Morihei's changing picture.

Once again we have tag team attacks from Harden and Chris against myself that are insulting in their form and intent. Surely others will jump in soon. Jun, how long will this be allowed? If I addressed these people they way they address me, which I have done in frustration on occasion after tiring of turning the other cheak, I would be reprimanded for doing so. Harden is the primary source of conflicts on these forums and yet he is allowed to stay without correction. Will the community allow him to continue to make these insulting posts against me without end?

Once again we have stating that I don't know what I'm talking about and stating that I'm somehow confused about Saotome Sensei's teachings. If I respond by quoting Saotome Sensei at length then they will attempt to silence me by accusing me of trying to speak for Saotome Sensei, of claiming to be a Shihan, or other devices. I have had long conversations with senior teachers in ASU including Ledyard Sensei whose association Harden continually uses in an effort to dismiss my views. While Ledyard Sensei and I don't agree on everything, I am certain he would express the view that I do know what I am talking about, given that we agree on at least 90% of the views that I express, and the other senior teachers have also assured me that I am presenting Aikido as they understand it and were taught by Saotome Sensei. Harden is in no position to judge my understanding of what Saotome Sensei teaches. And he is not qualified to claim that he knows what Saotome Sensei is doing or teaching. As far as I know Harden doesn't have a Dan rank in anything.

I have repeatedly posted the interview with the Hikitsuchi Sensei, awarded 10th dan from O Sensei who was there before and after the war. He thought highly of Doshu. I know he is ignored in these posts because he completely undermines the claims that are being made. I have at least four sources for the statement that the movements of Aikido mimi the movements of weapons and nature: O Sensei, Doshu, Chiba, Hikitsuchi Sensei, and Saotome Sensei. I have posted the links and quoted from these sources repeatedly. I am backing my statements with source materials. It is not so important whether O Sensei had a certificate to teach weapons. He observed weapons systems. The flow from opening to defense or offense and back again in the sword is very much like the creative nature of Aikido, though somewhat more confined. Saotome did not merely make up the weapons movements that he teaches. He took the things he'd learned and organized them into new kata for teaching Aikido principles, but he got the movements from O Sensei and from some sword training which he had done.

Harden isn't attempting to engage in a real discussion but rather simply to use me as the target of his aggression. So I probably shouldn't respond. When I'm accused of not understanding my teachers or not sourcing my statements then I feel compelled to do so. Anyone else might feel compelled to do so as well.

For the record, I do not agree that Doshu is the villain being described here. I'm with Ledyard Sensei on this one.

You will note it was you...again you. who diverged from the thread in your first post.

While on the subject, as the interview cited above indicates, while many of the techniques of Aikido evolved out of Daito Ru, O Sensei changed them so that in the context of Aikido they were performed in a significantly different manner. In fact we know that O Sensei cautioned us repeatedly not to get too hung up on techniques as Take Muso Aiki transcends technique. Aikido mimics the movement of the sword and other weapons as well as the movements of nature. Modern Aikido owes far less to Daito Ru. So the history is not the history of O Sensei rebranding Daito Ru. It is the history of his creating a new and distinctive art.

What does this have to do with anything related to a picture?In internet ettiquate this is my thread. So stay back on point and can all of the unrelated discussion.

No one is attacking you. Here we are arguing ideas. Your ideas are distinct and out of place from those whom I have met in your organization. Would you prefer me to not mention that? I can do that. If you somehow feel insulted by that- you have my apologies. And for the record you should review the language you have continually used in the past regarding myself and about six other people. I have noted in the past that whenever someone disagrees with you and uses references to you or your teacher or to aikido in general, you plead with Jun that you are being ganged up on and personally attacked. You've done it over and over with several different people. You should take note that you are running to educated budo people who as a group...dissagree with many of your views. That sir, is not our fault or problem. If you want to spear head some poorly developed ideas than do so, but at least own it.

We can solve your dilema of feeling personally attacked by never even addressing you as a person and still make the exact same points. Such as Aikido not being a weapons art.

These days it is rare, and getting rarer year by year to hear people still use the old refrain that aikido is a sword art. It's just simply not true and most people now know it is not historically accurate, provably accurate, and does not have any pedogogy to even make it reasonably accurate.
We can say Ueshiba liked the sword, but you would make a better argument saying that aikido was a bayonet art, since he loved that and had at least some form of formal training in that and they would practice it and he would practice spear as well. But make no mistake there was no lengthy and formal training in any koryu to base your statement that aikido is based on the sword. He would wach others practice legitimate (most likely just omote) koryu forms and pick some things he liked and say In aiki we do it this way. Many of the guys from the early days either previously had or went out and found their own weapons training.... outside of aikido.

The weapons used in aikido are for aikido. Enjoy them, revel in them, just stop confusing what they are to what they are not.
Dan

It just occurred to me.
It is not correct to say;
Aikido is based on sword movement.
It is more accurate to say:
Aiki weapons...are based on Aikido movement
And enjoy their uniqueness.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: I can't find the photo in "The Art of Aikido: Principles and Essential Techniques" (ISBN 4-7700-2945-4) published in 2004, which claims to be originally published in Japanese as Aikido Shintei by Kodansha Ltd, in 1986.

Christopher Li wrote: I haven't really looked at the English version of Aikido Shintei, but it's quite different from the Japanese version - mainly for cost cutting reasons. Best, Chris

The photograph appears on p. 219. The dark background has been extended to cover half the sign, with only the bottom part of the ryuu character (of Daitou ryuu) being visible. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- P A Goldsbury, Professor Emeritus, Hiroshima University

Are we saying that the doctored photo does appear in the 2004 republished English edition on page 219?
Or is the doctored photo on page 219 in the 1986 Japanese edition?

Dan Harden wrote: Are we saying that the doctored photo does appear in the 2004 republished English edition on page 219? Or is the doctored photo on page 219 in the 1986 Japanese edition?

It's 219 in the Japanese edition, I scanned a copy and sent it to Stan. Big black bar over the "Daito" part of the sign.

