Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-15-2011, 05:18 PM   #1
Conrad Gus
 
Conrad Gus's Avatar
Dojo: Victoria Family Aikido
Location: Victoria, BC
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 244
Canada
Offline
Why don't we practice chokes?

I know some groups practice chokes sometimes. I've done a little bit within formal aikido practice. It seems like an effective way to end an encounter and does not have to do any permanent damage to the attacker, so I don't see why they don't pop up more often.

I'm curious why there are so few choke techniques in aikido. Is it for philosophical reasons, practical reasons, or just a historical oddity?

Does anyone have any information or theories?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 05:41 PM   #2
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,816
United_States
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

If you render someone unconscious due to lack of oxygen-carrying blood to the brain, you better be damn sure you can revive them if need be.

(in other words, I expect there's a sad story behind it, OR someone pointed out just how stupid it is to be playing around with chokes unless you really, really know what you're doing)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 05:41 PM   #3
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,919
Spain
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Choking people who is armed/possibily armed is too risky.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 06:39 PM   #4
kaishaku
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 74
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

It's undignified.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 06:51 PM   #5
Belt_Up
Dojo: Dynamic Aikido Nocquet
Location: Hartlepool
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 107
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

I would think, given aikido's roots, where you would pin an opponent and kill them, a choke would be looked at as taking too long?

Quote:
If you render someone unconscious due to lack of oxygen-carrying blood to the brain, you better be damn sure you can revive them if need be.
From what I know, things like the vascular neck restraint are incredibly safe. Judo has used them for decades with no reported deaths.

Linky: http://www.lvrj.com/news/proper-use-...-75766857.html

Last edited by Belt_Up : 12-15-2011 at 06:53 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 06:54 PM   #6
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Ummm..u can practice chokes without actually having to go all the way.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 07:01 PM   #7
Belt_Up
Dojo: Dynamic Aikido Nocquet
Location: Hartlepool
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 107
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

No girls fall for that one any more.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 07:27 PM   #8
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,950
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
No girls fall for that one any more.
????

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 07:49 PM   #9
Belt_Up
Dojo: Dynamic Aikido Nocquet
Location: Hartlepool
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 107
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
without actually having to go all the way.
Was I too subtle?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 08:19 PM   #10
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,209
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

We practice a choking technique.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 08:30 PM   #11
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 994
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
I would think, given aikido's roots, where you would pin an opponent and kill them, a choke would be looked at as taking too long?
That would be my guess. Chokes also seem like they would be a poor choice for a multiple attacker situation.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 11:26 PM   #12
LinTal
Dojo: Aikido Terrey Hills
Location: Sydney
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 120
Australia
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Maybe it's a conflict of philosophy? My understanding is that we aim to restrict movement or repel the opponent damaging them.

'You break it you bought it' kinda thing.

The world changes when you do.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 12:35 AM   #13
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,508
United_States
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Even rarer is the choke done through sutemi waza, as was the specialty of Minoru Mochizuki's yoseikan budo aikido. See here at 3:00, 3:15 and 3:21--all chokes done from sutemi waza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZKrk...eature=related

The choke is a powerful tool and it can be done altogether safely. All our chokes in yoseikan came from judo or from jujutsu and modified by judo's standards of safe practice. We never actually choked one another unconscious but stopped when the chokee tapped out. But choking was a fair option at any time in randori, for any attack that presented the opening. As you can see Washizu Sensei perform these techniques, they can be applied very fast and smoothly for devastating overall effect.

Best.

David

Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
I know some groups practice chokes sometimes. I've done a little bit within formal aikido practice. It seems like an effective way to end an encounter and does not have to do any permanent damage to the attacker, so I don't see why they don't pop up more often.

I'm curious why there are so few choke techniques in aikido. Is it for philosophical reasons, practical reasons, or just a historical oddity?

Does anyone have any information or theories?

