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Old 01-29-2012, 09:15 AM   #51
gates
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 193
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Re: Feeling

I realise we are drifting. Sorry folks.
The reason I ask because at some point is if the focus of the training or the methodology changes significantly then a name change can be useful to stop silly arguments by acknowledging a differentiation. For instance here I suspect people would react differently if you said you did kinomichi or used a label other than aikido.

Shin seems to be a major emphasis in kinomichi too.

Enjoy the journey
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Old 01-29-2012, 09:25 AM   #52
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Re: Feeling

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
In your world it appears to me that you can insult, put down, accuse, and it's all fine until someone tells you something good about me. Well my friend, enjoy it, I'm sure you must get some pleasure out of it.
Graham, it's not my intention to insult you and I haven't "accused" you of anything. But you have presented this "stuff" as aikido and it seriously contradicts any aikido I have ever seen anywhere. Then you call it "spiritual" but I find it difficult to consider appropriation of a well-established art as "spiritual" when you badly misrepresent that honorable art.

I do consider you to be a rather "nice" guy and I admire how you "usually" remain unruffled, but the ura peeks out from time to time, revealing that, below the surface your motivations are not so consistent with your claims.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Nice story though about Arnie.
I made it up.

In fact, I did meet Arnie once, but we didn't talk about weight lifting. I asked him about the movie he was then filming in my hometown. This was in 1975, shortly before he became a household name.

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:46 AM   #53
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
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Re: Feeling

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Graham, it's not my intention to insult you and I haven't "accused" you of anything. But you have presented this "stuff" as aikido and it seriously contradicts any aikido I have ever seen anywhere. Then you call it "spiritual" but I find it difficult to consider appropriation of a well-established art as "spiritual" when you badly misrepresent that honorable art.

I do consider you to be a rather "nice" guy and I admire how you "usually" remain unruffled, but the ura peeks out from time to time, revealing that, below the surface your motivations are not so consistent with your claims.

I made it up.

In fact, I did meet Arnie once, but we didn't talk about weight lifting. I asked him about the movie he was then filming in my hometown. This was in 1975, shortly before he became a household name.

Cheers.

David
I'm sure it does contradict any Aikido you have ever experienced. However some folks recognise some similarities with some other Aikido. As keith just pointed out to do with Kinomichi. Others have pointed out similarities with Ki Aikido. Others have recognised similarities with their own Aikido. Never have I said or presented it as what is considered 'mainstream' Aikido.

There are a lot of other Aikido worlds out there not part of the mainstream. My teacher has been private for round about 40 years. He didn't like the politics.

His students over that period are dotted around many places, some with their own set ups and own name.

He is well known by the local police force for over the years teaching some Aikido but even more well known for helping those who suffer stress induced problems due to the job. Lot's of things happen and are done outside of our worlds and our experiences.

I like your comment about 'beneath the surface' though. I look forward to them in myself and thus find new parts of me that need 'clearing' It fits well with my way and my way of Aikido too. Any thoughts or feelings or actions or communications that don't match with my principles and way are thus my next lesson to deal with on my path.

Motivations are the cornerstone of my particular way. This in fact is the discipline. How to accomplish it in action or indeed communication is the challenge.

Arnie was brought up somewhere near here but I never met him. My friend who teaches with me was into body building and body building competitions at the time of Arnie too, don't think he met him either but I might be wrong there.

Have fun.

Regards.G..
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Old 01-29-2012, 11:10 AM   #54
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,508
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Re: Feeling

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I'm sure it does contradict any Aikido you have ever experienced. However some folks recognise some similarities with some other Aikido.
"I have hearsay and speculation, your honor. Those are kinds of evidence..."

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
As keith just pointed out to do with Kinomichi.
Which is not "aikido," but "kido," Kiddo.

