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Old 01-30-2012, 07:44 AM   #326
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
Agree. FWIW, for me non-cooperative training is one wherein uke closes an opening once it has been found out so that the center can't be taken. It is the burden of nage to continually look for openings in uke so that a technique can be done. Similar to uke, it is his job to continually close his openings and find weaknesses in nage for a possible reversal.

I'm thinking randori and jiyu waza still fall into cooperative training since nage performs techniques, sure, but is it based on uke's openings? Does nage understand this? You dont know if the technique is valid or not. And uke doesn't put much effort in closing those openings such that nage will have a hard time performing a technique.
Hi Mario.
Admired your sense of humour and allowance with the thread drift. Thank you.

I wish it was possible to have a clear definition for this strange colloquial term called uncooperative training. I've never seen any and never will. Yet another term I find of no use myself.

Better terminology needed methinks.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-30-2012, 08:31 AM   #327
Garth
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Kristoffer Sandven wrote: View Post
There are more ways to manifest power than to hurt someone (physically, that is)
Alone that is a true statement, but in context......
Oh I am sorry I thought this was a MARTIAL arts forum
Martial -
of, suitable for, or associated with war or the armed forces: martial music.

3.
characteristic of or befitting a warrior

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 01-30-2012, 08:44 AM   #328
renshin
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
Alone that is a true statement, but in context......
Oh I am sorry I thought this was a MARTIAL arts forum
Martial -
of, suitable for, or associated with war or the armed forces: martial music.

3.
characteristic of or befitting a warrior
LOL - what I mean is that there are ways of getting the guy on the other end to understand you have beaten him, without actually beating him up

Yours friendly,

K. Sandven

Blog: My Life In Budo

Aikido Tenshinshoden Katori Shinto Ryu Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai
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Old 01-30-2012, 08:50 AM   #329
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

You can use psychological warfare too... and hurt opponent's mind.

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Old 01-30-2012, 09:14 AM   #330
gregstec
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
Yes it is a good name It actually means vigilant (since Japanese have a problem with R I think or maybe Tozando sold me a bill of goods)and is inscribed that way on my hakama
So I will be keeping an EYE on you Greg
Don't waste your time - nothing really to watch since I don't move much - it is all internal

Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
I just forgot to leave the military comment in thats all, after I reread where you said "Cooperative"
So I understand the military is not mostly cooperative training, but you must admit that there is some, used in conjunction with confidence building. Used to be total immersion in the sink or swim atmosphere and I am sure still that way for special service otherwise anyone would be special forces. And I am sure some wound up on permanent KP duty. Combat has certain necessities to it.
But after the tearing down, there is a buildup process as the confidence increases.
I am not saying as Dan likes to say, that drill instructors start walking around saying "oh you are great" when you "actually suck", but you are increasingly allowed to succed as your skills and confidence grows, Otherwise the all volunteer army would have too high a washout rate. No???
Cowardice (Flee /Self/Fear preservation drive whatever you want to call it) can be weeded out if need be and with a combo of techniques mentioned here, over ridden(rewired)
I can at 47 remember vividly the first time I got my clock cleaned by an older kid.
I was taking a purely romantic heroic stance against an older street tuff based on principle (somewhere between 8-10 years old) Completely unaware of the circumstance( and I was always big for my age size wise)(not mentally though). I must tell you that prudence about the circumstance entered into my thought process after that time. Not that I have run away from fights or sought them out afterwoods, just slower to anger that all. Fighting or Fleeing , all though I cant remember doing the other literally, are worlds that some people can and do switch back and forth between.
As far as the military, I think most going in today are in the 'fight' type group - I just don't see the 'flee' type being drawn in that direction. However, back when I first went in, there were a good number of draftees that really did not want to be there.

Earlier I said I think training might be able to help change you from a flee to fight type, but after some thought, I am not all that sure about that . Of course, training can help you with your conditioned response to be better able to fight back, but I still think if you are a flee type person, you are going to freeze initially and all that conditioned training will just not manifest itself in time to be effective.

