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Old 01-31-2012, 07:43 AM   #51
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
There are videos of Noro doing Aikido ...
Yes, I know. Do you know this one?

Asai sensei, the shihan of the "aikikai of Germany " (which I don't belong to, I'm Member of the Federation led by Endo and Tissier [> FFAAA > Noro again] ), who has shaped the aikido in Germany in a large part is a close friend of Noro sensei. And I think the form of the aikido in the "aikikai of Germany" is due to this connection.

Quote:
Just adding a bit more information for you.
Thank you very much. ;-)
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:55 AM   #52
Marc Abrams
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Noro Masamichi (the first video Dan posted) was one of the early pioneers of aikido Europe.
After a severe car accident he couldn't do budo anymore. He gave back his shihan-title to hombu.

He then developped special movement patterns which have roots in aikido, but are closely connected to some different "moving systems", health gymnastics, hara training, contact work and things like Feldenkrais and Euthonie.

Noro sensei clearly doesn't claim his way of moving aikido! He clearly doesn't claim it to be a budo!
Officially it is called: "aiki no michi - Methode (method of) Noro".

Because of his special situtiation the "Methode Noro" is Member of the french aikido federation FFAAA:

French
Federation of
Aikido -> Christian Tissier
Aiki Budo -> Mochizuki Minoru
Affinitaire= related -> Ki no michi, Noro Masamichi

So the videos of Noro sensei should definitely not be used to understand aikido.
The Methode Noro is meant to do harmonical, cooperative Movements. And in the view of Noro sensei this clearly distinguishes it from aikido or budo.
Carsten:

Thank you for providing us with that very important information. I would certainly be curious as to what the function and purpose of the method is. Are there stated goals?

I keep looking back in time to the abilities of the major figures in Aikido, not just O'Sensei, in order to gain some understanding as to how they could do what they did, how they trained to get to where they were, and how they personally manifested their unique versions of Aikido. For example, many people who advocate a style of Aikido that is sourced from Tohei Sensei (Ki Society), are strong advocates of 100% cooperative training. Some even claim to do well what Tohei Sensei could do. The yard stick to which I would want to hold them to would be to do what Tohei Sensei did. When he came to Hawaii for the first time, he took on five accomplished judoka at once. No accounts of that event described it as being some cooperative, love fest. Tohei Sensei defeated them, period. If people want to claim for themselves some version of Aikido that cannot work in some type of setting as that, or deny the "need" to subject themselves to such scrutiny, then maybe they should take a road traveled like Noro Sensei and described what they do as being RELATED to the martial art of Aikido.

We can debate day in and day out as to exactly how we should be able to define Aikido. I for one, embrace the idea that Aikido is an art about Peace and Harmony. I place those philosophical goals squarely within the realm of martial arts. I am always seeking to maintain peace and harmony, even if that means having to act in an effective, martial-arts manner, restoring peace and harmony when confronted with conflict, discord, etc.. I believe that to be at the heart of budo. O'Sensei demonstrated that ability; Tohei Sensei demonstrated that ability; Imaizumi Sensei still demonstrates that ability. If that is my lineage, then I consider my obligation/duty to live up to that lineage. To me, true peace makers are the martially effective people who can restore peace and harmony in order to protect themselves and others.

My teacher, and his teachers before him, trained very hard, where the training and real-life experiences went far beyond 100% cooperative training. This history enables my teacher to remain calm and focused, regardless of whether you attack him properly (who among us has not done the wrong attack as an uke, by mistake....), try and mess with him, try and stop him, try changing the paradigm.... It simply does not matter to him, and he will control you and the experience. Remarkably, he does so in a manner that nobody gets hurt. I believe that if I am to reach and/or surpass his level (which is what I train to do every day), then I must work on remaining calm and centered, regardless of the nature and intent of the attack. If I fail, I pick my self up (proverbially speaking, or really picking my self up) and get back to work again until I can do what I need to to to keep the peace and harmony, regardless of the circumstances. I have yet to see all 100% cooperative training yield any kind of benefit for my stated goals. I do see the value in training cooperatively in a safe trusting setting, in which the people are increasingly trying to add resistance, stop the technique and attack any perceive openings. It should be to the point where you can ask a person to attack you any way, manner, shape and form that he/she would like. If you can routinely manage to control the situation and stop the attack, then you are on the right track. If you cannot, you must work harder and harder.

People can agree to disagree with me, that is fine, this is how I train and why I train that way. I have an open dojo in which anybody is welcome to come and train. We all test ourselves in a spirit of camaraderie with the higher goals as stated above. We check our egos in at the door and pick them up on the way out, while having a blast training hard, laughing and joking our way through an increasingly tougher training environment.

Marc Abrams
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:57 AM   #53
graham christian
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Yes, I know. Do you know this one?

Asai sensei, the shihan of the "aikikai of Germany " (which I don't belong to, I'm Member of the Federation led by Endo and Tissier [> FFAAA > Noro again] ), who has shaped the aikido in Germany in a large part is a close friend of Noro sensei. And I think the form of the aikido in the "aikikai of Germany" is due to this connection.

Thank you very much. ;-)
Thanks. No I hadn't seen that particular early footage of Noro. That was much appreciated. Neither had I seen Asai Sensei. Very interesting.

Kanetzuka Sensei also said to me he was a great friend of Noro, by the way his eyes lit up and the accompanying smile which went with the communication when I mentioned the name I could see he had great admiration for the man.

Thank you for the added information.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-31-2012, 08:29 AM   #54
gates
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

I heard an account that at one particular seminar in the 60's when Noro Sensei first came onto the mat he bellowed, "My name is Noro". At which point large pieces of plaster board started falling off the ceiling !

Enjoy the journey
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Old 01-31-2012, 08:41 AM   #55
graham christian
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I was just thinking about this the other day, the difference between cooperative and collusive training.

Most training is cooperative - I really don't see how skills can be developed or imparted without cooperation at some point, whether it is direct teacher-t-student contact, or a training overseen by a teacher.

Kata-based training is certainly cooperative. Even if the kata involves a full-power attack.

Resistance can be cooperative. Progressive resistance is obviously cooperative, but full-power resistance can also be cooperative if the technique is designed to overcome full resistance, such as some jujutsu I have seen, and I believe Iwama training goes through cycles like that.

Kali / escrima flow drills are cooperative...even if one side is trying to do "outpace" the other such that they can get a cut in. Western boxing training using focus mits and striking pads and such is also cooperative.

I think it is fair to say that a "contest" element of training, such as judo randori, rolling, or free sparring, is not entirely cooperative. But IMO you don't see that as more than a component of training....even in BJJ they practice technique. They may not want to admit that they train cooperatively but they do.

Collusion is not the same thing as cooperation....collusion, I would define as when someone tanks in a surprising or unexpected fashion during training. Particularly if it leads nage to believe they did the throw. That's what gives the whole concept of cooperation a bad name - the idea that it might actually delude or ruin the training of the thrower by making them feel that they can do things that they cannot. This is the root of the old outsider view of Aikido as pointless. But I've never really experienced it personally. (I think the collusion between the instructor and his or her uke as they are demonstrating a technique is a slightly different category of thing....since that would be about allowing the teacher to show something, and not to improve the teacher's skills.)

What I have experienced in Aikido is a real problem....there is an encouragement in my style and some others to do the "free flowing" thing....to suddenly flow into another technique. Or to try to reverse a technique. This can make for some beautiful exchanges of energy on the mat. It can also bring out the worse in some people. People will often decide to change techniques or attempt a reversal for egotistical reasons. I think this gets away from both cooperation and collusion, but it is bad - you can teach your partner to be scared or distrustful on the mat, and you can injure them.
Yes Cliff, that's basically what I am saying. Thanks for the reply.