When I say "aikido," of course, I mean something that Morihei Ueshiba would at least recognize.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Others have pointed out similarities with Ki Aikido. Others have recognised similarities with their own Aikido. Never have I said or presented it as what is considered 'mainstream' Aikido.
Yeah. The hats were pretty much a clue to that.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
There are a lot of other Aikido worlds out there not part of the mainstream. My teacher has been private for round about 40 years. He didn't like the politics.
I can understand not liking the politics and I can understand going your own way...as long as you don't sever the root...as you appear to have done. And that root is not just the appearance of the techniques but the spirit of stepping up, dropping the passive-aggressiveness and being willing to admit that others may know something a lot deeper than you.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
His students over that period are dotted around many places, some with their own set ups and own name.
Yeah...and his roots in aikido are...what? Did he train with Kenshiro Abbe or Tadashi Abe? Did he train with Henry Ellis or Ken Williams? Or...maybe Jack Poole?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I like your comment about 'beneath the surface' though. I look forward to them in myself and thus find new parts of me that need 'clearing' It fits well with my way and my way of Aikido too. Any thoughts or feelings or actions or communications that don't match with my principles and way are thus my next lesson to deal with on my path.
Very good, then. If your power were the "transparent power" type of thing, you wouldn't find my comments insulting. They would just pass through. Dan is that way. He recognizes when someone is trying to insult him, but he has too much going on to let it stick to him or inside him.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Motivations are the cornerstone of my particular way. This in fact is the discipline. How to accomplish it in action or indeed communication is the challenge.
Well, what I've been getting from your communications is an activity that has pretty much nothing to do with aikido except to appropriate the name. So much of the trouble would disappear from your way if you didn't call you own, idiosyncratic "way" aikido.

Or maybe you could get with someone who can show you actual aikido. Henry Ellis, for instance. Or Mark Freeman, who has offered to drop by.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-29-2012, 11:41 AM   #55
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
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Re: Feeling

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
"I have hearsay and speculation, your honor. Those are kinds of evidence..."

Which is not "aikido," but "kido," Kiddo.

When I say "aikido," of course, I mean something that Morihei Ueshiba would at least recognize.

Yeah. The hats were pretty much a clue to that.

I can understand not liking the politics and I can understand going your own way...as long as you don't sever the root...as you appear to have done. And that root is not just the appearance of the techniques but the spirit of stepping up, dropping the passive-aggressiveness and being willing to admit that others may know something a lot deeper than you.

Yeah...and his roots in aikido are...what? Did he train with Kenshiro Abbe or Tadashi Abe? Did he train with Henry Ellis or Ken Williams? Or...maybe Jack Poole?

Very good, then. If your power were the "transparent power" type of thing, you wouldn't find my comments insulting. They would just pass through. Dan is that way. He recognizes when someone is trying to insult him, but he has too much going on to let it stick to him or inside him.

Well, what I've been getting from your communications is an activity that has pretty much nothing to do with aikido except to appropriate the name. So much of the trouble would disappear from your way if you didn't call you own, idiosyncratic "way" aikido.

Or maybe you could get with someone who can show you actual aikido. Henry Ellis, for instance. Or Mark Freeman, who has offered to drop by.

Best to you.

David
There you go again telling me about me and what I should do. Ha, ha. You do luv it.

My teacher trained with Noro and Tohei. If that's not enough for your consideration then so be it.

Your invite is for you alone, I look foreward to meeting you.

Mark and I have already communicated and will be meeting very soon. One thing is for sure, we will have fun.

I will be only to happy to train with him and give reality to him on what I do. Such a person I will indeed be honoured and privilaged to meet and share two way with. And may we both learn from each other.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-29-2012, 04:49 PM   #56
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
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Re: Feeling

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Yeah...and his roots in aikido are...what? Did he train with Kenshiro Abbe or Tadashi Abe? Did he train with Henry Ellis or Ken Williams? Or...maybe Jack Poole?
Hi David,

I'm guessing (hoping) that you are using the name of Mr Poole in an ironic sense? I can't imagine why you would be using it otherwise