Maybe we should change 'fight' or 'flee' to 'react' or 'freeze'. It is important to remember that we are talking about a conditioned reflex going on in a real incident, there is absolutely no time to think about anything, those that have been there know what I am talking about. So with that in mind, even the best trained individual will be at a disadvantage if they are a freeze type person when startled - of course, if pushed far enough, I believe the survival instinct will kick in with everyone, but that just may be too late for some. It is also important to remember I am talking about attacks that you do not see coming - A well trained individual will have more awareness than most, so that gives them an advantage in assessing threats and being somewhat prepared for it - in these cases, you are not startled and will have some time to set up some type of initial defense.

As I mentioned before, the real test is in a real situation; anything short of that is pure speculation - so until you know for sure what type you are, don't be too hasty to put yourself in harm's way and expect your training to protect you.

Greg
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Old 01-30-2012, 09:31 AM   #331
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Kristoffer Sandven wrote: View Post
Quote:
Quote:
Gregory Gargiso wrote:
Alone that is a true statement, but in context......
Oh I am sorry I thought this was a MARTIAL arts forum
Martial -of, suitable for, or associated with war or the armed forces: martial music.
3. characteristic of or befitting a warrior
LOL - what I mean is that there are ways of getting the guy on the other end to understand you have beaten him, without actually beating him up
Well, the point is that both are true and are not mutually exclusive.
The greater truth, is that IP/aiki does demonstrate it's superior approach without people getting hurt...all the time, and even makes them look at you funny or laugh at loud. It's even more fun when.... for the first time in their lives they actually start moving from center and using connection and aiki...like they have read about and thought they were doing.
From Shodan to Shihan I just shake their hands and say "Welcome to moving from your center." Most of what I see in Japanese Budo is just simply awful. Even embarrasing! When we tell people "We move from center" and "Our center is in our hands".... for the most part...we're not even close.
It's truly astounding that soo very many are so totally off base that you can't even have a discussion about trainng it or about the aspects of throwing in an aiki art. There is no common reference or as I said to Mat: "No mutual approach," at all.
You couldn't pay me to move like the majority of Japanese Shihan I have seen!

Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-30-2012 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 01-30-2012, 09:43 AM   #332
gregstec
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Earlier I said I think training might be able to help change you from a flee to fight type, but after some thought, I am not all that sure about that . Of course, training can help you with your conditioned response to be better able to fight back, but I still think if you are a flee type person, you are going to freeze initially and all that conditioned training will just not manifest itself in time to be effective.

Greg
Let me just add to this: Although I do not think dojo training can change your type, I think that real exposures to startling situations may be able to help change your conditioned reflex - something like what happens on a battlefield - after your initial freeze, and you survive, you might just get numb to being startled over and over again - at that point, your training can kick in and take over.

Greg
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Old 01-30-2012, 09:46 AM   #333
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, except that Mary's comments don't clearly establish that she doesn't mean exactly the same. She has rejected "testing" in the discussion...so it does begin to sound like purely cooperative following of form with a guaranteed fall.
David -

I'm not sure where you got the impression that Mary or I "reject testing" in our practice. It's simply not accurate. As I pointed out earlier, our version of cooperative practice includes resistance training. We also employ many different Ki exercises that involve testing (Maybe you are referring to this statement: "If testing and competing with others is important to you"). I think there may be a disconnect here that confuses competitive testing (win/lose) with cooperative testing where the object is to help your partner grow stronger. We do not engage in the former and regularly practice the latter.

To fall or not to fall is a dynamic that must be evaluated in the moment based on factors that include: safety issues, the object of the exercise being practiced and the relative experience of the players. To make blanket statements (not implying that you have) that one should take a fall only if compelled to do so oversimplifies the issue.

Best,

Ron

Last edited by RonRagusa : 01-30-2012 at 09:50 AM.

