Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-28-2012, 10:12 AM   #251
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,907
Spain
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Graham,

Regardeless of the things Dan attributed (erroneously, you say) to you, not answering Dan's main question: "If I wanted to kick your butt, how would you avoid it?" hints to a serious lack of understanding from your part about how things work.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 10:30 AM   #252
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Demetrio. Funny how you see that as lack of understanding of how things work.

The question is not very good is it. Hitting, punching x amt. of times and kicking all in the space of 2 seconds with such power that breaks bones etc.

The answer is very clear to that one, it's a no brainer. If that happened to me or anyone they would be there with broken bones wouldn't they. Silly question.

I have been asked many times by students what if someone does this or does that then what would you do?

Should I afford him or you any different reply to what I give them?

I always say 'I don't know '

If that is an attempt at a discussion 'what if I try to kick your butt' then it's not a very good one.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 10:39 AM   #253
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,907
Spain
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Should I afford him or you any different reply to what I give them?

I always say 'I don't know '
Well, I always say "let's try" or, in some cases, "bring it on".

That's how things work in the (my) martial arts world. Your world is a different one and you don't understand mine.

Regards.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 10:49 AM   #254
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Well, I always say "let's try" or, in some cases, "bring it on".

That's how things work in the (my) martial arts world. Your world is a different one and you don't understand mine.

Regards.
Very good. Sounds like yours it getting closer to mine. Ha, ha.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 11:22 AM   #255
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Okay Graham
Your words and thoughts remain inconsistent. You have chosen to participate in a community and have entered into discussions of values and results in practice. You have stated repeatedly you have a superior understanding to pre war aiki and talked about power. That was your choice
I never cared until you participated in discussions of what I do -calling me a fraud. In your reply here you again attempt to reduce my efforts in teaching the community to promotional rhetoric.

Okay
Let's discuss throwing and skills and abilities to actually do so using aiki.

In both pre and post war Ueshiba stated his atemi can kill
Let's say I try to punch you in the face while not only retaining my center but it's moving in several different directions in a flash and in the space of two seconds I kick you and punch you four times.
Lets say that each of those kicks or punches have enough power to not only knock you out, but break bones and also eliminate the effective use of any limb you offer to "connect" with me. Now for clarity I have concussed people, or given them whip lash -even from a wrist grab-using about a tenth of my power.

Let's say, every time you move to stop me... I do not follow
Every time you touch me, I stick to whatever body part you send and I hit you agin and again...

Using the understanding of Ueshiba you claim to know...how do you stop me, much less ....how do you throw me? How do you -with the superior understanding you decided to claim here - in love bring a peaceful resolution to this conflict?

So, you have claimed to know what I do and you walked away from it twenty years ago into something superior. That means you can do what I do and now are better. Great.
Describe for us, how I can do these things? What is allowing it to happen what is the actual skill you are going to use to prevent it from happening?

I am interested in how your superior understanding of Ueshiba would stop Ueshibas pre-war form of aiki. I contend you cannot answer and will not answer....and have no ability to even try.
But, this is a discussion of throwing and aiki right? I not only know the answer to both sides, I demonstrate it and teach it under critical review...within the community and out.
Thoughts?
I am all ears.
Dan
A revisit. This time I will see if I can make sense of any of the above and answer accordingly. My aim is to find what's behind your beef.

Atemi can kill. Yes it can. I fail to see the point in saying that.

You have concussed people and given whiplash by grabbing wrist. Don't see what that clarifies unless you mean you use too much power.

'Lets say you move to stop me' I don't move to stop someone.

That means you can do what I do and now are better I don't do what you do.

Every time you touch me I stick to whatever body part you send. Not sure what you mean there.

How can I do these things? Which things? Sticking to someone? I do it with love. Don't know how you do it.

Prevent what from happening? Most that a person does I let happen. I move.

In the methods you use you should know the how and the how to harmonize with. That's obvious.

So in conclusion I fail to see what you are after. It seems to be all about you but as far as I know I will move according to the principles of Aikido from an attack. Irimi or whatever. I will move to a position of throw by entering or turning.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 12:30 PM   #256
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Imagine the response from the academic/science/research community to the following: A scientist says that he/she has made a remarkable discovery that can be reproducible consistently with the same results. This scientist puts forth wonderful sounding understandings from this depth of wisdom. The academic/scientific/research community says present your findings before us and allow us to replicate you studies so that we can verify the results. The scientist says that this is not necessary and that this has already been done. The scientist refuses to engage in the typical peer-review, study replication model that in universally employed in the sciences. When people refute the findings, conclusions and understanding of that scientist, the scientist simply retorts that they do not understand yet and that by following his/her guidance and words, someday the others will understand.

