Morihei's changing picture.

Brion Toss wrote: But maybe we can make good use of the incident, as a way to focus on the ways that the two arts differ, and thus get a better idea of their natures, and ours.

Ok, so...in which ways to the two arts differ and why?

Best,

Chris

As usual, this thread has taken the varied twists and turns we have come to expect from the usual suspects with one camp firmly entrenched in the reality of the incident and another in high level philosophical tangents rapidly moving into the twilight zone

Based on the evidence from Stan, it is pretty obvious there was an intentional effort to change reality - much more so than what you may expect from advertizement spin on products or services; that is just not a good comparison for what went on with the changes in this picture.

IMO, the events associated with this picture are much more than simply trying to minimize something like Ueshiba's association with DR - if that was the case, why bother to 'doctor up' an existing photo? why not just find another photo more appropriate and use it. The use of this photo in the way it was used appears to be a deliberate attempt to actually try and eliminate evidence of Ueshiba's relation to DR and not just to minimize it; which is a much more deceitful act than spinning up a mere biased viewed on things.

Just my thoughts - YMMV

Greg

Greg Steckel wrote: As usual, this thread has taken the varied twists and turns we have come to expect from the usual suspects with one camp firmly entrenched in the reality of the incident and another in high level philosophical tangents rapidly moving into the twilight zone Based on the evidence from Stan, it is pretty obvious there was an intentional effort to change reality - much more so than what you may expect from advertizement spin on products or services; that is just not a good comparison for what went on with the changes in this picture. IMO, the events associated with this picture are much more than simply trying to minimize something like Ueshiba's association with DR - if that was the case, why bother to 'doctor up' an existing photo? why not just find another photo more appropriate and use it. The use of this photo in the way it was used appears to be a deliberate attempt to actually try and eliminate evidence of Ueshiba's relation to DR and not just to minimize it; which is a much more deceitful act than spinning up a mere biased viewed on things. Just my thoughts - YMMV Greg

I agree. And so they should.

Regards.G.

Greg Steckel wrote: high level philosophical tangents rapidly moving into the twilight zone Just my thoughts - YMMV Greg

Greg: Great Pun!........ Got a light Dude?

Marc Abrams

Marc Abrams wrote: Greg: Great Pun!........ Got a light Dude? Marc Abrams

"Farm Out" and "Right Arm" dude! - I always got a light

Hey, ain't you supposed to be in Long Island today? I have injuries keeping me away - what about you ?

best

Greg

Graham Christian wrote: I agree. And so they should. Regards.G.

Graham
With your comment above you seem to be indicating that Ueshiba's association and past connection with DR should be cleaned from the history line that is the Aikikai. Could you expound on this if this is what you are saying. Thanks
Gary

Gary Welborn wrote: Graham With your comment above you seem to be indicating that Ueshiba's association and past connection with DR should be cleaned from the history line that is the Aikikai. Could you expound on this if this is what you are saying. Thanks Gary

Certainly I can. Basically by understanding what I have already said. But I will expound on it for you.

I repeat it is not for the organization to promote Aikido as anything other than Aikido.

An organization promotes it's uniqueness.

Historians can show the linkages and history, that's their job.

America presents itself and promotes itself as itself. It flies the flag. It doesn't go on about how it's England or English. It wouldn't show pictures of any great presidents with the union jack flying in the background.

It would say we are cousins and that's about it. Maybe allies or friends. All just minor things it may say.

Historians are the ones who would love to see old pictures of say a president with the union jack flying.

Uniqueness my friend. Every organization, club, foundation, whatever promotes it's uniqueness.

And so it should.

As an Aikidoka I am not in the least bit interested in daito ryu or Takeda or any relationship to such.

Now, separately as a historian or a student (academic) then I am interested.

Thus in this modern age I would go to the internet or some such to look up such things not expect my club or organization to be the place to go for it.

The organization should be 100% organizing and living in here and now.

Do I care about the history of this computer? No, I may care about what type of computer I prefer and want the latest and laugh at those past ones.

Here and now, that's where we do things.

In spare time we can study the past. It can be useful.

Regards.G.

Greg Steckel wrote: "Farm Out" and "Right Arm" dude! - I always got a light Hey, ain't you supposed to be in Long Island today? I have injuries keeping me away - what about you ? best Greg

My Bad! I was so crazed at the end of last year that we scheduled my 5th year anniversary celebration dinner for the dojo this weekend and I had Dan in my other calendar..... Some days, I wish that someone shot me to put me out of my own stupidity..... Anyways, Imaizumi Sensei and his wife are coming here soon and will be spending the weekend at my place, so at least it will be a nice weekend celebration with my teacher. Hope you get better soon!

