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Old 01-30-2012, 11:08 AM   #351
chillzATL
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Yours is the first deployment I've seen of that term. I prefer to use the term "resistant training" and many people say "live" training.

In yoseikan, we had shite randori, with set attacks and defenses, jiyu randori, with completely free attacks, and chikara randori, meaning free attacks and defenses, with uke giving continuous, strong follow up attacks if nage does not effect a decisive response in the first instant of the attack. If the attacker doesn't have to fall, he does not and continues the attack. This often went to the ground and newaza, frequently ending in a choke or strangulation. And remember that the yoseikan randori was full of sutemi waza, multiple opponents, bokken, padded pvc swords, knives, bo, etc. I never saw anyone use throwing stars or the claw hands, but most everything else.

It was cooperative, yet when two people were grappling on the ground, they were cooperating by giving the partner a tough opponent intent on choking him out or submitting him. It was basically the same as UFC but without bloodying each other up too much. We placed atemi but generally didn't strike each other heavily. And if you didn't throw someone who punched at you, he might follow up with a foot sweep and attempt to apply a joint lock of a wide variety.

What we cooperated in was a universal commitment to a powerful, meaningful attack allowing nage to develop first-instant throwing or joint-locking--not meaning that the joint is locked in the first instant, but the lead into the lock is established in the first instant, creating kuzushi and control for nage. It was intense and dangerous. And it took cooperative commitment to that danger, courage and calmness to move in it at high speed with lots of people and weapons, and commitment to the well-being of your partner, with the rule of never doing more than necessary to stop a violent person--but stopping him decisively.

Cooperative or uncooperative, whatever you would call it, that was real aikido and, as far as I'm concerned, the only meaningful progression to develop true technique. The internal power considerations are another matter.
David,

How much of this type of training do you think Mochizuki sensei brought over from his Kobukan days and how much do you think were things he changed in the name of improving what they did? I was hoping you would offer some insights in the "testing (skill) aikido" thread I started, but this was essentially what I was looking for.
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:58 AM   #352
phitruong
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I never saw anyone use throwing stars or the claw hands, but most everything else.
David
you guys don't use iron claws? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XM0NjiNGYo
your aikido stuffs must not be very good then

i think the problem with aikido (ok, one of the many problems) is the training paradigm of nage-uke setup. the nake/uke setup dictates a winner/loser scenario whether we want to admit it or not. it creates a subconscious idea of struggle and resolution. if you want to mess up the mind of aikido folks, ask nage to initiate the attack and finish uke off with an aikido technique. just that alone would messing up folks at most aikido dojos (what is the plural of dojo, is it doji or doja or dooh? )

so if you look at the taiji push-hand paradigm (taiji has its own problems too), there is no nage or uke. both person started out as equal and proceed to see which one can exploit the other person's weaknesses (mine are foods and women, not necessary in that order), then learn how to deal with the weaknesses, so both person ended up learning through the process.

it's the mindset that needs changing first. it should view at a continuous problem solving process.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:04 PM   #353
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
if you want to mess up the mind of aikido folks, ask nage to initiate the attack and finish uke off with an aikido technique.
This way is basic in Iwama style (and in Budo/Budo Renshuu, the books written by the founder).

Quote:
it's the mindset that needs changing first.
Seconded.

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Old 01-30-2012, 03:23 PM   #354
Janet Rosen
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i think the problem with aikido (ok, one of the many problems) is the training paradigm of nage-uke setup. the nake/uke setup dictates a winner/loser scenario whether we want to admit it or not. it creates a subconscious idea of struggle and resolution. if you want to mess up the mind of aikido folks, ask nage to initiate the attack and finish uke off with an aikido technique. just that alone would messing up folks at most aikido dojos....
so if you look at the taiji push-hand paradigm (taiji has its own problems too), there is no nage or uke. both person started out as equal and proceed to see which one can exploit the other person's weaknesses (mine are foods and women, not necessary in that order), then learn how to deal with the weaknesses, so both person ended up learning through the process..
I have every now and then done some push-hand style aikido w/ like minded folks - starting from a neutral and no defined uke/nage role, each looking for an opening/chance to take kuzushi. Requires people to be able to stay very focussed, relaxed and connected or it just devolves into a shoving match - which is a very good reality test in and of itself.

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Old 01-30-2012, 04:49 PM   #355
sakumeikan
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
you guys don't use iron claws? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XM0NjiNGYo
your aikido stuffs must not be very good then

i think the problem with aikido (ok, one of the many problems) is the training paradigm of nage-uke setup. the nake/uke setup dictates a winner/loser scenario whether we want to admit it or not. it creates a subconscious idea of struggle and resolution. if you want to mess up the mind of aikido folks, ask nage to initiate the attack and finish uke off with an aikido technique. just that alone would messing up folks at most aikido dojos (what is the plural of dojo, is it doji or doja or dooh? )

so if you look at the taiji push-hand paradigm (taiji has its own problems too), there is no nage or uke. both person started out as equal and proceed to see which one can exploit the other person's weaknesses (mine are foods and women, not necessary in that order), then learn how to deal with the weaknesses, so both person ended up learning through the process.

it's the mindset that needs changing first. it should view at a continuous problem solving process.
Dear Phi,
In shomen uchi ikkayo Tori should not wait for uke to make shomen. Rather than wait for uke to strike, Tori initiates the atemi [both to Ukes face and body ]then if Uke defends against this attack from Tori [by Ukes instinctive action of defending his /her face ] Tori cuts through strongly , taking ukes posture.This is irimi -entering into Ukes centre .Imo this is a case of Tori initiating both an attack
and finishing uke off with an aikido technique.A case of pro active action by Tori. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 01-30-2012, 05:07 PM   #356
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Phi,
In shomen uchi ikkayo Tori should not wait for uke to make shomen. Rather than wait for uke to strike, Tori initiates the atemi [both to Ukes face and body ]then if Uke defends against this attack from Tori [by Ukes instinctive action of defending his /her face ] Tori cuts through strongly , taking ukes posture.This is irimi -entering into Ukes centre .Imo this is a case of Tori initiating both an attack
and finishing uke off with an aikido technique.A case of pro active action by Tori. Cheers, Joe.
Sounds like standard Iwama and some old school styles

Greg
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Old 01-30-2012, 07:50 PM   #357
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Yours is the first deployment I've seen of that term. I prefer to use the term "resistant training" and many people say "live" training.

In yoseikan, we had shite randori, with set attacks and defenses, jiyu randori, with completely free attacks, and chikara randori, meaning free attacks and defenses, with uke giving continuous, strong follow up attacks if nage does not effect a decisive response in the first instant of the attack. If the attacker doesn't have to fall, he does not and continues the attack. This often went to the ground and newaza, frequently ending in a choke or strangulation. And remember that the yoseikan randori was full of sutemi waza, multiple opponents, bokken, padded pvc swords, knives, bo, etc. I never saw anyone use throwing stars or the claw hands, but most everything else.

It was cooperative, yet when two people were grappling on the ground, they were cooperating by giving the partner a tough opponent intent on choking him out or submitting him. It was basically the same as UFC but without bloodying each other up too much. We placed atemi but generally didn't strike each other heavily. And if you didn't throw someone who punched at you, he might follow up with a foot sweep and attempt to apply a joint lock of a wide variety.

What we cooperated in was a universal commitment to a powerful, meaningful attack allowing nage to develop first-instant throwing or joint-locking--not meaning that the joint is locked in the first instant, but the lead into the lock is established in the first instant, creating kuzushi and control for nage. It was intense and dangerous. And it took cooperative commitment to that danger, courage and calmness to move in it at high speed with lots of people and weapons, and commitment to the well-being of your partner, with the rule of never doing more than necessary to stop a violent person--but stopping him decisively.

Cooperative or uncooperative, whatever you would call it, that was real aikido and, as far as I'm concerned, the only meaningful progression to develop true technique. The internal power considerations are another matter.

I would suggest "kata-only" for those practices in which uke purposely moves in the way he is "supposed" to move, rather than how his reflexes advise him. In "kata-only" training, neither uke nor nage gives any resistance to the other or to the mutual performance of the kata that each technique is.

I can see value in that kind of practice maybe 5% of total time, with another 20% being actual kata training, such as Mochizuki's tai sabaki no kata or his hyori no kata; or Tomiki's "walking" kata and others, such as junana no kata. Another 25% being intense kihon waza training and 50% being randori. The randori levels would increase with the student's experience, with shite or designated randori early on, jiyu randori nearing black belt and chikara randori after that, at which time randori should be liberally peppered with sutemi waza. Under Mochizuki, we regularly did hour-long sutemi-only chikara randori.

So that type of training would fall under what I prefer to term "live" practice.

I would recommend some "kata-only" training from the beginning, with more and more "resistance" from uke when nage's technique leaves that possibility.

Two major points:

In "kata-only" practice, neither uke nor nage resists the other's efforts.

In "live" practice, uke may resist with strength, speed and technique if he can find an opportunity; but nage's training is to move in such a way that he never resists uke in any way, so that uke can find no strength to resist and all his efforts fall into nothing.

Again, this does not address questions of internal power development or use. This is just the omote form of technical aikido training. I do believe that IP/Aiki would make it much easier to bear training of that kind while making every technique a living thing, rather than a form (kata).

But for training solid aikido technique and application, the "cooperation" of uke and nage must be a commitment to development of instant aikido technical effectiveness against a strong and "live" uke, committed to an effective attack.

Cheers.

David
I like this post and just want to add a couple of points from my experience. Tomiki was pretty clear about the balance between solo drills, paired drills, kata training and different levels of randori. In the last case there are three distinct levels of resistance none by the way considered competition. Competition (points being awarded) was done on occasion just like Judo. He felt that about 10% randori training was correct for most students. Interestingly in the training of the young guns for competition (university students) there is never less kata training or drills just more randori and that was spread out through the different levels of resistance.