That kind of nonsense does occur. Not surprisingly, when those people who assume those positions have their "truths"' tested, their results are almost always not replicable. This might come as a surprise to some, but the martial arts community works according to similar principles. When people such as Graham put forth their "wisdom', "experience", and "abilities" and find every reason under the sun to avoid having those things demonstrated to an objective, informed audience, they simply do a disservice to themselves and to the art that they represent. If a person is not willing to allow for the verification of what they claim, then they simply look like deluded fools and charlatans. It is remarkable how much thread space such people take up. Much of the thread space simply involves some convoluted machination avoiding having to objectively demonstrate such "achievements." Our larger community should demand of ourselves and others, the level of empirical reality that helps to ensure that a martial art retains it's integrity. When people find ways to weasel out of having to walk the talk, the community at large should simply continue to provide simple responses that we are still waiting for you to walk your talk before we take anything said and alleged to be done seriously.

Just my 2 cents.

Marc Abrams
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 01:30 PM   #257
Walter Martindale
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
Location: Cambridge, ON
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 655
Canada
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Marc. Well said. To be 'real' or valid a 'concept' or 'proof' must be communicable to others and reproducible by others...
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 01:49 PM   #258
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Marc. Well said. To be 'real' or valid a 'concept' or 'proof' must be communicable to others and reproducible by others...
I agree.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 02:38 PM   #259
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,156
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Imagine the response from the academic/science/research community to the following: A scientist says that he/she has made a remarkable discovery that can be reproducible consistently with the same results. This scientist puts forth wonderful sounding understandings from this depth of wisdom. The academic/scientific/research community says present your findings before us and allow us to replicate you studies so that we can verify the results. The scientist says that this is not necessary and that this has already been done. The scientist refuses to engage in the typical peer-review, study replication model that in universally employed in the sciences. When people refute the findings, conclusions and understanding of that scientist, the scientist simply retorts that they do not understand yet and that by following his/her guidance and words, someday the others will understand.

That kind of nonsense does occur. Not surprisingly, when those people who assume those positions have their "truths"' tested, their results are almost always not replicable. This might come as a surprise to some, but the martial arts community works according to similar principles. When people such as Graham put forth their "wisdom', "experience", and "abilities" and find every reason under the sun to avoid having those things demonstrated to an objective, informed audience, they simply do a disservice to themselves and to the art that they represent. If a person is not willing to allow for the verification of what they claim, then they simply look like deluded fools and charlatans. It is remarkable how much thread space such people take up. Much of the thread space simply involves some convoluted machination avoiding having to objectively demonstrate such "achievements." Our larger community should demand of ourselves and others, the level of empirical reality that helps to ensure that a martial art retains it's integrity. When people find ways to weasel out of having to walk the talk, the community at large should simply continue to provide simple responses that we are still waiting for you to walk your talk before we take anything said and alleged to be done seriously.

Just my 2 cents.

Marc Abrams
For the sake of discussion we could give people the benefit of the doubt. Aikido can be a peaceful art. AikiWeb could be a place where everyone can post respectfully. People can choose what they want to read and who they want to ignore. We don't have to make ourselves look better by degrading others.

Graham practices Aikido on this board all the time. He says what he wants no matter how many times some people try to make him look ridiculous. You could learn a lot from how he posts.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 02:46 PM   #260
Gary David
 
Gary David's Avatar
Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: Marc. Well said. To be 'real' or valid a 'concept' or 'proof' must be communicable to others and reproducible by others...
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I agree.
Graham
I think with this discussion and with the aspects of Aiki that Dan is talking to communications has to be in person....has to become know through touch and feel.....not by talking back and forth on this forum. If dealing with Dan directly when he come over is not your cup of tea.......there are any number of folks in your area who have worked this Dan and who would share their experiences with you. It is also an opportunity to share your experiences with other that post here on this site. Any other approach is just talk .......talk has little value without shared experiences.

just go straight...

Gary
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 03:13 PM   #261
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
For the sake of discussion we could give people the benefit of the doubt. Aikido can be a peaceful art. AikiWeb could be a place where everyone can post respectfully. People can choose what they want to read and who they want to ignore. We don't have to make ourselves look better by degrading others.

Graham practices Aikido on this board all the time. He says what he wants no matter how many times some people try to make him look ridiculous. You could learn a lot from how he posts.
Mary:

Would any empirical scientist give another scientist the benefit of the doubt? Would any scientist with any integrity whatsoever expect another scientist to give him/her the benefit of the doubt? Your comment stands out as odd when viewed from an empirical perspective. It has nothing to do with personalities. It has nothing to due with how someone views our art either. People are more than welcome to post respectfully whenever and wherever they want to.

It stands out as bizarre to me that you can somehow construe an objective, empirical perspective to be viewed as non-peaceful, disrespectful, or degrading for that matter. Did O'Sensei not put his skills to the test when meeting Takeda Sensei? I think that putting one's skills, ideas and beliefs to objective, empirical tests in the hallmark of integrity and respect.

Your claim that Graham is somehow practicing some kind of "Aikido" is likewise bizarre. Aikido is not about avoiding and escaping reality. Aikido is not practiced through words in absence of actions. In that respect, Graham is his own worst enemy. People have given him ample opportunity to respectfully demonstrate what he believes that he can do and say. People have respectfully given him ample opportunity to experience what others say that they can do and say in an atmosphere of camaraderie and mutual respect. It has only been Graham who has avoided those opportunities. I can find no historical evidence of O'Sensei actively seeking to avoid having his ideas and abilities demonstrated in an empirical and objective manner in an atmosphere of respect.

I frankly find it bizarre that you can somehow describe the request that we, like O'Sensei, and others before him and after him, hold ourselves up to lofty standards. For example, I initially thought that Dan Harden was big on ideas and short on reality of actions. He provided us with an opportunity for a group of us to get together and explore what each of us thought and believed. I was never belittled, nor was upset and hurt to find out that I was the one who was short on ideas and reality of actions (beside short in stature ). I had no problem apologizing to Dan personally. Dan never rubbed that in my face, or anybody else's face for that matter. We all met and trained in an atmosphere of mutual respect and camaraderie with the over-riding goal of all of us being able to empirically and objectively define, develop and display skill sets that are at the foundation of our art.

I frankly think that you can learn a lot from stepping away from your keyboard and seeing what people really have and don't have in terms of skill sets and the ideas behind them. In the world of martial arts, words in absence of actions are vapid and ridiculous. People who are not willing to put their words into action in an empirical, objective manner in an atmosphere of respect and camaraderie are the ones who demean themselves and the art that they allegedly represent. Aikido is a martial art and can be defined in one's actions and in one's words. Aikido in not a martial art that can simply be defined through one's words as simply an armchair warrior.

The issue that I raised goes far beyond you, me, Dan, or Graham. It has everything to do with holding ourselves and others up to the standards that have been the hallmark of martial arts throughout the world. The level of respect, integrity and camaraderie that comes from these standards is visible to all. When people do not live up to those standards, it is visible to all as well.

Marc Abrams
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 07:17 PM   #262
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 872
Online
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Mary:

Would any empirical scientist give another scientist the benefit of the doubt? Would any scientist with any integrity whatsoever expect another scientist to give him/her the benefit of the doubt?
Yes. It happens all the time. A surprising result from a Nobel Prize winner's laboratory will be taken much more seriously than the same result from a less-respected source. Even though there have been documented cases of scientific fraud in the laboratories of Nobel winners.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 07:35 PM   #263
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
A revisit. This time I will see if I can make sense of any of the above and answer accordingly. My aim is to find what's behind your beef.
Atemi can kill. Yes it can. I fail to see the point in saying that.
You have concussed people and given whiplash by grabbing wrist. Don't see what that clarifies unless you mean you use too much power.

'Lets say you move to stop me' I don't move to stop someone.

That means you can do what I do and now are better I don't do what you do.

Every time you touch me I stick to whatever body part you send. Not sure what you mean there.

How can I do these things? Which things? Sticking to someone? I do it with love. Don't know how you do it.

Prevent what from happening? Most that a person does I let happen. I move.

In the methods you use you should know the how and the how to harmonize with. That's obvious.

So in conclusion I fail to see what you are after. It seems to be all about you but as far as I know I will move according to the principles of Aikido from an attack. Irimi or whatever. I will move to a position of throw by entering or turning.

