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Old 01-21-2012, 01:34 PM   #51
sorokod
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Not just irirminage, all the nage

Videos you posted on YouTube for comparison: http://www.youtube.com/user/humblegee#g/u

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Old 01-21-2012, 01:54 PM   #52
gregstec
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Yo. We've been here before. Beyond control grasshopper. You are right though, it is logical. That's why most couldn't understand O'Sensei.

Regards.G.
There you go with that wacky stuff again - and the beat goes on.....

Greg
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Old 01-21-2012, 01:56 PM   #53
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
Not just irirminage, all the nage

Videos you posted on YouTube for comparison: http://www.youtube.com/user/humblegee#g/u
Same applies. Why watch something you can't do and think you understand?

Regards.G.
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Old 01-21-2012, 01:58 PM   #54
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
There you go with that wacky stuff again - and the beat goes on.....

Greg
It all seems wacky till you understand.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-21-2012, 02:04 PM   #55
mathewjgano
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
When training, don't work to master throws, work to resolve conflict. Strong awareness, and a calm mind do this much better than any throw (or kotegaeshi), ever could.
Just some thoughts from a bored (and somewhat distracted, sorry if my train jumps tracks a bit) papa trying to get his baby to sleep:
I'm guessing this is to say don't only work to master throws? Most of what I've seen on the dojo mat involves a lot more training for throws/etc. than other forms of conflict resolution. Spacial awareness and a relaxed mind are invaluable, and certainly constitute major aspects of training, but once they are established some action still must be performed.
In the education process there is explicit and implicit learning. The explicit lessons tend to be easier to pick up on since they tend to take center stage. This is why so many people, perhaps, are so focused on accumulating waza/forms at the expense of principle...and perhaps why the admonition to not focus on throws/waza, but rather to open the attention/awareness to other, possibly more important, factors. Where I see the greatest thrust of conflict resolution being learned is in the implicit side of things (which, being not explicit, makes it generally harder to learn): seeing how different people interact with each other; figuring out how to reconcile interactions with people we don't readily get along with.
This is why in the past I've described the physical potency as being less important and why I agree with your idea that the ability to throw isn't generally all that crucial. In the few mildly dangerous situations I've been in (few thanks largely to foresight), it was calm(ish) awareness that allowed me to take steps in the right direction. Of course, had they come to blows, that's when the need for competent throwing would have been undeniable.
So as I read these posts I can't help but notice different emphases on different points along the conflict continuum. Some folks look to physical competency as a way of creating confidence as a way of creating calm while others look to being calm to foster fluidity of thought to foster creativity in application. If we're to have the whole package, at some point we have to test the different parts...but then again, our personal goals determine our sense of that "whole."
...And considering the odds of being attacked, I can certainly understand why physical potency might be less a goal than mental well-being.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-21-2012, 02:05 PM   #56
sorokod
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Same applies. Why watch something you can't do and think you understand?

Regards.G.
Thought you would be happy, spread the word so to speak

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Old 01-21-2012, 02:07 PM   #57
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Thought you would be happy, spread the word so to speak
You're well behind in those stakes I'm afraid. But yes, I'm always happy.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-21-2012, 02:16 PM   #58
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Watch your tone, folks.

-- Jun

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Old 01-21-2012, 02:42 PM   #59
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Aikido doesn't have to be martial.
Thats right, there is also biru waza

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xLahIaaMnU


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Old 01-21-2012, 03:59 PM   #60
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

http://www.bing.com/videos/browse?mk...harepermalink:
This is self defense. Whatever works. Aikido is like that. It is not about fighting or winning. It is about being safe and strong.

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Old 01-21-2012, 04:47 PM   #61
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
http://www.bing.com/videos/browse?mk...harepermalink:
This is self defense. Whatever works. Aikido is like that. It is not about fighting or winning. It is about being safe and strong.
This is not an accurate statement, Mary. Your aikido may not be like that. Most everyone else I meet has different concerns.
Note that while Ueshiba was talking about spirituality..he was traveling about defeating people and talking about exerting his will. We can argue about meaning all day long but planting someone and concussing them before the Emperor and tossing them directly in opposition to their entry angle of attack ....is....exerting your will.
I think you have got it all wrong about what blending really means, and his own words support my view. But we never get anywhere with that and I know we never will, so I want to disagree nicely.
Dan
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Old 01-21-2012, 04:53 PM   #62
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
It all seems wacky till you understand.