Quote:
Or maybe you could get with someone who can show you actual aikido. Henry Ellis, for instance. Or Mark Freeman, who has offered to drop by.
I hope to be seeing Graham in the not too distant future. I am happy to practice with anyone. As for me being able to show 'actual' aikido...not sure about that... I can only show him 'my' aikido, which is not the same as Henry Ellis' aikido. Personally I don't feel the need to prove anything, I do however have a desire to find the truth out for myself. One of the main reasons to quit working and travel out into the world looking for it, for some time (for that read, 'as long as the money lasts').

regards,

Mark
p.s. a good teacher doesn't automatically guarantee a good student

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 01-29-2012, 11:24 PM   #57
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,508
United_States
Offline
Re: Feeling

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I'm guessing (hoping) that you are using the name of Mr Poole in an ironic sense? I can't imagine why you would be using it otherwise
Mark, I really know little about Mr. Poole except what I've heard from T. Rex Sensei and the documentation on his website. So I guess you'd have to call it an ironic usage. But I did wonder to what UK aikido lineage Graham has connections. Not that I would know many of them at all. But if he could explain how this aikido comes to him from Ueshiba....it would be helpful.

BTW, did you see the thread on "the sock of ki"? It's here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20775

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I hope to be seeing Graham in the not too distant future. I am happy to practice with anyone. As for me being able to show 'actual' aikido...not sure about that... I can only show him 'my' aikido, which is not the same as Henry Ellis' aikido. Personally I don't feel the need to prove anything, I do however have a desire to find the truth out for myself.
Fantastic. My regards to you both. Would you remind me of your own lineage?

The spirit of yoseikan has always been "find out for yourself what is true". So I applaud your efforts. That's exactly why the Japanese martial artist's response to any claim has always been "Misete!"--"Show me!". The were looking for the truth and it was hard to come by. And where there was little entertainment, anything new was also interesting.

If you made a claim and they said "Show me" and you did but it wasn't effective on them, ,they had no respect for it. But they would at least respect your willingness to step up and put your claims on the line and they might teach you if your ego wasn't too big to learn from them

If you made some claim and they said "Misete!" and you wouldn't back up your claim, they might get very angry. It wasn't like you could go a lot of places. You were in a very local village, so you couldn't get away from anything you said in this little circle of hard-working, strong, high-spirited and easily irritated people. And you were going to stay pretty much around them for most of your life. And if they took a bad attitude toward you, it could fester in that little town. And many fights started that way. So people learned not to make claims if they weren't willing to show their ability. And out of a couple of thousand years, the Japanese people developed pretty much a culture of speaking very politely and modestly.

The popular image is that the Japanese have bred the impolite and crude and harsh out of their culture, but they adhere to that today not because it's bred out fo them but because it is still very active among them. Anything you say will lead to a thousand repercussions and embarrassments. That is still a very real and potent element of daily life among Japanese.

And remember that in the beginning the "Show me!" is said in a real spirit of sharing. Meaning "Share that with me!" though it might also of course mean, "Prove it!" But if two people are on friendly conversational terms and one of them makes a strange claim, if the listener really gets the idea that the speaker could possibly really have this ability, he will enthusiastically say "Show me!" The more real power and experience he has, the more likely he is to have the "Prove it!" attitude. But the beginning is usually friendly enthusiasm.

If anyone has great ability, budo people share that root desire to learn it also. Budo is certainly a quest for wonders. Still, after awhile, one gets a sense of what's likely and what's not, and can develop a pretty good BS meter, so...Graham just seems to set off the meters of a lot of pretty experienced people. Is what I'm saying.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I'm One of the main reasons to quit working and travel out into the world looking for it, for some time (for that read, 'as long as the money lasts').
You posted a general plan for that a bit back, didn't you? Are you really doing that? How old are you? It seems great to do it and I wish you luck. Please let me know if you get into the southeast US.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I'm p.s. a good teacher doesn't automatically guarantee a good student
Well, I'm proof of that. But having a better teacher does give you a wider view of the world of martial arts and does at least give you the experience of seeing someone who really does have deep ability. My survival all these years (56 so far) has been because of God's protection and not because of my skill. But God also put me with Mochizuki to see great ability and experience great character over some years. I remain constantly grateful for that experience and more amazed as the years go by that I actually had it.