Your view of what you find to do with 'free flowing thing' as you call it, the 'flowing into another technique or reversal of technique' I find interesting too. I have seen this a lot and see where you are coming from. Sometimes I feel the people doing it are missing the point somehow and too busy trying to look impressive.

The main point is though is that of itself it is a skill, it is a very good part of Aikido, it is a very hard part of Aikido to learn. Therefore done properly it is good.

The problem in my opinion can only be to do with when? or how? it is taught and personally I feel it is more to do with the when?.

Once again I see it as the 'everyone wants to do the impressive stuff' syndrome. Everyone wants to start at the top type attitude.

That's just me though.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-31-2012, 08:47 AM   #56
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

@ Dan: Thank you for your detailed response.

I certainly don't mean that safety is just my concern.
I agree that Aikido technique is not the way to become centered.
Practicing Aikido technique after you have learn how to be centered can enhance being centered (if that makes any sense) ;o)

Thanks for your patience...again I see we are saying pretty much the same thing. )

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Old 01-31-2012, 08:59 AM   #57
graham christian
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
I heard an account that at one particular seminar in the 60's when Noro Sensei first came onto the mat he bellowed, "My name is Noro". At which point large pieces of plaster board started falling off the ceiling !
Ha, ha. I vaguely recall something about someone doing that, was that him?

On watching the video pointed out by Carsten though and the distance he threw the uke on it that did make me recall a story from my teacher that he told us, one of those you think Mmmmmm.

He told us they were practicing in a place where there were wooden rafters going across from the tops of the walls where you can see through to the roof above. Maybe a barn or something. Anyway, he said on this occasion being now confident as uke and being able to handle his powerful throws that Noro sent him clean up and over one of the rafters.

One of those where you wonder if there's any exaggeration going on there but nonetheless that's what he told us.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-31-2012, 01:32 PM   #58
SeiserL
 
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Rather than use to describe or differentiate between types of training if I was asked about it by some inquiring mind I would say all training is 100% cooperative or else it is not good training.
IMHO, if we agreed to cooperate through compliance to learn skill drills, this is useful.

If we have agreed to resist through noncompliance to learn validity (effectiveness and efficacy), this is also cooperative and useful.

"Wisdom is knowing the difference"

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 01-31-2012, 01:32 PM   #59
hughrbeyer
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

Another thank-you to Carsten for the background information on Noro Sensei. I had seen and been baffled by what he's doing before this--it's good to know the origin and motivation.

@Mary, why ask Dan how he teaches shihonage? He doesn't teach aikido... he just teaches aikido teachers. And when I hear someone who's done aikido for 40 years, 10 in Japan and the other 30 running his own dojo, say how much he learns from a day with Dan, I assume Dan does adequately well with that.

Since I do practice aikido and IP skills, if I can take a stab at your question: When I practice shihonage the primary use of IP skills is at the beginning and the end. On ryote-tori omote, for example, my goal is that uke's balance is taken on first contact, so that by the time uke has a good grip I own their center. In the past I might have done this by leading them slightly so they overcommit and overbalance forward slightly; or I might have blended and moved off line omote so they again overcommitted and overbalanced; or I might have made myself soild and let them run into my grounded center, and taken advantage of their momentary reaction to move into the tenkan.

With the IP skills, my goal is more that they never reach or affect my center at all; instead their power coming into me is dissipated and throws them off balance. To me, it feels like I never have to work very hard because they never get a good handle on me. (On a good day.) Unlike blending or leading tho, I never lose my connection with their center, so I can control them--in particular when I move in for the tenkan, not only can they not stop me, they want to move out of my way.

One man's opinion, yada yada. Obviously I'm trying to learn what me teacher's trying to teach, but I make no claims that either he or Dan would approve the above message. Just my attempt to put words on the current state of my practice.
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Old 01-31-2012, 02:16 PM   #60
graham christian
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, if we agreed to cooperate through compliance to learn skill drills, this is useful.