Best,

Chris

Christopher Li wrote: It's 219 in the Japanese edition, I scanned a copy and sent it to Stan. Big black bar over the "Daito" part of the sign. Best, Chris

Wouldn't it have been interesting to be in the room when someone asked, someone said...
Can you get rid of the Daito ryu Calligraphy? Remove it?
Who would have been motivated to do so?
Who would benefit?
My guess is myth making.
In an era when no one knew and no one cared about Daito ryu-then a small school, why did it even matter?
I think it is the reason they obliterated the Deguchi painting as well.
1. Destroy the source of his aiki-in a picture taken just after his being issued a teaching license for God sake!! What marvelous, uncaring arrogance! The shear balls of not caring what anyone would say! As Ueshiba posed and bragged to his nephew that he was going to FINALLY be a budo teacher in 1922, they erase it, years later. Breathtaking!
2. Remove his omoto underpinning
3. Don't translate his quoting of Chinese internal power axioms (probably well known in certain circles)
Trala...make him an original genius who thought it all up in his own head while talking to the kami.

This was an effort, a conscious choice by more than one man. The decision created marching orders given to a then photo expert who must have had some interesting thoughts going through his own head as he obliterated the signs. But then, there were four versions weren't there? Spanning almost thirty years? Wouldn't that be an interesting interview?

Doshu when did you decide to fabricate a legacy?
Who did you involve?
Was it your idea or you and your dad?

Such effort to erase tracks... Not done in one photo but in countless interviews and the written word by men entrusted around the world.
Until Stan arrives.
Budo...such an interesting place with interesting people and motives. I can't help it, it is just so Japanese. Just imagine if a guy from Chicago tried this...today...what you would all say? The server would crash again.
Dan

This may be a little late - but I have the same 2004 English edition as Demetrio and it only has 176 pages and no subject picture.

Greg

Dan Harden wrote: I think it is the reason they obliterated the Deguchi painting as well. ; 2. Remove his omoto underpinning

It should also be pointed out that Ueshiba was proud of his service in the Russo-Japanese war, and the overt purpose of the Black Dragon Society was to work toward the removal of the Russians from East Asia.

I would suggest that the original inclusion of the picture of a black dragon in a formal portrait taken at the Ueshiba Juku in the Oomoto compound at Ayabe (whether that piece of sumi-e was brushed by Deguchi or not) was originally intended as a visual suggestion that Ueshiba's art (and Deguchi's Oomoto project) was, at a minimum, in sympathy with the goals of the Black Dragon Society, and at a maximum, carried the Black Dragon Society's seal of approval; conversely, its removal from subsequent reprints of the picture was probably carried out in an appropriately cautious attempt to eliminate an obvious visual reference to prior political sentiments and associations on the part of both Ueshiba and Deguchi that clouded the post-war story line regarding both Aikido and Oomoto as "ways of peace."

YMMV.

Best,

FL

Fred Little wrote: It should also be pointed out that Ueshiba was proud of his service in the Russo-Japanese war, and the overt purpose of the Black Dragon Society was to work toward the removal of the Russians from East Asia. I would suggest that the original inclusion of the picture of a black dragon in a formal portrait taken at the Ueshiba Juku in the Oomoto compound at Ayabe (whether that piece of sumi-e was brushed by Deguchi or not) was originally intended as a visual suggestion that Ueshiba's art (and Deguchi's Oomoto project) was, at a minimum, in sympathy with the goals of the Black Dragon Society, and at a maximum, carried the Black Dragon Society's seal of approval; conversely, its removal from subsequent reprints of the picture was probably carried out in an appropriately cautious attempt to eliminate an obvious visual reference to prior political sentiments and associations on the part of both Ueshiba and Deguchi that clouded the post-war story line regarding both Aikido and Oomoto as "ways of peace." YMMV. Best, FL

Something that I hadn't thought of, but makes sense. Thanks Fred.

Best,

Chris

Thanks Fred. Again consistent with a series of calculated and multi-level story telling
Rinjiro Shirata:

Are you still connected with the Omoto religion? No, I'm not. I was involved in Omoto as an amateur. I became involved because my father was involved. Although Ueshiba Sensei was a believer he was completely separate from Omoto and he devoted his life to budo. It is true that Ueshiba Sensei believed in the kamisama (deities) in an Omoto way. However, he practiced the Omoto religion and the secret principles which he learned from Master Deguchi served as the path for the pursuit of his studies of budo.

I find the statement that Ueshiba was completely separate from Omoto and he devoted his life to budo to be indredulous. Simply an amazing revision and distancing from verifed factual evidence to the contrary.

The leaking out of inconsistencies: This was when the local police chief hid Ueshiba from arrest. Again Shirata:

There is a portrait of Ueshiba Sensei which was drawn by Miss Takako Kunigoshi. It is a scroll and Doshu has it at present (p. 43 of the 0-Sensei Memorial Photo Album). It is really a fine work. Through an involved series of events, either last year or the year before, it finally arrived in the hands of Doshu. This has something to do with the second Omoto incident in 1935. At that time Sensei was in Osaka. Kyoto Police Headquarters issued an order to the Osaka Police Headquarters for his arrest because he was a leading member of Omoto. It was a sudden thing but it was known in advance

.
Same interviewee, taking about the same person, two conflicting statements. Actually there are many more that people write off as complexities of a relationship. In my best SNL... Yea, that's it, complexity! It's all very complex.
Reminds me of the interviews with the execs from Goldman Sacs and AIG and Paulson and Geithners origins as company men...later telling stories that were in direct opposition to their prior statements and closing the interviews when it was read back to them. With one of them telling the reporter "These things are too complex for normal people to understand them."
Different Administrations, different players...the same money men; company men, and story lines that are-in the end- amazing machines in motion.

The re-writing of history is a common phenomenon that occurs universally and is not simply an anomaly that can be localized to the Japanese culture and more specifically, to Aikikai itself. To add to Fred's illustration of how another aspect of Aikido history was "re-brushed ," I would like to point out another big example. The following is from the unedited version of Shizuo Imaizumi's interview that was published in the Aikido Journal.