Let me know when you're coming.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-30-2012, 04:57 AM   #58
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,150
United Kingdom
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Re: Feeling

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Mark, I really know little about Mr. Poole except what I've heard from T. Rex Sensei and the documentation on his website. So I guess you'd have to call it an ironic usage. But I did wonder to what UK aikido lineage Graham has connections. Not that I would know many of them at all. But if he could explain how this aikido comes to him from Ueshiba....it would be helpful.

BTW, did you see the thread on "the sock of ki"? It's here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20775

Fantastic. My regards to you both. Would you remind me of your own lineage?

The spirit of yoseikan has always been "find out for yourself what is true". So I applaud your efforts. That's exactly why the Japanese martial artist's response to any claim has always been "Misete!"--"Show me!". The were looking for the truth and it was hard to come by. And where there was little entertainment, anything new was also interesting.

If you made a claim and they said "Show me" and you did but it wasn't effective on them, ,they had no respect for it. But they would at least respect your willingness to step up and put your claims on the line and they might teach you if your ego wasn't too big to learn from them

If you made some claim and they said "Misete!" and you wouldn't back up your claim, they might get very angry. It wasn't like you could go a lot of places. You were in a very local village, so you couldn't get away from anything you said in this little circle of hard-working, strong, high-spirited and easily irritated people. And you were going to stay pretty much around them for most of your life. And if they took a bad attitude toward you, it could fester in that little town. And many fights started that way. So people learned not to make claims if they weren't willing to show their ability. And out of a couple of thousand years, the Japanese people developed pretty much a culture of speaking very politely and modestly.

The popular image is that the Japanese have bred the impolite and crude and harsh out of their culture, but they adhere to that today not because it's bred out fo them but because it is still very active among them. Anything you say will lead to a thousand repercussions and embarrassments. That is still a very real and potent element of daily life among Japanese.

And remember that in the beginning the "Show me!" is said in a real spirit of sharing. Meaning "Share that with me!" though it might also of course mean, "Prove it!" But if two people are on friendly conversational terms and one of them makes a strange claim, if the listener really gets the idea that the speaker could possibly really have this ability, he will enthusiastically say "Show me!" The more real power and experience he has, the more likely he is to have the "Prove it!" attitude. But the beginning is usually friendly enthusiasm.

If anyone has great ability, budo people share that root desire to learn it also. Budo is certainly a quest for wonders. Still, after awhile, one gets a sense of what's likely and what's not, and can develop a pretty good BS meter, so...Graham just seems to set off the meters of a lot of pretty experienced people. Is what I'm saying.

You posted a general plan for that a bit back, didn't you? Are you really doing that? How old are you? It seems great to do it and I wish you luck. Please let me know if you get into the southeast US.

Well, I'm proof of that. But having a better teacher does give you a wider view of the world of martial arts and does at least give you the experience of seeing someone who really does have deep ability. My survival all these years (56 so far) has been because of God's protection and not because of my skill. But God also put me with Mochizuki to see great ability and experience great character over some years. I remain constantly grateful for that experience and more amazed as the years go by that I actually had it.

Let me know when you're coming.

David
Dear David,
Without entering into the Jack Poole debate perhaps you might consider addressing Mr Ellis by his name rather than address him as T Rex Sensei?Mr Ellis may well be an elder statesman of U.K. Aikido and as such deserves respect.His own lineage is excellent having been trained by K.AbbeSensei /Tadashi Abbe Sensei/Noro Sensei /Chiba Sensei /Mr WilliamsSensei.Cheers, Joe
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Old 01-30-2012, 05:18 AM   #59
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,915
Spain
Offline
Re: Feeling

Hi Joe,

I think David adressing Mr Ellis as "T-Rex Sensei" is not disrespectful at all and he (Mr Ellis) would like the apellative. I believe he would like to be called himself a dinosaur in the aikido world of today, as he calls dinosaurs his masters from back in the day.

Regards

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Old 01-30-2012, 05:50 AM   #60
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Feeling

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post

BTW, did you see the thread on "the sock of ki"? It's here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20775
Hi David,

I did, and found it very interesting, I will reply to it later.

Quote:
Fantastic. My regards to you both. Would you remind me of your own lineage?
My primary teacher for the whole of my aikido practice has been Sensei Ken Williams, who as you are probably aware from reading Henry Ellis' very informative site, was the first British student to recieve Aikido training from Abbe Sensei, when he was given the go ahead from Japan to teach to westerners in 1955. He was head of all aikido in the UK after Abbe's return to Japan. Until Chiba was sent over by the Aikikai to take up this position (possibly to prevent Tohei from gaining influence here - I am unclear of any facts about this). Anyway after about 10 years studying with Tohei, he left to form his own organisation and remove himself from the politics of aikido in the UK.

His teaching is predominantly influenced by Tohei's method, but with his own twist. Underlying all of his teaching is his commitment to Abbe's style of budo, which had the greatest impact on his life. He is 81 years of age now and lives each day in the way that he learned from an exceptional budoka.

Quote:
The spirit of yoseikan has always been "find out for yourself what is true". So I applaud your efforts. That's exactly why the Japanese martial artist's response to any claim has always been "Misete!"--"Show me!". The were looking for the truth and it was hard to come by. And where there was little entertainment, anything new was also interesting.

If you made a claim and they said "Show me" and you did but it wasn't effective on them, ,they had no respect for it. But they would at least respect your willingness to step up and put your claims on the line and they might teach you if your ego wasn't too big to learn from them

If you made some claim and they said "Misete!" and you wouldn't back up your claim, they might get very angry. It wasn't like you could go a lot of places. You were in a very local village, so you couldn't get away from anything you said in this little circle of hard-working, strong, high-spirited and easily irritated people. And you were going to stay pretty much around them for most of your life. And if they took a bad attitude toward you, it could fester in that little town. And many fights started that way. So people learned not to make claims if they weren't willing to show their ability. And out of a couple of thousand years, the Japanese people developed pretty much a culture of speaking very politely and modestly.

The popular image is that the Japanese have bred the impolite and crude and harsh out of their culture, but they adhere to that today not because it's bred out fo them but because it is still very active among them. Anything you say will lead to a thousand repercussions and embarrassments. That is still a very real and potent element of daily life among Japanese.

And remember that in the beginning the "Show me!" is said in a real spirit of sharing. Meaning "Share that with me!" though it might also of course mean, "Prove it!" But if two people are on friendly conversational terms and one of them makes a strange claim, if the listener really gets the idea that the speaker could possibly really have this ability, he will enthusiastically say "Show me!" The more real power and experience he has, the more likely he is to have the "Prove it!" attitude. But the beginning is usually friendly enthusiasm.
Thanks for that, very interesting.

Quote:
You posted a general plan for that a bit back, didn't you? Are you really doing that? How old are you? It seems great to do it and I wish you luck. Please let me know if you get into the southeast US.
I am still planning my trip, I hope to be in the USA by late spring/early summer, some things have to be sorted out here before I can leave. I am 56 so you may agree that 1955 was a particularly good vintage
Of course I will let you know when I get down your way. I was planning around 4-5 months in the US, but that may be cut down to 3 months, due to the difficulty getting a longer visa (long story).

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 01-30-2012, 06:12 AM   #61
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,150
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Feeling

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi Joe,

I think David adressing Mr Ellis as "T-Rex Sensei" is not disrespectful at all and he (Mr Ellis) would like the apellative. I believe he would like to be called himself a dinosaur in the aikido world of today, as he calls dinosaurs his masters from back in the day.

Regards
Dear David,
Perhaps the tag of T Rex Sensei is a private joke between Henry and David?I know Henry has a good sense of humour. As it happens I might myself qualify as a member of the dinosaur age!! Cheers, Joe.
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