If we have agreed to resist through noncompliance to learn validity (effectiveness and efficacy), this is also cooperative and useful.

"Wisdom is knowing the difference"
Yes, I agree.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:17 AM   #61
Alex Megann
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Kanetzuka Sensei also said to me he was a great friend of Noro, by the way his eyes lit up and the accompanying smile which went with the communication when I mentioned the name I could see he had great admiration for the man.

Thank you for the added information.

Regards.G.
Graham,

I get the impression that you are an intelligent, honourable and sincere man, and I would advise you to be careful what you write on the Web. I hope you are not trying to name-drop, after your brief conversation with Kanetsuka Sensei (do make sure you spell his name correctly if you mention him again, by the way!).

Based on what you have written and on the video clips you have posted on AikiWeb, your understanding of what aikido is and Kanetsuka Sensei's are on opposite sides of the galaxy.

Alex

Last edited by Alex Megann : 02-01-2012 at 01:21 AM.
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Old 02-01-2012, 02:10 AM   #62
graham christian
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Graham,

I get the impression that you are an intelligent, honourable and sincere man, and I would advise you to be careful what you write on the Web. I hope you are not trying to name-drop, after your brief conversation with Kanetsuka Sensei (do make sure you spell his name correctly if you mention him again, by the way!).

Based on what you have written and on the video clips you have posted on AikiWeb, your understanding of what aikido is and Kanetsuka Sensei's are on opposite sides of the galaxy.

Alex
Alex. What are you talking about??? If I was such a person who name dropped then I would name drop. What's your problem?

Subject:Noro. You will find my comments are all to do with showing what a great Aikido man he was. The subject is not me. This comment shows how Kanetsuka admires him.

Yes you noticed 'brief conversation' and so there is no add on or impression given by me of anything more thank you. When you meet these types of people you tend to treasure the memories and if I choose to share one I don't expect it to be seen as anything else thank you.

If you want my opinion on Kanetsuka Sensei then ask me. I think he and me would understand each other very well too thank you whether the way we do Aikido is similar or completely different because on our 'brief meeting' we had a 'brief' but very enthusiastic and warm conversation. I have met others who were cold and distant. So once again this is me saying how he left a great impression on me as a good human being.

After watching his class I am quite aware of his style and way and excellent it is too.

I could share more about that one class I was honoured to watch but maybe that will be seen as name dropping or some other crazy thing ha, ha. Wow........

Regards.G.
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Old 02-01-2012, 02:31 AM   #63
Alex Megann
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Alex. What are you talking about??? If I was such a person who name dropped then I would name drop. What's your problem?

Subject:Noro. You will find my comments are all to do with showing what a great Aikido man he was. The subject is not me. This comment shows how Kanetsuka admires him.

Yes you noticed 'brief conversation' and so there is no add on or impression given by me of anything more thank you. When you meet these types of people you tend to treasure the memories and if I choose to share one I don't expect it to be seen as anything else thank you.

If you want my opinion on Kanetsuka Sensei then ask me. I think he and me would understand each other very well too thank you whether the way we do Aikido is similar or completely different because on our 'brief meeting' we had a 'brief' but very enthusiastic and warm conversation. I have met others who were cold and distant. So once again this is me saying how he left a great impression on me as a good human being.

After watching his class I am quite aware of his style and way and excellent it is too.

I could share more about that one class I was honoured to watch but maybe that will be seen as name dropping or some other crazy thing ha, ha. Wow........

Regards.G.
Graham,

I apologise if I have misrepresented you or misunderstood your reasons for mentioning his name, and I acknowledge that his respect for Noro Sensei is of interest for this thread.

It's just that you have mentioned this meeting before in a previous thread:

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
When I went to visit Kanetzuka Sensei I have a nice funny story, bottom line being it was a demonstration by me to my accompanying friend of how to behave, Japanese style or rather Japanese budo style.
and I remember thinking at the time that that was a very odd thing to say. Perhaps you feel you could have expressed yourself more clearly, but the way I interpreted that sentence was that you took your friend there to show them what an authentic Japanese budo man you were, and that came across as a little arrogant. That does seem out of character for you from what I have read from you, but after following Kanetsuka Sensei for thirty years or more I couldn't help having my buttons pressed on that occasion. Now I have re-read the original post I accept that that sentence could be read in more than one way.

Regards,

Alex
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:49 AM   #64
graham christian
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Graham,

I apologise if I have misrepresented you or misunderstood your reasons for mentioning his name, and I acknowledge that his respect for Noro Sensei is of interest for this thread.

It's just that you have mentioned this meeting before in a previous thread:

and I remember thinking at the time that that was a very odd thing to say. Perhaps you feel you could have expressed yourself more clearly, but the way I interpreted that sentence was that you took your friend there to show them what an authentic Japanese budo man you were, and that came across as a little arrogant. That does seem out of character for you from what I have read from you, but after following Kanetsuka Sensei for thirty years or more I couldn't help having my buttons pressed on that occasion. Now I have re-read the original post I accept that that sentence could be read in more than one way.

Regards,

Alex
Thank you Alex. Sorry for any misunderstanding caused.

That past visit with regard to my accompanying friend and student was funny and you are right that the whole story was not expressed and so it could be taken in various ways.

We nicknamed this friend of mine Samurai Nick because he was always very intense and when he did a technique let's say his version of soft was different to ours. He loved the sword and the samurai way according to him. So there was a little game going on there where I was showing him that samurai was more to do with respect and nothing else. This always confused him as an answer and made me laugh.

Anyway, so it wasn't me taking him it was rather him taking me to visit and on reaching the venue couldn't resist mischievously giving him a bit of reality on respect.

It was at a church hall and the doors to the hall were wide open and training was in progress and chairs lined the sides of the hall. Very inviting. He walked straight in and sat down. I stayed at the entrance and when he looked over and beckoned to me I merely lowered my head in disapproval.

He came out and asked me whats wrong. I didn't answer his question but told him to do what I do and keep quiet. I knelt down seiza and told him to do the same by the other door and say nothing and don't even move.

Within ten seconds of doing so a student was instructed to come over to me and invite us in.

Once again he was confused and wondered what all that was about. Once again he got the same answer from me.

Now this type of thing, japanese budo etiquette, doesn't happen in my dojo and I don't ask for it to be. So in my place it seems anything but 'budo' but the point was that is no reason to disrespect anothers way. Plus him thinking he was very budo.

Just my little joke and my answer to what is budo? Respect.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:25 AM   #65
Cliff Judge
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Yes Cliff, that's basically what I am saying. Thanks for the reply.

Your view of what you find to do with 'free flowing thing' as you call it, the 'flowing into another technique or reversal of technique' I find interesting too. I have seen this a lot and see where you are coming from. Sometimes I feel the people doing it are missing the point somehow and too busy trying to look impressive.

The main point is though is that of itself it is a skill, it is a very good part of Aikido, it is a very hard part of Aikido to learn. Therefore done properly it is good.

The problem in my opinion can only be to do with when? or how? it is taught and personally I feel it is more to do with the when?.

Once again I see it as the 'everyone wants to do the impressive stuff' syndrome. Everyone wants to start at the top type attitude.

That's just me though.

Regards.G.
I may have made it sound worse than it is, by focusing on a negative aspect that I find myself embodying all too often.

It makes sense to teach students the basics, then introduce what I learned as jiyuwaza - uke gives a certain attack, nage responds with "one of the techniques we just worked on." Early on you just want to see them cycle through the techniques and not do the same thing twice. As they progress you want them to see them "allowing the proper technique to happen" without thinking about it. (Though that requires a high level of cooperation from uke, to provide slight nuances in the attack that would ellicit a certain technique from nage. This is not something I have a particularly good handle on and I don't think I've ever been shown how to do this.)