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Old 01-30-2012, 09:59 AM   #334
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
I think there may be a disconnect here that confuses
1. competitive testing (win/lose)
2. with cooperative testing where the object is to help your partner grow stronger. Best,
Ron
Actually I think most of us get that Ron.
What we are arguing is that no one will ever achieve the higher order and your stated objectives of #2...to help your partner grow stronger... without #1.
People want to be free to do their practice and not be critiqued and that's fine. But these things are not just merely opinion. When you step into it by talking about self defense and true capability and not underestimating you or your methods (you do so regularly)-all while discussing cooperation-and producing videos- you open yourselves up to scrutiny and comparisons. Then, it is a whole different discussion of whether you can debate certain types of uncooperative training will virtually take apart people who practice less stressful training...or not.
And more so whether certain types of win/ lose martial training will forever dominate cooperative training.

Everyone is free to go have fun, and be left alone. Until they willingly choose to enter into certain subjects where the results are measurable and replicable to the point of being empirical.
To strain a point only to demonstrate an extreme:
1. Cooperative training like the type in your videos will never produce an excellent cage fighter, agreed?
2. Yet there is cooperative training in MMA as well. It is used as a first step in training before the advanced stress training (win/lose) takes place to fine tune and improve skills. Yes...improve...as in grow stronger.

So now it is just a measure of discussing degrees of what cooperative training can and cannot do. And people being self aware. Were someone trained to fight force-on-force to face someone who trained cooperatively? I will bet on the force-on-force guy everytime.
Why? With your own stated obectives?
To help your partner grow stronger .... The win/lose model is superior in producing results. The rest can just be aikido, who cares...until you meet that guy!

Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-30-2012 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:01 AM   #335
Garth
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Greg

I dont know where I just read it ,
and it maybe way off topic of thread, but a "reaction" to an action is what comes from a person naturally based on their experiences in this world. A "response" would be a trained or educated "reaction" not just instinct, based on training or new experiences. So a newborn, in theory, would not "fight" because it has no experience or knows what this is. (See Sparta)
I know that you know that the "freeze up" reaction can be conditioned right out of people .
I am just saying that there was some degree of cooperative training involved in getting them their.
So if someone did not cooperative and teach me koshinage ukemi ...... slowly.... I would be in a hospital bed with a broken neck or dead....
Different arts doi it with varying degress of speed and intensity according to understanding age and athleticism, but it has to be there

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:03 AM   #336
Garth
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Let me just add to this: Although I do not think dojo training can change your type, I think that real exposures to startling situations may be able to help change your conditioned reflex - something like what happens on a battlefield - after your initial freeze, and you survive, you might just get numb to being startled over and over again - at that point, your training can kick in and take over.

Greg
Hence "live fire " exercises? There is cooperation there so you dont get shot or blowed up

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:16 AM   #337
Garth
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

"The limits of cooperative training"
Exactly Dan , thanks
I have always felt that headgear and mouthpieces should be donned at Aikido dojos to increase those limits.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:25 AM   #338
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
"The limits of cooperative training"
Exactly Dan , thanks
I have always felt that headgear and mouthpieces should be donned at Aikido dojos to increase those limits.
Well I don't think that will be adopted any time soon!! And with certain training, head gear only gets you so far.
Self awareness can occur on many levels. Unfortunately with martial arts it is typically not a very pleasant affair. Martial arts or budo, do not typically produce highly capable people. For most, it's just a hobby. The trouble arises when people think that it does. I have seen dojo kata kings going through the motions in all manner of budo -not just aikido. As a result, people are often very confidant for all the wrong reasons. Their self awarness usually arrives with lumps and bumps or them looking up!
Dan
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:35 AM   #339
Garth
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

"Self awareness can occur on many levels"

I hope, because I do not know how many "life and death" type circumstances I have left in me

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:40 AM   #340
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

why does self awareness have to be so hard?
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:48 AM   #341
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I wish it was possible to have a clear definition for this strange colloquial term called uncooperative training. I've never seen any and never will. Yet another term I find of no use myself.
Yours is the first deployment I've seen of that term. I prefer to use the term "resistant training" and many people say "live" training.

In yoseikan, we had shite randori, with set attacks and defenses, jiyu randori, with completely free attacks, and chikara randori, meaning free attacks and defenses, with uke giving continuous, strong follow up attacks if nage does not effect a decisive response in the first instant of the attack. If the attacker doesn't have to fall, he does not and continues the attack. This often went to the ground and newaza, frequently ending in a choke or strangulation. And remember that the yoseikan randori was full of sutemi waza, multiple opponents, bokken, padded pvc swords, knives, bo, etc. I never saw anyone use throwing stars or the claw hands, but most everything else.

It was cooperative, yet when two people were grappling on the ground, they were cooperating by giving the partner a tough opponent intent on choking him out or submitting him. It was basically the same as UFC but without bloodying each other up too much. We placed atemi but generally didn't strike each other heavily. And if you didn't throw someone who punched at you, he might follow up with a foot sweep and attempt to apply a joint lock of a wide variety.

What we cooperated in was a universal commitment to a powerful, meaningful attack allowing nage to develop first-instant throwing or joint-locking--not meaning that the joint is locked in the first instant, but the lead into the lock is established in the first instant, creating kuzushi and control for nage. It was intense and dangerous. And it took cooperative commitment to that danger, courage and calmness to move in it at high speed with lots of people and weapons, and commitment to the well-being of your partner, with the rule of never doing more than necessary to stop a violent person--but stopping him decisively.

Cooperative or uncooperative, whatever you would call it, that was real aikido and, as far as I'm concerned, the only meaningful progression to develop true technique. The internal power considerations are another matter.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Better terminology needed methinks.
I would suggest "kata-only" for those practices in which uke purposely moves in the way he is "supposed" to move, rather than how his reflexes advise him. In "kata-only" training, neither uke nor nage gives any resistance to the other or to the mutual performance of the kata that each technique is.

I can see value in that kind of practice maybe 5% of total time, with another 20% being actual kata training, such as Mochizuki's tai sabaki no kata or his hyori no kata; or Tomiki's "walking" kata and others, such as junana no kata. Another 25% being intense kihon waza training and 50% being randori. The randori levels would increase with the student's experience, with shite or designated randori early on, jiyu randori nearing black belt and chikara randori after that, at which time randori should be liberally peppered with sutemi waza. Under Mochizuki, we regularly did hour-long sutemi-only chikara randori.

So that type of training would fall under what I prefer to term "live" practice.

I would recommend some "kata-only" training from the beginning, with more and more "resistance" from uke when nage's technique leaves that possibility.

Two major points:

In "kata-only" practice, neither uke nor nage resists the other's efforts.

In "live" practice, uke may resist with strength, speed and technique if he can find an opportunity; but nage's training is to move in such a way that he never resists uke in any way, so that uke can find no strength to resist and all his efforts fall into nothing.

Again, this does not address questions of internal power development or use. This is just the omote form of technical aikido training. I do believe that IP/Aiki would make it much easier to bear training of that kind while making every technique a living thing, rather than a form (kata).

But for training solid aikido technique and application, the "cooperation" of uke and nage must be a commitment to development of instant aikido technical effectiveness against a strong and "live" uke, committed to an effective attack.

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:50 AM   #342
gregstec
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
Greg

I dont know where I just read it ,
and it maybe way off topic of thread, but a "reaction" to an action is what comes from a person naturally based on their experiences in this world. A "response" would be a trained or educated "reaction" not just instinct, based on training or new experiences. So a newborn, in theory, would not "fight" because it has no experience or knows what this is. (See Sparta)
I know that you know that the "freeze up" reaction can be conditioned right out of people .
I am just saying that there was some degree of cooperative training involved in getting them their.
So if someone did not cooperative and teach me koshinage ukemi ...... slowly.... I would be in a hospital bed with a broken neck or dead....
Different arts doi it with varying degress of speed and intensity according to understanding age and athleticism, but it has to be there
Never said cooperative training was not useful - but it has its limits in producing real effectiveness.
As to the response/reaction thing - well, I understand the difference and one or the other can probably be affected by training and or some sort of conditioning. However, I also think we are born with certain instincts that initially mold our conditioning aptitudes. Just my opinion, and of course, YMMV

Greg
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:51 AM   #343
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
"The limits of cooperative training"
Exactly Dan , thanks
It's one of the few reasons I actually do get pissed at some budo people. They want to borrow the reputation of the arts or people in them....without putting in the work and pain to produce powerful results under stress. It's cheap. A cowards way out. I used to think you would expect people to look at themselves -without the need for outside correction- and say "Hey wait a minute, I have never been in a real fight in my life, much less with using my so called martial arts skills, so why should I feel so confident?"
But as I met more and more people with these really warped and skewed views of what will actually work, I realized they are true believers. Some idiot sensei-himself a true believer- somewhere, somehow, produced another idiot sensei who produced these people. Hence the truly bizarre movements we see in some aikido schools-with people who are absofreakinlutely confident that they will work. Have you noticed the Aiki-bunnies™(by Meik Skoss) are, for the most part, more and more isolated to practicing among themselves? Why? They found out they can't face real stress.

Thankfully this is happening less and less as the better aikido teachers step in with much more educated training. As the landscape of MMA and what is martially valid unfolds, the good aikido teachers will survive and possibly thrive. The aikido that is left has a whole slew of people cross training and strengthening the art. It's another case of reducing the numbers, trimming the fat, and growing strong again. I see it happening to aikido on two fronts IP/aiki and better fighting skills. I've lost track of the Aikido people I am meeting who train Koryu, BJJ, MMA, FMA ICMA...and still love and practice, Aikido with a whole new awareness of its own strengths, and who can deliver.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-30-2012 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:04 AM   #344
chillzATL
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It's one of the few reasons I actually do get pissed at some budo people. They want to borrow the reputation of the arts or people in them....without putting in the work and pain to produce powerful results under stress. It's cheap. A cowards way out. I used to think you would expect people to look at themselves -without the need for outside correction- and say "Hey wait a minute, I have never been in a real fight in my life, much less with using my so called martial arts skills, so why should I feel so confident?"
But as I met more and more people with these really warped and skewed views of what will actually work, I realized they are true believers. Some idiot sensei-himself a true believer, somewhere somehow,produced another idiot sensei who produced this guy. Hence the truly bizarre movements we see in some aikido schools-with people who are absofreakinlutely confident that they will work. Have you noticed the aiki bunnies are, for the most part, isolated to practicing among themselves? Why? They found out they can't face stress.

Thankfully this is happening less and less as the better aikido teachers step in with much more educated training. As the landscape of MMA and what is martially valid unfolds, the good aikido teachers will survive and possibly thrive. The aikido that is left has a whole slew of people cross training and strengthening the art. It's another case of reducing the numbers, trimming the fat, and growing strong again. I see it happening to aikido on two fronts IP/aiki and better fighting skills. I've lost track of the Aikido people I am meeting who train Koryu, BJJ, MMA, FMA ICMA...and still love and practice, Aikido with a whole new awareness of its own strengths, and who can deliver.
Dan
How many of those people are taking that cross-training and using it to change how they teach aikido and how exactly are they changing it? I understand the not giving up their centers like it's their job, making people work through real force and resistance and doing things that are technically, from a fighting standpoint, sound, but that still does not make one a fighter of any note, especially as it relates to MMA.
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:07 AM   #345
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Gregory Gargiso wrote: View Post
"Self awareness can occur on many levels"

I hope, because I do not know how many "life and death" type circumstances I have left in me
Ahh...but self awareness does not always cost the same. There is a host of smart people in budo, self aware, and observing and listening!
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:10 AM   #346
Garth
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

However, I also think we are born with certain instincts that initially mold our conditioning aptitudes"

If that were the case, then gender shoud have something to do with it also. And women would be incapable because their hormones embue them certain instincts? OH NO YOU DIDNT!!!
Nature Vs Nurture? That is an arguement better left for scientists.

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:13 AM   #347
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
What we are arguing is that no one will ever achieve the higher order and your stated objectives of #2...to help your partner grow stronger... without #1.
Hi Dan -

I don't agree with your assertion that without #1 the objective of #2 cannot be achieved. I have trained this way for a long time and am far stronger now than when I began, as are the students who regularly train with me.

