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Old 01-04-2012, 01:47 PM   #51
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

I've seen people react in different ways. I have had a guys eyes roll in the back of his head, go rigid, (tetanus) and spasm for a few seconds. Most just go limp. I have also had a few come back to life and fight. Alot of folks pick up mentally where they left off even though that moment has passed. Response vary.

In the 2007 European BJJ Championships, I choked a russian guy out, the ref did not see it, the guy did not tap and simply went limp, I let go and he simply came back and kept fighitng! It then took me another two minutes to beat him on points! I have the video somewhere!

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Old 01-05-2012, 08:11 PM   #52
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
There's a good article here I just found surfing around on the topic.

Article on choking in judo by an MD.

FWIW.
I can't see this 'presenting proof' thing catching on, but I hope it does.

Thank you for this, useful article.
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Old 01-05-2012, 09:35 PM   #53
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
I can't see this 'presenting proof' thing catching on, but I hope it does.

Thank you for this, useful article.
Yeah, I know what you mean. The article actually raised a possibility I hadn't considered -- namely the possible involvement of the vagus nerve.

This only became something I know about because our daughter has spontaneously fainted a few times. Usually after standing a while or when she's not feeling well or overheated. We had her checked out and took her to a pediatric neurologist to make sure nothing was wrong. Basically the vagus nerve runs up along the carotid. And part of it's job is communicating a variety of things about the state of many of the body's organs to the brain. One thing that can stimulate the nerve is having blood drawn or massage of the carotid sinus. That in turn can cause vaso-vagal syncope. Or, in other words she was simply prone to fainting when the conditions are correct. Something my mother also had when she was a young woman, or so I'm told.

I'm wondering about this because there's been time I've seen people go night-night *really* fast when someone who really does it well applies it. So I wonder if in some people it's not just the physical stoppage of the blood flow but also involves the stimulation of the vagus nerve which runs right along it (the snaking arms along with the gentle "shaking" movement that some learn). If they are able to stimulate the vagus in some way it would be a very fast reaction.

So hows that for adding speculation on top of good research...

To quote Alice... Curiouser and curiouser...

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Old 01-06-2012, 07:08 AM   #54
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

As part of my training and preparations for advancement, knowing chokes is necessary. In the five years I have been learning Tomiki my Sensei has exposed me early on with the basics of choking, building a resistance, and knowing when to tap out and when to release. The other students and I have never "passed out". I am being taught by a man who learned from Tomiki Shihan himself and put all my trust in my Sensei for teaching us the correct way to do it. We always practice safety first.
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:58 PM   #55
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Yeah, I know what you mean. The article actually raised a possibility I hadn't considered -- namely the possible involvement of the vagus nerve.

...
Herings nerve. Vagus doesn't play a big role here.

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Old 01-07-2012, 08:34 PM   #56
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Did Tomiki teach chokes in the Aikido context - I don't think he did. I can think of only one kata in one of the formal kata series that includes a defence from a choke. You need to learn to apply the choke as uke so I guess you can say they have a place but really chokes are not part of Tomiki's Aikido.

Now that said - I spent a lot of time exploring transitioning into chokes in Himeji. I picked up some chokes in the Judo dojo and was fascinated by them. Also unconventially I practiced going going to ground and continuing randori once there but I think both cases (chokes and ground work) are contrary to the basic idea of Aikido. Once you engage in either your mobility is extremely restricted.

Quote:
Kenneth Hannah wrote: View Post
As part of my training and preparations for advancement, knowing chokes is necessary. In the five years I have been learning Tomiki my Sensei has exposed me early on with the basics of choking, building a resistance, and knowing when to tap out and when to release. The other students and I have never "passed out". I am being taught by a man who learned from Tomiki Shihan himself and put all my trust in my Sensei for teaching us the correct way to do it. We always practice safety first.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-08-2012, 05:09 PM   #57
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Here is the abstract of a very recent (published November 2011) study on the cause of loss of consciousness during Vascular Neck Restraint. I have highlighted the main conclusions of the study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22096121
Quote:
J Appl Physiol. 2011 Nov 17. [Epub ahead of print]
Mechanism of Loss of Consciousness during Vascular Neck Restraint.
Mitchell JR, Roach DE, Tyberg JV, Belenkie I, Sheldon RS.
Source