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 02:54 AM   #14
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 837
Germany
Online
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

We practice chokes as kihon of irimi nage in suwari waza and hanmi handachi waza.

This same form is kihon of irimi nage and sokumen irimi nage (kokyu ho /sokumen irimi nage) in tanto dori, jo dori and jo nage, tachi dori.

We practice ushiro katate dori kubi shime as a attack on a regular base.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 03:01 AM   #15
Dave de Vos
 
Dave de Vos's Avatar
Dojo: Shoryukai, Breda (aikikai) & Aiki-Budocentrum Breda (yoseikan)
Location: Baarle-Nassau
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 336
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
We practice ushiro katate dori kubi shime as a attack on a regular base.
I remember us doing that last week, ushiro katate dori kubi shime sankyo: http://www.ehow.com/video_4940148_ai...o-defense.html

We have not done this technique where nage gets to choke uke, but it looks interesting: http://www.ehow.com/video_4940218_mu...kubishime.html

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 12-16-2011 at 03:13 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 03:25 AM   #16
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Choking people who is armed/possibily armed is too risky.
Opinions vary



I think Yoseikan does some of the "pass the weapon, step behind them" type things that are amicable to hadaka jime. (Ditto some FMA schools). And hey, it's never a bad idea to have a human shield, right?

Last edited by bob_stra : 12-16-2011 at 03:31 AM. Reason: Can't find a smaller image. Sorry.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 04:02 AM   #17
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,919
Spain
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
We have not done this technique where nage gets to choke uke, but it looks interesting: http://www.ehow.com/video_4940218_mu...kubishime.html
I would not call that a choke but a faint caused by sudden pressure in carotid sinus baroreceptors.

Bob,

Too risky is not the same than impossible. Anyway I would not recommend Feldenkrais approach if it resembles what can be seen in this clip unless there are not other options available.

I'll try to get the book so I can get a more complete picture about his views on choking armed people in a combative environment.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 04:26 AM   #18
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Well, I don't want to get into a too long discussion on Feldenkrais, his work etc. I agree the cited clip is a little unrealistic. (I'm not sure how representative that clip is of Moshe's actual approach, though). However, it bears pointing out that Feldenkrais tested this kind of thing with live weapons, against resisting opponents, so there may be something of value to be mined from that book.

For a more modern take on chokes, grappling against weapons etc, I'd look to ISR Matrix. Unsurprisingly, you can kind of trace ISR back to judo (by way of BJJ / SBGi) too. I think Floro Fighting Systems *might* have some focus on limb tying / passing akin to a two-on-one, armdrag, step around to the back. You could argue that hakada jime is one possible finish from there (assuming you use the takedown hadaka per Feldenkrais cover).

Personally, I think the issue with choking some is that it's too slow. 5-10 seconds can be an eternity. But, as I said, opinions vary, and surely it's better to be behind the guy with the knife then in front of him.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 04:51 AM   #19
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,919
Spain
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
Well, I don't want to get into a too long discussion on Feldenkrais, his work etc. I agree the cited clip is a little unrealistic. (I'm not sure how representative that clip is of Moshe's actual approach, though). However, it bears pointing out that Feldenkrais tested this kind of thing with live weapons, against resisting opponents, so there may be something of value to be mined from that book.
I'm already aware of Feldenkrais' genius. If I get the book I'll give my unworthy (never choked anyone in a battlefield) opinion, but some of the pics in the cover make me cringe.

Quote:
For a more modern take on chokes, grappling against weapons etc, I'd look to ISR Matrix. Unsurprisingly, you can kind of trace ISR back to judo (by way of BJJ / SBGi) too. think Floro Fighting Systems *might* have some focus on limb tying / passing akin to a two-on-one, armdrag, step around to the back. You could argue that hakada jime is one possible finish from there (assuming you use the takedown hadaka per Feldenkrais cover).
Don't know about Floro's work, but ISRM is, from what I've seen, a good system. And I'll add SBGI STAB is very good too, as Dog Bros DLO.

Quote:
Personally, I think the issue with choking some is that it's too slow. 5-10 seconds can be an eternity.
Not counting all the previous work to get there and establish control on the opponent who should be trying to fight back/escape/defend the choke.

Quote:
But, as I said, opinions vary, and surely it's better to be behind the guy with the knife then in front of him.
Sure, but as you have already noticed, usually Aikido chokes imply controlling uke's armed hand. Similar as you can see in Judo Kime no Kata when weapon has been drawn.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 12-16-2011 at 05:02 AM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 04:57 AM   #20
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

I think it is important to learn chokes/strangles, but I agree with what Demetrio said.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
Choking people who is armed/possibily armed is too risky.
Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
Too risky is not the same than impossible.
The picture Bob posted and video Demetrio linked to above are perfect examples of why it probably is too risky to attempt to choke out an armed opponent.

A lot can happen in 3 to 15 seconds, especially with a determined adversary holding a sharp object.

This is probably why the most prevalent choke in aikido (ushiro kubi shime) includes a wrist hold.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 07:14 PM   #21
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Did we lose the rest of the discussion about shimewaza? I hope not, there were several posts that I had wanted to look at again and then the server went down.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 07:20 PM   #22
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,816
United_States
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
I would think, given aikido's roots, where you would pin an opponent and kill them, a choke would be looked at as taking too long?
A choke is not strangulation. Strangulation does not happen quickly; a choke incapacitates and renders unconscious very quickly. Speaking from personal experience, here.

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
From what I know, things like the vascular neck restraint are incredibly safe. Judo has used them for decades with no reported deaths.
Those two sentences are not in agreement. Absence of reported death does not equal "incredibly safe". There are many activities with inherent deadly risk where, for a number of different interconnected reasons, actual deaths are rare or unknown. That does not make these activities safe.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 10:10 PM   #23
Byron Foster
Dojo: Aikikai
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 20
United_States
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Searching google for police choke deaths gets too many hits.

http://judoinfo.com/chokes5.htm There were 16 choke hold deaths by the Los Angeles Police alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokehold

What kind of trade offs do we want to make? Effective technique versus possible harm and death?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 10:56 PM   #24
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Byron Foster wrote: View Post
Searching google for police choke deaths gets too many hits.

http://judoinfo.com/chokes5.htm There were 16 choke hold deaths by the Los Angeles Police alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokehold

What kind of trade offs do we want to make? Effective technique versus possible harm and death?
I think the word choke is inappropriate to Aikido. Why cut off the air, the windpipe? Neck holds would be a better concept, a version of close in iriminage would be just as effective. Learning to hold with a circle too. Lots of ways in Aikido without blocking or cutting off the windpipe.

I would say good practice in Aikido would be to try such positions as would be chokes and find what is more appropriate, less damaging and yet more effective. The way of Aikido no?

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 11:37 PM   #25
Conrad Gus
 
Conrad Gus's Avatar
Dojo: Victoria Family Aikido
Location: Victoria, BC
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 244
Canada
Offline
Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I think the word choke is inappropriate to Aikido. Why cut off the air, the windpipe? Neck holds would be a better concept, a version of close in iriminage would be just as effective. Learning to hold with a circle too. Lots of ways in Aikido without blocking or cutting off the windpipe.
Agreed that the term is misleading, but that's what the BJJ people call it.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Practice Aikido Spiritually ? grasshopper73 General 19 02-04-2008 08:37 AM
My thoughts about my dojo/sensei Mata Anonymous 15 10-26-2007 10:31 AM
aikido practice Edwin Neal General 28 02-07-2006 05:30 PM
Article: Clarity and Self-Delusion in One's Training by George S. Ledyard AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 65 12-24-2005 08:34 AM
Question regarding an incident during early aikido Unregistered Anonymous 37 03-05-2004 07:36 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:13 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate