Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Columns

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Comment
 
Column Tools
  #26  
Old 01-16-2012, 08:12 PM
Niall Matthews AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
Username: niall
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
 
Japan
Offline
Niall Matthews's Avatar
Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku



connexion by rey
The power used in Aikido is referred to as kokyū ryoku.

Kanshu Sunadomari Sensei

Click here to read the entire column
__________________
we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


aikiweb blog|wordpress blog

Last edited by akiy : 01-16-2012 at 08:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 06:58 AM   #25
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Except for the political stuff (about the emperor, for example), virtually all of the things that Ueshiba said pre-war he also said post-war. Which things, exactly, are you saying are from before and irrelevant?

'True Budo is love.' may be an Aikido statement, but it dates from 1925 - are you saying that everything after 1925 is relevant?

Best,

Chris
I doubt that comes from 1925 but I know he said it after the war.

It is well known that after the war he had changed. Well known, well discussed. Therefore his views were different so how can you think he said the same things? Impossible.

I would even guess that when he got angry and said 'that's not my Aikido' he was frustrated with those still doing it as if it was daito ryu.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 07:12 AM   #26
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
United_States
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post

I would even guess that when he got angry and said 'that's not my Aikido' he was frustrated with those still doing it as if it was daito ryu.

Regards.G.
except according to you he wasn't teaching Daito-ryu by that point and had "changed", well before actually. So how would he be angry at people for doing something he wasn't teaching, wasn't talking about and something that wasn't really discussed within his organization at that time?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 07:50 AM   #27
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
except according to you he wasn't teaching Daito-ryu by that point and had "changed", well before actually. So how would he be angry at people for doing something he wasn't teaching, wasn't talking about and something that wasn't really discussed within his organization at that time?
Quite simple really. See it all the time. People reverting to what they used to do or even thinking, as many still do now, that he must be doing those secret internal daito ryu stuff.

Still in the old time samurai mindset.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 09:42 AM   #28
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 561
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Quite simple really. See it all the time. People reverting to what they used to do or even thinking, as many still do now, that he must be doing those secret internal daito ryu stuff.

Still in the old time samurai mindset.

Regards.G.
And, I wonder why he promoted Gozo Shioda to 9th Dan for not doing "his" aikido. Similarly, Rinjiro Shirata, Minoru Mochizuki and other pre-war students were not doing "his" aikido....that's a bit too far fetch AFAIK.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 10:29 AM   #29
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
United_States
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
And, I wonder why he promoted Gozo Shioda to 9th Dan for not doing "his" aikido. Similarly, Rinjiro Shirata, Minoru Mochizuki and other pre-war students were not doing "his" aikido....that's a bit too far fetch AFAIK.
THere seems to be an ever shifting timeline from when Ueshiba and his aiki changed from the hard and godless Daito-ryu to the soft and loving Ai-ki-do we know today. Good luck nailing that one down.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 11:48 AM   #30
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
And, I wonder why he promoted Gozo Shioda to 9th Dan for not doing "his" aikido. Similarly, Rinjiro Shirata, Minoru Mochizuki and other pre-war students were not doing "his" aikido....that's a bit too far fetch AFAIK.
Nothing to do with pre war, nothing to do with one incident either. No connection.

Regards.G
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 11:50 AM   #31
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
THere seems to be an ever shifting timeline from when Ueshiba and his aiki changed from the hard and godless Daito-ryu to the soft and loving Ai-ki-do we know today. Good luck nailing that one down.
It's not hard, really. After the war. Simple.

Regards G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2012, 12:27 PM   #32
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
This force accumulated in the seika tanden fills every part of the body, like water flowing out that never stops. This force extends from a calm, serene and relaxed body and mind and can be used whenever necessary in any direction. This force is called kokyū ryoku.

Nobuyoshi Tamura Sensei
From the o/p....

Fills every part of the body, like water flowing that never stops. From seika tanden.

From a calm, serene, relaxed body and mind.

You can't find this through intellect. You can't find this through logic. It's not dependent on who said what and when.

Through spirit, yes. I personally call this Hara, for both location and resultant conditions and flow.

Regards.G.

