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Old 12-15-2011, 04:04 PM   #1776
Belt_Up
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
There are no questions as to to their effectiveness
This is a pretty big assumption on your part. No-one questions the effectiveness of MMA? In every martial arts discussion I've ever heard, on and off line, I've heard every martial art questioned. MMA is not beyond doubt because it's shown on the television.

Quote:
Our avoidence of competition paints us in a bad light.
So we should begin competing because...other people think badly of us? I don't think badly of aikido and aikidoka because we don't compete. I didn't before I started aikido and my view hasn't changed. Like a lot of other threads, all I'm seeing are vast, sweeping generalisations, as if one person's opinions are shared by the majority when it's not necessarily so, and there's no proof. It's bizarre.
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Old 12-15-2011, 04:49 PM   #1777
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
When you picked him up and chucked him, you broke his balance. You may have done it in a very straight forward, brute force kind of way, but it's still the same thing. He didn't end up on the ground by accident.
Yea good point actually. I guess I was actually focusing on a different body mechanic and confused the two issues. Thanks for correcting me!

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Old 12-15-2011, 06:53 PM   #1778
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
This is a pretty big assumption on your part. No-one questions the effectiveness of MMA? In every martial arts discussion I've ever heard, on and off line, I've heard every martial art questioned. MMA is not beyond doubt because it's shown on the television.

So we should begin competing because...other people think badly of us? I don't think badly of aikido and aikidoka because we don't compete. I didn't before I started aikido and my view hasn't changed. Like a lot of other threads, all I'm seeing are vast, sweeping generalisations, as if one person's opinions are shared by the majority when it's not necessarily so, and there's no proof. It's bizarre.
Who cares about online discussion? What are we keyboard warriors or people teaching a martial art? How many professional Thai Boxing, MMA and BJJ instructors are there? How many professional Aikido instructors are there? There are MMA gym opening up in prime locations with loads of very expensive equipment. They have money to throw around, they have more students than they know what to do with and they're expanding. Can we say the same about Aikido? Kinda suggests we're losing the effectiveness argument pretty badly.

Are we churning out 25 year old dan grades with organisations that are well financed and organised enough that they can open up branch gyms and are we popular enough that we can be fairly sure that they'll have a class to teach?

No. You know why? We're keyboard warrioring and talking the talk while they're winning competitions and showing that they can walk the walk. Joe Blogs is watching his TV and he's 17 and he wants to learn a martial art, he's not seeing Aikido. He's not all that interested in the chat on online forums, what he wants to see is people actually demonstrating that they can do things and we're not doing that.

Now if it was any other thing would you listen to the guy who sat in the corner talking about how good his art was an how it was for a higher purpose or would you go to the guy who can actually demonstrate that he can do what he says he can? Right. That's what Joe's thinking too so he heads past the local Aikido dojo in it's church hall, school hall, run down community or sports centre and into the shiney new MMA gym.

Even if we're winning the argument in cyber space we're getting raped in reality. People are voting with their feet and they're voting for the other people and that means our art is dying out.
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:01 PM   #1779
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
When you picked him up and chucked him, you broke his balance. You may have done it in a very straight forward, brute force kind of way, but it's still the same thing. He didn't end up on the ground by accident.
Exactly.

Katherine
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:04 PM   #1780
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Who cares about online discussion? What are we keyboard warriors or people teaching a martial art? How many professional Thai Boxing, MMA and BJJ instructors are there? How many professional Aikido instructors are there? There are MMA gym opening up in prime locations with loads of very expensive equipment. They have money to throw around, they have more students than they know what to do with and they're expanding. Can we say the same about Aikido? Kinda suggests we're losing the effectiveness argument pretty badly.
How "effective" is what's taught at a typical karate or TKD belt-mill McDojo? Those guys seem to be doing pretty well for themselves. Number of students has never had much correlation with the quality of what's being taught.

Katherine
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Old 01-01-2012, 04:38 PM   #1781
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Who cares about online discussion? What are we keyboard warriors or people teaching a martial art? ..... There are MMA gym opening up in prime locations with loads of very expensive equipment. They have money to throw around, they have more students than they know what to do with and they're expanding. Can we say the same about Aikido? Kinda suggests we're losing the effectiveness argument pretty badly.
More like we're losing the marketing battle, and only because it's MMA's time. Since the 1950's, Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, ninjitsu, Aikido when Steven Seagal made his first movies, and now MMA's have had their moments of popularity. Those moments fade leaving good schools behind. But it's not an easy business. Those shiney new MMA schools at prime locations have to pay for prime real estate and expensive equipment. The only ways to hope of breaking even are to have a kid's class and/or a pro shop.

In terms of numbers of students, TKD beats everybody even without a TV show on Spike. Think about that.

Quote:
Are we churning out 25 year old dan grades with organisations that are well financed and organised enough that they can open up branch gyms and are we popular enough that we can be fairly sure that they'll have a class to teach?
The US Aikido Federation has been around for more than 40 years; there seem to be plenty of young-is people at the shodan gradings I've seen at seminars. I don't know how finacially helathy the organization is, but play with the dojo locator for laughs -- there seem to be a lot of them around.

Quote:
No. You know why? We're keyboard warrioring and talking the talk while they're winning competitions and showing that they can walk the walk. Joe Blogs is watching his TV and he's 17 and he wants to learn a martial art, he's not seeing Aikido. He's not all that interested in the chat on online forums, what he wants to see is people actually demonstrating that they can do things and we're not doing that.

Now if it was any other thing would you listen to the guy who sat in the corner talking about how good his art was an how it was for a higher purpose or would you go to the guy who can actually demonstrate that he can do what he says he can? Right. That's what Joe's thinking too so he heads past the local Aikido dojo in it's church hall, school hall, run down community or sports centre and into the shiney new MMA gym.
And after a few years, will Joe stay with his MMA gym? Or will he read up on other MA's and look into other things, including Aikido? Could go either way. But I first found out about Aikido AFTER I started karate when I bought some coffee table books on MMA. We'd have to have a pretty low opinion of Joe Blogs to say he's a generic trogaldyte who will never do anything but MMA once he starts.

Quote:
Even if we're winning the argument in cyber space we're getting raped in reality. People are voting with their feet and they're voting for the other people and that means our art is dying out.
The whos' taking all those 5th kyu tests? If not new people, then who? And if "young people" don't want to do Aikido, then who's joining colleg clubs? Old people with a lot of plastic surgery?

I think your reports of Aikido's death are greatly exaggerated.

"I am not a big fat panda. I am the big fat panda." --Po, Kung Fu Panda
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Old 01-04-2012, 12:37 PM   #1782
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

A couple of points:
1. Aikidoka don't (should not) get into fights. In the unhappy situation that an aikidoka is attacked his chances of successfully defending him/her self is a lot higher than a person with no training.

2. In the event that an Aikidoka should find him/her self in a self defense situation the likelihood of using a core technique (i.e. shianagi, ikyo, etc.) is unimportant. It is the principles of aikido that will serve us under these circumstances. It's not important that an observer would say "hey, that's a nice karate kick." What's important is that you successfully defend yourself. It doesn't have to be pretty.

3. As to the popularity of MMA... So what? From what I've seen MMA is very hard on your body. Train and compete for a few years and then be relegated to an easy chair to look at your trophies. This is cool unless you need to defend yourself and then you are too beat up and arthritic to do anything.
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:14 PM   #1783
Don Nordin
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Tom McIntire wrote: View Post
A couple of points:
1. Aikidoka don't (should not) get into fights. In the unhappy situation that an aikidoka is attacked his chances of successfully defending him/her self is a lot higher than a person with no training.

2. In the event that an Aikidoka should find him/her self in a self defense situation the likelihood of using a core technique (i.e. shianagi, ikyo, etc.) is unimportant. It is the principles of aikido that will serve us under these circumstances. It's not important that an observer would say "hey, that's a nice karate kick." What's important is that you successfully defend yourself. It doesn't have to be pretty.

3. As to the popularity of MMA... So what? From what I've seen MMA is very hard on your body. Train and compete for a few years and then be relegated to an easy chair to look at your trophies. This is cool unless you need to defend yourself and then you are too beat up and arthritic to do anything.
Tom,

thanks for that very concise summary. You said it really well.
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:32 PM   #1784
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Tom McIntire wrote: View Post
A couple of points:
1. Aikidoka don't (should not) get into fights. In the unhappy situation that an aikidoka is attacked his chances of successfully defending him/her self is a lot higher than a person with no training.

2. In the event that an Aikidoka should find him/her self in a self defense situation the likelihood of using a core technique (i.e. shianagi, ikyo, etc.) is unimportant. It is the principles of aikido that will serve us under these circumstances. It's not important that an observer would say "hey, that's a nice karate kick." What's important is that you successfully defend yourself. It doesn't have to be pretty.

3. As to the popularity of MMA... So what? From what I've seen MMA is very hard on your body. Train and compete for a few years and then be relegated to an easy chair to look at your trophies. This is cool unless you need to defend yourself and then you are too beat up and arthritic to do anything.
I'm an aikidoka and my job is fighting bad guys. Police Officers have a job of fighting bad guys too. I disagree. the statement "aikidoka should not get into fights" is a categorical judgement statement. In fact, I'd argue that Aikidoka SHOULD get into fights given the correct circumstances. Engaging people that need to be engaged skillfully to stop bad things from happening is and should be our responsibility as budoka and warriors.

The chances of defending yourself successfully and minimizing damage depends on many factors. Training is one factor for sure, however define "training"? Even with all my years of training I have a real concern and worry about the common street thug with little or no "training". Again a categorical statement which may or may not be true depending on the situation and conditions.

On your #2 point. I would agree for the most part on this one for sure. Actual technique is not improtant. Although, principles don't help you much either. The problem with principles is they are a mental process. What you need is something physical such as a basic structure and fight habits that have been ingrained through realistic training. Without this, you can have all the principle centered training in the world and still not be able to fight. There are many (most) aikidoka that can demonstrate the fundamentals and principles of aikido and budo than me....however, for many, I am not really concerned or question my ability to defeat them in a fight. So, I disagree with your statement concerning the paradigm of principles and typically viewed in aikido. Fighting has more to do with overriding and overwhelming violent action, and very little to do with the understanding of principles. Hence why I am really concerned with the 16 year old street thug that can't demonstrate jack or understand principles but has grown up understanding fighting.

Also disagee with your statement on MMA being hard on your body. My assumption is that you are saying that MMA is hard on your body and Aikido is not. Again, a categorical statement that may be true depending on your training regime, but does not have to be. Frankly, I find that much of what we tend to call aikido is very hard on your body, whereas practiced correctly, MMA training may not be depending on your training and the skill level of your instructor.

A more correct statement would be getting thrown and tossed is hard on your body, regardless of the particular art or methodology you train in. I personally had to stop Judo as it was VERY hard on my body as it typically involves throws, however MMA skills such as striking, kicks, clinch work, and ground grappling, minus the throws are not hard on your body at all. As Aikido typically involves taking your opponent from a standing position to a ground position, I'd actually say in many cases it is actually more hard on your body than most MMA training.

Sorry to be so disagreeable on the subject.

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Old 01-04-2012, 09:51 PM   #1785
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

"Sorry to be so disagreeable on the subject." Kevin Leavitt
Kevin,
No problem. Your perspective is so very different from mine. Very interesting but very different.

Tom
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Old 01-05-2012, 04:47 AM   #1786
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Thanks Tom. there are many different perspectives for sure.

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Old 01-05-2012, 09:30 AM   #1787
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Jun, I hate to ask this after all the recent troubles, but is their BB software that highlights the year in very big type? Maybe this thread wouldn't keep rising from the dead if people knew how old it was. (That's how I go snagged.)

"I am not a big fat panda. I am the big fat panda." --Po, Kung Fu Panda
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Old 01-05-2012, 03:04 PM   #1788
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
Jun, I hate to ask this after all the recent troubles, but is their BB software that highlights the year in very big type? Maybe this thread wouldn't keep rising from the dead if people knew how old it was. (That's how I go snagged.)
I wonder how much of the dislike for this thread has to do with the history of the tone rather than how old it is or the topic covered. I think the effectiveness issue is a valid one, if not an important one.
I had a roomate who enjoyed being a @#$%. After a while even his valid arguments got eclipsed by his "other" behavior. I'd hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater just because that bathwater is full of...unpleasantness.
However, now that I think about it, I do wonder if the archive were to be organized somewhat by topic and was similar to an FAQ (perhaps: Frequently Asserted Quarrels), if that might also lead some of the redundancy "unpleasant" threads like this generate into a more productive avenue.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-06-2012, 09:38 AM   #1789
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I wonder how much of the dislike for this thread has to do with the history of the tone rather than how old it is or the topic covered .....
I think it's mainly the fact that the thread is really, really old.

