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Old 12-10-2011, 05:44 AM   #26
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Rethinking the meaning of various phrases in light of "aiki"

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
b) an Omoto Kyo believer. What does " the way of the harmonization of heaven, earth and man." mean to such an individual?
Kami is the spirit which pervades the entire universe, and man is the focus of the workings of heaven and earth. When Kami and man become one, infinite power will become manifest.

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Old 12-10-2011, 06:47 AM   #27
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Rethinking the meaning of various phrases in light of "aiki"

For those who can read Japanese:

Ryuta Kudo and Fumiaki Shishida: The meaning of aiki in Aikido: Focusing on comments made by Morihei Ueshiba and his pupils. Japan J. Phys. Educ. Hlth. Sport Sci. 55: 453-469, December, 2010

Anyhing worth translating for us mere mortals?

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Old 12-10-2011, 09:21 AM   #28
Allen Beebe
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Re: Rethinking the meaning of various phrases in light of "aiki"

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
a) a Martial Artist (Primarily, or at least foundation-ally, a Daito Ryu Martial Artist). What does " the way of the harmonization of heaven, earth and man." mean to such an individual?
Also keeping in mind the various Koryu that Takeda Sokaku studied that might have brought influence on how he "mentally mapped" his experience. Jikishinkage Ryu comes to mind as one of those that, if memory serves, has some Ten Chi Jin nomenclature as well as other attributes that might have been relevant and/or influential on Takeda Sokaku and therefore Daito Ryu.

It is my understanding that Ten Chi Jin was commonly used nomenclature used broadly (reminds me of the Sho Chiku Bai conversations that went way over my head quickly, this one could easily do so as well). However, it is also my understanding that the generally used Ten Chi Jin terms could be used by various groups (not necessarily just martial) to refer to specifically nuanced concepts or phenomena uniquely significant unto them.

The whole thing kind of brings the various Greek secret schools to mind. While they discussed and explored universal phenomena (geometry, astronomy, etc.) their views, nomenclature, etc. were specific unto themselves and "held close to the chest" and their explorations were often at once empirical, philosophic, and/or religious. Okay . . . I'm speaking way beyond my "pay grade" now!

Once again, I was, and am, simply suggesting that the subject is deserving of further exploration. Just because one has learned a "Pythagorean Theorem" (and for those feeling left out, just because one speaks and reads ancient Greek) does not mean one understands the totality of the Pythagorean mystery school, any more than dressing up in robes and sandals would.

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 12-10-2011, 09:50 AM   #29
Chris Li
 
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Re: Rethinking the meaning of various phrases in light of "aiki"

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Hi Chris,

I did not "mean separating the two phrases somewhat and relating them indirectly." I intended to amplify the translation you provided which seems to me (for whatever that is worth) succinct and accurate. I hoped to encourage individuals to pause and think of the potential implications of such a comment and to also consider "What don't you know?" There may be quite a bit that one doesn't know, and then there may not.
No worries, I didn't take you comment negatively, I just wasn't clear whether or not you were seeing an implication that I hadn't seen. I like the quote too, but I ignored it as more of that weird incomprehensible stuff for years

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-10-2011, 10:08 AM   #30
Fred Little
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Re: Rethinking the meaning of various phrases in light of "aiki"

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Also keeping in mind the various Koryu that Takeda Sokaku studied that might have brought influence on how he "mentally mapped" his experience. Jikishinkage Ryu comes to mind as one of those that, if memory serves, has some Ten Chi Jin nomenclature as well as other attributes that might have been relevant and/or influential on Takeda Sokaku and therefore Daito Ryu.

It is my understanding that Ten Chi Jin was commonly used nomenclature used broadly (reminds me of the Sho Chiku Bai conversations that went way over my head quickly, this one could easily do so as well). However, it is also my understanding that the generally used Ten Chi Jin terms could be used by various groups (not necessarily just martial) to refer to specifically nuanced concepts or phenomena uniquely significant unto them.

The whole thing kind of brings the various Greek secret schools to mind. While they discussed and explored universal phenomena (geometry, astronomy, etc.) their views, nomenclature, etc. were specific unto themselves and "held close to the chest" and their explorations were often at once empirical, philosophic, and/or religious. Okay . . . I'm speaking way beyond my "pay grade" now!

Once again, I was, and am, simply suggesting that the subject is deserving of further exploration. Just because one has learned a "Pythagorean Theorem" (and for those feeling left out, just because one speaks and reads ancient Greek) does not mean one understands the totality of the Pythagorean mystery school, any more than dressing up in robes and sandals would.
And the mystery is pretty deeply ingrained, with many reserved interpretations in specific applications.
Setting aside the ninja scrolls, here are some other places one finds the Ten Chi Jin or Ten Jin Chi or Sansai "principle:"

Ikebana 1

Ikebana 2

Kurozumi Shinto

Shunga

Basic Japanese Literature

Garden design

Academia

And if that isn't enough meat to chew on, consider the folk etymology of the character for emperor:



In that interpetation, the vertical stroke is said to represent the person of the emperor, who unites the three horizontal strokes, which represent (from top to bottom) heaven, humanity, and earth.

Happy mastication!

FL

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Old 12-10-2011, 10:08 AM   #31
Chris Li
 
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Re: Rethinking the meaning of various phrases in light of "aiki"

Sure .

I'll have to look through it - Shishida tends to be a little dry, but always has some interesting historical stuff. I'm not sure how deep the article goes (that's just based on a quick look through).

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-10-2011, 10:45 AM   #32
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Re: Rethinking the meaning of various phrases in light of "aiki"

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Setting aside the ninja scrolls, . . .

FL
Whoa! Dude! You've got NINJA scrolls?!?!

OMG! That is soooo cool . . . I read that they were TOTALLY into Mikkyo (Secret Teachings) which is where they got their REAL cool powers to disappear and stuff. This goes WAY beyond Ten, Chi, Jin, I mean they had it going on which is why the word "Ninja" struck fear into the heart of any samurai soldier.

You know, Takeda and Ueshiba both could disappear and reappear and Takeda used a bunch of different weapons and could even flip tatami with one hand. Do you think? I mean it kind of adds up! I mean the whole, not being any recorded history prior to Takeda and then BAM all of a sudden Daito Ryu appears out of the blue like a NINJA!! I'm thinking if it had a secret history, well then it would kind of be unknown wouldn't it? And how did Ueshiba get hooked up with that Bo dude that did that Ninja Bo stuff?

So, I know they're not scrolls exactly, but you know those little books they sell on Ebay that are Ninja Mikkyo? Well, they are written in Japanese, so I was thinking they might teach the secrets, I mean the REAL secrets. What do you think?

If I could pass through a wall, or flip a tatami or disappear so something, well I'm thinking THAT would get some peoples attention alright!

Wait maybe it might get the wrong sort of attention though . . .

I mean I wouldn't want a whole secret society after me on the internet . . . hey, I bet that's what real Ninja do these days. They are the shadow warriors of the internet. They can pass through the wall of my house unseen. They can appear and disappear at a moments notice.

Whoa dude! It kind of gives me the creeps just thinking about it. Okay, never mind, I don't WANT to know. Forget I even mentioned it . . .


~ Allen Beebe
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:59 AM   #33
Fred Little
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Re: Rethinking the meaning of various phrases in light of "aiki"

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Whoa! Dude! You've got NINJA scrolls?!?!

OMG! That is soooo cool . . . I read that they were TOTALLY into Mikkyo (Secret Teachings) which is where they got their REAL cool powers to disappear and stuff. This goes WAY beyond Ten, Chi, Jin, I mean they had it going on which is why the word "Ninja" struck fear into the heart of any samurai soldier.
Well, that and the way they flip out and go on a killing spree when anybody points out that the real enlightened masters know that Mikkyo totally means three tea

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Old 12-10-2011, 12:30 PM   #34
Fred Little
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Re: Rethinking the meaning of various phrases in light of "aiki"

That was a bit too close for comfort! I'll be more circumspect in the future.