Imaizumi: This interview was offered by you. I would like you to put the following matters in your magazine. I really want to say this fact for a history of Aikido. An author is apt to disclose his real intention in his first published book. For example, if you write a book for the first time, you will write what you really want to disclose. Let me give an example from the first Aikido book, [u]Aikido[u] by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, published in August 1957 by Kowado, Tokyo. Kisshomaru Ueshiba wrote about Koichi Tohei Sensei vividly for his brother-in-law in page 83 of the section 6 of chapter II of Aikido, entitled "what is Aikido" as follows: Tohei, 8th dan, made a voyage for Hawaii from 1953 to 1954, and made an effort to spread Aikido. While he was staying in the USA he participated in an all-American Judo championship held at San Jose together with Mr. Kurisaki, the president of Hawaii Judo Kai. By the request of many people coming there, Tohei took five men all together as his opponents such as Americans and American-born Japanese who were selected among the participants around the United States. Tohei threw them all and this news spread around the world in those days. All of his opponents were over six feet in height and they all were unknown persons to him and thus he became a hero as a result of overmatching five men easily in Aikido techniques. The true value of Aikido went recognized to the general public. In 1955, Tohei went to Hawaii again. He returned to Japan in May 1956 and he became Shihan Bucho or chief instructor of the Hombu dojo...

Imaizumi: In November 1970, after Kisshomaro Ueshiba Sensei became the Second Doshu, he wrote Aikido Nyumon (Introduction to Aikido), published by Tokyo Shoten, Tokyo. When he received this book from the publisher, he gave us a copy with his autograph. In page 249 of Chapter 7 of Aikido Numon, entitled "history and the Present," Ueshiba Sensei wrote about Tohei Sensei just simply as follows: In the United States, Kochi Tohei, Shihan Bucho, took a first step in Hawaii in 1953. Since then, the population of Aikido there increased rapidly...."

By the way, Tohei Sensei had been still Shihan Bucho at that time and Ueshiba Sensei could not erase these sentences from his book. However, in the revised edition of this book later years, Seitsetsu Aikido Kyohan (Detailed Aikido Textbook), this portion has no longer existed.

Imaizumi: Take a look at Kisshomaru Ueshiba Sensei's latest book, Aikido Ichiro (My life in Aikido, publisihed in October 1995 by Shuppan Geijutsusha, Tokyo. This book is the kind of memoirs of the author through a history of Aikido. But this time, I can only find the name of Koichi Tohei Sensei in this book. For example, the name of Tohei Sensei appears several times: In page 79 (as a friend of Tadashi Abe Sensei in a quotation from an article written by a fiction writer named Mr. Kawahara), in page 194 (as one of uchideshi in the Kobukai), and in page 212 (as one of pioneers who went to the foreign countries to spread Aikido). Although there are several Hawaii stories of O'Sensei and the Second Doshu, nobody can find out from this book who took a first step in Hawaii to spread Aikido. Even in the Aikido nempu or a chronological list of a history of Aikido in Appendix (page 288-301), Tohei Sensei's achievement in the United States had been obliterated completely although I could find many matters of no consequence in comparison with Tohei Sensei's first step in Hawaii in 1953. It sounds to me, according to Kisshomaru Ueshiba Sensei's Aikido Ichiro, that a history of Aikido in the United States began almost spontaneously without anyone's effort. Mr. Pranin, what a difference there was among three books by the same authro, Kisshomaru Ueshiba Sensei.

Imaizumi: In conclusion, I have no position to criticize Kisshomaru Ueshiba Sensei becaaue I could become a Shidoin of the Hombu Dojo by his permission. But I no longer belong to either Aikikai nor Ki no Kenkyukai. Therefore, what I can do as the third party is only to show the historical facts by quoting from Ueshiba Sensei's three books. Summing up, Koichi Tohei Sensei was the first person from the Hombu Dojo to spread Aikido in the United States. He went to Hawaii in 1953 for the first time and he built up the foundation of Aikido for the United States people. he became Shihan Bucho or Chief Instructor of the Hobu Dojo after he returned from Hawaii in May 1956. History shows that it was true. These historical facts should not be obliterated from a history of Aikido even after Tohei Sensei had resigned from all jobs he took during his tenure in the Aikikai.

Imaizumi: Now is the age of the internet or international network of computers. People can look for answers to every question they have ever had. They can send messages and documents across the world in a flash. In other words, even if one author tries to hide the historical fact, the other perosons can expose it around the world easily. For example, John Stevens wrote Invincible Warrior, published by Shambhala Publications, Inc., Boston. This book is a pictorial biography of O'Sensei. Take a look at the photograph taken at Hawaii in page 140. Then Mr. Stevens wrote: "(Above) Memorial photograph taken after the dedication ceremony for the Honolulu Aikido dojo on March 11, 1961. Koichi Tohei, the father of Aikido in the United States, sits to Morihei's left..." Seeing is believing. Tohei Sensei is sitting next to O'Sensei in this photograph taken in Hawaii on March 11, 1961. Mr. Stevens wrote Tohei Sensei as the father of Aikido in the United States. Therefore, many Aikidoists from around the world would be able to know the correct history of Aikido regarding this event in Hawaii without relying on Kisshomaru Ueshiba Sensei's latest books that he wrote in Japanese or English. Even if I don't mention about Tohei Sensei's achievements in this magazine, many people will recognize Tohei Sensei as the father of Aikido in the United States through the other publications or the internet. It they know that Kisshomaru Ueshiba Sensei had ignored this fact in his latest Aikido books, they will think it is strange that Ueshiba Sensei had intentionally omitted Tohei Sensei's achievements during his tenure in the Aikikai. A man who intentionally ignores a historical fact may be buried by that history. I believe that a man's true achievements will surface out of the bare facts. A history does not exist to decorate a man's own achievements.

The pattern of attempting to re-write the "official history" of Aikido by the Aikikai has been "outed" by many people. Maybe, just maybe, that organization will understand that simply laying out the facts is the best policy if they want to be respected in terms of honesty and integrity. Otherwise, they will continue to be their own worst enemies in this regards.

Marc Abrams

Dan Harden wrote: Thanks Fred. Again consistent with a series of calculated and multi-level story telling Rinjiro Shirata: I find the statement that Ueshiba was completely separate from Omoto and he devoted his life to budo to be indredulous. Simply an amazing revision and distancing from verifed factual evidence to the contrary. The leaking out of inconsistencies: This was when the local police chief hid Ueshiba from arrest. Again Shirata: Same interviewee, taking about the same person, two conflicting statements. Actually there are many more that people write off as complexities of a relationship. In my best SNL... Yea, that's it, complexity! It's all very complex. Reminds me of the interviews with the execs from Goldman Sacs and AIG and Paulson and Geithners origins as company men...later telling stories that were in direct opposition to their prior statements and closing the interviews when it was read back to them. With one of them telling the reporter "These things are too complex for normal people to understand them." Different Administrations, different players...the same money men; company men, and story lines that are-in the end- amazing machines in motion.

