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Old 12-08-2011, 02:46 PM   #151
HL1978
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
There are a group of people who are superior martial artists because they know the secret of Aiki in Aikido. They know that they know the secret because they know that they do.

They see O Sensei and they see him demonstrating the secret. In fact, they seem to believe that this secret is the only important thing that he was showing or even the only thing that he was showing. The rest of us can look at O Sensei performing the unmovable feats that they believe are proof of him doing what they are doing and we see him doing different things. I don't see the secret of in yo ho body body conditioning and neutralization. I see a combination of grounding, ki extension, and disrupting Ukes connection to the ground. The fact that I see other explanations is proof that I am an inferior martial artist who doesn't see the secret. Pretty much the entire Aikido world is inferior according to their way of looking at things.

We can't discuss what various teachers themselves said, or what O Sensei said, only what people in the IS camp say they said... even when we have them on film. Failure to conform to this rule results in endless personal attacks. Convenient.

Jun, can we have a non-IS section on Aikiweb?

This discussion has IS in the title so of course IS people are free to post in it. If they don't want any other perspectives discussed then they could start a sort of private discussion with parameters that only IS perspectives are welcome. Fine with me.
Lets look a bit at something I said earlier, regarding letting energy stay in you or go through you, and how one could view the statement "aiki is love."

As I mentioned earlier, a teacher/IS person is being reallying nice to you if they are throwing you in such a manner that the power goes through you. They are showing "love" in that manner instead of using a shorter impulse to cause more pain or a stronger colision with the ground or other object. Using big arm movements (short vs long impulse), moving with your partner to blend in the "external" mode of movement (again a longer impulse), lessens the impact to a fully resisting opponent opon connection to their center. Of course, without connecting to the center of your opponents mass, these large "blending" motions are less likely to work on a fully resisiting opponent, whereas smaller motions are even less likely to work than the larger ones without a connection to the opponents center.

Why you may see so many people bring in IS into every discussion, is not because of some religious furvor, though it may appear to be. Once you are exposed, you see it nearly everywhere as it not only breathes life into the founders words in a rather concrete and tangible manner, but glimmers regarding the how and why of his movement begin to appear when you watch his videos.
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Old 12-08-2011, 02:56 PM   #152
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Lets look a bit at something I said earlier, regarding letting energy stay in you or go through you, and how one could view the statement "aiki is love."

As I mentioned earlier, a teacher/IS person is being reallying nice to you if they are throwing you in such a manner that the power goes through you. They are showing "love" in that manner instead of using a shorter impulse to cause more pain or a stronger colision with the ground or other object. Using big arm movements (short vs long impulse), moving with your partner to blend in the "external" mode of movement (again a longer impulse), lessens the impact to a fully resisting opponent opon connection to their center. Of course, without connecting to the center of your opponents mass, these large "blending" motions are less likely to work on a fully resisiting opponent, whereas smaller motions are even less likely to work than the larger ones without a connection to the opponents center.

Why you may see so many people bring in IS into every discussion, is not because of some religious furvor, though it may appear to be. Once you are exposed, you see it nearly everywhere as it not only breathes life into the founders words in a rather concrete and tangible manner, but glimmers regarding the how and why of his movement begin to appear when you watch his videos.
or the whole "absolute non-resistance" thing. Some might take that to mean we get out of the way, we don't impede uke, but since starting on this type of training I've seen how I can remain stationary, not move out of the way or get off the line and let you collide with me, yet still maintain "absolute non-resistance" with the forces you are sending at me. Even better when they find themselves in ikkyo and I still haven't moved my body... I'm standing on that damned floating bridge... and I don't plan on getting off it any time soon.
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:06 PM   #153
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
or the whole "absolute non-resistance" thing. Some might take that to mean we get out of the way, we don't impede uke, but since starting on this type of training I've seen how I can remain stationary, not move out of the way or get off the line and let you collide with me, yet still maintain "absolute non-resistance" with the forces you are sending at me. Even better when they find themselves in ikkyo and I still haven't moved my body... I'm standing on that damned floating bridge... and I don't plan on getting off it any time soon.
Yep, I would agree, just as in the push/pull example given earlier, though one will figure out that you can not resist, but be moved and its ok because you won't loose your balance, or it may result in aite bouncing off you as you as you mentioned above.