This kind of practice probably maps to some type of general educational technique. You drill the student with rote practice, then you have them integrate that knowledge by forcing them to choose an application. This requires a great deal of cooperation from uke, to the extent that if uke isn't actually a little bit collusive it may do more harm than good...when you are practicing regular technique, uke refusing to move if you are doing something wrong is helpful, but when you are practicing how to choose the proper technique, if uke refuses to move because the technique doesn't work, it will instead teach them that they chose the wrong technique... which is a slightly different matter.

I have no knowledge from my koryu training as to how this transition to "free flow" happens, because I haven't been training in koryu long enough to get there. The way we do it in my Aikido tradition is good because it gets you to integrate and synthesize your technical knowledge at an earlier phase. My observation is that this can lead to synthesizing and integrating crap knowledge (though at least it is your own knowledge). Some of you Iwama people might say you told me so, but I have seen it commented that earlier introduction to free application has proven beneficial in other martial art environments, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, for example.

As uke, this kind of training puts you in a situation where you don't know ahead of time how you might be thrown. I don't believe this is the case in koryu training for the first many years of training. Even the scariest-looking kata involving a hard throw a weapon an inch away from the eye becomes familiar with repetition. That's an advantage to more-cooperative training, I think. But the problem may simply be that in free application training, both partners must cooperate with each other, and things tend to skew towards nage.
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:11 AM   #66
Abasan
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

To learn while fighting is difficult. Not impossible but difficult.

Thus in essence, all training is cooperative. To what degree depends on the situation at hand and the objective.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 02-02-2012, 02:18 AM   #67
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
100% cooperative training is a disaster.
Always has been
Always will be
It will always fail.
It isn't budo
It isn't Martial arts
It has no place in a discussion of Budo or in Martial arts
It is something else.

What possible value is this to Budo?
What does it have to do with weapons?
What does it have to do to defending against a weapon?
If it is a budo why not get a swordsman to cut with a bokken like they use in real budo?
Since it is not an attack, since it is not therefore a defense against an attack.... what is it, on the earth?

Can someone explain to me how this relates to any budo practice that they recognize? How does this 100% cooperative training relate to any budo anyone, anywhere, recognizes as a Budo?

Budo is taught in degrees of cooperation that gradually increase in resistence. Otherwise you are not doing a budo. But that's okay too. Just don't confuse the two.
Dan
Dear Dan ,
It may well be that some people need to train with a degree of mutual co operation in order to ascertain /acquire skills.The degree of percentage may well be 100% or less .I think it would depend on the level of competence of the persons involved.However if the people continued throughout their
practice always being 100% cooperative and falling over at a drop of a hat that imo is a waste of time.[
Any senior person I think would go easy on a beginner , but as the beginner gets more experienced the level of training should get more intense.Cheers, Joe.
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Old 02-02-2012, 03:29 AM   #68
gates
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 193
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

Surely there is cooperative resistance and uncooperative resistance depending on the purpose of the practice. Be clear what that purpose is and then practice. Worrying about or judging the purpose or the practice of other people is not necessary.

Some people use BUDO for other purposes and practice in a way which contradicts it's commonly held definition. I hit a nail in with a spanner, for a moment the spanner was a hammer. So it depends if you describe the thing by it's form or it's function.

In this way anything can be used for just about, well anything, although I admit hammers don't make particularly good spanners.

Last edited by gates : 02-02-2012 at 03:33 AM.

Enjoy the journey
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Old 02-02-2012, 06:21 AM   #69
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

So far so good. I think we have come up with three terms so far: Cooperative, Collusive and Live. That all seems good to me.

I would add to that Increasing degree of difficulty as a better way of saying the rest and that's about it.

Nice one everyone.

Regards.G.
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