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Old 12-03-2011, 05:27 PM   #1
graham christian
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Shuhari

O'Sensei learned well and once he had what he wanted he moved on. He practiced Shuhari.

Many westerners too practice shuhari but may call it something else. So what is it?

It is intrinsic to 'stealing a tachnique' yet it doesn't have anything to do with taking without permission.

Thus it also has nothing to do with skulduggery or keeping things from. It is merely a way of study.

The only true way of study in my opinion for all else called study to me is merely copying or gathering data like a machine, a robot.

The problem for those who know this and do it is that they then know if others want to truly understand then they must do the same. Unfortunately those in this position run into the usual complaints by those who think study is something else. Complaints of needing a better model, complaints of not being taught properly, complaints of not understanding. The list goes on.

So what is this way of study?

It's basically the most natural thing that most tend to forget or have 'taught' out of them by modern education. A baby studies this way. A toddler does too and boy do they learn. They not only learn but can understand and do too. No books, no lectures, no school classes.

Another funny thing about shuhari is that it was considered that only the intellectually smart could do it. Wow! So there you are, babies are inherently intellectually smart so what happened?

Now stealing from this point of view is an intellectual activity. Knowing how those who looked at these words as is common I bet Ueshiba had a big smile on his face when he mentioned anything about stealing techniques knowing how the majority would take what he meant.

Very basically yet clearly Shuhari is the observing, perceiving and recognising the principles BEHIND
what is successful rather than just copying or gathering data about.

So then you get to understand the principles so you can take them away and apply them to what you are doing or even use them in new innovative ways. That is the stealing referred to.

Thus the principles behind the techniques must be observed and practiced in order to understand.

Now don't this sound a little familiar? This way of teaching and studying is very much about observation and perception and very much about through doing as practice. Hands on!!!

Yet those who put down O'Senseis teaching and thus shuhari now shout about hands on. It's one of the best jokes.

Now it doesn't always have to be hands on but it does have to be observation of principles in action, principles behind the physical presentation.

T.S. Elliot understood shuhari. He wrote 'Immature poets imitate, mature poets steal.

Picasso understood shuhari. He said 'Good artists copy, great artists steal.'

All great innovators in this computer technology world study the principles of what others are doing and then get busy being innovative.

So personally I wish more had stolen techniques instead of complaining about they didn't understand what O'Sensei was saying. In fact you will find the ones that progressed furthest continually went back to principles behind what they were doing.

Regards.G.
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Old 12-03-2011, 10:00 PM   #2
David Yap
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Re: Shuhari

Is this an end of year joke?
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:40 AM   #3
SeaGrass
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Re: Shuhari



http://www.shinyokai.com/Essays_TeachingShuHaRi.htm

would the real ShuHaRi, please stand up, please stand up
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:43 AM   #4
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Shuhari

Quote:
Bien Nguyen wrote: View Post


http://www.shinyokai.com/Essays_TeachingShuHaRi.htm

would the real ShuHaRi, please stand up, please stand up

Chuck Clark
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Old 12-07-2011, 10:01 PM   #5
graham christian
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Re: Shuhari

Quote:
Graham,

You posted a thread on this. I bet you believe that you are one of the few who really understand this concept . Shu Ha Ri 守破離 which kanji or part of the kanji mentions "stealing"?

Perhaps you can answer this in your original post to avoid distraction from this thread.

Regards

David Y
Thought this thread was a non starter by the above replies, especially yours, so I haven't been distracted I've merely moved on.

Anyway, to address your new question I will as always give my view.

Kanji, mmm, who knows? I don't read kanji. However I do read English.

Now as far as I know shuhari refers to a way of learning, that's point one.

Secondly it refers to three steps of learning. So that's point two.

Thirdly I would thus assume that the kanji you refer to represent those three steps. So I will give you my understanding of how it translates in English and you may feel free to correct if necessary.

Shu meaning to learn, to follow (technique)

Ha meaning break away (take away or collect)

Ri meaning Fluent (to blend together)

Now as I said, westerners and others even in big business refer to this, relate to this shuhari and use it. They understand that techniques are merely the application of certain principles. That's all a technique is. So they look to see what principles are being used and learn only those principles. That's step one.

They then go away with those principles and apply them to what they are doing be it computer technology or whatever. Step two.

They blend them with the principles they are already using and come up with new ways of doing things. Step three. Shu ha ri.

Most of them say, including the two famous ones I mentioned in the o/p it's like stealing the principles but in a good sense. Thus it shows that understanding the principles gives you something to take away and work with not trying to copy the techniques.

I did say I believe many don't understand this and that is because over the years teaching people that the principles is all they should focus on if they really want to learn is met with disbelief only for them later to say AHHH, you've been saying that all along. I also said it because over the years also on meeting different Aikidoka and showing them basic principle I have met with, the mojority of times, responses which show they have never considered or been taught that way. Generally thinking principles are techniques or 'basics' that they then find are not quite basic at all.

But there again I point out that many in the world also do understand and learn this way rather than by gathering lots of data and seeing all data as of equal importance. Thus the more data the more intelligent. Oh, please. Empty that cup.

Now I don't mind really if you call it 'ho bi dee' or whatever but I am saying that I think O'Sensei learned this way and expected others to.

I hope that explains my thinking to you sufficiently.

Regards.G.

Last edited by akiy : 12-07-2011 at 10:52 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 12-07-2011, 10:30 PM   #6
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Shuhari

Graham, you have no real understanding of the Shu, Ha, Ri process. If you really want to learn, find a teacher who knows... or at least do some research (Google actually works) as there are a few pieces in English that are worth looking into. I can understand your passion and commitment to your practice. Look further...

Chuck Clark
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Old 12-07-2011, 11:10 PM   #7
David Yap
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Re: Shuhari

Graham,

Thank you for the reply. I agree and confirm that it was non-starter. I honestly thought that it was a joke here but when you repeated it again in the other thread I had my doubt. BIG DOUBT.

守破離
Quote:
Kanji, mmm, who knows? I don't read kanji. However I do read English.
You should (read Kanji).

David Y
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Old 12-07-2011, 11:29 PM   #8
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Shuhari

Way too over simplified. Where do I begin in trying to discuss the issues I have with this and how to explain. well here goes.....

You are using only one modality to try and understand this. I think you are making the mistake that I see all too common in the Western mind. We tend to look at everything as a intellectual pursuit. that is, I can observe, rationalize, discuss, talk about it, and conceptualize it...and there for it is mine and I know have knowledge that I can apply.

If this were the case then O'Sensei would have installed bleachers in the dojo and made everyone sit there and watch as he lectured...no need for hands on.

Principles: well these principles you discuss are not really principles at all, but they are kinesthetic movements that are based on the human struture and frame. the ACTUAL principles you are dealing with are things like Gravity and the physical properties of dirt, cement, air, water etc.....everything we do is a reaction to this environment and therefore is not a principle but a response.

I could try to explain this, but I doubt at this point you really care to hear my answer. Basically you can observe an apple falling and hitting the ground...that covers the principles of Mass, gravity etc. We can then do this over and over and observe what happens and then write a consistent LAW or Principle that states what happens to an object. the properties of that object might determine the RESPONSE that is returned. A human will respond differently to these principles. Two humans might respond differently based on many factors of age, speed, size, and experiences.

Ah experiences:

Baking a cake. We tend to glaze over whole swaths of implied/implicit knowledge. I can observe that the guy making the cake puts in four "cups" of a white powdery substance. I was out the night club and this dude had a white powdery substance....I remember, go to him and ask him for the same amount...pay like $1000 for it, go home and make a cake...however it taste much different and I get high.

Why is that...you'd say I was an idiot, but why? because it based on what we have grown to accept as a common understanding we "assume" that the substance is flour, but if I don't have that level of knowledge cause I am from Bizzaro world it does not seem so stupid.

AIkido works the same way. I think alot of us are from Bizzaro World. That is, a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals come to this practice. They are smart in so many other pursuits in their lives because in the west we tend to reward those that get A's in school. A by product of the technical/industrial revolution.

So we come to aikido...a martial art in which we have no basis of understanding, observe something, rationalize and intellectualize the practice and say "ah, I understand THAT" and then proceed to make the proverbial cocaine/crack cake! THEY are so removed from any real experience in making that proverbial cake...they don't even have a reference point for judging the taste! They eat it and think it taste good!

IMO, this is NOT as far fetched as it sounds! I see it all the time!

I would recommend a ton of books.

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance I think actually captures the essence in a very poetic way.

The Art of Learning by Josh Waitkins is another good book that captures the essence of what I am talking about.

Humans learn through three basic modalities, Visual, Auditory, and Kinesthetic. Most of us in the west have been rewarded for using our brains which in the normal industrial/technical "jobs" is highly visual and auditory. We know we fail in the kinesthetic area as you look around at the over all physical condition of the average human.

Yet we have the audacity to come forth and profess that because we can intellectualize stuff we profess true and authentic knowledge! I love intellectuals and scholarly types.

It's like the MBA professor telling someone how to make a ton of money in business, yet he has never actually done that!

IT is like...why does Baguette taste better in France than in the US. I hear it is in the water!

Speaking of water.......Humans are like 90% water right? so if I have a big jar of water...then I have 90% pf a person right????? Principles would dictate this based on your rationality here.

No there is MUCH to be said for DNA...both figuratively and literally. It is the arrangement of "stuff" at a very subtle and microscopic level that determines the QUALITY and properties of what makes something work and defines it.

Again, read Zen and the Art to get to the root of this.

Therefore...it is absolutely important in the TRANSMISSION of this stuff that you EXPERIENCE it HANDS ON. the TRANSMISSION dictates that I must communicate and a very basic level that hits all three of my modalities. VAK. and I must EXPERIENCE it..the ART.

Again it is like making Baquette or baking a cake....you have to get with the artist and understand exactly WHAT is going on that gets it to be so special and different than the next loaf or cake.

Sorry for the rambling...I had no other way of really trying to communicate this.

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Old 12-08-2011, 12:56 AM   #9
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Shuhari

WOW! Kevin, you're not gonna have to exercise those fingers again for a month or so... Je choisis la baguette Francais avec fromage camenbert chaque fois. C'est certainment le meillure.

I wish we'd had that combo in the C-Rats in country back in the day...

Chuck Clark
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Old 12-08-2011, 01:40 AM   #10
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Shuhari

I'm going to France and Belgium this weekend (Bastogne) to do the annual Battle of the Bulge march...so probably was on my mind.

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Old 12-08-2011, 02:16 AM   #11
Mark Freeman
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Re: Shuhari

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I'm going to France and Belgium this weekend (Bastogne) to do the annual Battle of the Bulge march...so probably was on my mind.
Hi Kevin,

I just think you'd eaten a portion of the cake you were telling us about

I do agree with you though, hands on beats words every time. However, someone who can explain in words 'exactly' what they are doing, to get the effect that they are getting, are to be listened to very carefully.

Have a good weekend.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 12-08-2011, 05:52 AM   #12
graham christian
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Re: Shuhari

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Way too over simplified. Where do I begin in trying to discuss the issues I have with this and how to explain. well here goes.....

You are using only one modality to try and understand this. I think you are making the mistake that I see all too common in the Western mind. We tend to look at everything as a intellectual pursuit. that is, I can observe, rationalize, discuss, talk about it, and conceptualize it...and there for it is mine and I know have knowledge that I can apply.

If this were the case then O'Sensei would have installed bleachers in the dojo and made everyone sit there and watch as he lectured...no need for hands on.

Principles: well these principles you discuss are not really principles at all, but they are kinesthetic movements that are based on the human struture and frame. the ACTUAL principles you are dealing with are things like Gravity and the physical properties of dirt, cement, air, water etc.....everything we do is a reaction to this environment and therefore is not a principle but a response.

I could try to explain this, but I doubt at this point you really care to hear my answer. Basically you can observe an apple falling and hitting the ground...that covers the principles of Mass, gravity etc. We can then do this over and over and observe what happens and then write a consistent LAW or Principle that states what happens to an object. the properties of that object might determine the RESPONSE that is returned. A human will respond differently to these principles. Two humans might respond differently based on many factors of age, speed, size, and experiences.

Ah experiences:

Baking a cake. We tend to glaze over whole swaths of implied/implicit knowledge. I can observe that the guy making the cake puts in four "cups" of a white powdery substance. I was out the night club and this dude had a white powdery substance....I remember, go to him and ask him for the same amount...pay like $1000 for it, go home and make a cake...however it taste much different and I get high.

Why is that...you'd say I was an idiot, but why? because it based on what we have grown to accept as a common understanding we "assume" that the substance is flour, but if I don't have that level of knowledge cause I am from Bizzaro world it does not seem so stupid.

AIkido works the same way. I think alot of us are from Bizzaro World. That is, a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals come to this practice. They are smart in so many other pursuits in their lives because in the west we tend to reward those that get A's in school. A by product of the technical/industrial revolution.

So we come to aikido...a martial art in which we have no basis of understanding, observe something, rationalize and intellectualize the practice and say "ah, I understand THAT" and then proceed to make the proverbial cocaine/crack cake! THEY are so removed from any real experience in making that proverbial cake...they don't even have a reference point for judging the taste! They eat it and think it taste good!

IMO, this is NOT as far fetched as it sounds! I see it all the time!

I would recommend a ton of books.

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance I think actually captures the essence in a very poetic way.

The Art of Learning by Josh Waitkins is another good book that captures the essence of what I am talking about.

Humans learn through three basic modalities, Visual, Auditory, and Kinesthetic. Most of us in the west have been rewarded for using our brains which in the normal industrial/technical "jobs" is highly visual and auditory. We know we fail in the kinesthetic area as you look around at the over all physical condition of the average human.

Yet we have the audacity to come forth and profess that because we can intellectualize stuff we profess true and authentic knowledge! I love intellectuals and scholarly types.

It's like the MBA professor telling someone how to make a ton of money in business, yet he has never actually done that!

IT is like...why does Baguette taste better in France than in the US. I hear it is in the water!

Speaking of water.......Humans are like 90% water right? so if I have a big jar of water...then I have 90% pf a person right????? Principles would dictate this based on your rationality here.

No there is MUCH to be said for DNA...both figuratively and literally. It is the arrangement of "stuff" at a very subtle and microscopic level that determines the QUALITY and properties of what makes something work and defines it.

Again, read Zen and the Art to get to the root of this.

Therefore...it is absolutely important in the TRANSMISSION of this stuff that you EXPERIENCE it HANDS ON. the TRANSMISSION dictates that I must communicate and a very basic level that hits all three of my modalities. VAK. and I must EXPERIENCE it..the ART.

Again it is like making Baquette or baking a cake....you have to get with the artist and understand exactly WHAT is going on that gets it to be so special and different than the next loaf or cake.

Sorry for the rambling...I had no other way of really trying to communicate this.
You assume a lot there. I am not being or oversimplifying it. How can you say what I am giving as principles is whatever when I haven't given any examples of principle.

Now saying what I said means just sit there and no hands on is also you misunderstanding for I said step one is observing and learning the principles. This means seeing and getting in there and applying. Thus when you understand then you can take them away and use them, step two.

When I say that's how Ueshiba studied I obviously don't mean he just watched do I ?

So sorry, no cakes for you, back to bread and water. Ha, ha.

Amount of water in a body is not a principle. Your misunderstanding is on the word principle itself the way I am using it. Operating principle, the underlying law (or laws) that the rest must follow.

So I recommend less books. Less data. DNA? That's more a program.

It's quite the opposite of intellectualizing so assuming you can spread out how I think is you inteelectualizing.

As I said in a past thread, I wanted to know how many Aikidoka had helped martial artists from other arts but didn't get many replies. I found this a bit odd at the time bacause it was like second nature to me. Why? Because I like watching other martial arts for I look only for the principles in play and how they are using them.

Visual, audio, kinesthetic. That could equal copying. The professor of business has done that. You are right though in that he hasn't run a business that's why I go to someone that can do rather than someone who has data, qualifications, phd's and history etc.

So the example of step one I give above includes hands on practice of the observed principles. Now sometimes it doesn't need that, can you guess when?

When you are already a very good experienced able person at something. For instance if I was Picasso and went and looked at some african art I would recognise how the artists were using the principles in a different way to me. On recognising this I could take that knowledge away with me and it would inspire me towards some new style of picture which I would then practice and finally do.

No history lessons, no having to find out who the artist is and where he was born. No needing to find out the makeup of the paints used or their weight age or how long it took. No, just studying the principles and thus seeing how the artist did it. Simple.

The principle of the circle in Aikido. It's not a fact or something that applies to one technique because blah, blah, blah. No, it's a principle. An operating law. That's one example of a principle of Aikido. Nothing to do with the persons weight or size or build.

Anyway, VAK is good and is thus included in what I already said about shuhari the only difference and thus THE difference is the emphasis on principle only and if you don't then you could well just be copying, hands on or not.

Regards.G.
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Old 12-08-2011, 06:02 AM   #13
graham christian
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Re: Shuhari

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
Graham,

Thank you for the reply. I agree and confirm that it was non-starter. I honestly thought that it was a joke here but when you repeated it again in the other thread I had my doubt. BIG DOUBT.

守破離

You should (read Kanji).

David Y
Learn principles and you will lose your doubt maybe?

As I said, I don't need kanji. I could tell english people to go study the principles of something and then come back to me and show me. I reckon 80% would come back with data, explanations, weird demonstrations, intellectual commentaries but no principles.

Regards.G.
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Old 12-08-2011, 07:40 AM   #14
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Shuhari

Quote:
The principle of the circle in Aikido. It's not a fact or something that applies to one technique because blah, blah, blah. No, it's a principle. An operating law. That's one example of a principle of Aikido. Nothing to do with the persons weight or size or build
I am not following you. what is the principle of the circle?

What are the core principles of Aikido?

Quote:
Amount of water in a body is not a principle. Your misunderstanding is on the word principle itself the way I am using it. Operating principle, the underlying law (or laws) that the rest must follow.

So I recommend less books. Less data. DNA? That's more a program.
Yes, I understand water is not a principle, it is an element...that was my point. It is the form and structure...the DNA at the base level that gives it meaning and defintion.

In order for something like aikido to have meaning, there has to be "something" that is transmitted. I think we would agree on that.

What is being transmitted? Principles is what you are saying are transmitted. I say no.

Principles are there regardless of what we do or don't do. We are all subject to the laws the impose on us (Gravity). So no, you don't transmit them...you identify what is affecting you and you learn how to manage yourself because of them.

So, again...what is it that we are doing to explore the "principles" and their effects?

How are we TRANSMITTING that knowledge (methodology)?

and WHAT exactly is being transmitted? and WHAT does it affect (Spiritually, Mentally, or Physically)?

So when we look at the phyical practice of Aikido...what is it that we are transmiting that gives definition or meaning to the physical body?

Mike Sigman would ask very direct questions about this kinda stuff. Lets not beat around the bush...lets discuss intelligently and specifically what these things are.

Since your thread was about Shuhari...then we are talking pretty much about METHODOLOGY. Specifically Aikido methodology.

In that line, how does the methodology work and what exactly does it transmit? what does it affect?

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Old 12-08-2011, 08:12 AM   #15
Walter Martindale
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Re: Shuhari

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

Yes, I understand water is not a principle, it is an element...that was my point. It is the form and structure...the DNA at the base level that gives it meaning and defintion.
Water is a compound made of the elements Hydrogen and Oxygen.

'earth, air, fire, water' are not "elements" - maybe people thought they were a long time ago, but people used to think the earth was the centre of the universe, too.
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Old 12-08-2011, 08:15 AM   #16
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Shuhari

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Water is a compound made of the elements Hydrogen and Oxygen.

'earth, air, fire, water' are not "elements" - maybe people thought they were a long time ago, but people used to think the earth was the centre of the universe, too.
Yes...you are indeed correct! I should have not typed so fast, and having a BS in Biology and Chemistry...I should know better than to use that!

Does it change the argument I present?

Thanks Walter!

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Old 12-08-2011, 10:24 AM   #17
David Yap
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Re: Shuhari

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Learn principles and you will lose your doubt maybe?

As I said, I don't need kanji. I could tell english people to go study the principles of something and then come back to me and show me. I reckon 80% would come back with data, explanations, weird demonstrations, intellectual commentaries but no principles.

Regards.G.
You should learn when to stop before you lose all your credibility. As Chuck advised, you should do some research into the subject matter. You have no idea what Shu Ha Ri is and what it entails for a student and for a teacher. The Japanese concept of Shu Ha Ri is more significant to the teacher than it is to the student because the teacher himself is also a student of the path or Way. The role of the teacher is to protect and preserve the Way (the forms/techniques) even though as student he/she has gone beyond the forms or techniques.

Shu Ha Ri is NOT an English concept. With what authority can you tell the English people to go study the principles of something and then go back to you and show you. What make you so cock sure that 80% would come back to you without principles. So, you are saying that 80% of the aikido practitioners are screwed and 20% might have a chance of understanding Aiki. God save aikido in the UK.
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Old 12-08-2011, 11:19 AM   #18
graham christian
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Re: Shuhari

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I am not following you. what is the principle of the circle?

What are the core principles of Aikido?

Yes, I understand water is not a principle, it is an element...that was my point. It is the form and structure...the DNA at the base level that gives it meaning and defintion.

In order for something like aikido to have meaning, there has to be "something" that is transmitted. I think we would agree on that.

What is being transmitted? Principles is what you are saying are transmitted. I say no.

Principles are there regardless of what we do or don't do. We are all subject to the laws the impose on us (Gravity). So no, you don't transmit them...you identify what is affecting you and you learn how to manage yourself because of them.

So, again...what is it that we are doing to explore the "principles" and their effects?

How are we TRANSMITTING that knowledge (methodology)?

and WHAT exactly is being transmitted? and WHAT does it affect (Spiritually, Mentally, or Physically)?

So when we look at the phyical practice of Aikido...what is it that we are transmiting that gives definition or meaning to the physical body?

Mike Sigman would ask very direct questions about this kinda stuff. Lets not beat around the bush...lets discuss intelligently and specifically what these things are.

Since your thread was about Shuhari...then we are talking pretty much about METHODOLOGY. Specifically Aikido methodology.

In that line, how does the methodology work and what exactly does it transmit? what does it affect?
Good questions. There are many. The circle being one.

I don't say principles are transmitted I say they need to be observed and practiced. What is to be transmitted is the purpose of Aikido. Harmony, peace.

So as far as I am concerned Aikido should bring about harmony and peace so that is what should be transmitted. Therefore I say the principles of Aikido can be known and used and thus by so doing will bring such about.

So now to principles and their use in the activity of Aikido. You ask for 'core' principles and you also ask for how circle is a principle.

Core principles I take it would mean the more important ones or the 'central ones' if you like. Well O'Sensei was on about these continuously so just 'saying' what they are may not lead very far. However we have the principle of universal love, the principle of non resistance, the principle of center, the principle of Ki flow, the principle of blending. Many principles to be understood as such. So the first thing to do is recognise which are principles and which are not.

Now, if you take my purpose I gave for Aikido then the principles would have to fit with such in order to be relevant and thus relevant to Aikido.

So we come to shuhari or study and methology as you put it.

So up comes the question of what are we trying to do? Bring harmony back to that person attacking me. To bring about a harmonious result, a peaceful resolution.

We are dealing with what? Motion. For that person to attack me he has to move. So the first port of call is the study of motion and if we are studying motion and we want to move in alignment with it according to those universal principles of such, which according to O'Sensei Aikido is, then we must study the ways of energy.

Any fist or thing coming your way to harm you is in motion and follows the underlying principles of energy, it has no choice but to.

So if we get to know these underlying principles of energy motion then we can move in accordance with them and all will be natural and thus return to harmonious alignment. That is the challenge.

Ki is energy and thus even it follows the principles of energy also. So to study the ways of Ki you would also start by just locating and following the principles of energy the same as you would if you are talking about force or effort or whatever other label you have for the energy coming at you.

So observe the ways of energy, what does it do and more interestingly what paths does it naturally follow.

Did you know energy LOVES circles. That's one of its preferred pathways. Throw a pebble in a pond you will see those circles and you will also see another principle in play as with that example you will see expanding circles and contracting ones. Thus one of the basic principles of yin and yang, which also comes into play in Aikido.

Anyway back to circle. Those who build big buildings have to know about these same principles and thus comes about the invention of the arch. So we begin to see that give it a choice then energy will follow the circle. Hence curves (parts of circles) There you are trying to force a person down and his energy is pushing back up at you. Now you want to let's say push him down at a certain angle and his force or energy is going against that. Why won't his energy join with yours and thus go down?

Because there is a kink in the hosepipe so to speak, you are asking his energy to suddenly go back at say 30 degrees. Now if you just make a little curve like a 'u' shape suddenly his energy is going back down and so is he. Energy loves circles and thus curves. It cant resist, it's a principle.

Kotegaishe is a circle. It is in it's purity a circle and nothing else. But number one, can a student see that. Number two, can a student even believe that for in their mind surely it must be more than that, you know a slight twist and a bit of force and, and and....

A person who really knows this can hold a circle there as kotegaishe, just hold it there, no more no less. If the person tries to move foreward or rush foreward then their energy or force rushes back around the circle of the Kotegaishe at the same speed and thus they are throwing themselves. All you actually have to do is form the circle and maintain and control it.

Their energy is already in the circle so you already have them but do you believe it? Principle are not only hard to trust but also hard to believe until they become more real to you than what you are used to using or reverting to.

Thus we start to see the use of the principle of the circle. Other principles of energy can then be studied in a similar fashion and then seen how and where they fit into the motions of Aikido.

Yin and Yang. One of the primary principles of that is the principle of expansion and contraction. Thus we see center has something to do with this and one point as taught by Tohei was to do with this also. So we see how that is applied and used in Aikido. Another principle.

Then we could also look at non resistance and energy. Well we would venture into spiritual and Ki here so let's just take a step back. Energy follows the path of least resistance. Another principle.
It is from this principle that we discover pathways, pathways and directions we follow in Aikido for they are all paths of least resistance. Thus irimi was borne. Etc.

So the study of irimi is actually the study of a path, a path of least resistance and it becomes a challenge of recognising it versus the mind which says'hold on a minute, that's too close!' Thus the mind interferes. Another challenge. With enough practice and successes the mind finaly changes to accepting it as best.

So there you are. A few principles and a few examples of how they apply in Aikido.

There are many. Small steps long journey.

Regards.G.
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Old 12-08-2011, 11:53 AM   #19
Walter Martindale
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Re: Shuhari

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Yes...you are indeed correct! I should have not typed so fast, and having a BS in Biology and Chemistry...I should know better than to use that!

Does it change the argument I present?

Thanks Walter!
I don't think it changes the arguments. I can be anal about some trivial things.

Movement principles are vital.
Qualitative (non-numerical) biomechanics has several. I'll probably forget one or two.

Direction priniciple: movement happens in the direction of the forces being applied and in proportion to the amount of force applied (ok, an equation, F=Ma)
Size priniciple: biggest muscles/joints first, smallest muscles/joints next
Summation of Joint Moments: start the big movements and add the joint moments farther down the chain until the end of the movement. - this is connected to the size principle.
Stability: centre of mass stays within the base. (this can be dynamic)
As I don't use it daily, there's one about angular motion whose name I forget: Spinning objects, bring in the diameter, spin speeds up, put out the diameter, spin slows down... (I'm pretty much a rowing person and if we ever "spin" in rowing, we're in trouble).

All movements in aikido can be explained by physical principles - whether or not we're smart enough to explain them or whether or not we have the technology to measure the physical principles in action is another heap of questions. If we could get a big enough force platform and use 3-d cinematography to do the dynamics computations from force platform up through the mushy humans doing the movements, we could actually compute where the forces that do the throwing come from and explain what "IS" is...

However, a 30 cm x 60 cm force platform by Kistler was $40,000 in 1979 (with all the accompanying signal amplifiers, of course), synchronized camera/computer systems for tracking motion aren't cheap, either, (although the movie industry has some pretty swish stuff) and there ain't money in figuring it out, so I don't suspect it will happen unless someone in a university or big engineering company wants to use the hardware during 'down' time to do a study. (for example, there's a fellow whose paying job is the aerodynamics of wind turbines who uses the software and spare time to model the fluid dynamics of racing oars for rowing)

Once again, I get off topic...
Must get back to work.
Cheers,
W
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:39 PM   #20
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Shuhari

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So as far as I am concerned Aikido should bring about harmony and peace so that is what should be transmitted. Therefore I say the principles of Aikido can be known and used and thus by so doing will bring such about.
To me Harmony and Peace are concepts, not principles. As concepts they are also ENDSTATES of aikido...not something that is transmitted. To me, something that would be transmitted would be knowledge of some kind that effectively would lead or enable Harmony and Peace. What knowledge is being transmitted through the methodology of Aikido? knowledge on the mental, physical, and spiritual dimensions.....how does the methodology of aikido accomplish this?

Quote:
Core principles I take it would mean the more important ones or the 'central ones' if you like. Well O'Sensei was on about these continuously so just 'saying' what they are may not lead very far. However we have the principle of universal love, the principle of non resistance, the principle of center, the principle of Ki flow, the principle of blending. Many principles to be understood as such. So the first thing to do is recognize which are principles and which are not.
Universal love is a concept or an endstate...not a principle. Again, what are the "things" we do in aikido that enable this endstate?

Principle of Center: not sure what this is. We sure talk about it alot in Aikido, but heck if I really know what it means. I think it is good to be balanced, have your balance, and for your uke to not have it. having balance or center would be based on your structure as it relates to gravity.

Non-resistance: I think this is a concept too. It connotes a particular constraint or ethic

Principle of Blending: Again, how is this a principle...it might at best be a technique, tactic, or method to make some particular action happen. What is blending though and what is it's significance and application?

Principle of Ki Flow: A concept. Alot of people have this concept in their mind about KI flow and what it is and isn't. What is Ki...and how does it flow? if it flows, where does it come from...it must have a position or origin in order to measure flow. I suppose it comes from your "center", if so, what physical structure is this center that allows for this very real thing to flow from?

Quote:
Ki is energy and thus even it follows the principles of energy also. So to study the ways of Ki you would also start by just locating and following the principles of energy the same as you would if you are talking about force or effort or whatever other label you have for the energy coming at you.
Okay Ki is energy what are the properties of this energy? is it heat, light, electricity? how is it different than force? how does it manifest itself physically?

That is all the time I have for questions now. I think it is probably enough to focus on answering anyway.

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Old 12-10-2011, 03:25 AM   #21
graham christian
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Re: Shuhari

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
To me Harmony and Peace are concepts, not principles. As concepts they are also ENDSTATES of aikido...not something that is transmitted. To me, something that would be transmitted would be knowledge of some kind that effectively would lead or enable Harmony and Peace. What knowledge is being transmitted through the methodology of Aikido? knowledge on the mental, physical, and spiritual dimensions.....how does the methodology of aikido accomplish this?

Universal love is a concept or an endstate...not a principle. Again, what are the "things" we do in aikido that enable this endstate?

Principle of Center: not sure what this is. We sure talk about it alot in Aikido, but heck if I really know what it means. I think it is good to be balanced, have your balance, and for your uke to not have it. having balance or center would be based on your structure as it relates to gravity.

Non-resistance: I think this is a concept too. It connotes a particular constraint or ethic

Principle of Blending: Again, how is this a principle...it might at best be a technique, tactic, or method to make some particular action happen. What is blending though and what is it's significance and application?

Principle of Ki Flow: A concept. Alot of people have this concept in their mind about KI flow and what it is and isn't. What is Ki...and how does it flow? if it flows, where does it come from...it must have a position or origin in order to measure flow. I suppose it comes from your "center", if so, what physical structure is this center that allows for this very real thing to flow from?

Okay Ki is energy what are the properties of this energy? is it heat, light, electricity? how is it different than force? how does it manifest itself physically?

That is all the time I have for questions now. I think it is probably enough to focus on answering anyway.
Wow! I like it. Good challenging questions.

First peace and harmony. Yes, as I said they are the results of principles used properly and thus are indeed end states. So your use of 'transmitted' was different to mine. I used it to mean that as a result of my applying principles the effect of a harmonious feeling and peacefulness experienced by the uke was a transmission of what I was bringing about.

Anyway I see you mean how to teach such.

Well the methodology I use is first to locate principles, second to get students applying those principles to a hold, an attack, and thus seeing the efficacy of it. Straightforward, not complicated but that doesn't mean it's easy. Learn principle, apply, thus make it yours, see where and when it applies and to what until it's second nature to you. That's training, that's methodology.

Universal love is not an endstate it's a truth. It's an underlying state to be aligned with and experienced. At that point you could call it an 'end state' loosely but I would say it's a recovery of a lost spiritual state.

Now to enable us to achieve this we must learn which principles are inherent in universal love. Then we can take them and with discipline use them in Aikido. This I do as part and parcel of my Aikido.

Center: Once again we would have to study center to see what it actually is. We can see it is a principle of some kind for everything has a center. So we start by seeing what it does. To be a universal principle it must do something which thus explains the uniform resultant effects.

Let's take yin and yang for example. The expansion and contraction. From where? From center. So we can see it is the point that energy goes out from and where energy goes in to. It's a point, the source of yin and yang. Yet it of it'self is neither yin nor yang. It of it'self is neutral. It is a point of non-resistance. So I would say that center is the principle of non-resistance.

If this is true then we can test it as a principle and find that it is non-resistance which brings about true stability and balance. As I've said before, spiritually I call it the gateless gate. The truth of all principles are spiritual.

Again, this can be taught and practiced. Thus it can be applied.

Blending: To join and be with, in alignment with. Thus not contesting. Aikido no? This is an end state, something to be accomplished so it is not a principle but is a result of applying principle or principles. It is an aim.

Which principles lead to this is the question. Herein lies part of the discipline of Aikido. When you are not blending successfully then you are either applying the wrong principle to the situation, not applying the right group of principles or individual one or simply relying on something other than principle.

Ki flow: Not a concept, a reality. Life energy. It comes from true spirit. In fact you could say it is true spirit. Principles? Well study life energy and see what it does.

Let me introduce you to the most basic life organism. Therein lies the first clue. Don't concentrate on what the correct name for this organism is but merely the fact that it is an organism. Now look at all life forms. All organisms of various structures. There's another word as well, organic.

Life organizes. So we are looking at what life, what spirit does. It organizes. It brings about alignment and in fact it realigns when things are becoming misaligned. Ki does this. That's one thing it does. It gives life to, it energizes. It brings about aliveness.

As well as that it being an energy it thus follows a path and thus in doing so we have flow.

Life meets and joins with life. Ki joins with 'opponets Ki' and thus aligns naturally but it is only our mind, ego or whatever label you want to use that interferes and denies and trys to insist on other paths. Ki thus knows where to flow to but we are not aware enough to follow it is more the truth of the matter.

The source is you. Now if you are in the here and now spiritually, as some say in the moment then you are being centered and thus being with center. Thus structurally it will flow from center.

If you are confused or scared or daydreaming then you are not spiritually centered, in the moment and thus your Ki is all over the place. Troubled, thus you may revert to some other thing like force or running ha,ha.

Kiatsu as I have pointed out before is real. If I was to do Kiatsu on you you would feel like your body was getting a refill of energy, for it would join your own Ki and reinvigorate your body.

Add to that that Ki is non-resistive then you can see that it reaches through undisturbed and thus you can get an idea of what extending Ki means. In fact you always extend and receive Ki but you should never draw your Ki in. A subtle difference but a big one which explains zanshin and you could say in your line of work alertness. When you are alert then your Ki is extended out continuously yet at the same time you are comfortably receiving in without withdrawing your Ki. Zanshin.

Even in practicing kokyudosa You can train and discipline this for as soon as the partners Ki is drawn in or withdrawn you will find you take their center easily. A nice drill actually.

Enough for now.

Regards. G.
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