1University of Calgary.
Abstract

Vascular neck restraint (VNR) is a technique that police officers may employ to control combative individuals. As the mechanism of unconsciousness is not completely understood, we tested the hypothesis that VNR simply compresses the carotid arteries thereby decreasing middle cerebral artery blood flow. Twenty-four healthy police officers (age 354 years) were studied. Heart rate (HR), arterial pressure, rate of change of pressure (dP/dt) and stroke volume (SV) were measured using infrared finger photoplethysmography. Bilateral mean middle cerebral artery flow velocity (MCAVmean) was measured using transcranial Doppler ultrasound. Neck pressure was measured using flat, fluid-filled balloon transducers positioned over both carotid bifurcations. To detect ocular fixation, subjects were asked to focus on a pen that was moved from side to side. VNR was released 1-2 sec after ocular fixation. Ocular fixation occurred in 16 subjects (time 9.50.4 [SEM] sec). Pressures over the R and L carotid arteries were 25722 and 146 18 mmHg, respectively. VNR decreased MCAVmean (R 453 to 84 cm/s; L 532 to 103 cm/s) and SV (924 to 754 ml) (P < 0.001). Mean arterial pressure (MAP), dP/dt and HR did not change significantly. We conclude that the most important mechanism in loss of consciousness was decreased cerebral blood flow caused by carotid artery compression. The small decrease in CO (9.6 to 7.5 L/min) observed would not seem to be important as there was no change in MAP. In addition, with no significant change in HR, ventricular contractility or MAP, the carotid sinus baroreceptor reflex appears to contribute little to the response to VNR.

PMID:
22096121
[PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
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Old 01-08-2012, 05:41 PM   #58
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Well, just to toss something out as an ex-researcher... Studies like that are great however one must also step back and look at a larger picture. What is the question they are trying to answer? In this case it is about what is happening when a police officer applies a "standard" type of choke.

In my experience as taught to police the restraint is quite "crude" compared to how some highly trained people are able to apply something like hadaka jime (and I am not in that group myself either). You will hear stories of those (repeated in this thread as well) who are seemingly able to apply it in a very subtle way that seems to cause unconsciousness to come on faster than otherwise expected. I'll also add my anecdotal observation with myself that one time a very skilled elderly judoka did it to me I had this feeling like "hmmm, he's very gentle" and then I woke up later. My *impression* was that it came on very quickly (too quickly) and possibly without the tunnel vision beforehand. And I'll add I remember him doing the same sort of "jiggling" movement others have mentioned right before I went night-night. However, it is hard to say because, well, who knows what ya miss when you go unconscious...

So... If we assume the choke holds are being done by a police officer with normal officer training I don't think I'd expect anything particularly interesting beyond what they found. So in terms of constructing an experiment the question they answered here was (most likely) that the average police officer is achieving unconsciousness in the subject via directly cutting off blood flow. I would say that's not surprising. The bigger question for me as someone who's experienced it differently a few times is what is happening with some of these highly trained guys with a very subtle technique? Are they getting more? Are they adding some whipped cream and a cherry on top of an otherwise very effective chocolate sundae... Yeah, I'm hungry. I hate diets...

I know I don't have the skill to pull off what I've seen others do. But I can easily choke someone out from a hadaka jime and most anyone can be taught how to do it literally in minutes. The question I'm interested in is whether there is a difference between a "normal" application and some of the highly skilled applications?

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Old 01-08-2012, 05:44 PM   #59
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

And I should add that I'm not saying there is a difference. For all I know the subtlety and gentleness simply creates a different dynamic in terms of the experience on the receiving end. I honestly don't know, but since they did the study looking at the same things obviously there is some reason to consider it a possibility...

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Old 01-08-2012, 06:25 PM   #60
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

It is unfortunate that the method of applying the Vascular Neck Restraint was not described in the abstract (only so much you can say in 250 words!). I would love to read the full-text of the paper.
It would be great to re-run the experiment with the VNR applied by an expert in shime-waza. Perhaps the tell-tale signs of vasovagal syncope associated with the carotid sinus baroreceptor reflex (bradycardia, decrease in mean arterial pressure) would be observed.

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
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Old 01-08-2012, 07:13 PM   #61
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Yeah, well part of this for me is dealing with a daughter who is prone to vasovagal syncope. Quite a scare for us the first time so we ended up getting a lesson on what it was from a pediatric neurologist. A lot less scary in subsequent episodes but it did get me thinking about the idea that so-called sleeper holds might be more subtle than we thought...

It's all good. Well, except my daughter periodically passing out and smashing face first in to a wall or chair. That's not good.

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Old 01-08-2012, 08:49 PM   #62
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Herings nerve. Vagus doesn't play a big role here.
Actually, in cases of vaso-vagal syncope it does (hence, the "vagal"). The branch of the glossopharyngeal nerve to the carotid sinus ("Hering's nerve") carries the signals from the baroreceptors to the brainstem. If the baroreceptors sense increased blood pressure, a signal is sent from the brainstem via the vagus nerve to activate the parasympathetic nervous system to slow the heart (bradycardia).

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasovagal_response
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex_bradycardia

Also, it would be good to resurrect this gem:
http://www.aikiweb.com/techniques/gunther1.html

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:40 PM   #63
Janet Rosen
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

My husband is prone to vasovagal under certain forms of stress and some folks get it from bearing down to move bowels. Total parasympathetic chain: low heart rate, low BP, cold sweat and the potential to faint from the low BP.

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Old 01-08-2012, 10:11 PM   #64
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

It's also amazing just how many males are found dead on the commode by first responsers. The cause of death in the cases I've seen has been attributed to heart attacks and I've never discussed the issue with our medical examiners, but now I'm starting to wonder about the physiology involved in a simple BM.

Michael
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:47 PM   #65
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

This article is mostly about recovery from the incident, but starts with a good explanation of how chokes can go horribly wrong, even for young, healthy athletes:
http://startingstrength.com/articles...ery_peters.pdf

Not a reason not to train chokes, but definitely a reason to take any symptoms you have after being choked very, VERY seriously.

Katherine
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:58 PM   #66
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
This article is mostly about recovery from the incident, but starts with a good explanation of how chokes can go horribly wrong, even for young, healthy athletes:
http://startingstrength.com/articles...ery_peters.pdf

Not a reason not to train chokes, but definitely a reason to take any symptoms you have after being choked very, VERY seriously.

Katherine
Which brings the question full circle - why don't we train for chokes. Technical, moral, historical????

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-09-2012, 08:19 AM   #67
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
This article is mostly about recovery from the incident, ...

Katherine
Well, he's talking about some serious cranking on the head (hence neck) stuff here that cause the original tear. I'm not so sure that this sort of cranking is what most are talking about. There are a lot of throws that involve a hand to the chin turning the head, engaging the neck and using that as a lever point in a movement. Or throwing someone from what most could call a sort of "headlock". That can be very hard on the neck especially if being done by inexperienced people. Or done with too much enthusiasm.

But a rear naked choke, for example, doesn't involve a "crank", twist, or anything like that. If anything it is gentle to the vertebrae. From reading the article it sounds like a rather ferocious twist created the initial tear that resulted in the clot formation and problems arose from there. It wasn't the "choke" per se that precipitated the injury that was simply a "timebomb" waiting to go off, it was a severe cranking of the neck in a more grappling context.

Just trying to keep context here. There are forms of training in some arts that can be very hard on the neck, but those generally aren't actually chokes but are more throws and controls.

Just trying to be clear.

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Old 01-09-2012, 08:49 AM   #68
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

I would think the reason you don't see many chokes trained in aikido is that it is really complicated and imho somewhat unrealistic to position, lock-in, and finish a standing choke.

If you look at most arts that use chokes heavily you will see they are done on the ground. Without a large grappling portion of training, you would be better to skip chokes.

- Don
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Old 01-09-2012, 09:55 AM   #69
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I would think the reason you don't see many chokes trained in aikido is that it is really complicated and imho somewhat unrealistic to position, lock-in, and finish a standing choke.

If you look at most arts that use chokes heavily you will see they are done on the ground. Without a large grappling portion of training, you would be better to skip chokes.
I understand the reasoning here, but I disagree... shimewaza when done properly can be done standing, from all four directions. Success is dependent, as all waza should be in my opinion, on properly applied kuzushi principles, taking the sente and keeping it.

After thought... of course, this really comes down to what brand of aiki practice you're training in and what their practice methods are like. Nothing disparaging intended, by the way... just different strokes for different folks.

Last edited by Chuck Clark : 01-09-2012 at 09:59 AM.