Regards.G.
Yo, Graham buddy, do you take offense when I call your stuff wacky? If so, I will stop - no offense intended; just a little friendly jab, that is all...

Best

Greg
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Old 01-21-2012, 05:05 PM   #63
gregstec
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
Thats right, there is also biru waza

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xLahIaaMnU

That is my ultimate training objective - it is true enlightenment

Greg
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Old 01-21-2012, 05:12 PM   #64
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Yo, Graham buddy, do you take offense when I call your stuff wacky? If so, I will stop - no offense intended; just a little friendly jab, that is all...

Best

Greg
Wacky would be considered offensive by most but no I'm not offended. Bemused maybe.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-21-2012, 05:55 PM   #65
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Wacky would be considered offensive by most but no I'm not offended. Bemused maybe.

Regards.G.
Well, I am sorry to have bemused you - first of all, I am not calling you wacky, just some of the stuff you post - different thing altogether Of course, you could very well be wacky, but so are a lot of us at various times - I know I am often; it is what makes us human

You and I are at different ends of the spectrum on most of this stuff, but as I have said in other posts, I will defend your right to say it; I just don't have to agree with it and I may just call it wacky on occasion; that is my freedom of speech right - I have never intentionally posted any attack to an individual and I deplore those that do - you can attack an argument, but never the individual.

I received a PM from Jun warning me of my tone in this thread, and I appreciate his concern to try and keep things civil in the forum without demeaning any individual, but I think he over reacted in this case - I never called you wacky, just some of your stuff, IMO

Greg
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Old 01-21-2012, 07:17 PM   #66
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This is not an accurate statement, Mary. Your aikido may not be like that. Most everyone else I meet has different concerns.
Note that while Ueshiba was talking about spirituality..he was traveling about defeating people and talking about exerting his will. We can argue about meaning all day long but planting someone and concussing them before the Emperor and tossing them directly in opposition to their entry angle of attack ....is....exerting your will.
I think you have got it all wrong about what blending really means, and his own words support my view. But we never get anywhere with that and I know we never will, so I want to disagree nicely.
Dan
Right or wrong. Who cares? That young girl is alive today because of her own courage. She probably can't throw you either but she sure did defend herself.
I give her a big A+.

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Old 01-21-2012, 07:39 PM   #67
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Greg
I agree, but the issue is only brought home when you have a real attacker. None of the bliss bunnies and have ever demonstrated their effectiveness a) outside their own dojo b) up against real trained resistance and will not accept requests to do so.

It is incredible that the people who continue to display these highly cooperative movements have never been challenged within their own communities to display a standard of credibility and show them with real attackers. Within Aikido, when the discussion is narrowed down to them having to defend against a boxer or jujutsu-ka, they all of sudden default to..."That isn't aikido. You don't understand aikido."
Dan
Those same people have a narrow way of defining what Aikido is as well. You can't punch, kick, bite etc. The fact is if you are in a confontation there are no rules. If you can't put away your thoughts of benevolence you are already defeated.

Lyle Laizure
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Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 01-21-2012, 07:48 PM   #68
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
http://www.bing.com/videos/browse?mk...harepermalink:
This is self defense. Whatever works. Aikido is like that. It is not about fighting or winning. It is about being safe and strong.
I agree and would add, that it is doing what is necessary.

Lyle Laizure
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Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 01-21-2012, 07:52 PM   #69
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This is not an accurate statement, Mary. Your aikido may not be like that. Most everyone else I meet has different concerns.
Note that while Ueshiba was talking about spirituality..he was traveling about defeating people and talking about exerting his will. We can argue about meaning all day long but planting someone and concussing them before the Emperor and tossing them directly in opposition to their entry angle of attack ....is....exerting your will.
I think you have got it all wrong about what blending really means, and his own words support my view. But we never get anywhere with that and I know we never will, so I want to disagree nicely.
Dan
I agree it is about imposing your will upon another, from the standpoint that the other person wants to cause me harm and I don't want them too, so I will exert my will in a manner that is sufficient to exert my will over their will, doing whatever is necessary.