Regards.G.
It is a thread on Aikido and throwing,
You said you know what Ueshiba does and how.
Therefore, you have this type of power, how it is trained and accomplished and how it is canceled out, what is required. How you have this unusual power and the greater Aikido community deosn't know is another question all together.

How does atemi attain such power?
How are the things I describe done?
If.....you know Ueshiba's aiki, this is a no brainer.
Describe how these things are done.
Describe how to prevent them from being done.
They cannot be stopped, or prevented with love or with moving or irimi. Turning is an interesting comment. How?
How would Ueshiba's aiki accomplish these things on both sides..
No other comment on me.... is required

Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-28-2012 at 07:42 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 07:47 PM   #264
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,504
United_States
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Well, I always say "let's try" or, in some cases, "bring it on".

That's how things work in the (my) martial arts world. Your world is a different one and you don't understand mine.
Demetrio, the world you describe is the same as the one I know in budo. It's strange that Graham completely rejects it. Ueshiba had your same attitude, too. Mochizuki. Tomiki, Saito, Shioda. Every real budo man (or woman) I've known has had that attitude. I wonder why Graham does not share it since he is an aikido man.

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 07:51 PM   #265
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,504
United_States
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Very good. Sounds like yours it getting closer to mine. Ha, ha.
Really? Demetrio said "I always say "let's try" or, in some cases, "bring it on"."

That's also what Dan says. And what Ueshiba said, what Mifune said, what Sanpo said. Sugino said it, too. (Did he ever.)

But when Dan has invited you for free to attend his workshop (after he has made the effort and undergone the expesnse of coming at least to your own country), you reply along the lines of "Those things are ego and I don't deal with them because I am spiritual."

Sounds like Demetrio's approach (and Dan's, Ueshiba's, Mifune's, Mochizuki's, Tomiki's, Shioda's, Saito's) is really quite opposite yours.

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 08:02 PM   #266
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Quote:

Graham
I think with this discussion and with the aspects of Aiki that Dan is talking to communications has to be in person....has to become know through touch and feel.....not by talking back and forth on this forum. If dealing with Dan directly when he come over is not your cup of tea.......there are any number of folks in your area who have worked this Dan and who would share their experiences with you. It is also an opportunity to share your experiences with other that post here on this site. Any other approach is just talk .......talk has little value without shared experiences.

just go straight...

Gary
Gary.
I like your approach. I still fail to see how or why anyone thinks I want to experience it anyway.However, if I did it would be in a budo and thus respectful manner. I would ask if someone would be so kind as to show me or teach me. Note, I would ask. If I was refused I would respect that also.
All this you should and you must is nothing to do with budo or integrity or any similar such thing.

Secondly may I point out that up to now a few people have approached me from this forum and asked to train with me, just sharing, and I have never said no. Two I openly said it would be an honour and a pleasure. There has only been one other to whom I said I would gladly meet to see what he wants for I had never talked to this person on here yet he contacted me by pm. As yet no one has made it.(By the way, there is one person who has trained with Dan who said he would come too)

Apart from that, if someone wants to learn my way then they always have been welcome, nothing new there. If they don't yet are curious about an aspect of it technically, spiritually, geometrically etc then they are free to ask. If they believe they can tell me what I need or what I should do then I suggest they keep those thoughts to themselves.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 08:11 PM   #267
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Very few people in Aikido claim this level of understanding...well at least in public. I do have questions of my own that the nature of these claims bring up.

When it comes to throwing and being thrown and being able to use aiki:
1. How does someone who has this advanced understanding escape the attention of people in budo?
2. How can someone possess the body skills required to do these things and cancel them out and not have it show anywhere in their movements?
3. Why, would someone display a body that is a mess and thoroughly disconnected in all of their movements.

I ask because when I play uke I have to change my body in order to have anyone be able to actually do anything to me. This is part of the reason the theory of ukemi teaching internal strength and aiki.... is nonsense.
When I am nage the connection is displayed.
So why would someone demonstrate a disconnected body while being nage... and lumber around one side weighted and shoulder heavy and not actually display moving from center all over the internet? Why do they not teach people how to do it and have students who can do it as well who look and feel different? Where are these people?

Why have so few well known teachers decided to not only pursue it... but to display it?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-28-2012 at 08:14 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 08:28 PM   #268
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Very few people in Aikido claim this level of understanding...well at least in public. I do have questions of my own that the nature of these claims bring up.

When it comes to throwing and being thrown and being able to use aiki:
1. How does someone who has this advanced understanding escape the attention of people in budo?
2. How can someone possess the body skills required to do these things and cancel them out and not have it show anywhere in their movements?
3. Why, would someone display a body that is a mess and thoroughly disconnected in all of their movements.

I ask because when I play uke I have to change my body in order to have anyone be able to actually do anything to me. This is part of the reason the theory of ukemi teaching internal strength and aiki.... is nonsense.
When I am nage the connection is displayed.
So why would someone demonstrate a disconnected body while being nage... and lumber around one side weighted and shoulder heavy and not actually display moving from center all over the internet? Why do they not teach people how to do it and have students who can do it as well who look and feel different? Where are these people?

Why have so few well known teachers decided to not only pursue it... but to display it?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Dan
1) By being independent.
2) Different skills.
3) That proves it.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 08:30 PM   #269
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,504
United_States
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
For the sake of discussion we could give people the benefit of the doubt.
Why would we do that? The standard of "put up or shut up" has been a mainstay of budo from the beginning. Ueshiba always gladly proved whatever he said with action. So did Mochizuki, Tomiki, Shioda, Saito, and all the other pillars of aikido. Graham claims to have reached their level, essentially, but he refuses to let experienced people feel his technique and he refuses to come and see for himself (and for free) what Dan actually does. Yet he continually claims that he can do all that even while impugning Dan's character and the spiritual content of what Dan does. And that really stinks to high heaven for a budoka.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Aikido can be a peaceful art. AikiWeb could be a place where everyone can post respectfully. People can choose what they want to read and who they want to ignore. We don't have to make ourselves look better by degrading others.
Mary, it's not that anyone wants to denigrate Graham: it's his claims that we attack. And I find it astounding that you relate his amorphous meanderings and buzzwords to "peaceful aikido". In fact, old Graham is extremely passive-aggressive (which, itself, is very common among the less effective aikidoka of this world). Dan has tremendous power, but he is not only one of the most "peaceful" aiki people I've ever met: he is one of the most joyous. His classes are fun and amazing--and the material he teaches is incredibly effective. Further, he explains in detail how to do everything he does, but Graham rejects it all with "I do that, too." Which is also very common in aikido. Of course, Graham is
free to say whatever he wishes and to post it for international audiences to examine, but no one should consider it an attack on him if experienced and knowledgeable people point out the inconsistencies in what he says and what he does. And senior people always have the duty to point out these kinds of serious errors to prevent less-developed people from misktaking them for the truth. That's why scientific journals have peer-review. No one considers it "attacking" a scientist for pointing out errors in his math or formulae. But what if an infectious disease researcher wrote extensively about how "love" cures all diseases? Or what if a geologist claimed that God put dinosaur bones in the ground to allow liberal intellectuals to be confused? What if a chemistry professor published a paper claiming molecular bonding simply as "love" and claimed that it was not necessary to provide any kind of proof of his claim? Would the ineveitable storm of criticism mean that 1) the scientist's peers just didn't like him; 2) that the peers wanted to "degrade" him; 3) the peer are being disrespectful? Of course not. And excluding a few statements from both sides, no one has disrespected Graham more than Graham, himself, but posting claims that he will not defend in person with great martial ability.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Graham practices Aikido on this board all the time. He says what he wants no matter how many times some people try to make him look ridiculous. You could learn a lot from how he posts.
Mary...what Graham does on the forums is not "aikido" but simply passive-aggression, directed by an ego that is afraid to be tested for fear of failure and afraid to admit that others may actually have something far greater than he, himself "understands". I've just never known any budoka who could hear of something new and incredibly powerul and not be driven to find that great thing and try it out.

But Graham thrives on getting credit for what others have done simply by claiming, "I can do that, too. I've done it for years."

I'm surprised that you can see this enacted repeatedly and not be a little surprised at it, yourself.

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 08:59 PM   #270
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,156
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

I am not sure about bizarre or empircal...(I barely know what that means.)

For me Aikido is a co-operative practice between uke and nage. Nothing has to be proved to anyone. The connection is discovered as we train together. We fall when we are thrown. We practice Ki exercises together so we both develop correct feeling.

The goal for me is find the off balance of uke so they can be thrown. I don't force it...I pay close attention to each uke in each moment and the throw presents itself....right along with the Fun and Joy!