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Old 01-09-2012, 09:59 AM   #70
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
It's also amazing just how many males are found dead on the commode by first responsers. The cause of death in the cases I've seen has been attributed to heart attacks and I've never discussed the issue with our medical examiners, but now I'm starting to wonder about the physiology involved in a simple BM.
The vasovagal response is one thing that can happen as a result of it...that is likely to result in simply feeling terrible or fainting.
The other is that straining to pass stool can raise pressure (if you have a mirror in bathroom you can see if really cranking some abdominal and pelvic muscles makes the blood vessels in your neck pop out - fun in the bathroom!) and create more work for the heart - this is why heart attack and heart surgery patients are always put on stool softeners, to reduce the need to strain - hence the heart attack.

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Old 01-09-2012, 11:07 AM   #71
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
I understand the reasoning here, but I disagree... shimewaza when done properly can be done standing, from all four directions. Success is dependent, as all waza should be in my opinion, on properly applied kuzushi principles, taking the sente and keeping it.

After thought... of course, this really comes down to what brand of aiki practice you're training in and what their practice methods are like. Nothing disparaging intended, by the way... just different strokes for different folks.
I didn't say it couldn't be done, I just said it is much more complicated and much less practical than say dumping them on their butt. I do however agree that with appropriate skill, you can choke a guy from standing. It seems to me however, that aikido was about trimming the superfluous techniques as part of it's creation. While choking is a great balancer on the ground, there are much easier and more efficient ways to balance the situation on your feet. Which is why I think standing chokes are largely ignored in all but the most showy of martial arts.

Again though, just personal opinion.

- Don
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:47 AM   #72
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Ai symbol Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

IMO applying a choke can be can be quick and efficient. I remember attending a seminar given by one of the Gracie guys. There were about 30 of us attending and the instructor has us line up and one by one got choked by him. He did not choke us out, but is was seconds and I was seeing spots. He was quick, soft and smooth. If there had been a confrontation per se, I would have not wanted to continue which is how I believe chokes are used best. In randori I use the sleeper when I am using an Uke as a shield. I dont choke the person out because there is not time and it is not necessary. In instances when I have done this and move on in the randori, that individual is either bent over or on their knees grabbing their throat coughing, not coming after me.....exactly, The odds then just changed in my favor. Effective and very safe. What essentially you are doing as my friend says is, "Giving them something else to think about," I would think that is some street situations that a choke properly executed would be preferable to some of our typical Aikido responses where the attacker may take a header into the sidewalk or a table. In a one on one it may not be my first choice but it is definitely something I want in my tool belt.
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Old 01-09-2012, 12:24 PM   #73
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Don:

I don't disagree with you depending on the context. With experienced grapplers it is truly tough to get one of those in to place. No doubt about it -- they know better than to leave that open and will work *very* hard to make it nearly impossible for you to get. But if one presented itself I'm sure you'd go for it, yes? Easy way out especially if you're up against a noob. So you train in it, yes? You learn it. You may not get to apply it in certain contexts, especially grappling with an experienced opponent. The bellicose drunk in a bar threatening someone else may not be a grappler or may be so impaired that he leaves that open. Hell, I had a very large friend years ago that I considered doing it to because he had about 5 tequila too many and was getting rather agitated with some other very large fella who wasn't in the mood to fight, but clearly would have been able to handle himself. My friend was just standing there being a total ass-hat and it would have been trivial for me to apply it. But I managed to shove him out the door before anything came of it instead.

In other words not all situations are grappling and it may not be an option in most situations anyway. But if the opportunity arises it is a decisive technique.

But no real argument here. I like to learn as much as possible. Whether I will ever have a chance to use it is pretty much irrelevant to me. I like training and learning. Shrug.

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Old 01-09-2012, 01:01 PM   #74
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
Here is the abstract of a very recent (published November 2011) study on the cause of loss of consciousness during Vascular Neck Restraint. I have highlighted the main conclusions of the study.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22096121
Well, maybe they are correct, but I'd like to see how they explain cases of rolling okuri eri where people got dizzy with just taking the slack of the gi.

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Old 01-09-2012, 04:30 PM   #75
Michael Hackett
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Police agents are trained to apply the carotid restraint from standing and often do so. Once you have the arms in place, you step backwards to break the balance and take a knee while continuing to apply the technique. My earlier account describes how that sometimes doesn't work well. We are also trained to apply in a more "grappling" environment too.

Michael
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