Lyle Laizure
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Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:06 PM   #70
kewms
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
In the education process there is explicit and implicit learning. The explicit lessons tend to be easier to pick up on since they tend to take center stage. This is why so many people, perhaps, are so focused on accumulating waza/forms at the expense of principle...and perhaps why the admonition to not focus on throws/waza, but rather to open the attention/awareness to other, possibly more important, factors.
As I said up-thread, threads like this one really have both explicit and implicit (omote and ura? Hmm...) content as well.

On the one hand, we have (again) the argument about what "good aikido" should be able to accomplish.

But on the other hand, there's the question of what teaching methodology best accomplishes that goal.

(IMO, much of the disagreement among schools is really an argument about methodology. Different paths, same mountain.)

I absolutely understand -- and in fact agree with -- the point that effective martial arts should be able to deal with resisting attackers.

But in my experience, new students have no difficulty whatsoever "getting" that. They walk in the door their first day on the mat and they are completely committed to the idea that they MUST be able to throw people. If, for whatever reason, you don't want people to think that way, it can take *years* to change their attitude.

The hard part is getting them to realize that before they can throw someone else, they need to develop better structure, better balance, better movement patterns... even, dare I say it, aiki. Without those things, our hypothetical resisting attacker will be completely unaffected and will unceremoniously drop them on the mat. And you're never going to develop those skills as long as you remain committed to the idea that you MUST throw your partner every. single. time.

Katherine
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Old 01-22-2012, 03:30 AM   #71
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Well, I am sorry to have bemused you - first of all, I am not calling you wacky, just some of the stuff you post - different thing altogether Of course, you could very well be wacky, but so are a lot of us at various times - I know I am often; it is what makes us human

You and I are at different ends of the spectrum on most of this stuff, but as I have said in other posts, I will defend your right to say it; I just don't have to agree with it and I may just call it wacky on occasion; that is my freedom of speech right - I have never intentionally posted any attack to an individual and I deplore those that do - you can attack an argument, but never the individual.

I received a PM from Jun warning me of my tone in this thread, and I appreciate his concern to try and keep things civil in the forum without demeaning any individual, but I think he over reacted in this case - I never called you wacky, just some of your stuff, IMO

Greg
Don't worry about it, It's the referees interpretation of the rules. I got one too.

You ever seen Wacky Races? I often feel like Mutley laughing at Dick Dastardly....Lol.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-22-2012, 06:47 AM   #72
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

I had some conversations about this recently. A couple at a private seminar at Popkins place with a group of Aikido-ka, one at a dinner with a senior practitioner, and then later out of the blue the exact same comment-all the same- from my son yesterday who sometimes read these pages. He was spot on when he said "It's really obvious that they don't understand aiki and connection just by what they write. If they did they wouldn't say what they say."

As was mentioned a few posts back, looking at people move and seeing all the slack in them as they sway to and fro and watching their shoulders and bodies react to grabs, removes them from any meaningful discussion. If you do not know how to connect yourself, your opinion and advice on connection with others is pretty much a waste of time. Aiki begins at home. There must be a unity -aiki- in yourself before you will ever make connection with others meaningful.

If getting out of the way by a timed lead were all there was to it...any kid at the mall would be doing aiki. It is no wonder it remains a mystery to people. It will forever remain a mystery if every time someone stresses you to tense up and use shoulders or your body disconnects as you evade- as demonstrated by so many Japanese Shihan that it is pointless to even point them out. This makes aiki all but impossible to attain.

The question of throwing becomes far more interesting when your movement...your movement...as in within yourself...is so connected that anything you do becomes a compelling shift -to them. One of the tests I do is to touch people and see if no movement-then barely any movement in them can cause a shift in me. Also whether they can totaly cancel out force...standing there.
Then I go on to movement. With a connected body and in/ yo in balance in during movement:
With ukemi it is a throw that happens
With resistance a quick Kuzushi
With fighting, the guy knows he's got nothing and you get quick 1/2 second leads over and over so he is always behind you and you are leading and he can't figure out why.