Tomiki in fact has been quoted as saying that the amount of randori training in Judo vs. drills and kata would not work for Aikido hence the 10%.

By the way in Tomiki's system there are a few solo drills that are designed to work on IP but I have to admit there is not a whole lot of emphasis on it and more to the point not every student understands the purpose and trains to take advantage of it.

I think what David is getting at is there are different mechanisms out there to bring peoples Aikido alive or a Tomiki liked to say paint the eye of the paper tiger.

Last edited by PeterR : 01-30-2012 at 07:53 PM.

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Old 01-31-2012, 02:01 PM   #358
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I have every now and then done some push-hand style aikido w/ like minded folks - starting from a neutral and no defined uke/nage role, each looking for an opening/chance to take kuzushi. Requires people to be able to stay very focussed, relaxed and connected or it just devolves into a shoving match - which is a very good reality test in and of itself.
I adored doing hand-randori when I was training Tomiki. Both sides touch hands, one palm up, one down, and trade simple attacks. Point being to stick to your opponent and use the energy of the attack to pin, choke, or throw. It could turn into a shoving match with lower-level guys but with good people--my sensei for one--using any muscle at all got you into a world of hurt every time.
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:22 PM   #359
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Now that was an interesting post. A pleasure to read.
Thanks. That's where I get my ideas on aikido.

And I wasn't even their in the thick part. Fifteen or twenty years earlier, when Mochizuki was in his sixties, the dojo would have been three times as dense and Sensei would have been much more actively involved in all that. Patrick Auge was uchi deshi in those days and I learned from him over some years before I lived there. Our line of yoseikan comes through a US Army base in Alabama via a Japanese military officer, so the early yoseikan classes were among military men. My line came down through a civilian instructor but we had access to the old military notes and certain philosophies about human conflict and the place and application of aikido.

It's completely decisive and as harsh as it may sound, I came from kyokushin karate (from 1972) and that aikido really was revolutionary to me. As violent as it may seem to you, I had no trouble recognizing a deep and pure spiritual difference in the aikido approach. And when I went to other dojos, I seldom found that same kind of purity in the practice. And the more "spiritual" the attitude of the teacher, the less physical (and the less strategic) the training, the weaker the aikido was. Yet the more people would believe what they said about aikido because they were more "spiritual" than I.

Now think about Henry Ellis, direct student of two incredible martial artists--Kenshiro Abbe and Tadashi Abe ten years after the War with Japan! That blistering training was fresh out of the oven and Abbe and Abe led Henry and the other UK students through it for years. So that stuff was even far purer than what I learned and it was in the very dawn of aikido in the UK. I doubt Abbe or Abe ever made them wonder whether they were supposed to throw.

Anyway, thanks for reading.

David

Last edited by akiy : 01-31-2012 at 10:28 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag

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Old 01-31-2012, 10:44 PM   #360
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
David,

How much of this type of training do you think Mochizuki sensei brought over from his Kobukan days and how much do you think were things he changed in the name of improving what they did? I was hoping you would offer some insights in the "testing (skill) aikido" thread I started, but this was essentially what I was looking for.
I think the general spirit was close to the kobukan, though Kobukan may have been more competetive in the early 30s, with everyone outdoing each other for the Emperor as well as O Sensei. I get the feeling that the general pace and context of the training was similar, especially based on all the videos I've ever seen of the training. And I think that up to black belt, for all the stand-up aikido techniques, the randori looks about the same. But he adds the ground grappling, chokes and sutemi waza. I think Mochizuki was conducting his best version of the training environment of budo he had been immersed in all his life. His dojo personified the qualities you see in every Japanese traditonal art including judo, kendo, kenjutsu, and aikido, as well as the arts like kyudo, naginatado and kobudo, but also things like tea and dance and shodo. I don't mean that he taught all that, but there is a distinct commonality among those things and how they're practiced, and his dojo was steeped in that Japaneseness.

As far as the techniques he was teaching, of course, there's his addition of sutemi and newaza ground fighting, but he also may have deleted a lot of stuff that was in daito ryu. All of our techniques looked like aikido, as Stan Pranin says, like Ueshiba showed in 1935, consistent with Iwama and consistent to me, for the most part, with Yoshinkan. So who took out all the intricate, twisty no-hands pins you see in daito ryu videos? The throws are all pretty much seen in aikido, but not those weird things where uke is bent 90 degrees to the side, both of his arms behind his back and locked in place only by uke's own inability to move. Mochizuki was such a collector of jujutsu technique, I'm thinking he would have kept those techniques if he had learned them. It seems to me that Ueshiba must have deleted those techniques and did not include them in the DR license scroll he gave Mochizuki. Otherwise, Mochizuki would surely have kept such strange techniques.

Unless.

Unless he analyzed the strange pins and found them unrealistic or unreliable. He wouldn't have collected a phony technique.

But look at the 1935 Asahi movie and I don't remember Ueshiba showing those lock-ups himself, like you see Kondo showing sometimes.

I've just wondered about that sometimes.

So did Ueshiba delete that stuff or did Mochizuki?

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 01-31-2012, 10:48 PM   #361
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
... aikido dojos (what is the plural of dojo, is it doji or doja or dooh? )
D'oh!

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
...so if you look at the taiji push-hand paradigm (taiji has its own problems too), there is no nage or uke. both person started out as equal and proceed to see which one can exploit the other person's weaknesses (mine are foods and women, not necessary in that order), then learn how to deal with the weaknesses, so both person ended up learning through the process.
And that's judo, exactly. The difference is that taiji develops the internal powers even when you don't know it's doing it. So the technique application is a good bit different from most modern aikido and a lot of modern taiji as well.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
it's the mindset that needs changing first. it should view at a continuous problem solving process.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:00 AM   #362
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Thanks. That's where I get my ideas on aikido.

And I wasn't even their in the thick part. Fifteen or twenty years earlier, when Mochizuki was in his sixties, the dojo would have been three times as dense and Sensei would have been much more actively involved in all that. Patrick Auge was uchi deshi in those days and I learned from him over some years before I lived there. Our line of yoseikan comes through a US Army base in Alabama via a Japanese military officer, so the early yoseikan classes were among military men. My line came down through a civilian instructor but we had access to the old military notes and certain philosophies about human conflict and the place and application of aikido.

It's completely decisive and as harsh as it may sound, I came from kyokushin karate (from 1972) and that aikido really was revolutionary to me. As violent as it may seem to you, I had no trouble recognizing a deep and pure spiritual difference in the aikido approach. And when I went to other dojos, I seldom found that same kind of purity in the practice. And the more "spiritual" the attitude of the teacher, the less physical (and the less strategic) the training, the weaker the aikido was. Yet the more people would believe what they said about aikido because they were more "spiritual" than I.

Now think about Henry Ellis, direct student of two incredible martial artists--Kenshiro Abbe and Tadashi Abe ten years after the War with Japan! That blistering training was fresh out of the oven and Abbe and Abe led Henry and the other UK students through it for years. So that stuff was even far purer than what I learned and it was in the very dawn of aikido in the UK. I doubt Abbe or Abe ever made them wonder whether they were supposed to throw.

Anyway, thanks for reading.

David
Thanks for another well appreciated response.

By reading your brief outline on your 'history' it fits with your views, excellent. By how you explain your experiences briefly with Aikido places that emphasized spiritual I totally get that too. In fact there is nothing in what you say in each paragraph that I disagree with.

I would say every 'spiritual' Aikido I have experienced I myself and my friend for that matter always thought it was too 'airy fairy' and unreal. Now that means either I didn't visit enough places or a lot had missed the point in my way of thinking. On the other side of the coin we found many others rough and tumbling and 'useless' from our opinion and the same reasons above may also be the case.

However, to understand my 'history' you would first have to understand my training.

I entered Aikido not knowing there was a big political divide going on. My teacher had left the 'organization' and set up privately. His way was very dynamic as shown by the old video of Noro shown by Carsten on the spiritual thread. I therefore had met someone who did this very dynamic and stern art yet at the same time very spiritual.

I found that in his opinion he left because too many would not do the meditation or see the relevence of Ki and that it takes discipline to get those realities. So he was also influenced by Tohei.

Thus I learned a very important lesson throughout that whole period under his influence. One word, discipline. His answer to virtually everything.

So as time went on and I met many who did stern Aikido and yet couldn't do techniques with me and needed my corrections to do so I put it down to they hadn't learned that discipline.

On the other hand when I met or trained with people who did Ki or spiritual Aikido yet it didn't work with me either I had the same conclusion, not enough discipline.

Thus I questioned everything and this led me to understand what discipline is. Just look at the word disciple. Following and sticking to principles. Not data, not try this and try that, not dip your toe in here and there and everywhere and then you will have experience and understand. No, discipline.

From that point on I decided that's how I would teach, emphasis on discipline meaning drills. Drills, drills and drills.

Therefore those who want to fly about dramatically without enough reality on the principles, go elsewhere. Those who want dream loving thoughts not willing to know theres great discipline there then go elsewhere.

Therefore my way is such, different.

Although the principles I use you may not be aware of I will give you an example using Toheis for in the early days it was exclusively those which I used from the view of discipline.

Basic techniques and attacks etc. learned. Then how they are all dependent on the principles. Thus we would do a technique from one principle. Iriminage: Do it from static using the principle of 'one point' If it works then the person holds harder, makes it harder, and on and on. Whenever it doesn't work it's due to no one point and no other reason, none allowed.

Then move to moving attacks etc but if any time doesn't work equals no one point, no other reason allowed. If you get a head ache or are sick or plain worn out it equals no one point, no discipline.