Best,

Marc

Marc Abrams wrote: My Bad! I was so crazed at the end of last year that we scheduled my 5th year anniversary celebration dinner for the dojo this weekend and I had Dan in my other calendar..... Some days, I wish that someone shot me to put me out of my own stupidity..... Anyways, Imaizumi Sensei and his wife are coming here soon and will be spending the weekend at my place, so at least it will be a nice weekend celebration with my teacher. Hope you get better soon! Best, Marc

Well, sounds like you will still have a good weekend - hopefully I can get up to your next workshop with Dan...

Greg

I do a lot of thinking in pictures, so when I was looking at the series of Ueshiba pictures, another picture flashed into my head of Takuma Hisa sitting along side of Takeda Sokaku, freshly brushed Menkyo Kaiden in hand. And then a number of facts added up. Osaka was a "Big" territory for Ueshiba with Asahi being one of his dojo and Takuma being one of his students. Yes, Takeda would show up and "take over" for periods of time, but that had been happening and somehow "managed" for years. At some time, Osaka became a turning point though. Takeda decided to stay and Ueshiba seems to have never gone back . . . to Asahi, Takuma and, of course, Takeda. Within a short period of time Takeda awarded Ueshiba's former student Menkyo Kaiden (a rank that had not previously existed.) Now, Ueshiba's former student Takuma Hisa outranked Ueshiba Morihei in the only art Ueshiba was licensed to teach . . .

So here we have two photo's both proudly taken after the awarding of a Daito Ryu license by an, at once, scorned and embraced Takeda Sokaku. The latter photo in conjunction with the former would threaten, from Ueshiba's perspective, to turn everything he had worked for and achieved on its head and in a manner (using Ueshiba's student) that would be as humiliating as possible to him. Within the "world" of Daito Ryu Ueshiba's nail was decisively knocked down leaving no doubts as to who was the Daito Ryu "hammer."

The Ueshiba's response is not atypical in this type of situation, "I'm not part of your floor to be walked on, and therefore I'm no nail to you, and you're no hammer to me!" This type of response works in Japan as long as one is successful and dominant. (If you succeed you are a hero. If you fail, you are just another treacherous villan destined to live in shame and infamy.) Any overt recognition or substantial crediting of Takeda by Ueshiba would have opened him to the unthinkable judgement that was placed upon him by Takeda. Better to simply play the whole thing down and invest in the success of his own interests. If Ueshiba succeeded in a big way, and he did, any rumblings from the "peanut gallery" would just sound like so many "sour grapes" from an insubstantial sub group that obviously didn't "measure up." As has been pointed out, there undoubtedly are other photos that could have been used in those publications. But it is possible that THAT photo with Ueshiba sitting proudly by an overtly (to those in the know) erased connection to a teacher and hurtful past, may be, via a photograph, a "thumbing of the nose" in response to another photograph taken in the past that overtly (to those in the know) "thumbed its nose" at student who's unilateral actions clearly hurt the teacher. Both photos, while seemingly innocuous to the average onlooker, would send a message written with a "poison pen" to different individuals.

If I'm not mistaken Kisshomaru Ueshiba would have been old enough to be fully cognizant of the goings on of that time and would have an understandably Ueshiba bias about it all I would assume. In fact, he, not being as close to Takeda Sokaku as Ueshiba Morihei was, would probably not have the sympathetic feelings that Morihei likely had, despite events, about his relationship with Sokaku. However, he, Kisshomaru, would be well aware of the players and the stakes involved and would take whatever steps he felt were necessary to preserve the family honor and what he perceived to be the family art.

Well, that's just me "shooting from the hip" again. At least it makes a good story. I find Shioda Gozo's pre-war/post-war roll smack in the middle of Daito Ryu/Aikikai/ and Yoshinkan to be intriguing. Money, politics, and power. Shadow and Light. It all sends my head into a spirally spin!

Christopher Li wrote: Ok, so...in which ways to the two arts differ and why? Best, Chris

This is how threads drift. And the question is a fine one, really deserving of its own thread. Care to start one?
Yours,
Brion

Brion Toss wrote: This is how threads drift. And the question is a fine one, really deserving of its own thread. Care to start one? Yours, Brion

You wanted to discuss it - why don't you start one?