Actually, Jason, it would be a good thread to put a whole bunch of these phrases up for analysis.
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:21 PM   #154
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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.... Some might take that to mean we get out of the way, we don't impede uke, but since starting on this type of training I've seen how I can remain stationary, not move out of the way or get off the line and let you collide with me, yet still maintain "absolute non-resistance" with the forces you are sending at me.
... I'm standing on that damned floating bridge... and I don't plan on getting off it any time soon.
Typically a very disconcerting feeling for an uke...even more so with someone boxing you or trying to shoot you. They don't know where their power went, or why it...wait for it....echo's back at them. And forget trying to explain it to them...their heads go on tilt. One well known shihan and BJJ'er tried throwing my ass all over the place, then blindsiding me with a right cross... Later he told people "I couldn't do anything to him...He tried explaining it to me, but I didn't have clue what he was talking about." And yet I didn't use a single waza. And for our Mr. Mcgrew....guess what? I did not stand still.
There is a reason Takeda, Sagawa, Ueshiba, Kodo, hisa etc... were so obsessed with this training and didn't give crap about waza. There is simply nothing better. Anywhere. There is a reason it takes over dojos and people get obsssed...a damn good reason.

"The way of the mountain echo is intent, standing in the center of the connection between the ki of heaven and the ki of the earth"...Morihei Ueshiba
Once again an Asian classic that the post war guys self-admittedly couldn't wait for him to stop talking about so they could do more wrist twisties.

But....here he we have Mr. McGrew not being able to define it...and yet telling us, aikido went by it and is more than things like this. Things he knows nothing about. Strange logic indeed.
Dan
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:21 PM   #155
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Actually, Jason, it would be a good thread to put a whole bunch of these phrases up for analysis.
I'd participate in that thread. Apart from the fun that is the training and it's good fun, one of the things I've enjoyed most about this training is how it's helped me to understand many of the things that Ueshiba said and did that nobody was ever able to explain to me.
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Old 12-08-2011, 08:29 PM   #156
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

IS gets brought into every discussion because there are so damn many aikidoka practicing IS these days. Banish them all and you're banishing 3/4 of the main posters on aikiweb. That Harden guy with his mind-leading tricks... It's like Ionesco's Rhinoceros. Look around you. There are rhinocerosses everywhere.
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Old 12-09-2011, 02:50 AM   #157
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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This discussion has IS in the title so of course IS people are free to post in it.
Thank you very much!

My question indeed addressed people who practice the internals of aikido in the specific way which is synonym with IS/IP here. I was very happy when I found aikiweb being a place where those internal aspects - which are inherent in aikido - are discussed by people who have a certain way and understanding and who are obviously skilled using this way.
I was curious to better understand, how this certain people understand something, we teach at us.

But you conquered this/my thread - like you did with others - to pursue your personal crusade against ... I don't really know against what?

I'm not involved in the "problems" of the aikido scene in the US, and I'm obviously not taken serious by you.
So I'm watching this debate with an outsider's view. Your posts seem to be just personal. And they seem to be really hot tempered.
Having practiced aikido for some 18 years and being a scholar of the arts with theological, philosophical and historical background I don't see that your writings question the reader in a factual sense and they don't lead to new knowledge or insights. They just state (not even posit), what you want to be stated.

Quote:
Jun, can we have a non-IS section on Aikiweb?
I really don't understand how aikido can be practiced without using internal aspects?
Isn't this common to all styles of aikido: Using the tanden, using in and yo. Using different forms of breathing. Using imagination/visualisation. And so on ... Doesn't everyone who practices aikido makes use of things like this, internal aspects of using the body? And doesn't everyone who practices try to "create" a body and a feeling that allows to use body and mind in a way that may be called "aiki"?
Endo sensei sometimes askes the students: How do you make aiki??? How??? And then makes us try to explore ...

True: There are different ways of understanding, doing, learning these aspects. Maybe almost contradicting ways.
I had some very interesting arguments with people who do ki-aikido (Yoshigasaki doshu) whether the "one point" is the tanden. Or if you nee to create cerstain skills of the body when it's the mind which leads the body anyway.
And I would be very glad to learn whether I understand (and like) what Dan Harden teaches. I was glad to be thrown by Ikeda sensei and to get to know his approach (or the first steps ...) I am glad to have my teacher who brings his experiences of koryu whith him and makes aiki more understandable. And so on.
You can discuss, study, practice. You can like or not, integrate or sort out. Depending on what you, your teacher, your style, your line of tradition think to be essential.

But I don't see how you can practice without the internal aspects at all. And how can you discuss aikido without talking about internal aspects? This wouldn't be aikido no more but would be just hollow.

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 12-09-2011 at 02:58 AM.
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Old 12-12-2011, 08:35 PM   #158
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

I think you need to define Aiki and internal.

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Thank you very much!

My question indeed addressed people who practice the internals of aikido in the specific way which is synonym with IS/IP here. I was very happy when I found aikiweb being a place where those internal aspects - which are inherent in aikido - are discussed by people who have a certain way and understanding and who are obviously skilled using this way.
I was curious to better understand, how this certain people understand something, we teach at us.

But you conquered this/my thread - like you did with others - to pursue your personal crusade against ... I don't really know against what?

I'm not involved in the "problems" of the aikido scene in the US, and I'm obviously not taken serious by you.
So I'm watching this debate with an outsider's view. Your posts seem to be just personal. And they seem to be really hot tempered.
Having practiced aikido for some 18 years and being a scholar of the arts with theological, philosophical and historical background I don't see that your writings question the reader in a factual sense and they don't lead to new knowledge or insights. They just state (not even posit), what you want to be stated.

I really don't understand how aikido can be practiced without using internal aspects?
Isn't this common to all styles of aikido: Using the tanden, using in and yo. Using different forms of breathing. Using imagination/visualisation. And so on ... Doesn't everyone who practices aikido makes use of things like this, internal aspects of using the body? And doesn't everyone who practices try to "create" a body and a feeling that allows to use body and mind in a way that may be called "aiki"?
Endo sensei sometimes askes the students: How do you make aiki??? How??? And then makes us try to explore ...

True: There are different ways of understanding, doing, learning these aspects. Maybe almost contradicting ways.
I had some very interesting arguments with people who do ki-aikido (Yoshigasaki doshu) whether the "one point" is the tanden. Or if you nee to create cerstain skills of the body when it's the mind which leads the body anyway.
And I would be very glad to learn whether I understand (and like) what Dan Harden teaches. I was glad to be thrown by Ikeda sensei and to get to know his approach (or the first steps ...) I am glad to have my teacher who brings his experiences of koryu whith him and makes aiki more understandable. And so on.
You can discuss, study, practice. You can like or not, integrate or sort out. Depending on what you, your teacher, your style, your line of tradition think to be essential.

But I don't see how you can practice without the internal aspects at all. And how can you discuss aikido without talking about internal aspects? This wouldn't be aikido no more but would be just hollow.
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:17 AM   #159
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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I think you need to define Aiki and internal.
"Big" question. I'll try to sketch out ...

As far as I understand and try to practice aiki , it has got two main aspects:
First aspect is to organise oneself, body and feeling (kimochi) to get an integrated unity. This aspect of aiki can be practiced and developed through solo exercises.

Second aspect is connecting one's own body and feeling to another body by what we call "atari" (engegement, connection). And then to affect and controll the structure (not the movement) of this other body.

The first aspect is required to make the second aspect work.

Internal (I'm not talking about "IS" because this to me seems to be a specific, certain way of internal work.) to me means using not outer movements, but one's own body structure. In an extreme case there will be no visible movement of tori but uke's structure is affected nevertheless. The work is done within the body. (This doesn't mean at all that you don't move anymore!)
How this is done, there are different methods, ways: It may start with using the internal deep musculature whithin the torso and within the extremities, muscle we often are not aware of. Then it means using visualization which helps to bulid up and use the internal structure of our body. The using ki control, but in a different way than it is understood and done in ki-aikido as far es I knwo. Using in and yo aspects, like it also can be found in koryu. .... Things like that.

This in my eyes - even if I am not very skilfull and even if my describing is worse and completely incomplete - is the essence of how aikido works as far as I understand it. There is a lot to learn after, whithin and behind waza. And I don't know, how it can be done otherwise.

Is this more clear?

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 12-13-2011 at 03:20 AM.
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Old 12-13-2011, 10:03 AM   #160
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

To somewhat adjoin to the "definitions" and "sayings" discussion that's happening - while tying it back to the original thread title, here's some of how I look at "this stuff" (a lot I've been taught, some I've worked out, all is an ongoing exploration).

There's basically two natural forces at work on your body at any time: gravity pulling you down (Ki of Heaven) and the ground pushing you up (Ki of Earth). You can manipulate to a degree how your body relays these forces inside yourself - just via training your intent, which is something of a skill. You can further condition your body to better propagate these two directional forces (there's many different methods of doing this around a basically similar core set of principles) while also connecting your insides to build an unusual kind of strength. These things get combined over time and can give a significant functional power advantage in martial arts and sport - but by themselves do not necessarily replace functional application skill in martial arts and sports.

A side note - power here should be taken in a few ways. Power as in raw strength, is certainly there because you're using more of the whole body together as a connected unit, taking advantage of the natural elasticity of the ligaments and tendons, in addition to the raw strength of the bones and muscles - functioning as a connected and collective whole (again, caveats on purity of development notwithstanding). It's also a kind of "hidden" strength because it is less observable on the outside what's happening unless you know what to look for or feel- and even then can be masked in other ways (note: there's a reason so many traditional folks do demos wearing loose fitting kimono robey type things).

So there's a skill component and a conditioning component. Gross oversimplification, and there's lots of degrees of purity vs. application - depending on your approach - but this SHOULD (in my opinion) be thought of as very foundational work done to rewire the body and mind in order to better practice any martial art. And there may be advantages to one approach over another in terms of how it's packaged into a specific martial art or sport (performance enhancement vs. speed to market, etc.) -- but until even the basics are more widely practiced (if that is even feasible or likely), it's kind of a moot discussion on a broad level until there's a wider/deeper baseline level of skill/conditioning that more have achieved.

And all this aside - it doesn't mean just because you have IS skill/development you are a marvelous aikido practitioner, or MMA competitor, or BJJ player. There's absolutely advantages that are gained AND at least a number of traditional arts basically call out the conditioning/skills as the core component (AI-KI-DO anybody?). And if you're looking at the sayings of Ueshiba, I agree very strongly with what others have stated regarding comparing them back to Chinese sayings -- it does appear he was making his own case for "See, I get it, I'm in the club, too" with regard to tying his practice to the greater understanding of yin/yang, in/yo, etc. that was fundamental to the cosmology in Asian philosophy/culture - and externalized (pardon the pun) into a very practical form & application.

As always, FWIW and YMMV
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Old 12-13-2011, 10:05 AM   #161
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

My current working definition for "aiki" is using your partner / opponent's sensory inputs (including the intuition or 6th sense) to move their mind so they they move their bodies. Hence the statement made by one "aiki" teacher (I don't precisely remember which one said it) that "If you understand what was just done to you, it wasn't aiki". If you read interviews with folks who took ukemi from or tested the Founder, uniformly they don't use "active" verbs. It's never "he threw me" or "he did this or that..." It always seemed to be phrased "And I found myself flying across the room..." There was always this sense of the inexplicable...

Steering clear of the evil "I" word, it starts with how you organize your own body and how the intent can give you structure rather than the conventional use of muscular tension. This is usually trained starting with direct physical contact to provide immediate and increasingly subtle feedback. Later on, you start to realize that your partner / opponent begins to be affected long before he actually touches you. The mere act of organizing your self into a coherent and balanced whole has observable, tangible effect on a partner / opponent starting when he puts his attention on you. In fact, the REALLY good guys can effect you even when you have not consciously put your attention on them. In effect, they "hack your system". So, the result is that the act of using ones intent to organize ones structure eventually leads to the ability to use that intent to mess around with the other guy's structure.

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Old 12-13-2011, 10:10 AM   #162
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
My current working definition for "aiki" is using your partner / opponent's sensory inputs (including the intuition or 6th sense) to move their mind so they they move their bodies. Hence the statement made by one "aiki" teacher (I don't precisely remember which one said it) that "If you understand what was just done to you, it wasn't aiki". If you read interviews with folks who took ukemi from or tested the Founder, uniformly they don't use "active" verbs. It's never "he threw me" or "he did this or that..." It always seemed to be phrased "And I found myself flying across the room..." There was always this sense of the inexplicable...

Steering clear of the evil "I" word, it starts with how you organize your own body and how the intent can give you structure rather than the conventional use of muscular tension. This is usually trained starting with direct physical contact to provide immediate and increasingly subtle feedback. Later on, you start to realize that your partner / opponent begins to be affected long before he actually touches you. The mere act of organizing your self into a coherent and balanced whole has observable, tangible effect on a partner / opponent starting when he puts his attention on you. In fact, the REALLY good guys can effect you even when you have not consciously put your attention on them. In effect, they "hack your system". So, the result is that the act of using ones intent to organize ones structure eventually leads to the ability to use that intent to mess around with the other guy's structure.
You bring up a good point - how you are organized does affect the other guy's perception of you. I think back to descriptions I've heard of sword duels where one opponent admits defeat because the other "has no openings".
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Old 01-01-2012, 04:06 PM   #163
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
You bring up a good point - how you are organized does affect the other guy's perception of you. I think back to descriptions I've heard of sword duels where one opponent admits defeat because the other "has no openings".
Quite an interesting thing to feel and to face. It is not something that is happenstance or luck, nor is it relegated to technique and timing. Most will struggle all their lives and yet never attain it. It will remain the ghost it was at the beginning all the way to the end for the pursued the wrong things.

Heaven/earth/man yet again (early 1500's) :
Tsukahara Bokuden
Founder of Shinto ryu
Founder of Hitotsu -tachi (one strike school):
After confining himself to Kashima shrine for one thousand days of meditation noted:
Swordsmanship can be divided into three spheres;
The advantage of the heavens
The advantage of the Earth
The combination of the earth and the heavens (manipulated by man)
This is the secret of Hitotsu-tachi

Happy new Year
Dan
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Old 01-01-2012, 05:08 PM   #164
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Heaven/earth/man:

Swordsmanship can be divided into three spheres;
The advantage of the heavens
The advantage of the Earth
The combination of the earth and the heavens (manipulated by man)
This is the secret of Hitotsu-tachi......Tsukahara Bokuden (early 1500's)
"The way of the mountain echo is the spirit of standing in the center of the connection between the ki of heaven and the ki of the earth"....Osensei (1930's)

Both men were known to have extradorninary -weirdly potent- power according to the norms of their day-over four hundred years apart.
Dan
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Old 01-03-2012, 11:50 AM   #165
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Hi there to do with stance, in my training there a two, first called kamae with fee wide apart front foot slightly turner out with the heels in alignment, back leg only slightly bent with front leg well bent so you cant see your toes over your knee, this stance will be more identified by those who practice Yoshinkan style Aikido.

Second is simply hanmi, front foot forward toes only very slightly turned out or straight, slightly bent knee, rear leg points almost 90 degrees (if your right leg is forward) to the left, in what many call a T posture, with the back lefg slightly bent. The distance between the feet in comparrison to Kamae is at at least half the distance. Also the character HAN means Half, so HANMI means half stance, it also means you are showing half of your body to your opponent cutting down his options on how he may strike you, giving you an advantage. I beleive Saito Sensei (Iwama style Aikido) stressed the impoortance of hanmi over kamae.

Lastly a curve ball, there is shizentai, natural standing posture. Training like this in some ways is more realistic, in the sense you may not be in Kamae or hanmi when attacked, you would be in shizentai.
Oddly enough, if we examine our body movement when we practice aikido in fact we naturally move between all three,so to my understanding at the moment neither one should have more importance placed on it than another. However they should be trained and understood fully in there own right, only then can we see the illusion and truly understand no stance. In my humble oppinion.

Andy B
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:00 PM   #166
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

On internal power, it is in this moment in you now. never in the future or past, its the eternal now, no voice to see no hert to hear. Heaven is right where you are standing and that is the place to train.
go through the small "gap". you creat space in your mind by "seeing space" this frees your mind from thought so your actions are not dominated by your thought, you access the internal power of you now, in this moment.
Your actions have no trace of thought or emotion "i hate this technique/person/situation so I will ppower throught it to get away from it"
if you cant disidentify with your mind and see who you really are everything else will be for naught. IMHHO.

Andy B
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:01 PM   #167
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

[QUOTE
go through the small "gap". you create space in your mind by "seeing space" this frees your mind from thought so your actions are not dominated by your thought, you access the internal power of you now, in this moment.[/quote]

Also on this point, you are neither dominated by your emotions this is important. you simply accept what is, in this case an opponent coming towards you, placing no judgement thought or emotion to the scene in front of you, you truly see this person is acting out his thoughts emotions and judgements which were created by the mind, he has temporarily "become his thoughts" he has mistaken his thoughts for who he truly "is". Here is the crucial bit if it could be described as such, when you see this in real life it creates compassion for your oppenent, because why would you want to hurt somebody who does not know what they are doing?

Jesus said "forgive them for they do not know what they do", I beleive these words were pointing this.

Thus your action becomes enlightened and the power wont be one of "trying to control the situation"
but simply let it be and I move in such a way neither harm has come to you or your opponent. In this sense harmony has been maintained you didnt "see it as violence" just a moment where you became intensly present so no more suffering could take place.

This is also devoid of time. Time is almost meaningless in this connected state of oneness with your attacker, imagine you could talk to an animal and asked what time is it he would say "well its now", you dont act from past experiences i.e if he does this i wil do that. No thats your mind speaking again. The idea of an attacker also becomes meaningless, you see the attacker as yourself, a human being who has temporarily become his emotion or thought and is acting it out, which is something we all do!
The level of succes in you training in this manor can be described as how peacefull you "feel" inside.

For me this is the essence of all martial arts and religions. IMHHO

Any thoughts?

In Budo Andy

Last edited by TheAikidoka : 01-03-2012 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:11 PM   #168
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
Quote:
go through the small "gap". you creat space in your mind by "seeing space" this frees your mind from thought so your actions are not dominated by your thought, you access the internal power of you now, in this moment.
Also on this point, you are neither dominated by your emotions this is important. you simply accept what is, in this case an opponent coming towards you, placing no judgement thought or emotion to the scene in front of you, you truly see this person is acting out his thoughts emotions and judgements which were created by the mind, he has temporarily "become his thoughts" he has mistaken his thoughts for who he truly "is" Here is the crucial bit if it could be described as such when you see this in real life it creates compassion for your oppenent, because why would you want to hurt somebody who does not know what they are doing?

Jesus said "forgive them for they do not know what they do", I beleive these words were pointing this.

Thus your action becomes enlightened and the power wont be one of "trying to control the situation"
but simply let it be and I move in such a way neither harm has come to you or your opponent. In this sense harmony has been maintained you didnt "see it as violence" just a moment where you became intensly present so no more suffering could take place.

This is also devoid of time. Time is almost meaningless in this connected state of oneness with your attacker, imagine you could talk to an animal and asked what time is it he would say "well its now". The idea of an attacker also becomes meaningless, you see the attacker as yourself, a human being who has temporarily become his emotion or thought and is acting it out, which is something we all do!

For me this is the essence of all martial arts and religions. IMHHO

Any thoughts?

In Budo Andy
Yes - there's nothing wrong with the above, but it really isn't what most people are talking about when they're referring to "internal power".

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-03-2012, 01:22 PM   #169
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Yes - there's nothing wrong with the above, but it really isn't what most people are talking about when they're referring to "internal power".

Best,Chris
It is the place where true internal power is accessed from, when you stop everything else going on in the mind.
Koichi tohei said "the mind leads the body" descates said "i think therefore I am". Both are mistaken. you are not you mind. its the talking that stops the access. how many stories of you heard of people being able to pull off often super human feats when there has been a disaster, they are able to do this because all identification and mind activity has ceased, and they access this power through deep being and compassion. There is truly no thing more powerfull than love.

Also I remember reading somewhere on Aikido Journal O`sensei said something like" nobody is born with more or less internal/spiritual power than anyone else, its your state of being that matters".

Andy B

Last edited by TheAikidoka : 01-03-2012 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:35 PM   #170
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
It is the place where true internal power is accessed from, when you stop everything else going on in the mind.
Koichi tohei said "the mind leads the body" descates said "i think therefore I am". Both are mistaken. you are not you mind. its the talking that stops the access. how many stories of you heard of people being able to pull off often super human feats when there has been a disaster, they are able to do this because all identification and mind activity has ceased, and they access this power through deep being and compassion. There is truly no thing more powerfull than love.

Andy B
Like I said, what you're talking about is not what most of the other folks are talking about. Not that mental state has no relation - just that what you're talking about is not what's being discussed.

Also, the same thing goes for the "lifting the car off the child" thing that you're talking about. Good stuff - but not really what most of the folks talking about "internal power" are discussing.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-03-2012, 01:44 PM   #171
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Like I said, what you're talking about is not what most of the other folks are talking about. Not that mental state has no relation - just that what you're talking about is not what's being discussed.

Also, the same thing goes for the "lifting the car off the child" thing that you're talking about. Good stuff - but not really what most of the folks talking about "internal power" are discussing.

Best,

Chris
I`m sorry chris I understand where your coming from, but if you look deeper at what i have said, you will find it is the exact same thing. No different!
Firstly this is not a state of mind! It is a deep state of "BEING" very alive very alert and extremely present.
Secondly nobody has more internal power than anybody else, its your depth of pressence, feeling the inner aliveness of this moment nothing else exists nothing else ever will.

I was practicing in this manor one evening and the enrgy field alive in me that I witnessed was overwhelming and my training partner felt it too, than it was gone, like all forms, but to maintain that is now my goal.

I dont think there is anything more internally powerfull than this.

Andy B

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Old 01-03-2012, 01:51 PM   #172
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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I`m sorry chris I understand where your coming from, but if you look deeper at what i have said, you will find it is the exact same thing. No different! nobody has more internal power than anybody else, its your depth of pressence feeling the inner aliveness of this moment nothing else exists nothing else ever will.

I was practicing in this manor one evening and the enrgy field alive in me that I witnessed was overwhelming and my training partner felt it too, than it was gone, like all forms, but to maintain that is now my goal.

I dont think there is anything more internally powerfull than this.

Andy B
Sorry, but you really don't understand what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is a specific physical process, capable of being physically conditioned and developed, that makes measurable, physical changes in the body. Of course, the mental state is important and essential, but that's far from the whole burrito.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-03-2012, 02:16 PM   #173
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

There is always something else to do ;-)

Did the buddha attain internal/spiritual power through training something?
I doubt it, all forms will die, gone gone gone forever gone.
The physical is only a very small part of the whole, there is more emptiness that makes you than physical matter. Its from stilnness that the internal power is accessed not from doing more things ;-) once this has been understood you realise the power and genius of Aikido.
All Aikido teaching points to this eternally present state of being, not a state of mind, mind doesnt even come into it.
This is why Osensei said Aikido is for everyone. Everyone has access to this power. how much more power do you want?

It is has and always will be in you, it cannot be anywhere or in any other form I.e some kind of training form, martial art form, any type of form will not get you there.
It simply is in you now. ;-)

Andy B

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Old 01-03-2012, 02:30 PM   #174
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

I will try to clarify wehat I mean.

I enjoy Aikido because that is the form that seems to agree with me. But I do not get internal power from practicing Aikido form, that would never get me there. I realised this after practicing for fifteen years.

What was Imissing, what was lacking in this moment. My own stillness/emptiness/internal power/spiritual power. Whatever you call it does not quite make it, this is because we are oin the level of thought. the level of being is much much deeper.

The power comes from deep presence and aliveness in this moment in you. it does not come from some excercise and maybe I will fell it/get it in the future. No your back on the level of mind.

Internal power cannot function in the realm of mind though judgements labeling. its through your eternal power of presentness no more no less.

Andy B
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:38 PM   #175
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Andrew Bedford wrote: View Post
I will try to clarify wehat I mean.

I enjoy Aikido because that is the form that seems to agree with me. But I do not get internal power from practicing Aikido form, that would never get me there. I realised this after practicing for fifteen years.

What was Imissing, what was lacking in this moment. My own stillness/emptiness/internal power/spiritual power. Whatever you call it does not quite make it, this is because we are oin the level of thought. the level of being is much much deeper.

The power comes from deep presence and aliveness in this moment in you. it does not come from some excercise and maybe I will fell it/get it in the future. No your back on the level of mind.

Internal power cannot function in the realm of mind though judgements labeling. its through your eternal power of presentness no more no less.

Andy B
Like I said, that's all great - but not what I'm talking about. Just calling it by the same name won't make it so.

Best,

Chris

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