IIRC, this seems to have been the primary cause of the break between Ueshiba and Yoichiro Inoue - who felt that Ueshiba betrayed Omoto-kyo by going into hiding.

Best,

Chris

Marc Abrams wrote: Imaizumi: Take a look at Kisshomaru Ueshiba Sensei's latest book, Aikido Ichiro (My life in Aikido, publisihed in October 1995 by Shuppan Geijutsusha, Tokyo. This book is the kind of memoirs of the author through a history of Aikido. But this time, I can only find the name of Koichi Tohei Sensei in this book. For example, the name of Tohei Sensei appears several times: In page 79 (as a friend of Tadashi Abe Sensei in a quotation from an article written by a fiction writer named Mr. Kawahara), in page 194 (as one of uchideshi in the Kobukai), and in page 212 (as one of pioneers who went to the foreign countries to spread Aikido). Although there are several Hawaii stories of O'Sensei and the Second Doshu, nobody can find out from this book who took a first step in Hawaii to spread Aikido. Even in the Aikido nempu or a chronological list of a history of Aikido in Appendix (page 288-301), Tohei Sensei's achievement in the United States had been obliterated completely although I could find many matters of no consequence in comparison with Tohei Sensei's first step in Hawaii in 1953. It sounds to me, according to Kisshomaru Ueshiba Sensei's Aikido Ichiro, that a history of Aikido in the United States began almost spontaneously without anyone's effort. Mr. Pranin, what a difference there was among three books by the same authro, Kisshomaru Ueshiba Sensei.

That was the one real flaw in what was otherwise a very interesting book.

Needless to say, when Moriteru Doshu visited Hawaii last year there was no mention of Tohei, but there was quite a bit of talk about the times that Kisshomaru spent in Hawaii (which were not insignificant, but later). I'm pretty sure - since I was translating for him .

It's actually a very common Japanese response to an awkward situation - ignore it and pretend that it doesn't exist. Of course, that doesn't make it right - especially since they have to realize that they are no longer dealing only with other Japanese.

Best,

Chris

I think there is a type of arrogance, a We are Japanese and we are Aikido.... sentiment that alows them to remain completely aloof from being exposed. They really do not care. Personally I think the sooner people get that, the better. There are so many westerners who will apologize for them, that it makes it easy for this behavior to not only exist, but to actually see people trip over themselves defending it as a sophisticated cultural norm that is too complex for westerners to understand...and they just pretend it didn't happen.
I didn't post or start the thread for the Japanese. I did it for Westerners to get an understanding of what some of the people and organizations they are getting involved with...are really capable of. As Chris pointed out, it is 2012 and last year the dogma still is in place. If someone can erase people of such importance, what would they do to you, without a second thought?

Dan

Stan added the version of the picture from Aikido Shintei: http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2012/0...tanley-pranin/

Best,

Chris

Christopher Li wrote: It's actually a very common Japanese response to an awkward situation - ignore it and pretend that it doesn't exist. Of course, that doesn't make it right - especially since they have to realize that they are no longer dealing only with other Japanese. Best, Chris

Chris:

That response pattern is common in more cultures than people would be comfortable acknowledging. A similar thing happens in the very religious Jewish communities. When the person is made an outcast, they are considered dead and nobody is suppose to talk about that person from that point forward. The insular nature of those types of communities enables them to only care about what happens inside of that community as paramount to all else. Modern day institutions have to recognize that controlling the message is not as easy as it use to be. The more sophisticated institutions use some very crafty spin doctors to accomplish that task. The less sophisticated ones, like Aikikai, simply end up playing the three monkey game and really look foolish and out of touch.

Regards,

marc abrams

Marc Abrams wrote: Chris: That response pattern is common in more cultures than people would be comfortable acknowledging. A similar thing happens in the very religious Jewish communities. When the person is made an outcast, they are considered dead and nobody is suppose to talk about that person from that point forward. The insular nature of those types of communities enables them to only care about what happens inside of that community as paramount to all else. Modern day institutions have to recognize that controlling the message is not as easy as it use to be. The more sophisticated institutions use some very crafty spin doctors to accomplish that task. The less sophisticated ones, like Aikikai, simply end up playing the three monkey game and really look foolish and out of touch. Regards, marc abrams

Among which is advice given to every CEO by management consultants. Get a foundationally honest spokesperson and lie to them. Use them to spin, so that their inherent credibility shines through. When they get hep to being used, dump them. Get a fresh face who is fundementally honest, and start over.

Ken McGrew: For the record, I do not agree that Doshu is the villain being described here. I'm with Ledyard Sensei on this one.

Incidentally, Stan thinks that Osensei had nothing to do with this stuff. He thinks it is all Kisshomaru. He has other material and thinks that as time goes on he will have the time to publish other material that supports his idea.
Personally, I would love to reread the letter Sokaku sent to Ueshiba via Sato with five questions, starting with "Why are you lying about me?"
There is a string of letters that Kisshomaru had that have never been revealed.
Dan

Dan Harden doesn't know what he is talking about. He doesn't hold Dan rank in any martial art. He hasn't trained with Saotome Sensei but repeatedly claims to know what Sensei is doing and what Sensei believes. I'm not attacking this clueless guy. By the way, I know someone who also trains with his teacher, and this guy says Harden doesn't know what he's talking about. If this guy had a clue he might realize how he undermines himself attacking Aikikai and Doshu in an international forum while teaching at Aikikai affiliated dojos. This is the way that Harden and his friends address me. Will i now be reprimanded when Harden is not? Jun, are we to have a double standard in favor of Harden?

My posts were not off topic. They were to the heart of the matter. The reasons that Harden and others engage in this stuff, the reason he started yet another thread to bash Doshu, is in order to support their agenda. Their agenda includes, as Harden's posts in this thread demonstrate, redefining Aiki in order to propagate his guru status as being able to teach the secret of In Yo Ho. The photo is yet another attempt to do so by aligning himself with Pranin Sensei's efforts to establish that Aikido is really just Daito Ryu. There are a variety of related claims that they repeatedly make in support of their agenda: O Sensei learned the secret of Aiki from Takeda Sensei, the secret of Daito Ryu that O Sensei learned was In Yo Ho, when Takeda Sensei or O Sensei spoke of Aiki what they really meant was In Yo Ho, O Sensei never taught much less taught the secret of Aikido, what we call Aikido is just a shallow game that Doshu cooked up to sell to the masses, Doshu did this because he did not have the secret of In Yo Ho (his own father didn't bother to teach it to his successor), and on and on without end. Never mind all the evidence including direct quotations from O Sensei and so many of those around him that contradict these claims. Never mind that Harden et al. can't provide one example of Takeda Sensei claiming that the secret of Daito Ryu was In Yo HO.

For the record, O Sensei did not say that Takeda Sensei taught him the secret of Aiki or Aikido or In Yo Ho. In fact, he specifically said that this was not the case. He said that Takeda Sensei opened his eyes to Budo, completely undermining the claims that are repeatedly made: http://www.aikidofaq.com/interviews/interviews.html

Back to the photo, when the claim was made that he photo was altered I just took their word for it. Now they say that the shadow was extended to obscure the reference to Daito Ryu. I am suspicious at this point. They need to provide the photos in question for scrutiny. The sun moves shadows. Any photographer would have taken a series of exposures from slightly different angles. What we may be looking at here are different images from the same session with the shadow obscuring some words more in one than the next.

O Sensei, Doshu, Chiba Sensei, Saotome Sensei, Hikitusuchi, and others, repeatedly explained that Aikido movements are based on the movements of the sword as well as the movements of nature and the universe as a whole; not that the movements of the sword in Aikido come from the Aiki of Aikido, as Harden claims without pointing to any sources. This is visible to anyone who understands Aikido. Harden and company don't understand what the Aiki of Aikido is. They continue to view it through the lenses that they are wearing and as such miss the what is in front of them (or they see it and pretend not to). The length of a sword is more than two feet. It is not possible to use a sword in the confines space that Daito Ryu aims for (one tatami). Yes, there are some moves that require less space, but if you cannot do the small space moves all the time for obvious reasons. All the slicing movements of the sword require move space and a flowing body to create power while moving through. You move through as you cut to avoid being cut by your opponent. This is all obvious to the trained eye. Shihonage, for example, quite clearly comes from moving in to cut, as the opponent attacks, turning and cutting a second time. Daito Ryu did this movement in a confined space by utilizing leverage and threatening the joints. This makes sense when you consider a crowded battle field and the objectives of the Samurai in a situation where he might use Shihonage. O Sensei put the flowing version, the sword version, back into open hands. It's really quite simple on this level.

Once again we see Harden claiming that I fail to understand Saotome Sensei's teachings. He does this while claiming that many ASU teachers train with him (I know of three or four out of hundreds) and agree with him. Because he does not agree with me, therefore, he concludes that they would not either, and ultimately that Saotome Sensei would also agree with him. Dan Harden, who doesn't train in Aikido and doesn't train under Saotome Sensei, claims that he knows the teachings of Saotome Sensei better than I. But I am not trying to market myself. I am simply, and sincerely, following the teachings of Saotome Sensei. On the matter of Aikido evolving in a different direction from Daito Ryu Saotome Sensei is very clear:

"There was in the secret teachings of all the rye an essence that was not technique, a perception that hinted at creation instead of destruction, a power that unified rather than separated opposing forces. There was the shadowy promise, unclear and never fully formed, that harmony is the greatest strength. The agony of O Sensei's severe physical training to uncover this secret was small compared with the agony suffered by his spirit. Slowly he began to feel the tug of an elusive idea. He would try to grasp it, but as soon as he concentrated his mind, it slipped away. It was a half-remembered dream shimmering in the shadows, a peripheral vision lost in the focussing" (Harmony of Nature, p. 122)

"Often those with only shallow experience criticize Aikido upon first observation, saying the movement is too soft and too weak, or that it is only a dance. Their world is very narrow, for they are grasping their own image of the martial way and their minds are stopped by the old concepts of struggle and conflict... Their hostility blocks the development of true power" (Harmony of Nature, p. 133).

"O Sensei created the Aikido EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM [my emphasis] to be a natural system that moves with the natural flow of the body rather than against it. Jujutsu has many of the same techniques-such as kotegaeshi, shihonage, and nikyo-but the result is different. The techniques of jujutsu are designed to destroy. The techniques of Aikido are designed to CONTINUE THE PROCESS AND REDIRECT IT INTO THE CREATIVE PATH OF HARMONY [my emphasis] (Harmony of Nature, p. 135).

"[describing Ikkyo] You must see the movement of your partner's center and deal, not with his hand, but with the DIRECTION OF HIS FORCE [my emphasis]... Before contact is made, you should, by YOUR MOVEMENT [my emphasis] and your will, be in control of the attacker's center... DIVERT AND LEAD HIS ENERGY [my emphasis] so that the advantage is your own... You must first connect with the attacking arm BY JOINING ITS DIRECTION [emphasis mine]. (Harmony of Nature, p. 191)

"In an old Jujutsu technique very similar to the shihonage of Aikido, the first movement was a punch to break the ribs. The jujutsu would then pivot under the enemy's arm, barring it access his shoulder. The accompanying twist would separate the shoulder and break the elbow and wrist. The throw itself would probably crust the enemy's skull as his head was driven into the ground... this technique was designed to kill the enemy... When O Sensei organized his training process, he saw his technique through enlightened eyes. He saw the possibility of an even greater POWER THROUGH MORE HARMONIOUS MOVEMENT [emphasis mine], and a way to practice the technique safely WITHOUT RESTRICTING ITS RHYTHM [emphasis mine]... O Sense saw its practice as an opportunity to understand the principles of balance and natural law. And within its movements HE SAW THE ELEGANT RYTHMS OF THE SWORD [emphasis mine]. (Harmoy of Nature, p. 213).

"Although people often get the impression that much of Aikido technique is the refinement of old jujutsu technique, the rhythm and consciousness of Aikido are BASED ON THE MOVEMENT OF THE SWORD, THE SPEAR, AND THE STAFF [emphasis mine]. There is no sharp dividing line between taijutus... and weapons practice in Aikido, for the philosophy and its physical manifestation in the movement are the same. Aikido is a blending of their truths... When you have no sword, you must MOVE AS THOUGH YOU DID [emphasis mine], extending your body and sporty through the sword."(Harmony of Nature, p. 213).

Anyone with the ability to read carefully who is honest will recognize that the things I stated in this thread are completely based on what Saotome Sensei has written. So, Harden, these ASU teachers who agree with you and not with me when it comes to the Aikido of ASU, are you claiming that they reject the things that Saotome Sensei wrote which I have quoted here? Given that I was merely paraphrasing Saotome Sensei, when you say I don't know what I am talking about, you are actually saying that Saotome Sensei does not know what he is talking about. You are welcome to your opinion. As a non-Aikido student your opinion on this matter is your own. For people who train under Saotome Sensei, and in Aikikai for that matter, they are not entitled to reject in a fundamental manner (though Saotome Sensei allows a great deal of freedom in general) his basic teachings. This is transmission from O Sensei through Saotome Sensei to his students (he says so in the book and in person). Those of us who train under Saotome Sensei have an obligation here. Non-ASU members should not be allowed to make statements on behalf of senior ASU teachers that undermine what Saotome Sensei has said. It leave the impression that they agree with him and distorts the teachings of Saotome Sensei, and by transmission, of O Sensei as well.

What does this have to do with a picture?
Listen, take your post and start a separate thread somewhere bashing me. Make it a title that goes after me personally and make sure you use my name so it will be noticed. At least try to get your facts right though. Maybe I will respond/ maybe not.
In the mean time try to collect your thoughts and concentrate on the topic at hand and make some sort of rational argument.
Dan

Ken McGrew wrote: Dan Harden doesn't know what he is talking about. He doesn't hold Dan rank in any martial art. He hasn't trained with Saotome Sensei but repeatedly claims to know what Sensei is doing and what Sensei believes. I'm not attacking this clueless guy. By the way, I know someone who also trains with his teacher, and this guy says Harden doesn't know what he's talking about. If this guy had a clue he might realize how he undermines himself attacking Aikikai and Doshu in an international forum while teaching at Aikikai affiliated dojos. This is the way that Harden and his friends address me. Will i now be reprimanded when Harden is not? Jun, are we to have a double standard in favor of Harden? My posts were not off topic. They were to the heart of the matter. The reasons that Harden and others engage in this stuff, the reason he started yet another thread to bash Doshu, is in order to support their agenda. Their agenda includes, as Harden's posts in this thread demonstrate, redefining Aiki in order to propagate his guru status as being able to teach the secret of In Yo Ho. The photo is yet another attempt to do so by aligning himself with Pranin Sensei's efforts to establish that Aikido is really just Daito Ryu. There are a variety of related claims that they repeatedly make in support of their agenda: O Sensei learned the secret of Aiki from Takeda Sensei, the secret of Daito Ryu that O Sensei learned was In Yo Ho, when Takeda Sensei or O Sensei spoke of Aiki what they really meant was In Yo Ho, O Sensei never taught much less taught the secret of Aikido, what we call Aikido is just a shallow game that Doshu cooked up to sell to the masses, Doshu did this because he did not have the secret of In Yo Ho (his own father didn't bother to teach it to his successor), and on and on without end. Never mind all the evidence including direct quotations from O Sensei and so many of those around him that contradict these claims. Never mind that Harden et al. can't provide one example of Takeda Sensei claiming that the secret of Daito Ryu was In Yo HO. For the record, O Sensei did not say that Takeda Sensei taught him the secret of Aiki or Aikido or In Yo Ho. In fact, he specifically said that this was not the case. He said that Takeda Sensei opened his eyes to Budo, completely undermining the claims that are repeatedly made: http://www.aikidofaq.com/interviews/interviews.html Back to the photo, when the claim was made that he photo was altered I just took their word for it. Now they say that the shadow was extended to obscure the reference to Daito Ryu. I am suspicious at this point. They need to provide the photos in question for scrutiny. The sun moves shadows. Any photographer would have taken a series of exposures from slightly different angles. What we may be looking at here are different images from the same session with the shadow obscuring some words more in one than the next. O Sensei, Doshu, Chiba Sensei, Saotome Sensei, Hikitusuchi, and others, repeatedly explained that Aikido movements are based on the movements of the sword as well as the movements of nature and the universe as a whole; not that the movements of the sword in Aikido come from the Aiki of Aikido, as Harden claims without pointing to any sources. This is visible to anyone who understands Aikido. Harden and company don't understand what the Aiki of Aikido is. They continue to view it through the lenses that they are wearing and as such miss the what is in front of them (or they see it and pretend not to). The length of a sword is more than two feet. It is not possible to use a sword in the confines space that Daito Ryu aims for (one tatami). Yes, there are some moves that require less space, but if you cannot do the small space moves all the time for obvious reasons. All the slicing movements of the sword require move space and a flowing body to create power while moving through. You move through as you cut to avoid being cut by your opponent. This is all obvious to the trained eye. Shihonage, for example, quite clearly comes from moving in to cut, as the opponent attacks, turning and cutting a second time. Daito Ryu did this movement in a confined space by utilizing leverage and threatening the joints. This makes sense when you consider a crowded battle field and the objectives of the Samurai in a situation where he might use Shihonage. O Sensei put the flowing version, the sword version, back into open hands. It's really quite simple on this level. Once again we see Harden claiming that I fail to understand Saotome Sensei's teachings. He does this while claiming that many ASU teachers train with him (I know of three or four out of hundreds) and agree with him. Because he does not agree with me, therefore, he concludes that they would not either, and ultimately that Saotome Sensei would also agree with him. Dan Harden, who doesn't train in Aikido and doesn't train under Saotome Sensei, claims that he knows the teachings of Saotome Sensei better than I. But I am not trying to market myself. I am simply, and sincerely, following the teachings of Saotome Sensei. On the matter of Aikido evolving in a different direction from Daito Ryu Saotome Sensei is very clear: "There was in the secret teachings of all the rye an essence that was not technique, a perception that hinted at creation instead of destruction, a power that unified rather than separated opposing forces. There was the shadowy promise, unclear and never fully formed, that harmony is the greatest strength. The agony of O Sensei's severe physical training to uncover this secret was small compared with the agony suffered by his spirit. Slowly he began to feel the tug of an elusive idea. He would try to grasp it, but as soon as he concentrated his mind, it slipped away. It was a half-remembered dream shimmering in the shadows, a peripheral vision lost in the focussing" (Harmony of Nature, p. 122) "Often those with only shallow experience criticize Aikido upon first observation, saying the movement is too soft and too weak, or that it is only a dance. Their world is very narrow, for they are grasping their own image of the martial way and their minds are stopped by the old concepts of struggle and conflict... Their hostility blocks the development of true power" (Harmony of Nature, p. 133). "O Sensei created the Aikido EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM [my emphasis] to be a natural system that moves with the natural flow of the body rather than against it. Jujutsu has many of the same techniques-such as kotegaeshi, shihonage, and nikyo-but the result is different. The techniques of jujutsu are designed to destroy. The techniques of Aikido are designed to CONTINUE THE PROCESS AND REDIRECT IT INTO THE CREATIVE PATH OF HARMONY [my emphasis] (Harmony of Nature, p. 135). "[describing Ikkyo] You must see the movement of your partner's center and deal, not with his hand, but with the DIRECTION OF HIS FORCE [my emphasis]... Before contact is made, you should, by YOUR MOVEMENT [my emphasis] and your will, be in control of the attacker's center... DIVERT AND LEAD HIS ENERGY [my emphasis] so that the advantage is your own... You must first connect with the attacking arm BY JOINING ITS DIRECTION [emphasis mine]. (Harmony of Nature, p. 191) "In an old Jujutsu technique very similar to the shihonage of Aikido, the first movement was a punch to break the ribs. The jujutsu would then pivot under the enemy's arm, barring it access his shoulder. The accompanying twist would separate the shoulder and break the elbow and wrist. The throw itself would probably crust the enemy's skull as his head was driven into the ground... this technique was designed to kill the enemy... When O Sensei organized his training process, he saw his technique through enlightened eyes. He saw the possibility of an even greater POWER THROUGH MORE HARMONIOUS MOVEMENT [emphasis mine], and a way to practice the technique safely WITHOUT RESTRICTING ITS RHYTHM [emphasis mine]... O Sense saw its practice as an opportunity to understand the principles of balance and natural law. And within its movements HE SAW THE ELEGANT RYTHMS OF THE SWORD [emphasis mine]. (Harmoy of Nature, p. 213). "Although people often get the impression that much of Aikido technique is the refinement of old jujutsu technique, the rhythm and consciousness of Aikido are BASED ON THE MOVEMENT OF THE SWORD, THE SPEAR, AND THE STAFF [emphasis mine]. There is no sharp dividing line between taijutus... and weapons practice in Aikido, for the philosophy and its physical manifestation in the movement are the same. Aikido is a blending of their truths... When you have no sword, you must MOVE AS THOUGH YOU DID [emphasis mine], extending your body and sporty through the sword."(Harmony of Nature, p. 213). Anyone with the ability to read carefully who is honest will recognize that the things I stated in this thread are completely based on what Saotome Sensei has written. So, Harden, these ASU teachers who agree with you and not with me when it comes to the Aikido of ASU, are you claiming that they reject the things that Saotome Sensei wrote which I have quoted here? Given that I was merely paraphrasing Saotome Sensei, when you say I don't know what I am talking about, you are actually saying that Saotome Sensei does not know what he is talking about. You are welcome to your opinion. As a non-Aikido student your opinion on this matter is your own. For people who train under Saotome Sensei, and in Aikikai for that matter, they are not entitled to reject in a fundamental manner (though Saotome Sensei allows a great deal of freedom in general) his basic teachings. This is transmission from O Sensei through Saotome Sensei to his students (he says so in the book and in person). Those of us who train under Saotome Sensei have an obligation here. Non-ASU members should not be allowed to make statements on behalf of senior ASU teachers that undermine what Saotome Sensei has said. It leave the impression that they agree with him and distorts the teachings of Saotome Sensei, and by transmission, of O Sensei as well.

This is Marc Abrams, reporting from Area 51, where the Dynamic and Evil Duo- Dan and Chris are actively planning their conspiracy ......

1) Dan does hold rank in some arts, and a dan rank in at least one art- Would you like to apologize to your international audience or continue displaying a significant lack of knowledge.

2) Dan is not undermining himself at all. You, on the other hand, that is an entirely different story. As a matter of fact, the reason that your student gave for your absence at the Winter ASU camp certainly confirmed predictions. Talk about undermining one's self and not facing your seniors......

3) How do you know that Dan does not know what he is talking about? You have never met him. Your seniors have and clearly talk about Dan not only knowing what he talks about, but can demonstrate it and teach it. Why don't you name the person who says that Dan does not know what he is talking about? It seems like there are more people I have talked to in the ASU who believe that Dan knows what he is talking about and that you do not, than the other way around. Some of those good folks were looking forward to speaking to you at the winter camp. Big shame you couldn't attend.

4) Stanley Pranin has NEVER said that Aikido is really just Daito-Ryu. Would you like to add Stanley Pranin to your list of people you should apologize to?

5) Vast majority of the historical research clearly indicates that the giant leap in O'Sensei's abilities came as a direct result of his learning from Takeda Sensei. If it was not Aiki that he learned, then what was it? Do you have any direct quotes where O'Sensei said that Takeda Sensei did not teach him Aiki, or is this just your opinion?

6) Aikido deriving from traditional schools of swordmanship has been a notion routinely dispelled and has nothing to do with whether or not Dan or others know Aiki or Aikido. That is very different from the understanding that traditional koryu had sections of training that related to hand-to-weapon and hand-to-hand fighting. Those training methodologies were related to the weapons movements, since teaching dissimilar movements would make the transition to different conditions impossible to effectively implement. That is a FAR CRY from Aikido directly deriving itself from "the sword." Keep on believing what you want to believe Ken. It's your hole, enjoy it....

7) You talk about your knowledge in Daito-Ryu and swordsmanship. Would you like to tell us exactly what school of swordsmanship you practice and what branch of Daito-Ryu you practice as well? Or, is that just your opinion based upon the wealth of your experience and knowledge.

8) Your distortions regarding Dan knowing Saotome's teachings is beyond the scope of this thread and bring to bear the question of why you continue to distort what Dan says. Are you aware that you are doing it?

9) Your quote from Saotome Sensei's book (pg. 122) is a little off. I do not believe that he was talking about "rye." That is a grain and is used to make very tasty bread! Did Saotome Sensei do any formal training in a Koryu. Was that quote his belief of what he though O'Sensei went through, or was it his repeating exactly what O'Sensei told him?

10) Your quote from Saotome Sensei's book (pg. 133) sounds like it applies more to you than other posters- Just my opinion of course.

11) Ken, training in any one style does not require anyone to drink the proverbial Kool-Aid and buy hook-line-and sinker, everything that is said and done. It is nice of you to talk about what ASU and Aikikai students should be required to do. Heck, if you attended the Winter Camp for the ASU who knows what you might have learned? I am sure that there are some of your seniors in the ASU who are just itching to get a chance to guide you. Questioning the dedications of your seniors in your own organization is not a path that I would chose to walk down, but then again, enjoy.....

Back to the regularly scheduled program....... Ken, you have been presented with several instances that are clearly documented, that display that the second Doshu did attempt to distort history. Heck, the example I used, used the second Doshu's own words to highlight that fact. You can continue to play the three monkey game as long as you would like. Distorting the words of others, making statements about things that you do not know about, and other maneuvers will not get you any brownie points in the ASU, with Aikikai, or within the larger Aikido community (and beyond). If you want to contribute to the topics, please do so, while staying on topic. If you want to attack people, trying meeting them first to see if maybe they really do know what they are talking about ( and that maybe you do not know what you are talking about).

Marc Abrams

Ken,

There are more books, written by Founder's direct and long time students, than Saotome's "Aikido and the Harmony of Nature". FYI.

Marc Abrams wrote: This is Marc Abrams, reporting from Area 51, where the Dynamic and Evil Duo- Dan and Chris are actively planning their conspiracy ......

Best,

Chris

Mr McGrew
Start a thread such as "The comparative worth of analysis of martial movement relative to the rank of the observer"
Maybe Jun will do it for you and move your off topic posts over there.

At first glance you certainly would seem to have a sound argument huh?
How can this be?
How can a low ranked fellow have any opinions worth listening? I've said as much to several of your arts shihans when they were helpless to do anything to me.
So go ahead and give it whirl.

When you place the new thread, I can use it to ask you some questions. Like;
Why have 14 Shihan from different Aikido organizations come to train with me?
And I will expect from you a rational response.
Why have over seven hundred Aikidoka and Chinese Martial artist come to train with me- many of whom are mid-level ranked teachers themselves with decades of experience?
I will expect a rational response there as well.

I don't want to deal with your continued distortions of what I say and you putting words in my mouth though. I will prefer that you use quotes. So go ahead and get started and maybe we can have a rational discussion....there. Look at it this way. You feel put upon by a group of posters who you think I am in cahoots with, when in many cases of your arguing here I only knew a few people. If you start a new thread questioning the value of my opinions and observations, maybe you can reverse it have people join what you see as "your side" in the ensuing discussion.
Or maybe you will meet dozens of people who outrank you who will staunchly disagree with your assessments. Either way it seems fair?
So lets leave this thread to talking about faked photos and statements.

Dan

Why won't the shihans who come to train with you post on this forum in defense of the things that you are saying about the origins and nature of Aikido?

Where are the quotes of Takeda Sensei describing Aiki as In Yo Ho?

Which of my quotes from Harmony of Nature do you not agree with?

Which of these quotes do the ASU teachers who train with you, in your opinion, not agree with?

Do you continue to claim that I have misrepresented Saotome's teachings, as quoted, in this discussion thread?

Do you have permission to speak for them on this matter (as you often do)? I made the mistake of assuming you did previously, given your statements, but was mistaken at least in some cases.

I will tell you what people have told me about why they train with you when I have permission to do so. When people who train with you contact me, as several have done in private, they immediately ask me not to quote them... so I am honor bound not to do so. Kind of funny that they always speak off the record about why they train with you. I suspect the reasons may not be as you assume.

Dan Harden wrote: Mr McGrew Start a thread such as "The comparative worth of analysis of martial movement relative to the rank of the observer" Maybe Jun will do it for you and move your off topic posts over there. At first glance you certainly would seem to have a sound argument huh? How can this be? How can a low ranked fellow have any opinions worth listening? I've said as much to several of your arts shihans when they were helpless to do anything to me. So go ahead and give it whirl. When you place the new thread, I can use it to ask you some questions. Like; Why have 14 Shihan from different Aikido organizations come to train with me? And I will expect from you a rational response. Why have over seven hundred Aikidoka and Chinese Martial artist come to train with me- many of whom are mid-level ranked teachers themselves with decades of experience? I will expect a rational response there as well. I don't want to deal with your continued distortions of what I say and you putting words in my mouth though. I will prefer that you use quotes. So go ahead and get started and maybe we can have a rational discussion....there. Look at it this way. You feel put upon by a group of posters who you think I am in cahoots with, when in many cases of your arguing here I only knew a few people. If you start a new thread questioning the value of my opinions and observations, maybe you can reverse it have people join what you see as "your side" in the ensuing discussion. Or maybe you will meet dozens of people who outrank you who will staunchly disagree with your assessments. Either way it seems fair? So lets leave this thread to talking about faked photos and statements. Dan

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: Ken, There are more books, written by Founder's direct and long time students, than Saotome's "Aikido and the Harmony of Nature". FYI.

This is what Saito Sensei said about the origins of Aikido:

"Aikido is a martial art. No matter how good one is in judo, if he or she takes a kendo sword and looses against a student, he or she is not a Budoka, but a Judoka. Even as number one in Japan in kendo, if he or she puts on a judogi and is thrown by a student, he or she is a Kendoka and not a Budoka. O'Sensei (The Founder) says, "This is not good."

Everything is a whole, an entirety. That is why in aikido, even if the principle of the sword is formative, all the movements in the body techniques, as well as in the weapons techniques, are entirely similar. That is why weapon techniques are indispensable in aikido. They are a part of it. Some people say aikido is a collection of techniques, but that is not true. How shall I put it? Each of them is contained in the whole. No matter which of the three you take out, bokken, jo, or taijutsu, alone it is not complete aikido. That is why weapons are an especially important part of aikido."

Source: http://aikido-france.net/articles/saito5/

Those of us who actually train in Aikido must get our understanding of Aikido from our teachers, not from non-Aikido practicing individuals.