There is no 'this person said or that person said or but my tai sabaki wasn't right or but you moved, no excuses. There is no 'ah that was a good workout' there is only following that one principle and thus getting more and more reality on it. Thus my way is nothing to do with speed or 'power' but only to do with principle and discipline.

If someone runs at you fast, same principle. If someone uses great power, same principle, no excuses. Whatever the other person does doesn't matter, same principle no excuse.

This if inspected shows something quite zen. It shows that if you keep one point then there will be no problem doing any technique any time anywhere with anyone. Yet on further inspection it also says that there are more than one principle and they all work together.

Thus other principles are used 'on their own' in the same manner. Weight underside: All techniques done from that one principle. Extending Ki: All techniques done from that one principle. Etc.

Another I use is Koshi. Tried to explain that once on here, wasn't too successful. However, all techniques done from that.

Now on to another you will recognise. Ma-ai. All techniques done from that as a principle.

Add to these type of things spiritual principles and you can get the picture, or not, of my particular methods.

As an example of a spiritual principle I use I give a very simple standard english worded principle for example: Be with.

So a person does a technique or rather tries to and it doesn't work. That's because they are not being with. (when using this principle) No excuses. The person realizes where they 'went against' or whatever but as a discipline it doesn't matter, be with and that's all. It's actually a principle of love yet it's a discipline. It's a hard discipline. It means there is no against. It means it can't work. It means many logical things. Yet in the end it means itself and it works.

I would rather one student practicing very slowly one principle for twenty years rather than one thousand doing otherwise.

I'm not even interested in one million people telling me I must go out and prove this or that. I am only interested in one person who wants to learn how to apply a principle I use and teach.

So that explanation has either served to give you a clearer picture of me or else it's confused you. Hopefully the former.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-01-2012, 05:30 AM   #363
Mark Freeman
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Now think about Henry Ellis, direct student of two incredible martial artists--Kenshiro Abbe and Tadashi Abe ten years after the War with Japan! That blistering training was fresh out of the oven and Abbe and Abe led Henry and the other UK students through it for years. So that stuff was even far purer than what I learned and it was in the very dawn of aikido in the UK. I doubt Abbe or Abe ever made them wonder whether they were supposed to throw.
Hi David,

Although Kenshiro Abbe started teaching in the 10 years after the war, Henry Ellis was not there at that time, I believe he was introduced to aikido at the Hut dojo around '57. Tadashi may well have been brought over to the UK to teach the students there, but it would have been later. I will speak to my teacher about the dates. In all my years of listening to his experiences of those days, he has not given an account of Tadashi Abe's influence. He does cite Noro and Nakazono, Tamera and Tada as being influential to the training at that time. I will ask him about Tadashi Abe when I see him next.

Not sure why you say that that stuff was 'purer' than your your own experience?

Kenshiro Abbe was primarily a Judo man, his aikido was very positive and direct. He did have his own spiritual philosophy/theory (kyu shin do), which underpinned his practice. As far as I am aware, when he returned to Japan, he was disappointed that many of the students in the UK just didn't 'get it'.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I entered Aikido not knowing there was a big political divide going on. My teacher had left the 'organization' and set up privately. His way was very dynamic as shown by the old video of Noro shown by Carsten on the spiritual thread. I therefore had met someone who did this very dynamic and stern art yet at the same time very spiritual.

I found that in his opinion he left because too many would not do the meditation or see the relevence of Ki and that it takes discipline to get those realities. So he was also influenced by Tohei.
It seems that quite a few were not that interested in the Ki aspect that Tohei introduced via his own practice method. It seems that many felt that they had all they needed from their practice so far. So when they were being asked to change their approach, they were unable/unwilling to.

I have always been intrigued by this time in the UK aikido history. My own teacher (Williams) was recognised as being the best UK produced aikidoka. When he found a teacher (Tohei) that had something that he thought was beneficial, it meant changing his whole approach to training and teaching. He was willing to do what it took to make the adjustment and take the time to re-examine his own thinking. Much to the benefit of his own aikido. It seems not many of his students were able to stay with him through this change.

Maybe it was lack of discipline, but I doubt that, as the likes of Henry Ellis and his fellows, were put through increadibly robust training, they had to be disciplined to survive, so my guess is that it was for other, more personal reasons.

The UK aikido history is pretty well documented courtesy of Henry Ellis' hard work and commitment to keeping it so. The politics in the late 60's early 70's were pretty messy, and have since led to a myriad of different organisations sprigning up all over the country. The BAB (British Aikido Board) is the governing body for 'all' aikido in the UK. The KFGB under K Williams is completely outside of their influence (unsurprisingly so having read some of the stuff on the Ellis website).

Respect to all who go before us, but we agree, great teachers do not automatically mean great students. I think that covers all of us

regards,

Mark
p.s. apologies for the thread drift

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Old 02-01-2012, 07:02 AM   #364
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi David,

Although Kenshiro Abbe started teaching in the 10 years after the war, Henry Ellis was not there at that time, I believe he was introduced to aikido at the Hut dojo around '57. Tadashi may well have been brought over to the UK to teach the students there, but it would have been later. I will speak to my teacher about the dates. In all my years of listening to his experiences of those days, he has not given an account of Tadashi Abe's influence. He does cite Noro and Nakazono, Tamera and Tada as being influential to the training at that time. I will ask him about Tadashi Abe when I see him next.

Not sure why you say that that stuff was 'purer' than your your own experience?

Kenshiro Abbe was primarily a Judo man, his aikido was very positive and direct. He did have his own spiritual philosophy/theory (kyu shin do), which underpinned his practice. As far as I am aware, when he returned to Japan, he was disappointed that many of the students in the UK just didn't 'get it'.

It seems that quite a few were not that interested in the Ki aspect that Tohei introduced via his own practice method. It seems that many felt that they had all they needed from their practice so far. So when they were being asked to change their approach, they were unable/unwilling to.

I have always been intrigued by this time in the UK aikido history. My own teacher (Williams) was recognised as being the best UK produced aikidoka. When he found a teacher (Tohei) that had something that he thought was beneficial, it meant changing his whole approach to training and teaching. He was willing to do what it took to make the adjustment and take the time to re-examine his own thinking. Much to the benefit of his own aikido. It seems not many of his students were able to stay with him through this change.

Maybe it was lack of discipline, but I doubt that, as the likes of Henry Ellis and his fellows, were put through increadibly robust training, they had to be disciplined to survive, so my guess is that it was for other, more personal reasons.

The UK aikido history is pretty well documented courtesy of Henry Ellis' hard work and commitment to keeping it so. The politics in the late 60's early 70's were pretty messy, and have since led to a myriad of different organisations sprigning up all over the country. The BAB (British Aikido Board) is the governing body for 'all' aikido in the UK. The KFGB under K Williams is completely outside of their influence (unsurprisingly so having read some of the stuff on the Ellis website).

Respect to all who go before us, but we agree, great teachers do not automatically mean great students. I think that covers all of us

regards,

Mark
p.s. apologies for the thread drift
Hi Mark. The ways of anyone else who does the 'resistive' Aikido or whatever the right term is I do not say that means lack of discipline. Someone who comes out of that training of that time and in turn is respected as a teacher is obviously very disciplined and able. As I have said before I respect and admire all forms of Aikido.

In my experience with any person from say a 'resistive' style of Aikido who get's stuck with doing technique on me it doesn't equal their way is wrong to me. It equals this particular person is lacking discipline somewhere. That's my thought process and it in no way equals they are wrong. It doesn't reflect on their teacher or their way either.

There are only two things I have to consider, are they trying to do it my way, according to my principles, or are they trying to do it their way, according to their teachers principles.

If the latter then I would ask them questions and listen. I will get to see how they are applying what their teacher tells them. Most times I usually see how they are thus not doing what their teacher says. I then correct, get them to focus on an aspect they appear to be missing and then they have successs. They usually brighten up and say'that's what he means' or 'that's how he does it'.

Inside I usually feel but don't say that their teacher has probably told them that a thousand times but they are not disciplining themselves enough on that outness.

All I care about in these circumstances is that they go back and get better at their Aikido and the answer if they want to follow that way is not by coming to learn my way but by being more disciplined with the principles of theirs.

I like seeing everyone good at their way. Enjoying their way.

I agree it doesn't mean all great teachers have great students and also that all great students don't necessarily have great teachers. But I do believe all great teachers and all great students have a certain discipline that others haven't yet adhered to or reached. That includes me also.

So rather than being oppressed or undermined may all sentient beings be free, (and disciplined ha, ha.)

Regards.G.
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Old 02-01-2012, 07:39 AM   #365
Mark Freeman
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
In my experience with any person from say a 'resistive' style of Aikido who get's stuck with doing technique on me it doesn't equal their way is wrong to me. It equals this particular person is lacking discipline somewhere. That's my thought process and it in no way equals they are wrong. It doesn't reflect on their teacher or their way either.

There are only two things I have to consider, are they trying to do it my way, according to my principles, or are they trying to do it their way, according to their teachers principles.
Hi Graham,

on my recent holiday in India, I came across just this scenario, and I must say that you have a more benevolent view than me (maybe you are right to have?). When the teacher there ( a very lovely and generous gentleman ) attempted to apply nikkyo to my colleague and myself, it had absolutely no effect. It was pretty clear that their way of doing it, must only be effective against an unco-ordinated uke (they managed to get the technique to work on each other). In my way of thinking, their right way, was pretty wrong to me. When I showed them how effective they could be if they if they used relaxation (particularly of the shoulders), extension and delivering everything from centre. They all agreed that they would try and incorporate this into all of their future training. Maybe their teacher (who had not long passed away) had it and they hadn't got it, maybe he didn't, I'll never know.

They were all good people practicing there and were all sincere about what they were doing. They enjoyed their practice immensely. So from that point of view it is all good. However, although it may be wrong to label what they were doing as 'wrong'. It was only 'right' within certain limited parameters.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:29 AM   #366
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Graham,

on my recent holiday in India, I came across just this scenario, and I must say that you have a more benevolent view than me (maybe you are right to have?). When the teacher there ( a very lovely and generous gentleman ) attempted to apply nikkyo to my colleague and myself, it had absolutely no effect. It was pretty clear that their way of doing it, must only be effective against an unco-ordinated uke (they managed to get the technique to work on each other). In my way of thinking, their right way, was pretty wrong to me. When I showed them how effective they could be if they if they used relaxation (particularly of the shoulders), extension and delivering everything from centre. They all agreed that they would try and incorporate this into all of their future training. Maybe their teacher (who had not long passed away) had it and they hadn't got it, maybe he didn't, I'll never know.

They were all good people practicing there and were all sincere about what they were doing. They enjoyed their practice immensely. So from that point of view it is all good. However, although it may be wrong to label what they were doing as 'wrong'. It was only 'right' within certain limited parameters.

regards,

Mark
Sounds good to me. That would equate with the first option I mentioned ie: they want (or need) to learn how I do it.

As you say, it's all good.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-01-2012, 05:19 PM   #367
gates
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post

They were all good people practicing there and were all sincere about what they were doing. They enjoyed their practice immensely. So from that point of view it is all good. However, although it may be wrong to label what they were doing as 'wrong'. It was only 'right' within certain limited parameters.

regards,

Mark
Hi Mark
I agree with you totally... But think right and wrong are terms which have limited use when describing aikido. Either it serves the purpose or it doesn't, martially either it works or it doesnt, with shades of grey, as indicated in your post using slightly different language. What has always interested me is relating those things that make it work martially with non physical applications.
Keith

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Old 02-02-2012, 07:29 AM   #368
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
David -

I'm not sure where you got the impression that Mary or I "reject testing" in our practice. ...(Maybe you are referring to this statement: "If testing and competing with others is important to you"). ...
Thay may well have been it. Because, if you look back, the post she was referring to did not mention competition; only testing. But Mary replied "testing and competing with others." So it seemed she was automatically associating "testing" with "competing," and I see no need for that association.

Best to y'all.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 02-02-2012, 07:44 AM   #369
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
In yoseikan, we had shite randori, with set attacks and defenses, jiyu randori, with completely free attacks, and chikara randori, meaning free attacks and defenses, with uke giving continuous, strong follow up attacks if nage does not effect a decisive response in the first instant of the attack. If the attacker doesn't have to fall, he does not and continues the attack. This often went to the ground and newaza, frequently ending in a choke or strangulation. And remember that the yoseikan randori was full of sutemi waza, multiple opponents, bokken, padded pvc swords, knives, bo, etc. I never saw anyone use throwing stars or the claw hands, but most everything else.

It was cooperative, yet when two people were grappling on the ground, they were cooperating by giving the partner a tough opponent intent on choking him out or submitting him. It was basically the same as UFC but without bloodying each other up too much. We placed atemi but generally didn't strike each other heavily. And if you didn't throw someone who punched at you, he might follow up with a foot sweep and attempt to apply a joint lock of a wide variety.

What we cooperated in was a universal commitment to a powerful, meaningful attack allowing nage to develop first-instant throwing or joint-locking--not meaning that the joint is locked in the first instant, but the lead into the lock is established in the first instant, creating kuzushi and control for nage. It was intense and dangerous. And it took cooperative commitment to that danger, courage and calmness to move in it at high speed with lots of people and weapons, and commitment to the well-being of your partner, with the rule of never doing more than necessary to stop a violent person--but stopping him decisively.

Cooperative or uncooperative, whatever you would call it, that was real aikido and, as far as I'm concerned, the only meaningful progression to develop true technique. The internal power considerations are another matter.
Here is a very recent set of clips from the old yoseikan budo hombu. It's hard to believe I'm looking at a place that was my literal home for 21 months of the five years I trained there. I'm not sure what the place is called now, but these clips show two of the guys I used to get out there with all the time: Terumi Washizu and Kenmotsu Sensei. Washizu was senior and Kenmotsu was always right behing him and Tezuka, who recently passed away. Here, they are training in gyokushin ryu aikido, which Washizu created based on his receipt of menkyo kaiden from Minoru Mochizuki, which included "yoseikan gyokushin ryu jujutsu." In short, this is pretty much what we used to do and you can see white belts to low-level black belt, to mid-level black belt to two guys who were 5th and 6th dan 20 years ago and who both got menkyo from Minoru Mochizuki. Washizu wears the red/white belt and Kenmotsu is the bald fellow with the plain white dogi and black belt. I think they're both about 70 years old, now--mid-to-late 60s for sure. They're looking pretty good.

There are a lot of clips on this page and it takes them a bit to load, so be patient. You can see a variety of people each doing a round of free randori. You can see the level and method of resistance when techniques don't work, occasional follow-up attacks if the aikido does not work in the first instant.

I don't know anything about weapons in gyokushin ryu aikido, but both Washizu and Kenmotsu are very good with the sword, having trained directly with Minoru Mochizuki and Kyoichi Murai in Mochizuki's version of TSKSR for many years (decades). So I'm pretty sure they must do that practice sometimes, even if not part of the gyokushin aikido classes. I'm pretty sure they also have rather more intense workouts than what is shown here.

http://www.geocities.jp/wyttksaiki/douga/douga01.html

Looks like a very good training atmosphere. Not overly formal, but very solid and dignified.

Glad to see it.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:32 AM   #370
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Although Kenshiro Abbe started teaching in the 10 years after the war, Henry Ellis was not there at that time, I believe he was introduced to aikido at the Hut dojo around '57. Tadashi may well have been brought over to the UK to teach the students there, but it would have been later. I will speak to my teacher about the dates. In all my years of listening to his experiences of those days, he has not given an account of Tadashi Abe's influence. He does cite Noro and Nakazono, Tamera and Tada as being influential to the training at that time. I will ask him about Tadashi Abe when I see him next.
I count the war's end in 8/1945 and I think I recall Henry's saying he started at the Hut in 1955, which was the year I was born. I'm not sure about any details, but he does talk about training with both of them. And I know that was some incredible atmosphere.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Not sure why you say that that stuff was 'purer' than your your own experience?
Partly the times. Everyone was less guarded in those days, socially, and more directly real. Also, this was before everyone's little cousin was a black belt and the folks at the Hut had not come up with all kinds of baloney and bad examples in martial arts before they started training. They were fit young men who were introduced directly to the real stuff and they got nothing but the real stuff the whole time. By 1972, when I started martial arts, black belts were still scarce, but we had been exposed to Bruce Lee in The Green Hornet (a TV show here) and the David Carradine TV show, Kung Fu started up about the time I started karate. Also, I started with a guy who was not who he said he was before I started training with a direct student of Mas Oyama in kyokushin karate. I got my first idea about aikido from a George Leonard article in East/West Journal, called "Aikido and the Mind of the West".
So my early ideas did not come from Kennshiro Abbe or Mochizuki, either. And the kyokushin was good, hard karate, but there were elements in those days that it could have done without.

I did get a lot of good instruction, but it was heavily filtered by various people for various reasons and anyway, they could not recreate the mental attitude and the real presence of a dojo like the yoseikan. And when I finally got to live in the dojo with Mochizuki, I was too old for peak learning and he was too old for peak teaching. And while technically very strong, the practice at the dojo was past its greatest days.

Still, I really like what I see of Washizu Sensei's current teaching, so I have hope for the future of Mochizuki Sensei's peculiar art. But I do think that the old Hut training was a much deeper and purer budo than anything you're likely to find today outside certain places in Japan. And even there....in most places, it's not what it used to be.

Anyway, neither am I, but the IS/Aiki discussion and the efforts I've made since hearing of it have done more for me than anything since I left the yoseikan in 1995.

Best to all.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:35 AM   #371
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
... My teacher had left the 'organization' and set up privately. His way was very dynamic as shown by the old video of Noro shown by Carsten on the spiritual thread. I therefore had met someone who did this very dynamic and stern art yet at the same time very spiritual.
Well, just to give us some understanding of where you're actually rooted, could you tell us your teacher's name and who he ws with before he taught you?

Otherwise, an interesting approach you describe.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-02-2012, 09:54 AM   #372
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, just to give us some understanding of where you're actually rooted, could you tell us your teacher's name and who he ws with before he taught you?

Otherwise, an interesting approach you describe.

Thanks.

David
Hi, thought I had, Noro, Tohei. His name is Mike Muspratt. Not much written about him on the net though. I managed to find one reference to him in one teachers book and one picture of him at Tohei summer camp 1976 I think, 70s anyway.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:12 PM   #373
Gary David
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
From that point on I decided that's how I would teach, emphasis on discipline meaning drills. Drills, drills and drills.
Graham
It would be helpful in understanding your approach to training if you could provide some description of the drills you use and how they are presented to your students. I have accepted that relaxing is at this point the most important to keeping frame, structure and the whole on the right path.....how to you instill this in your students and how do you build on it?
Thanks

Gary
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Old 02-03-2012, 06:29 PM   #374
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
It would be helpful in understanding your approach to training if you could provide some description of the drills you use and how they are presented to your students. I have accepted that relaxing is at this point the most important to keeping frame, structure and the whole on the right path.....how to you instill this in your students and how do you build on it?
Thanks

Gary
Hi Gary, good question. For the answers I would have to start a new thread as it's way off this thread topic. I could say it starts with aiki taiso exercises but then again I explain what they are about, ie: not just physical exercises. Mmmm. To explain we need a different thread.

Regards.G.
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