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Old 06-24-2011, 01:24 PM   #451
Aikibu
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

In my experience Athletes learn faster and adapt easier than those with no athletic ability in almost any physical endeavor including any Martial Art. That's just a law of nature. Some of us have natural ability some don't. Elite Athletes further distinguish themselves by how hard they practice their craft. I know I am stating the obvious here...but after reading this thread I thought the point should be made.

William Hazen
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:14 AM   #452
Efe Yucemen
 
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Hello all,

Very interesting discussion!

Im not sure if this qualifies as "internal"but there is the concept of "spirit training", as can be found in many different external martial arts. Will power, determination, grit, whatever you want to call it.

I believe in aikido this is achieved in misogi training sessions with very high repetitions of suburi or newaza.

Im sure we have all witnessed many boxing, judo, bjj, wrestling (or even tennis) matches where this will power has determined the outcome.

Dont know if this answers the OP's question exactly.

Cheers
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Old 02-08-2012, 07:54 AM   #453
phitruong
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Efe Yucemen wrote: View Post
Im not sure if this qualifies as "internal"but there is the concept of "spirit training", as can be found in many different external martial arts. Will power, determination, grit, whatever you want to call it.

Cheers
two different things.

internal power = mind control of body internal structures to do some sort of physical work -> in contrast with athleticism. for example, Chen Taichi internal, koryu internal, and so on.

internal power = will power, toughness, strength of spirit, don't quit, etc and etc. for example, Ghandhi, Mother Teresa, and so on.

you will find folks argue the two points above against each others. pretty much talking pass each others.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 02-08-2012, 08:59 PM   #454
notdrock
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Thumbs up Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Hi Chris,

I have often thought about if "internal" was "superior" to being athletic or not.

Issai Chosanshi has a great proverb in his book "The Demon's Sermon on Martial Arts" that is a discussion between a sparrow and a butterfly which I won't go into too much detail about but I think applies to this issue:

(Totally paraphrasing here) a sparrow expresses concern to a butterfly about having to become a clam in its next life. In a nut shell, the butterfly makes the sparrow think about if it regrets being a sparrow because for all it knows in its past life it could have been an Apache Gunship blowing stuff up. The sparrow says no because it thinks its always been a sparrow, and the butterfly is like "Well, when you're a clam you'll always think you were a clam because that is the chi which you will then carry, so don't worry.."

As a human evolves it become less and less likely that athleticism can be maintained. The youthful are genetically strong, fast and fit. Then the fear of becoming weak and elderly sets in, and we become like a sparrow fearing becoming a clam, so seek to reassure ourselves that "internal" is better than athleticism because we want to feel like we are heading into something better and not something worse. It's a part of what humankind has had in most civilizations, and that is the transformation from a child to an adult, a rite of passage. And like always its a scary thing.

So to me this is the seed from which the debate of "internal" being superior to athleticism stems. A fear of evolving and growing. The fact is, if one maintains his art, as age gets on athleticism declines, chi grows.

At the end of the day, we are what we are based on the chi the universe has given us. Maintain respect, morals and work hard, this is the crux of martial arts at its peak. It's fertilizer for being human

Last edited by notdrock : 02-08-2012 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 02-09-2012, 07:43 AM   #455
phitruong
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Luke Hobbs wrote: View Post
So to me this is the seed from which the debate of "internal" being superior to athleticism stems. A fear of evolving and growing. The fact is, if one maintains his art, as age gets on athleticism declines, chi grows.

At the end of the day, we are what we are based on the chi the universe has given us. Maintain respect, morals and work hard, this is the crux of martial arts at its peak. It's fertilizer for being human
your point of view is exactly why the debate became fierce. it's not about fear of growing old and getting weak, physically. budo folks are quite aware of their mortality. as i mentioned above, one is a physical training paradigm/method and the other, about attitude. a number of folks can't seem to separate the two. one can have good physical internal power to be unstoppable, but a wretched human being. one can be physically weak and feeble, but an incredible model person for a human. an example, a chen taichi master and Mother Teresa.

as a martial artist; Chen taichi master is better than Mother Teresa
as a role model of a great human being: Mother Teresa is better than Chen taichi master

here when we talked about internal power vs athleticism, we are talking about physical training paradigm, not about attitude.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:37 AM   #456
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
as a martial artist; Chen taichi master is better than Mother Teresa
as a role model of a great human being: Mother Teresa is better than Chen taichi master
You aren't even safe pulling out Mother Theresa as an example. Some people seem to disagree about even that. Maybe you should have picked Mary Poppins; she's not a real person so not as messy... maybe.
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:18 AM   #457
phitruong
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Maybe you should have picked Mary Poppins; she's not a real person so not as messy... maybe.
can't use Mary Poppins because she can fly like those chinese kungfu folks who flew around on top of bamboos and roof tops. talking about fighting on top of bamboo, the bamboo around here kept snapping off as i got on. i think the western bamboo aren't strong enough; certainly, it cannot possibly because i am a bit on the heavy side.

* ever notice good kungfu movie usually has fight scenes in bamboo forest or on roof top? *

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:56 AM   #458
Lee Salzman
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
can't use Mary Poppins because she can fly like those chinese kungfu folks who flew around on top of bamboos and roof tops. talking about fighting on top of bamboo, the bamboo around here kept snapping off as i got on. i think the western bamboo aren't strong enough; certainly, it cannot possibly because i am a bit on the heavy side.

* ever notice good kungfu movie usually has fight scenes in bamboo forest or on roof top? *
Eh, but is it really internally powered flight if she needs an umbrella to do it? Those Chinese kungfooey dudes didn't need any umbrellas. If she's holding the umbrella, that's one less hand she can hold a weapon with. Don't think the umbrella would be able to function as a weapon either because she needed to hold it above her, so no hidden-sword-in-umbrella tricks are possible, unless she wishes to crash land on the kungfooey dude and impale him simultaneously with the umbrella, then the hidden-sword-in-umbrella trick is fine.
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Old 02-09-2012, 12:15 PM   #459
Janet Rosen
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Eh, but is it really internally powered flight if she needs an umbrella to do it? Those Chinese kungfooey dudes didn't need any umbrellas. If she's holding the umbrella, that's one less hand she can hold a weapon with. Don't think the umbrella would be able to function as a weapon either because she needed to hold it above her, so no hidden-sword-in-umbrella tricks are possible, unless she wishes to crash land on the kungfooey dude and impale him simultaneously with the umbrella, then the hidden-sword-in-umbrella trick is fine.
ALL UNECCESSARY. She has the Deadly Schoolmarm Stare of Death.

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Old 02-09-2012, 01:59 PM   #460
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

And the Circus Ponies are her Friends
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