Best,

Chris

Allen Beebe wrote: I do a lot of thinking in pictures, so when I was looking at the series of Ueshiba pictures, another picture flashed into my head of Takuma Hisa sitting along side of Takeda Sokaku, freshly brushed Menkyo Kaiden in hand. And then a number of facts added up. Osaka was a "Big" territory for Ueshiba with Asahi being one of his dojo and Takuma being one of his students. Yes, Takeda would show up and "take over" for periods of time, but that had been happening and somehow "managed" for years. At some time, Osaka became a turning point though. Takeda decided to stay and Ueshiba seems to have never gone back . . . to Asahi, Takuma and, of course, Takeda. Within a short period of time Takeda awarded Ueshiba's former student Menkyo Kaiden (a rank that had not previously existed.) Now, Ueshiba's former student Takuma Hisa outranked Ueshiba Morihei in the only art Ueshiba was licensed to teach . . . So here we have two photo's both proudly taken after the awarding of a Daito Ryu license by an, at once, scorned and embraced Takeda Sokaku. The latter photo in conjunction with the former would threaten, from Ueshiba's perspective, to turn everything he had worked for and achieved on its head and in a manner (using Ueshiba's student) that would be as humiliating as possible to him. Within the "world" of Daito Ryu Ueshiba's nail was decisively knocked down leaving no doubts as to who was the Daito Ryu "hammer." The Ueshiba's response is not atypical in this type of situation, "I'm not part of your floor to be walked on, and therefore I'm no nail to you, and you're no hammer to me!" This type of response works in Japan as long as one is successful and dominant. (If you succeed you are a hero. If you fail, you are just another treacherous villan destined to live in shame and infamy.) Any overt recognition or substantial crediting of Takeda by Ueshiba would have opened him to the unthinkable judgement that was placed upon him by Takeda. Better to simply play the whole thing down and invest in the success of his own interests. If Ueshiba succeeded in a big way, and he did, any rumblings from the "peanut gallery" would just sound like so many "sour grapes" from an insubstantial sub group that obviously didn't "measure up." As has been pointed out, there undoubtedly are other photos that could have been used in those publications. But it is possible that THAT photo with Ueshiba sitting proudly by an overtly (to those in the know) erased connection to a teacher and hurtful past, may be, via a photograph, a "thumbing of the nose" in response to another photograph taken in the past that overtly (to those in the know) "thumbed its nose" at student who's unilateral actions clearly hurt the teacher. Both photos, while seemingly innocuous to the average onlooker, would send a message written with a "poison pen" to different individuals. If I'm not mistaken Kisshomaru Ueshiba would have been old enough to be fully cognizant of the goings on of that time and would have an understandably Ueshiba bias about it all I would assume. In fact, he, not being as close to Takeda Sokaku as Ueshiba Morihei was, would probably not have the sympathetic feelings that Morihei likely had, despite events, about his relationship with Sokaku. However, he, Kisshomaru, would be well aware of the players and the stakes involved and would take whatever steps he felt were necessary to preserve the family honor and what he perceived to be the family art. Well, that's just me "shooting from the hip" again. At least it makes a good story. I find Shioda Gozo's pre-war/post-war roll smack in the middle of Daito Ryu/Aikikai/ and Yoshinkan to be intriguing. Money, politics, and power. Shadow and Light. It all sends my head into a spirally spin!

Well, as you said, it does make for an intriguing story - and it could very well be true - but if it is, it kind of lowers these pillars of Japanese martial arts down to a petty sophomoric and egotistical level - IMO, not something very admirable.

Greg

Humans being human in a society where this sort of dynamic not only thrived but was taken to high levels of "spin."

Chuck Clark wrote: Humans being human in a society where this sort of dynamic not only thrived but was taken to high levels of "spin."

I hear ya, and I do not disagree with your statement, but it does beg the question: What kind of ethical and moral behavior lessons our adopted martial art organization is really teaching us?

Greg

Hi, I recall reading something from Shishida (one reference in the link)

https://sites.google.com/site/fshish...oukokushouroku

that mentions the Aioi as Admiral Takeshita's group, the link above has a note commenting that the decision to split from Daito Ryu was taken by that group. It seems Admiral Takeshita and his interest group has something to do with this story; what was his relationship to Deguchi and Takeda? I have wondered if there were political reasons behind the efforts to rewrite history? It seems "Aioi ryu" was not a family art , it was some sort of affiliated martial art to a political group?

Allen Beebe wrote: I do a lot of thinking in pictures, so when I was looking at the series of Ueshiba pictures, another picture flashed into my head of Takuma Hisa sitting along side of Takeda Sokaku, freshly brushed Menkyo Kaiden in hand. And then a number of facts added up. Osaka was a "Big" territory for Ueshiba with Asahi being one of his dojo and Takuma being one of his students. Yes, Takeda would show up and "take over" for periods of time, but that had been happening and somehow "managed" for years. At some time, Osaka became a turning point though. Takeda decided to stay and Ueshiba seems to have never gone back . . . to Asahi, Takuma and, of course, Takeda. Within a short period of time Takeda awarded Ueshiba's former student Menkyo Kaiden (a rank that had not previously existed.) Now, Ueshiba's former student Takuma Hisa outranked Ueshiba Morihei in the only art Ueshiba was licensed to teach . . .

Allen,

It's also worth pointing out that the Asahi Shimbun, by 1922, was coming under heavy criticism because of its support for constitutional democracy. Though (at most) a pro-business center-left publication by contemporary standards, by the standards of the militarist right, it was dangerously left. As an associate of senior military personnel such as Admiral Takeshita and an aspirant to official position, Ueshiba had to feel some discomfort -- and sense that his opportunities to teach at the nation's military academies might be constricted -- as a result of his concurrent relationship with the Asahi Shimbun.

If we take this into account, it suggests that Ueshiba hit the trifecta on the occasion of Takeda's final visit: he both provided for and freed himself of his troublesome mentor, Takeda; he ended his politically problematic relationship with the Asahi Shimbun in a way that displaces any hint of a political or pecuniary motivation with the tale of the "break" from Takeda; he provided for his students at the Asahi by insuring that his own teacher would take over the position as their instructor.

I would hasten to emphasize that this explanation doesn't eliminate any of the "anxiety of influence" explanations over which DRAJJ and Aikikai sectarian squabbles have gone on for lo these many years, but rather takes them out of the foreground and puts them in the context of the substantive political and economic currents in which Ueshiba was trying to make his way in the Twenties.

Best regards,

FL

Hello Dr. Little ,

It is funny that you should mention this. I was wondering what the Naval vs Army influences on Ueshiba, his thinking, decisions, actions, etc. might have been. If Takeda maintained his Satsuma (Army) connections this might explain Ueshiba's (and Admiral Takeshita's) inclination to separate from Takeda and Co. Clearly Ueshiba had strong Naval connections (and their particular inclinations), but we also know he had connections with the Army (and their particular inclinations) as well. I believe he had Black Dragon connections (as did so many with whom he associated), and another group (Sakura Kai?) is said to have held meetings within the Kobukan. Obviously Ueshiba, and many of his associates were hip deep in the military/political drama of the time. Whether or not that had a primary influence on Takeda & Ueshiba's relationship, I don't know.

I like your insights. Thank you for sharing them!

(BTW, given your studies and inclinations, did you ever run across any information that might indicate exactly what "brand" of Mikkyo Takeda involved himself in?)

Kind regards,
Allen

With all the talk about the dragon being there or not being there, does anybody know what the logo for the Black Dragon Society is? Could it be possible that the dragon kakejiku is there because it was the year of the dragon?

Allen, that is the most interesting explanation I've ever heard for this story.

Thanks.

David

Allen Beebe wrote: I do a lot of thinking in pictures, so when I was looking at the series of Ueshiba pictures, another picture flashed into my head of Takuma Hisa sitting along side of Takeda Sokaku, freshly brushed Menkyo Kaiden in hand. And then a number of facts added up. Osaka was a "Big" territory for Ueshiba with Asahi being one of his dojo and Takuma being one of his students. Yes, Takeda would show up and "take over" for periods of time, but that had been happening and somehow "managed" for years. At some time, Osaka became a turning point though. Takeda decided to stay and Ueshiba seems to have never gone back . . . to Asahi, Takuma and, of course, Takeda. Within a short period of time Takeda awarded Ueshiba's former student Menkyo Kaiden (a rank that had not previously existed.) Now, Ueshiba's former student Takuma Hisa outranked Ueshiba Morihei in the only art Ueshiba was licensed to teach . . . So here we have two photo's both proudly taken after the awarding of a Daito Ryu license by an, at once, scorned and embraced Takeda Sokaku. The latter photo in conjunction with the former would threaten, from Ueshiba's perspective, to turn everything he had worked for and achieved on its head and in a manner (using Ueshiba's student) that would be as humiliating as possible to him. Within the "world" of Daito Ryu Ueshiba's nail was decisively knocked down leaving no doubts as to who was the Daito Ryu "hammer." The Ueshiba's response is not atypical in this type of situation, "I'm not part of your floor to be walked on, and therefore I'm no nail to you, and you're no hammer to me!" This type of response works in Japan as long as one is successful and dominant. (If you succeed you are a hero. If you fail, you are just another treacherous villan destined to live in shame and infamy.) Any overt recognition or substantial crediting of Takeda by Ueshiba would have opened him to the unthinkable judgement that was placed upon him by Takeda. Better to simply play the whole thing down and invest in the success of his own interests. If Ueshiba succeeded in a big way, and he did, any rumblings from the "peanut gallery" would just sound like so many "sour grapes" from an insubstantial sub group that obviously didn't "measure up." As has been pointed out, there undoubtedly are other photos that could have been used in those publications. But it is possible that THAT photo with Ueshiba sitting proudly by an overtly (to those in the know) erased connection to a teacher and hurtful past, may be, via a photograph, a "thumbing of the nose" in response to another photograph taken in the past that overtly (to those in the know) "thumbed its nose" at student who's unilateral actions clearly hurt the teacher. Both photos, while seemingly innocuous to the average onlooker, would send a message written with a "poison pen" to different individuals. If I'm not mistaken Kisshomaru Ueshiba would have been old enough to be fully cognizant of the goings on of that time and would have an understandably Ueshiba bias about it all I would assume. In fact, he, not being as close to Takeda Sokaku as Ueshiba Morihei was, would probably not have the sympathetic feelings that Morihei likely had, despite events, about his relationship with Sokaku. However, he, Kisshomaru, would be well aware of the players and the stakes involved and would take whatever steps he felt were necessary to preserve the family honor and what he perceived to be the family art. Well, that's just me "shooting from the hip" again. At least it makes a good story. I find Shioda Gozo's pre-war/post-war roll smack in the middle of Daito Ryu/Aikikai/ and Yoshinkan to be intriguing. Money, politics, and power. Shadow and Light. It all sends my head into a spirally spin!

Chuck Clark wrote: Humans being human in a society where this sort of dynamic not only thrived but was taken to high levels of "spin."

Over a long time in a small space, with few but carefully chosen words.

Mike Braxton wrote: With all the talk about the dragon being there or not being there, does anybody know what the logo for the Black Dragon Society is? Could it be possible that the dragon kakejiku is there because it was the year of the dragon?

Ueshiba's astrological animal was the dragon, too. And he was sometimes portrayed as a dragon. I have seen a ink painting of him as a dragon and my teacher kept a driftwood "dragon-head" in his kamiza at the front of his dojo. So the dragon painting in the photo could actually represent Ueshiba, himself.

Emblem of: 黒龍会
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_eLiB4XE8ch...kokuryukai.png

I found Fred Little's suggestion of the brushed Dragon possibly referring to a connection to the kokuryukai very intriguing. One thing that came to mind is the fact that the photograph was taken in pre-Kobukan days (the dojo where the kokuryukai held some of their meetings).
In fact, A Life in Aikido suggests the photo to date around 1921 (another source says 1925) and also states that it was taken at the Ueshiba Juku. So, if any connection is to be made, then Ueshiba would have had contact with the group much earlier then the Kobukan period.
Of course, even if we consider a possible connection to not pre-exist Kobukan days, it's highly possible that, if not for mundane reasons, the Dragon was ommited in the Ueshiba biography to obscure any connection.

Then we also have Ueshiba stating (source The Essence of Aikido p. 33) that on December 14, 1940 the kami messenger Saruta-hiko, announced that the Dragon King, Ame-no-murakumo-kuki-samuhara-ryu-o would take posession of Ueshiba's soul.
According to the same source, Ueshiba commissioned artist Joyo Nozawa (google turns up very little on him alas) to paint him as the Dragon King
I can't pinpoint the exact date when the painting was made but a group photograph of the uchideshi of around 1932 (Invincible Warrior p. 113 has a clearer picture but doesn't state a date, Aikido Masters p. 67 however, does) shows the painting hanging in the alcove so it was an early piece of work, incidentally, co-inciding with the time of Ueshiba's involvement to the kokuryukai...

OMG! This just in!

There were Black Dragon Society comic books. AND, they began at about the time of Uesshiba's retirement to Iwama. AND . . . AND . . . the leader of the Black Dragon Society was . . . THE DRAGON KING!

Coincidence? Or . . .

No joke! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_D...ociety_(comics)