FL

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Old 12-10-2011, 01:25 PM   #35
Allen Beebe
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Re: Rethinking the meaning of various phrases in light of "aiki"


~ Allen Beebe
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:16 AM   #36
HL1978
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Re: Rethinking the meaning of various phrases in light of "aiki"

Ok, how about "harmonization"?
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:49 AM   #37
chillzATL
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Re: Rethinking the meaning of various phrases in light of "aiki"

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Ok, how about "harmonization"?
IMO I think it's an extension of the same things we talked about with absolute non-resistance, but where one could think of absolute non-resistance being a static thing, when you get to harmonization you start bringing the role of intent into it more. You're no longer letting those forces just pass through, you're actively doing something with them and adding some of your own back into it.

Several months ago I went to an Ikeda seminar and one of the things he talked about that I really liked was to "make kata" or "make shape". Basically, you make the shape of the technique internally before the technique is even performed. Your intent is set before contact is made, so that as soon as you find uke's center your intent is harmonizing their force and sending it in another direction, internally. The example that I gave that you used to start the thread is probably a better example of harmonization than it is absolute non-resistance, as the role of intent in making that happen is as least as important as the body structure which allows the forces to pass through you cleanly in the first place.

One other thing I would like to add. While I'm firmly in the camp that all of these things we're discussing have to be realized internally, I recogize that for ueshiba, there was a point where he took these concepts and ideals externally as well. He was still doing the same things internally, but he was using those things to also harmonize externally as well. Maybe that is the ultimate aikido, the highest level, but I personally don't believe you can anywhere by starting there.
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Old 12-12-2011, 07:00 AM   #38
phitruong
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Re: Rethinking the meaning of various phrases in light of "aiki"

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Several months ago I went to an Ikeda seminar and one of the things he talked about that I really liked was to "make kata" or "make shape". Basically, you make the shape of the technique internally before the technique is even performed. Your intent is set before contact is made, so that as soon as you find uke's center your intent is harmonizing their force and sending it in another direction, internally.
hmmm hey, i was there but i thought he was giving us the recipe for his secret aiki cookie. what i heard was "blah blah blah...cookie blah blah blah cookie shapes blah blah blah cookie blah blah blah..." i couldn't get his recipe to work at all.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:31 PM   #39
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Rethinking the meaning of various phrases in light of "aiki"

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Whoa! Dude! You've got NINJA scrolls?!?!

OMG! That is soooo cool . . . I read that they were TOTALLY into Mikkyo (Secret Teachings) which is where they got their REAL cool powers to disappear and stuff. This goes WAY beyond Ten, Chi, Jin, I mean they had it going on which is why the word "Ninja" struck fear into the heart of any samurai soldier.

You know, Takeda and Ueshiba both could disappear and reappear and Takeda used a bunch of different weapons and could even flip tatami with one hand. Do you think? I mean it kind of adds up! I mean the whole, not being any recorded history prior to Takeda and then BAM all of a sudden Daito Ryu appears out of the blue like a NINJA!! I'm thinking if it had a secret history, well then it would kind of be unknown wouldn't it? And how did Ueshiba get hooked up with that Bo dude that did that Ninja Bo stuff?

So, I know they're not scrolls exactly, but you know those little books they sell on Ebay that are Ninja Mikkyo? Well, they are written in Japanese, so I was thinking they might teach the secrets, I mean the REAL secrets. What do you think?

If I could pass through a wall, or flip a tatami or disappear so something, well I'm thinking THAT would get some peoples attention alright!

Wait maybe it might get the wrong sort of attention though . . .

I mean I wouldn't want a whole secret society after me on the internet . . . hey, I bet that's what real Ninja do these days. They are the shadow warriors of the internet. They can pass through the wall of my house unseen. They can appear and disappear at a moments notice.

Whoa dude! It kind of gives me the creeps just thinking about it. Okay, never mind, I don't WANT to know. Forget I even mentioned it . . .

Allen--

I think you are one of the Mikkyo inspirations for "Portlandia."
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