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 09:08 PM   #271
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Hi David
Thanks for advocating, but we all need to be advocating for truth and honesty, not me. These issues are past me or any one person. It needs to be you guys in the community fighting for Aikido.
Pretty much everyone who has gotten out and trained with the people who are actually teaching the things Ueshiba was capable of now know it is all but dead in Aikido.

You have a vast array of people in Aikido moving in the wrong direction that have all but destroyed the reputation of Aikido as a budo in the modern era. Dojo membership is way down and people seeking real skills and abilities are going elsewhere. The pretenders to Ueshiba's vision, while being obvious to us, are not obvious to the public looking. They...don't know how to differentiate the pretenders from good Aikido. So it is a very good thing to keep calling people on their claims and abilities to display anything that ever related to Morihei Ueshiba himself. Others, who just want to do their thing are different, I am talking about those who claim to know Ueshiba's aiki.
If we don't call these people on it....the public will continue to call the entire art on it.

Defending Ueshiba's vision and displaying his power is the only way we are going to move his art into the future as both a martial art...and a way. I am one of many, helping folks to do that.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-28-2012 at 09:19 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 09:14 PM   #272
Gary David
 
Gary David's Avatar
Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Gary.
Apart from that, if someone wants to learn my way then they always have been welcome, nothing new there. If they don't yet are curious about an aspect of it technically, spiritually, geometrically etc then they are free to ask. If they believe they can tell me what I need or what I should do then I suggest they keep those thoughts to themselves.

Regards.G.
Graham
A couple of things.....the training I am talking about is the casual gathering of folks to learn, compare, check and confirm principles, waza and just plain what works and what doesn't......no set teacher and the purpose is not to learn another way. Purpose is to make sure your stuff works (most of the time) and if not how to fix that. This has to be a sharing among friends (not talking about best friends), among folks who respect each other. A week ago Saturday we celebrated the 33rd memorial workout for the found on the dojo I started in back in 1974. 8 of the old gray beards, me included, each took about 20 minutes on the mat to teach, tell stories or whatever....300 plus years of Aikido experience between us. What did I think about after it was over? After realizing that each of us had pieces of the puzzle, but not the whole....what I stated at the end of my session....what if the 8 of us had stuck around together for another 15 years after Ishisaka Sensei's passing and worked together informally to get better.....wow....but it never happened. From my point of view, past a certain point real progress comes only with such gathering of folks working together to get better....a study group. It is also a given that sometimes individuals and groups need a kick in the a@% to get past certain blocks.......most individuals and groups don't even see the need.

Being limited somewhat by age and time I can't get around to a lot of folks to see where they are like I would like to and like I did regionally 20 years ago. Of those I know of who are in a position to provide this kick while actually be friendly, helpful and almost casual in their approach....one is Dan and the other is my friend John Clodig. My point here being that all of us need to get hit by the proverbial 2 by 4 occasionally just to wake us up. Having been around Aikido as long as I have, having trained with as many individuals and teachers as I have, having watched as much video as I have, having sat of as many testing boards as I have.......it 'feels' to me that you could benefit from getting out more.

It may be that my wife and I may come to your part of the world in a few years as my family is from Wales and Scotland and her's is from Ireland..... I'll be in my 70's, but will stop by if we have the chance.....

Just go straight

Gary
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 09:30 PM   #273
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
A couple of things.....the training I am talking about is the casual gathering of folks to learn, compare, check and confirm principles, waza and just plain what works and what doesn't......no set teacher and the purpose is not to learn another way. Purpose is to make sure your stuff works (most of the time) and if not how to fix that. This has to be a sharing among friends (not talking about best friends), among folks who respect each other. A week ago Saturday we celebrated the 33rd memorial workout for the found on the dojo I started in back in 1974. 8 of the old gray beards, me included, each took about 20 minutes on the mat to teach, tell stories or whatever....300 plus years of Aikido experience between us. What did I think about after it was over? After realizing that each of us had pieces of the puzzle, but not the whole....what I stated at the end of my session....what if the 8 of us had stuck around together for another 15 years after Ishisaka Sensei's passing and worked together informally to get better.....wow....but it never happened. From my point of view, past a certain point real progress comes only with such gathering of folks working together to get better....a study group. It is also a given that sometimes individuals and groups need a kick in the a@% to get past certain blocks.......most individuals and groups don't even see the need.

Being limited somewhat by age and time I can't get around to a lot of folks to see where they are like I would like to and like I did regionally 20 years ago. Of those I know of who are in a position to provide this kick while actually be friendly, helpful and almost casual in their approach....one is Dan and the other is my friend John Clodig. My point here being that all of us need to get hit by the proverbial 2 by 4 occasionally just to wake us up. Having been around Aikido as long as I have, having trained with as many individuals and teachers as I have, having watched as much video as I have, having sat of as many testing boards as I have.......it 'feels' to me that you could benefit from getting out more.

It may be that my wife and I may come to your part of the world in a few years as my family is from Wales and Scotland and her's is from Ireland..... I'll be in my 70's, but will stop by if we have the chance.....

Just go straight

Gary
Sounds good, both what you did a week ago and the thought of meeting you in the future.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 09:41 PM   #274
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 511
Australia
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I am not sure about bizarre or empircal...(I barely know what that means.)

For me Aikido is a co-operative practice between uke and nage. Nothing has to be proved to anyone. The connection is discovered as we train together. We fall when we are thrown. We practice Ki exercises together so we both develop correct feeling.

The goal for me is find the off balance of uke so they can be thrown. I don't force it...I pay close attention to each uke in each moment and the throw presents itself....right along with the Fun and Joy!
Hi Mary,

Please don't take this as an attack. I just want to clarify.

'Empirical' means that a thing can be measured or tested. I understand and approve of a lot of what you have said about how you train. However I believe the crux of the matter is how do you know when you have "correct feeling"? Is there a way to measure it? What if someone's feeling is more correct than another's? What Dan et al are saying is that they are able to test when their feeling is correct, and show how that feeling affects themselves and others in their training. What Graham is saying is that he knows within himself that his feeling is correct and he doesn't have to prove it to anybody. That is fair enough in my book, however it begs the question of why he is trying to convince us all of this fact? Why bother?

Now, I have no idea whether Dan's or Graham's claims are true. I have never met either of them. However, I do like my aikido to be demonstrable and repeatable. I know I have mistakenly thought I had "correct feeling" several times, when it turned out not to be the case. This was promptly demonstrated by my sensei as he joyfully introduced me to the mat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2012, 10:11 PM   #275
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
Hi Mary,

Please don't take this as an attack. I just want to clarify.

'Empirical' means that a thing can be measured or tested. I understand and approve of a lot of what you have said about how you train. However I believe the crux of the matter is how do you know when you have "correct feeling"? Is there a way to measure it? What if someone's feeling is more correct than another's? What Dan et al are saying is that they are able to test when their feeling is correct, and show how that feeling affects themselves and others in their training. What Graham is saying is that he knows within himself that his feeling is correct and he doesn't have to prove it to anybody. That is fair enough in my book, however it begs the question of why he is trying to convince us all of this fact? Why bother?

Now, I have no idea whether Dan's or Graham's claims are true. I have never met either of them. However, I do like my aikido to be demonstrable and repeatable. I know I have mistakenly thought I had "correct feeling" several times, when it turned out not to be the case. This was promptly demonstrated by my sensei as he joyfully introduced me to the mat.
What is correct...is that what everyone is looking for as "correct feeling" that moves people with ease....IS NOT AN INDIVIDUAL idea. What everyone is looking for:
Has a history
Is known in Asia
Has a language
Has a training method to produce it in you
Has a method to then strengthen it with various added components
And can be replicated in others.
This guy called Morihei Ueshiba knew that and talked about how to do it.
And the results are visable, testable and cannot be faked. Throwing and attempting to throw someone, hell, even touching hands with them reveals everything to those who do know.

What is incredibly sad is that it's very easy to get limited results that work and then get stuck there....for the rest of your life. All while thinking you're doing well...and you..... are missing everything you really wanted.

And THAT is what happens to those who hide from those with better information.
Sadder still is that these people?
Are teaching others
Oops.....
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-28-2012 at 10:23 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is the Goal of Aikido to reach another plane? Mark Uttech General 15 07-12-2008 04:13 PM
the unattainable goal nekobaka Spiritual 13 06-03-2007 09:27 AM
Poll: How realistic a goal do you feel is the "aikido" notion of defending yourself while minimizing or negating damage done to your attacker? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 26 05-16-2005 05:12 AM
To "The Masters" Aikidoiain General 31 10-07-2004 05:29 AM
Goal setting? Chris Wells General 12 05-30-2002 09:46 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:31 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate