS you call it BS, respond to any meaningful follow-up and you leave it at that, move along. It doesn't have to devolve into 16 page long threads full of back and forth nonsense that goes nowhere. When it comes to 3, if you ask and aren't obliged, then you just file it as BS and move on. You've had your say, you've tried to advance the facts, anyone who comes along reading it is going to see what took place and make their judgments. I'm not here to shepherd the masses through the valley of evil. If someone is doing something (aikido or "real life") and they're accepting it at face value, not researching, questioning and thinking for themselves, that's on them, not me. You will not change anyones opinion who doesn't want to let it be changed. That's a fact driven home by the internet every second of the day. So beyond doing the above, what more do you do?
Ditto. With whipped cream and a cherry on top!

Pauliina
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:23 PM   #40
Janet Rosen
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Re: Integrity in our Aikido Community

I think voting or anything else is an absurd form of mob censorship.
If you have an opinion, express it (civilly). If you have facts to disprove somebody's opinion, present them (cogently). If don't like a thread, don't read it. If you don't like a person IGNORE him/her.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:58 PM   #41
Keith Larman
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Re: Integrity in our Aikido Community

Yeah, I use the already extant rating system on posts I think are great or on posts I think are terrible. And I find that the ignore list is rather helpful for my blood pressure as well. You can always click on "view post" to see that person's stuff if you need to. Keeps me reasonably sane...

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Old 02-14-2012, 05:14 PM   #42
Robert Cowham
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Re: Integrity in our Aikido Community

I agree with a number of posters here - there's a ton of BS spouted, lots of egos, people with seemingly incredible amounts of time to get involved - and at least prove they weren't wrong! (http://xkcd.com/386/).

This sort of thing has been going on for ever - but the internet just made it a whole lot worse:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you're_a_dog

It can be hard to convey meaning, humour etc - and most people just dash stuff off, wade into flame wars etc.

Some of us were around in the days of Aikido-L and rec.martial-arts when it was read via NNTP. (Still there: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.m...s/topics?pli=1) - just found my first post on that group - showing my age!

To my way of thinking, getting value out of participating online is a bit of a maturity/intelligence test - until you work out a reasonable way of dealing with it, it is rather like a Sisyphean punishment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus - no doubt there is a Shinto mythological equivalent).

I skim topics, and have to say that one very effective speed reading technique is to check the poster's name first... No doubt I miss lots of interesting and useful stuff, but I still get value for dipping in, and am grateful to many posters (and of course to Jun for his support of aikiweb). However, there are lots of other things I need to get on with in life - including physical practice of aikido!

Meanwhile, I have had some huge value out of personal meetings which were informed and/or inspired by online exchanges - that's the mother lode for me. And long may it continue.

As for how to resolve issues, those of you who have seen Harry Hill will know the only possible answer!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np6gyUb0E7o#t=0m15s
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