None of that...none of it..is from timing-IT CAUSES TIMING. Nor is it the type of external evading movement that so many think is aiki. Were you to just understand that you need to work on connection within yourself; your chances and ability to create a compelling aiki connection would improve dramatically, your interactions would be far more fun and most seniors in your own art-even shihan- would look at you as some sort of freak that takes their balance every time you engage. Discussions of throwing would take on new meaning as they would be asking you what the hell you just did to them.

To me all the rest is amateur hour, almost meaningless, outer trappings. More importantly is that it is full speed...in the wrong direction.
"O sensei, why is that no one can do what you do?"
"Because, you do not understand in yo ho."

Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-22-2012 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:31 AM   #73
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Don't worry about it, It's the referees interpretation of the rules. I got one too.

You ever seen Wacky Races? I often feel like Mutley laughing at Dick Dastardly....Lol.

Regards.G.
Well, I am not worried about it - however, I am somewhat 'bemused' by it I enjoy going tit to tat with you on occasion and I like to throw out a good nature jab every once in a while for fun - in this case, I feel like I got reprimanded for calling a school yard friend a goof ball for saying something I thought was way out there - no disrespect intended and apparently none taken; in my book, I see it as no harm, no foul.

I feel like I have been treated like a child in school and now I have a permanent 'Infraction' record that will follow me through life - I wonder if I can get a lawyer and get my record expunged - Lol.

Best

Greg

To all: sorry about the thread drift
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:46 AM   #74
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

O.K. Dan. Nice explanation about what you do and thus understandable how you 'equate' that with what you consider Aikido but relate to Daito Ryu.

That's exactly what I have called Aikijutsu in the past, rightly or wrongly, as I come across charachters doing such things or even explaining such. I suppose nowadays I may call that Daito Ryo. A world of difference to my Aikido or Aikido in my view.

I can give an equally clear explanation of what I look for and how and what I test which I am sure you cannot, by what you say, be aware of. That doesn't make what you do ineffective or wrong but just not Aikido as done by me, which you think you understand.(correct me if you do, but your past explanations of what I do haven't even been close so far)

Sounds like what you used to say about others opinions of what you do doesn't it?

Regards.G.
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:33 AM   #75
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Lot's of interesting discussions here, much of which - I admit - go a bit over my head!

I feel I am a bit in the middle of these two camps here in this thread. I used to sit around thinking "My Aikido is so powerful, I can stop anything. I am so great."

I am not so great. I'm on a path that has no end, and at the end of it I will have progressed as far as I have gone. Maybe I will have a grand revelation. Maybe I will be great, or somewhere along the lines of my teachers. But then I train with my teachers, and what do I hear so often?

"I don't know. I don't know. Maybe tomorrow I will have progressed. Maybe tomorrow I will figure it out."

I think that's a lot of us here. Groping around in this mystery, trying to figure things out. And I think more of us need to admit that. A lot of people saying "Well YOU don't understand. Or those people over THERE don't understand." So much ego! And I've seen it in myself of course, so I don't want to be seen as telling people not to throw stones while I throw stones.

I think a lot of us would be better served with "I don't understand. Help me understand."

Anyway... to the topic at hand.

It's funny - I know I am not good enough yet. Usually when I get into a position where I think "Now is when I must throw" I realize I have messed up somewhere and am in the wrong position to do just that! I'm not talking in kihon waza - I know how to do a "typical" koshinage, but if a technique breaks down, in our dojo we try to complete SOMETHING. And when I try that, often I realize it's broken down so much that I can't throw!

I end up with two problems there, I've realized. One is that things have broken down because I did NOT take center. And if I have not taken center - good luck throwing! It's a lot like the earth trying to throw the sun at that point! ( Also assume that the Earth has also tensed it's muscles somehow. )

The other is that often "throw" means to us that we're projecting someone out somewhere. I am starting to suspect that is a false conception. Sensei is always railing at me to try to understand what Nage is doing, not what uke looks like they're doing. They go flying, so I must throw them! I think the mechanics are much more subtle than that. Often nage is projecting down, and uke must go out to avoid something like landing on their head!
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