"I am not a big fat panda. I am the big fat panda." --Po, Kung Fu Panda
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:34 AM   #1790
tarik
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
I think it's mainly the fact that the thread is really, really old.
The most recent posts are not.

In 25+ years of Internet forum browsing and posting, I never understood why people get their panties in a bunch about old threads coming alive and being discussed further. Life is constantly re-hashing many of the same 'tired' old ideas. My blunt answer is usually something along the lines of 'get over it'.

Certainly people posting their comments should make some attempt to 'catch up' on how much is already said, but that's their own lookout.

Best,

Tarik Ghbeish
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MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 01-13-2012, 05:34 PM   #1791
Belt_Up
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Who cares about online discussion?
Er, you do, you're participating in one. If you didn't care, you wouldn't be posting. Also this seems like an attempt at denigrating online discussion, which is particularly rich when posted online, on a martial arts site.

Quote:
How many professional Thai Boxing, MMA and BJJ instructors are there?
I have no idea. Do you? Care to produce any facts?

Quote:
How many professional Aikido instructors are there?
Same again. Do you know? Do you have any proof?

Quote:
There are MMA gym opening up in prime locations with loads of very expensive equipment. They have money to throw around, they have more students than they know what to do with and they're expanding.
Again, facts? Surely you have growth figures, or is this another one of your beliefs? Which, incidentally, prove nothing. The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'. Additional food for thought: all this financial success must come from somewhere, and logic suggests it is the average practitioner paying fees. If you have gyms opening up in prime locations with lots of expensive equipment, this costs a lot more than renting a hall and some mats, so the average practitioner is paying more. To what extent does this prevent people from participating? Of course, you don't know.

Quote:
Can we say the same about Aikido? Kinda suggests we're losing the effectiveness argument pretty badly.
So MMA's financial success means that aikido is not an effective martial art? This simply does not make any sense. Effectiveness is not decided by who brings the most money in.

Quote:
Are we churning out 25 year old dan grades with organisations that are well financed and organised enough that they can open up branch gyms and are we popular enough that we can be fairly sure that they'll have a class to teach?
No facts to support your belief, again.

Quote:
they're winning competitions and showing that they can walk the walk.
Perhaps one day you will think of 'walking the walk' as something more than winning and money.

Quote:
Joe Blogs is watching his TV and he's 17 and he wants to learn a martial art, he's not seeing Aikido.
No, he's seeing boxing, TKD, UFC, etc because they have competitions. We don't (with the exception of the Tomiki aikido). That's all.

Quote:
what he wants to see is people actually demonstrating that they can do things and we're not doing that.
We do demonstrate that we can do things. The difference is, we do it in the dojo, rather than essentially whoring ourselves in front of cameras for money.

Quote:
Now if it was any other thing would you listen to the guy who sat in the corner talking about how good his art was an how it was for a higher purpose or would you go to the guy who can actually demonstrate that he can do what he says he can?
And aikidoka can't do what they say they can, according to...you.

Quote:
Right. That's what Joe's thinking too so he heads past the local Aikido dojo in it's church hall, school hall, run down community or sports centre
I like how being part of the local community, using a communal building or space, is somehow bad. It's inferior to having your own expensive dedicated place.

Quote:
Even if we're winning the argument in cyber space we're getting raped in reality. People are voting with their feet and they're voting for the other people and that means our art is dying out.
Disgusting and inappropriate metaphors aside, do you have any facts to back this up?
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Old 01-13-2012, 06:15 PM   #1792
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
In 25+ years of Internet forum browsing and posting, I never understood why people get their panties in a bunch about old threads coming alive and being discussed further.
When you respond to something that someone said ten years ago, you're not communicating, you're pontificating.
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Old 01-14-2012, 01:55 PM   #1793
tarik
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
When you respond to something that someone said ten years ago, you're not communicating, you're pontificating.
So what? Is not pontificating a form of communication? Certainly it is the norm around here, so why should it be different on an old thread vs. a new one?