Last edited by akiy : 01-20-2012 at 02:10 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 04:06 PM   #33
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,079
United_States
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I doubt that comes from 1925 but I know he said it after the war.

It is well known that after the war he had changed. Well known, well discussed. Therefore his views were different so how can you think he said the same things? Impossible.
I know that he said it before the war - it's a matter of public record. I can think that he said the same things because I can read...

Anyway, my previous question remains - which things, exactly, are you saying are from before and irrelevant?

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 04:14 PM   #34
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I know that he said it before the war - it's a matter of public record. I can think that he said the same things because I can read...

Anyway, my previous question remains - which things, exactly, are you saying are from before and irrelevant?

Best,

Chris
You're the historian, you tell me. As I said, those things said after the war are Aikido, those which contradict these from earlier are not.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 04:22 PM   #35
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,079
United_States
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
You're the historian, you tell me. As I said, those things said after the war are Aikido, those which contradict these from earlier are not.

Regards.G.
You want me to tell you what you are saying is irrelevant? I don't think so.

Since you have such a clear idea what those things are it should be easy for you to state them.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 04:33 PM   #36
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
You want me to tell you what you are saying is irrelevant? I don't think so.

Since you have such a clear idea what those things are it should be easy for you to state them.

Best,

Chris
Too many. It would take all night and all of tomorrow.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 04:36 PM   #37
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,079
United_States
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Too many. It would take all night and all of tomorrow.

Regards.G.
Pick the top three and cite where he said them pre-war.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 04:57 PM   #38
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Pick the top three and cite where he said them pre-war.

Best,

Chris
I don't store dates and times and places, it's a waste of time. I leave that to intellectuals to intellectualize about.

Regards.G
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 05:09 PM   #39
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,079
United_States
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I don't store dates and times and places, it's a waste of time. I leave that to intellectuals to intellectualize about.

Regards.G
So you don't know what he said or when he said it - just that you disagree with whatever it was you can't remember?

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 05:25 PM   #40
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
So you don't know what he said or when he said it - just that you disagree with whatever it was you can't remember?

Best,

Chris
I know Aikido. I know lots of what he said as Aikido. Knowing is not data.

When you know you don't have to remember.

I feel sorry for all those who carry all that data around in their heads. Cups still full.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 05:56 PM   #41
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

So Graham, Let me see if I got this right.
You're saying
A guy from Japan said stuff you can't read that was translated by a guy who admits he didn't understand many things the Japanese guy said and was joined by a son who fabricated a history that you like.
So now you know things that you have heard and read that may or may not have ever even been actually said by the Japanese guy whom you can't read, but after all that..... you know what you know but you don't know from where or when you know only that you know....something that you can't define.

Now you are telling Chris that because he can read what the Japanese guy actually said and when he said it and can memorize and research it, define it, and explain it, and tell you and has also translated for the Japanese guy's hiers...that it is he who's cup is full and he can't learn?
I think that is a pretty fair review of the exchange. I'm lost. I'm laughing..but I'm lost
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-21-2012 at 06:06 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 07:06 PM   #42
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
So Graham, Let me see if I got this right.
You're saying
A guy from Japan said stuff you can't read that was translated by a guy who admits he didn't understand many things the Japanese guy said and was joined by a son who fabricated a history that you like.
So now you know things that you have heard and read that may or may not have ever even been actually said by the Japanese guy whom you can't read, but after all that..... you know what you know but you don't know from where or when you know only that you know....something that you can't define.

Now you are telling Chris that because he can read what the Japanese guy actually said and when he said it and can memorize and research it, define it, and explain it, and tell you and has also translated for the Japanese guy's hiers...that it is he who's cup is full and he can't learn?
I think that is a pretty fair review of the exchange. I'm lost. I'm laughing..but I'm lost
Dan
That's quite a story. No wonder you're laughing. Very creative, mystical, complicated, oh and nice additions too.

Let me try.....

Once upon a time there was a guy who started a new art called Aikido. He called it 'the true martial art based on universal truth' He said it cannot be anything but a martial art of love. He said many universal things and principles including the true state of Aikido is love and harmony.

Being a very spiritual man and seeing spiritually how the principles of love, ki, life, goodness, non resistance, non-control etc work in the universe and lie and living and being enlightened and pointing out it's not to do with logic and intellect he proceeded to share his new spiritual, compassionate art.

If you want to learn only physical Aikido, to do with just the body, he advised you take up nutrition.
If you want to learn mental Aikido he advised zen or any that rids you of the need for data and thinking and especially the past. To empty your cup. Now if you want to learn Spiritual Aikido he said you must learn what he says now and forget all that went before.

Alas the masses as usual hung on to the past, filled their minds with data and reverted back to past Ryu.

He smiled for he knew they had to go through such processes but meanwhile smiled also as he saw some bright stars emerging in the universe, some who understood, some seeds had taken root. He was happy.

And from Kokyu Ryoku to the heavens and earth Aikido spread.

Now that's a better story.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 07:17 PM   #43
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I know Aikido. I know lots of what he said as Aikido. Knowing is not data.

When you know you don't have to remember.

I feel sorry for all those who carry all that data around in their heads. Cups still full.

Regards.G.
Sounds dangerous to me: Knowledge obfuscates as well as reveals; hence the need to constantly question, both the world around you and yourself. While data doesn't equate to knowledge, it must match up or one of the two is false. Data is fact. Fact is truth. Truth is reality. Not all data are accurate, but insofaras they are, they determine the validity of what one knows.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 03:44 AM   #44
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Sounds dangerous to me: Knowledge obfuscates as well as reveals; hence the need to constantly question, both the world around you and yourself. While data doesn't equate to knowledge, it must match up or one of the two is false. Data is fact. Fact is truth. Truth is reality. Not all data are accurate, but insofaras they are, they determine the validity of what one knows.
Hi Matthew.

Data is a reality. Data put together is knowledge. A bunch of related facts. None of this is truth however.

There's a body of knowledge for every subject you care to look into, you could gather, gather, gather, like a great computer and be called 'intelligent'

That just about covers it. Notice I haven't mentioned understanding, or knowing. They are spiritual matters related to truth.

Different level.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 04:07 AM   #45
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,079
United_States
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
So Graham, Let me see if I got this right.
You're saying
A guy from Japan said stuff you can't read that was translated by a guy who admits he didn't understand many things the Japanese guy said and was joined by a son who fabricated a history that you like.
So now you know things that you have heard and read that may or may not have ever even been actually said by the Japanese guy whom you can't read, but after all that..... you know what you know but you don't know from where or when you know only that you know....something that you can't define.

Now you are telling Chris that because he can read what the Japanese guy actually said and when he said it and can memorize and research it, define it, and explain it, and tell you and has also translated for the Japanese guy's hiers...that it is he who's cup is full and he can't learn?
I think that is a pretty fair review of the exchange. I'm lost. I'm laughing..but I'm lost
Dan
Dan, I thought that Graham's last post pretty much said it all - there's nothing I can add to that.

Writing from Narita Airport - maybe I'll be warm soon...

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 08:37 AM   #46
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,913
Spain
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Different level.

Regards.G.
Level 42?

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 08:38 AM   #47
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Level 42?
Nah, there's only 36 chambers.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 09:26 AM   #48
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 561
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Dan, I thought that Graham's last post pretty much said it all - there's nothing I can add to that.

Writing from Narita Airport - maybe I'll be warm soon...

Best,

Chris
I am not Dan. I think so too. Basically there is nothing much you can add to someone who has suggested that he has reached satori.

Enjoy your trip home.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 10:27 AM   #49
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,913
Spain
Offline
Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

I think he's more into Nirvana... but still I maintain Level 42 were better.

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Comment


Currently Active Users Viewing This Column: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Column Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new columns
You may not post comment
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Column Column Starter Category Comments Last Post
Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza John Driscoll Columns 28 08-04-2013 05:01 PM
Sagawa's Aiki David Orange Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 31 01-20-2012 02:20 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 18 Peter Goldsbury Columns 187 09-08-2011 02:41 PM
Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido Ron Tisdale Training 139 02-11-2010 07:03 AM
9 forms of kokyu sore AikidokaCupu Training 14 09-18-2009 02:46 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:22 AM.



Column powered by GARS 2.1.5 ©2005-2006

vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate