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Old 01-09-2012, 07:03 PM   #76
Belt_Up
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
(if you have a mirror in bathroom you can see if really cranking some abdominal and pelvic muscles makes the blood vessels in your neck pop out - fun in the bathroom!)
Aikiweb has the best discussions, I swear.

I don't think they're particularly difficult to learn (if someone manages to turn a little in a VNR, congratulations to them, they now have a forearm/biceps across their throat, which is a tad painful), and they do take effect quite quickly, but I don't think they're quick enough for multiple opponents.

The chap who had the stroke(s) was unlucky, but somehow I don't think a VNR was responsible ("my neck was forced into a compromising position", which the VNR does not do, it's actually strangely comfortable. It sounds more like one was applied and vigorous grappling ensued, which cause the torn artery), but still a good reminder to train safely and actually, you know, take advantage of modern medicine.
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:59 AM   #77
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

personally, in a dojo i would stay away as possibile from any guy's neck - and also in a real fight one needs to be extra cautious: the gap from self defence to murder by a broken neck can be amazingly thin and, most of all, amazingly fast.

By and large I guess we stay away from chokes also for the same reason nage does not throw punches to defend him/herself - we may be supposed to be tough, but with techniques leverages and projections - and also then in a dojo caution is needed: a very bad (ie very good) shiho nage may make a guy fall squarely on his neck.

However, in the line we should not throw punches, in a real situation you can and in case one did not notice, when you're in a shiho nage, you can punch uke's face with his own hand once you've seized it (it just happens to be at the right height), even repeatedly, before you throw him.
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Old 01-12-2012, 09:04 AM   #78
grondahl
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
personally, in a dojo i would stay away as possibile from any guy's neck - and also in a real fight one needs to be extra cautious: the gap from self defence to murder by a broken neck can be amazingly thin and, most of all, amazingly fast.
A clean rear naked choke is easier on the neck than many forms of iriminage. I also think its extremly hard to break the neck of someone that isnt really relaxed.
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Old 01-12-2012, 09:05 AM   #79
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Peter Grndahl wrote: View Post
A clean rear naked choke is easier on the neck than many forms of iriminage. I also think its extremly hard to break the neck of someone that isnt really relaxed.
breaking a neck is never in the intentions - however, the damage you may cause if it happens is so diresome (and the judicial consequences so diresome as well) that my personal suggestion is: if your very same life is not in the line, u stay away from necks.
If you're at a neck, you're threading in kills' grounds.
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:56 AM   #80
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Chokes weren't part of Tomiki Aikido???? Who told you that??? Maybe you should have told Tomiki Shihan that because we did chokes, regularly, and especially from shomen and yokomen attacks. They were taught as judo chokes since Tomiki Shihan was also an 8th Dan in judo as well. There are some Tomiki practioners out there that probably weren't taught chokes. I don't know why you weren't taught chokes but I sure was because more than once I had a sore neck after working with Tomiki Shihan himself.
Chokes should be properly taught so if you want to learn chokes, talk to someone who has a good judo background or get into a judo class. Chokes are not dangerous, you won't pass out if you tap, you aren't going to be damaged and all the other things that are said about chokes. The fear of the unknown will get you everytime. We don't break necks either. You can be choked from any position at any time. Chokes can put someone out in a heartbeat if needed. If you have a fear of chokes, face them in a judo class. Once you understand the chokes and overcome your fear, it's not a big deal. But please, if you have never done a proper choke before and you haven';t been taught by a qualified instructor who knows chokes, don't make all kinds of irrational statements about them. If anyone is in the Tampa Bay area and want to learn chokes, feel free to come by the dojo. We'll teach you properly and you'll see they are a good defense. And I'm not "choking" about it.
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:48 AM   #81
grondahl
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
breaking a neck is never in the intentions - however, the damage you may cause if it happens is so diresome (and the judicial consequences so diresome as well) that my personal suggestion is: if your very same life is not in the line, u stay away from necks.
If you're at a neck, you're threading in kills' grounds.
So no iriminage, kubinage, shomen ate, etc waza either?
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Old 01-13-2012, 05:41 AM   #82
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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And I'm not "choking" about it.
Couldn't have done better myself. I salute you, sir.
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:27 AM   #83
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
breaking a neck is never in the intentions - however, the damage you may cause if it happens is so diresome (and the judicial consequences so diresome as well) that my personal suggestion is: if your very same life is not in the line, u stay away from necks.
If you're at a neck, you're threading in kills' grounds.
We must train very differently. When we practice chokes no one is close to dying.

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Old 01-13-2012, 07:49 AM   #84
Belt_Up
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
breaking a neck is never in the intentions - however, the damage you may cause if it happens is so diresome (and the judicial consequences so diresome as well) that my personal suggestion is: if your very same life is not in the line, u stay away from necks.
If you're at a neck, you're threading in kills' grounds.
That's a strange attitude from someone who, and I quote:

Quote:
am with the Tantra way to initiation, with the ghora (the horrific), with the second path to enlightenment: for that path, you don't get illuminated by cultivating harmony or by removing desire, but by mastering the horrific. It's the path of the charnel grounds, if you ever heard of that.
It is neither better nor worse than the other way: yet, it is just another well established way to attain that goal...some guys have a preference for attaining mastery by confronting the brutal and the unpleasant. In this mindset, you are ready only when you master dread and fear - when all the daemons may come to you threatening you, and yet you're utterly ummoved.

You grow into the tempest - if the tempest, of course, doesn't kill or maims you first (which it has a regrettable tendency to do...).
So do you rock up to your Tantrist training sessions and say, "Right chaps, as per usual we're with the ghora today, path of the charnel grounds, confronting the brutal and the unpleasant, mastering dread and fear, remaining unmoved by the threats of daemons and growing into a tempest, etcetera and oh, yes, don't touch each other's necks."?

Honestly curious.
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Old 01-13-2012, 08:55 AM   #85
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
We must train very differently. When we practice chokes no one is close to dying.
We certainly must "train differently".... we, of course, are always close to dying. This understanding and becoming calm and accepting that each breath is one less is part of learning to really live. In my understanding, this is part of budo practice.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
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Old 01-13-2012, 10:12 AM   #86
kewms
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
We must train very differently. When we practice chokes no one is close to dying.
Um... If you've choked someone out, they are, by definition, close to dying. You've cut off the blood flow to their brain, and they *will* die unless you let go in a timely manner.

Which is not to say that chokes shouldn't be practiced, just that one should respect the seriousness of what one is doing.

Katherine
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Old 01-13-2012, 12:26 PM   #87
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

@Katherine:

A choke can be practiced slowly and carefully so no one is in danger. We don't "choke people out.." We practice chokes as a defense.

@ Chuck...I don't understand what you don't understand. I meant, of course, that we don't almost choke people...please see above. When a person slaps out nage releases.

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Old 01-13-2012, 12:56 PM   #88
Basia Halliop
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

I've never seen chokes practiced to the point of someone actually losing consciousness... We all tap out way before then...
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Old 01-13-2012, 12:58 PM   #89
Belt_Up
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Um... If you've choked someone out, they are, by definition, close to dying. You've cut off the blood flow to their brain, and they *will* die unless you let go in a timely manner.

Which is not to say that chokes shouldn't be practiced, just that one should respect the seriousness of what one is doing.

Katherine
You haven't actually cut off blood supply to the brain, you've merely reduced it. You reduce the amount of blood and therefore oxygen the brain receives. But the majority of the blood flow (and oxygen) carries on unimpeded. There is a rather large safety margin, in terms of time, between the person passing out, and brain damage setting in. Of course you let go as soon as they nod off anyway, just to be safe, if you even take the technique that far.
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Old 01-13-2012, 03:03 PM   #90
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Well, maybe they are correct, but I'd like to see how they explain cases of rolling okuri eri where people got dizzy with just taking the slack of the gi.
Perhaps you would like to design an experiment to answer that research question?

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 01-13-2012, 03:57 PM   #91
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Heck, everyone is close to dying. It is relative. Every minute that passes you are that much closer! I think Chuck is going some where along those lines. Budo is about making you conscious or aware so you live your life accordingly.

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Old 01-13-2012, 05:05 PM   #92
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

@ Mary, I don't remember "not understanding"... but then I'm getting older (thankfully!) My point is, I live and practice in a particular way because I understand that we are all dying with each breath... until we are not.

@ Kevin, sometimes I think those of us that have been in harm's way have experienced one of the greatest lessons possible... What a joy!!!! Gardez sre mon frre.

Chuck Clark
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Old 01-13-2012, 05:30 PM   #93
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

I didn't realize there was a time limit for editing.. so here's the next part of the post above.

Rereading some of these posts, I realize there might be a feeling that to do something "dangerous" we must always go slowly and carefully... etc.

Of course, we must train as safely as possible, but when expertly done, budo waza can be practiced and applied as fast as humans can move. This must be a level of training that you grow into after many years of proper practice between partners that trust each other. At Kagami Biraki this weekend I will see men and women that can go as fast as humans can go with bokkuto and jo in Shinto Muso Ryu kata with no more than an inch or so as kime is reached. An inch between the end of the jo and the other person's eyes for example in answer to full speed and power attacking cuts from the uchi tachi.

In similar fashion, shimewaza can be expertly applied at full speed, full power with no injury in answer to an attack that is full speed and intent. Many shimewaza do not include grasping the keikogi for example. There is no twisting or wrenching of the neck, etc., etc. These descriptions are not braggadocios or boastful... just true. I will say that this level of training is at very high level and isn't done until it can be done with a high expectation of no harm being done even though the risk is high.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
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Old 01-14-2012, 07:25 PM   #94
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Great thread.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 01-14-2012, 08:48 PM   #95
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
In similar fashion, shimewaza can be expertly applied at full speed, full power with no injury in answer to an attack that is full speed and intent. Many shimewaza do not include grasping the keikogi for example. There is no twisting or wrenching of the neck, etc., etc. These descriptions are not braggadocios or boastful... just true. I will say that this level of training is at very high level and isn't done until it can be done with a high expectation of no harm being done even though the risk is high.
Time for a me too post. Many budo techniques end up positional and by that I mean stopping just short of full execution. Those that don't rely on action by uke to make it safe either by taking ukemi or again by positioning. How techniques end up and what compromises are made depend on the skill level and agreement of participants.

Chokes in themselves are no different. There is no need to progress to the point of damage either through wrenching or unconsciousness. The value of taking a choke to completion on rare occasion to see what it feels like is another question (something I favour under controlled circumstance).

Risk is relative.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-14-2012, 10:29 PM   #96
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Hi Peter, it's good to see a post from you. I agree with what you wrote. In the case of shimewaza, when it's done correctly, the effect is there, and when maitta is given, the pressure should be released instantly. I've never seen any damage done when the waza is done correctly. Judoka using the standard shimewaza using the lapels or sleeves of the keikogi in shiai sometimes leave a gi burn, etc. But these are not the type of waza I'm really writing about. I have used these "soft, wiggly" shimewaza in shiai, especially when I weighed 175 pounds and was in the open weight class. I used to really like the big guys that thought overwhelming strength was the thing that determined the outcome. To be honest, it really is strength; however, it's minimum strength working along with the strength of the other person that gets the job done. :- )

Chuck Clark
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Old 01-14-2012, 11:02 PM   #97
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
Hi Peter, it's good to see a post from you. I agree with what you wrote. In the case of shimewaza, when it's done correctly, the effect is there, and when maitta is given, the pressure should be released instantly. I've never seen any damage done when the waza is done correctly. Judoka using the standard shimewaza using the lapels or sleeves of the keikogi in shiai sometimes leave a gi burn, etc. But these are not the type of waza I'm really writing about. I have used these "soft, wiggly" shimewaza in shiai, especially when I weighed 175 pounds and was in the open weight class. I used to really like the big guys that thought overwhelming strength was the thing that determined the outcome. To be honest, it really is strength; however, it's minimum strength working along with the strength of the other person that gets the job done. :- )
I don't know if you remember my trials and tribulation posts when I went for the Judo Shodan but in that particular competition it was all non-gi chokes and ground work. Not at all what you would expect from a aikido guy but hey it worked. Chokes are fascinating and getting into a position where they can be applied against someone who knows whats coming and does not want to get there is a study in itself. Did I mention I love chokes.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-15-2012, 03:37 AM   #98
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

In this clip, Yasuhisa Shioda Kancho uses shime-waza to counter a punch and kick by Nicholas Pettas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...Txe2Btk#t=274s

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
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Old 01-15-2012, 07:17 AM   #99
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

I've seen that video before, and the hadaka jime was effective. At the last as kime was achieved, it looked to me as if the forces were going both in and up into the jaw. That works, but as the video shows it takes a bit longer for the effect to develop. The force going into the jaw is painful and often the uke taps due to pain. If the goal is to get uke to tap, it succeeds with people who will tap.

Chuck Clark
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Old 01-15-2012, 07:21 AM   #100
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I don't know if you remember my trials and tribulation posts when I went for the Judo Shodan but in that particular competition it was all non-gi chokes and ground work. Not at all what you would expect from a aikido guy but hey it worked. Chokes are fascinating and getting into a position where they can be applied against someone who knows whats coming and does not want to get there is a study in itself. Did I mention I love chokes.
Yes, I do remember your posts from that time period. Just remember, there's "aikido guys" and then there's "aikido guys".... and gals also...

Chuck Clark
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