Quote:
People want to be free to do their practice and not be critiqued and that's fine. But these things are not just merely opinion. When you step into it by talking about self defense and true capability and not underestimating you or your methods (you do so regularly)-all while discussing cooperation-and producing videos- you open yourselves up to scrutiny and comparisons...
Well I have never talked about "true capability" since I'm not sure of the context in which you're using that phrase. As far as self defense is concerned, Aikido is but one small component in an overall strategy of self protection. And I don't mind having our video clips picked apart. I didn't post them to prove a point, they're just examples of some of the stuff we do.

Quote:
To strain a point only to demonstrate an extreme:
1. Cooperative training like the type in your videos will never produce an excellent cage fighter, agreed?
2. Yet there is cooperative training in MMA as well. It is used as a first step in training before the advanced stress training (win/lose) takes place to fine tune and improve skills. Yes...improve...as in grow stronger.
#1 - My type of training is no more likely to produce a good cage fighter than a basket weaving class will produce a good brain surgeon.
#2 - Interesting.

Quote:
So now it is just a measure of discussing degrees of what cooperative training can and cannot do. And people being self aware. Were someone trained to fight force-on-force to face someone who trained cooperatively? I will bet on the force-on-force guy everytime.
Why? With your own stated obectives?
You misunderstand my objectives. You keep weaving the fighting paradigm into the discussion when you know full well that fighting is not part of my training regimen. When I speak of my strength and power it's always in relation to what it once was compared to now. My strength continues to grow, even as my technique grows softer and more subtle, as I age and practice. I recognize it, my training partners recognize it as I do the changes in them.

Quote:
To help your partner grow stronger .... The win/lose model is superior in producing results. The rest can just be aikido, who cares...until you meet that guy!
Now it may happen that should I ever meet that guy we'll sit down to dinner and a drink together, have a nice chat and part friends.

All the best to you,

Ron

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Old 01-30-2012, 11:17 AM   #348
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
How many of those people are taking that cross-training and using it to change how they teach aikido and how exactly are they changing it? I understand the not giving up their centers like it's their job, making people work through real force and resistance and doing things that are technically, from a fighting standpoint, sound, but that still does not make one a fighter of any note, especially as it relates to MMA.
Well that's a question to ask them. There are hundreds of them right here and with threads all over the place; Aikido and MMA, Aikido and BJJ, Aikido and weapons etc. Seems to me they're aikido is still aikido.
I hear more trouble from folks doing internal/aiki training. As one Shihan blurted in room.."This is getting ridiculous! I am doing less and less and people are flying, slamming down and I can't move without them locking up and screaming. What am I going to do.. stand still?"
To which one seminar attendee said "Oh poor you!!"
Dan
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:22 AM   #349
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Yours is the first deployment I've seen of that term. I prefer to use the term "resistant training" and many people say "live" training.

In yoseikan, we had shite randori, with set attacks and defenses, jiyu randori, with completely free attacks, and chikara randori, meaning free attacks and defenses, with uke giving continuous, strong follow up attacks if nage does not effect a decisive response in the first instant of the attack. If the attacker doesn't have to fall, he does not and continues the attack. This often went to the ground and newaza, frequently ending in a choke or strangulation. And remember that the yoseikan randori was full of sutemi waza, multiple opponents, bokken, padded pvc swords, knives, bo, etc. I never saw anyone use throwing stars or the claw hands, but most everything else.

It was cooperative, yet when two people were grappling on the ground, they were cooperating by giving the partner a tough opponent intent on choking him out or submitting him. It was basically the same as UFC but without bloodying each other up too much. We placed atemi but generally didn't strike each other heavily. And if you didn't throw someone who punched at you, he might follow up with a foot sweep and attempt to apply a joint lock of a wide variety.

What we cooperated in was a universal commitment to a powerful, meaningful attack allowing nage to develop first-instant throwing or joint-locking--not meaning that the joint is locked in the first instant, but the lead into the lock is established in the first instant, creating kuzushi and control for nage. It was intense and dangerous. And it took cooperative commitment to that danger, courage and calmness to move in it at high speed with lots of people and weapons, and commitment to the well-being of your partner, with the rule of never doing more than necessary to stop a violent person--but stopping him decisively.

Cooperative or uncooperative, whatever you would call it, that was real aikido and, as far as I'm concerned, the only meaningful progression to develop true technique. The internal power considerations are another matter.

I would suggest "kata-only" for those practices in which uke purposely moves in the way he is "supposed" to move, rather than how his reflexes advise him. In "kata-only" training, neither uke nor nage gives any resistance to the other or to the mutual performance of the kata that each technique is.

I can see value in that kind of practice maybe 5% of total time, with another 20% being actual kata training, such as Mochizuki's tai sabaki no kata or his hyori no kata; or Tomiki's "walking" kata and others, such as junana no kata. Another 25% being intense kihon waza training and 50% being randori. The randori levels would increase with the student's experience, with shite or designated randori early on, jiyu randori nearing black belt and chikara randori after that, at which time randori should be liberally peppered with sutemi waza. Under Mochizuki, we regularly did hour-long sutemi-only chikara randori.

So that type of training would fall under what I prefer to term "live" practice.

I would recommend some "kata-only" training from the beginning, with more and more "resistance" from uke when nage's technique leaves that possibility.

Two major points:

In "kata-only" practice, neither uke nor nage resists the other's efforts.

In "live" practice, uke may resist with strength, speed and technique if he can find an opportunity; but nage's training is to move in such a way that he never resists uke in any way, so that uke can find no strength to resist and all his efforts fall into nothing.

Again, this does not address questions of internal power development or use. This is just the omote form of technical aikido training. I do believe that IP/Aiki would make it much easier to bear training of that kind while making every technique a living thing, rather than a form (kata).

But for training solid aikido technique and application, the "cooperation" of uke and nage must be a commitment to development of instant aikido technical effectiveness against a strong and "live" uke, committed to an effective attack.

Cheers.

David
Now that was an interesting post. A pleasure to read.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:34 AM   #350
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Hi Dan -
I don't agree with your assertion that without #1 the objective of #2 cannot be achieved. I have trained this way for a long time and am far stronger now than when I began, as are the students who regularly train with me.
Well I know that. But were you that you are happy with who is growing stronger training the way you do now ...
To meet the you that you could be, by training with the same soft power (with more advanced internal/ aiki components in place that are ONLY attained from different and more stressful training) The later you would prevent the other you from doing much of anything at all.
As one 20 yr Bagua guy said. "I didn't know, that I didn't know."
There is more to aiki...do, than most in Aikido™ are doing or will ever find. I sometimes feel like I am arguing that the earth is round. But hey...if everyone's happy who cares, right?


Quote:
Well I have never talked about "true capability" since I'm not sure of the context in which you're using that phrase. As far as self defense is concerned, Aikido is but one small component in an overall strategy of self protection. And I don't mind having our video clips picked apart. I didn't post them to prove a point, they're just examples of some of the stuff we do.
Well, I haven't picked them apart. I have only used them and Grahams to highlight cooperative training.

Quote:
#1 - My type of training is no more likely to produce a good cage fighter than a basket weaving class will produce a good brain surgeon.....
You misunderstand my objectives. You keep weaving the fighting paradigm into the discussion when you know full well that fighting is not part of my training regimen. When I speak of my strength and power it's always in relation to what it once was compared to now. My strength continues to grow, even as my technique grows softer and more subtle, as I age and practice. I recognize it, my training partners recognize it as I do the changes in them.
Now it may happen that should I ever meet that guy we'll sit down to dinner and a drink together, have a nice chat and part friends.
All the best to you,
Ron
Well, that guy I was reffering to would be the proverbial fighter or bad guy, not a budo-ka interested in a Chai latte... (Which I love)
I think I am quite clear in differentiating your practice from discussions of fighting and or real stress. I think you and Graham are the ones who step in it by stating your practice can deliver and Grahams love breaks jo and is powerfully effective. You guys say it...not me. Leave that aspect out and most everyone here is not going to care what you do. God bless and have fun. For the record, I am far from the only one who challenges you guys on that aspect.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-30-2012 at 11:48 AM.
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