Besides which, that is entirely subjective. Take each post on it's own merits and in context.

Best,

Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 01-14-2012, 02:55 PM   #1794
Cyril Landise
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Does jumping rope work in the boxing ring?
If not, then why do boxers do it?
Aikido is a training method.
What you do with the results of your training is your business...and your effectiveness is dependent on many, many other factors besides the training system followed.
My guess is that Aikido training would help most MMA fighters to become better at what they do.
I am better than I was at a lot of things (including fighting) because of my Aikido training.
Personal best is a different kind of winning.
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Old 01-14-2012, 04:21 PM   #1795
Janet Rosen
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
When you respond to something that someone said ten years ago, you're not communicating, you're pontificating.
I think it's a bizarre waste of time and energy to open an old thread in order to post a direct reply to a poster who by date joined and number of posts clearly stopped participating in the forum years ago.

However if a new conversation is sparked (as opposed to continuing to advise a ghost) it's certainly of interest to folks.

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-14-2012, 04:55 PM   #1796
graham christian
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Not the poster, the topic.

Shows the topic is always the most interesting, the most asked question.

Anyone with new thoughts on this topic therefore uses this platform.

Sounds sensible to me.

Regards. G.
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Old 01-14-2012, 11:11 PM   #1797
ToddDJones
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

As a former national sport karate champion, I can assure you that aikido has practical applicability in the ring; I've used its principles in every match since 1977. You have to move beyond the kata-waza of everyday practice though; kata only communicates fundamental concepts. Application requires sponteneity and and adaptation. The art does not fail the adherent. The adherent fails to adapt the art; a Darwinian notion to be sure.

Don't give up! Frustration is the fertlizer for learning. Good luck!

Todd D. Jones
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Old 01-15-2012, 03:54 AM   #1798
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Cyril Landise wrote: View Post
Does jumping rope work in the boxing ring?
If not, then why do boxers do it?
Aikido is a training method.
What you do with the results of your training is your business...and your effectiveness is dependent on many, many other factors besides the training system followed.
My guess is that Aikido training would help most MMA fighters to become better at what they do.
I am better than I was at a lot of things (including fighting) because of my Aikido training.
Personal best is a different kind of winning.
Cyril,

You bring up some very good points and your logic, of course is correct. Sure, jumping rope, lifting weights, running, and even Aikido training methods certainly have application, relevance, and can help with any number of things.

What it really boils down too when you start looking at specific applications, tactics, sports etc, is this one questions: What is the best use of my time to get the maximum amount of benefit to accomplish my goals.

There are so many variables that come into the equation when training. It becomes about priorities, experiences, and availability of assets such as time, equipment, instructors....etc.

So, for example, while I train in aikido and have for the last 15 years or so, AND I find the training very applicable to what I do in the Military, when preparing units and soldiers to go into combat or high risk situations, I have NEVER taught them what would be called "aikido". However, the principles are ingrained in everyday movement and everything I do, so it has definitely made me a better instructor and influences all that I do.

So, yes, i agree with your statement above for sure.

The problem arises really when we have very limited experience or exposure to training, coaching, and/or martial paradigms, methods, and systems. Those that are professionals, coaches, or have recieved training as "elite" athletes understand how things work in the real world and understand that you don't fight, jump, shoot baskets, kick balls with training methodologies. You use them to improve your ability to perform the task, functions required of you for your job or sport.

Aikido certainly can play a part in that process!

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Old 01-15-2012, 03:56 AM   #1799
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I think it's a bizarre waste of time and energy to open an old thread in order to post a direct reply to a poster who by date joined and number of posts clearly stopped participating in the forum years ago.

However if a new conversation is sparked (as opposed to continuing to advise a ghost) it's certainly of interest to folks.
I was the 1000th poster and I simply want to be the 2000th poster. That is all.

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Old 01-15-2012, 10:30 AM   #1800
Cyril Landise
 
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Thumbs up Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Todd Jones wrote: View Post
The art does not fail the adherent. The adherent fails... the art.
Nice quote Todd, well said.
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