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Old 12-05-2011, 09:16 AM   #76
phitruong
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Re: Principles of pinning

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
So what, you will incapacitate them without mercy? This is a kind of message you will send to the world after 30 years of aikido practice?
sometimes you just have to remove stupidity out of the gene pool.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 12-05-2011, 09:19 AM   #77
Marc Abrams
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Re: Principles of pinning

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Nor with delusion about what one can really do if the pinned fights back.

Do you remember Amdur's story about what he thougt he could do with his vital points striking against his judo friend?

Sometimes Darwin is smiling but sometimes Pavlov is the one who is smiling.
Demetrio:

I save the delusional world for my psychology practice. I do not pretend to be invulnerable. Just the opposite is a truer approach. I am vulnerable to being hurt and killed like anybody else. I use the vulnerability as vital information in staying alive. If I could not use the superior position that a pin can provide to my advantage, then I look to create space and time to remain safe. Then again, if I a genuinely concerned about my safety (because of the obvious danger of the attacker ) AND I am lucky enough to be able to gain a tactical advantage in a conflict, I would not be so foolish as to look to pin the person. I look at the pin as a part of our practice. I use the moving the person into the pin and the pin itself as a means of discovering and maintaining awareness as to my other options.

In other words, Darwin and Pavlov dine together frequently !

marc abrams
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Old 12-05-2011, 09:20 AM   #78
Marc Abrams
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Re: Principles of pinning

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
sometimes you just have to remove stupidity out of the gene pool.
Phil:

Did you have dinner with Uncle Darwin again last night ?

Marc Abrams
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Old 12-05-2011, 09:31 AM   #79
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Re: Principles of pinning

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Is it really possible in such sterile environment as aikido dojo, where attacker actually helps very much Nage?

I'm trying to practice chokes as often as possible even if most of aikidoka hate it.

I think many aiki bunnies don't accept word ‘dominance' in aikido context

99.99% the rest of attackers will fight back continuously blinded by rage.
I'm seeing constant (and often derogatory) sweeping statements, and little else. If the aikidoka you train with are so utterly and completely useless, perhaps you should find another dojo? Perhaps that would help? :-(
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Old 12-05-2011, 09:31 AM   #80
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Re: Principles of pinning

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
So you suggest simply introduce a techniques from judo to fill up, what you perceive as a gaps in aikido pins? We all know that O sensei was well aware about judo repertoire of techniques having some visits in Kodokan. Being a Budo genius, he would also clearly perceive gaps in aikido pins. How come he didn't introduce more efficient pinning techniques from judo to replace those deficient from Daito ryu?

May be ultimate efficiency of aikido pins was not his main goal?
I guess the Aikido moves were developed to actually break the arm not hold someone down. In combat on the battlefield you would have no reason to try and hold someone or you would be killed by someone else. Like I said the Aikido pins are probably effective on most people, but they probably will not hold an experienced grappler for very long.
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Old 12-05-2011, 09:33 AM   #81
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Principles of pinning

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Demetrio:

I save the delusional world for my psychology practice.
A very sensible approach.

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Old 12-05-2011, 10:03 AM   #82
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Re: Principles of pinning

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
The issue I have with most submissions is the level of investment they require in order to obtain the tap. Of course there are some that work with a small level of investment, but most require dominance or control in order to get the tap. In addition, the reliance on pain as a compliance factor which may or may not work.

IMO, it is PRIMARY to have dominance and/or control of the fight, so in a reality, I am looking for other things other than a submission. Dominance and control lead to hand cuffs or other types of immobilization. Other than that...chokes work. I have found no one that cannot be choked. Again though, the dilemma is the level of investment a choke requires.

Not saying these are not good things to explore...just that submissions and chokes and pain compliance are SECONDARY to control.

FWIW, I am a BJJ Brown Belt and teach Military Combatives...so that is where i am coming from as far as perspective as well.
Congrats on the bjj brown belt, that is quite an achievement. I just got my blue last weekend but I am now probably one of the worst blue best in the country
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:48 AM   #83
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Re: Principles of pinning

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Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
I'm seeing constant (and often derogatory) sweeping statements, and little else. If the aikidoka you train with are so utterly and completely useless, perhaps you should find another dojo? Perhaps that would help? :-(
"Are you talking to me?? Are you talking to me?????"


[joke explanation]
this is of course quatation from a famous movie [/joke explanation]

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Old 12-05-2011, 01:02 PM   #84
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Re: Principles of pinning

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hi Kevin,
I like you comments about the dominance and chokes. I'm trying to practice chokes as often as possible even if most of aikidoka hate it. In the context of aikido however, not all chokes can be useful, as we want to preserve the mobility of Nage. So I prefer standing or kneeling chokes, where I can move fast in case of other attackers suddenly appear.

I think many aiki bunnies don't accept word ‘dominance' in aikido context; however from purely technical point of view you are completely right. No pin, choke or submission is possible without dominance on psychological and/or physical level.
I agree with your assessment. All submissions, chokes etc are all specific to a particular set of conditions. As Martial Artist and budoka, we really should explore the full spectrum of things so we have a decent understanding of what we should use and when.

My comments about the level of committal are something that I think is overlooked in many arts especially grappling arts like judo and BJJ. Conversely, I think Aikidoka don't think enough about these things. Weapons and potential other opponents are a sure game changer to the what you are willing to commit to as far as pins, chokes, and submissions.

As far as the comments on dominance....agreed, it is probably not the most PC way of putting it, but IMO we are in an art were I believe calling it what it is is very important. Call it anything else...then we lose perspective on what it is that we are really doing...IMO.

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Old 12-05-2011, 01:05 PM   #85
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Re: Principles of pinning

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Michael Neal wrote: View Post
Aikido pins are fairly easy to get out of, if you have someone's left arm pinned to the mat with ikkyo they can switch their hips by swinging their right leg underneath their left and sit through and you will in their guard. Having the arm is not enough to control them. That is if they know what they are doing, for the majority of situations it would probably be sufficient.

My choices for control would would be Kami Shiho Gatame and Kesa Gatame from Judo where you lock your opponents neck and spine to the mat. These work even on seasoned grapplers, the average person would have virtually no chance to escape if it was applied by someone with experience.

I would only use submissions in a very very serious situation where I had to immobilize someone quickly due to weapons or multiple attackers. It could be seen as a disproportionate use of force to choke someone unconscious or snap their arms.
Both VERY good techniques for pinning for sure Kami Shiho Gatame (the North/South) and Kesa Gatame are two very necessary pins to learn for all Martial Artist. Again though, these are VERY committed pins and you give up alot depending on the circumstances of your situation. Hence why they are not pins that are practiced in Aikido typically.

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Old 12-05-2011, 01:08 PM   #86
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Re: Principles of pinning

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Let's simply start with the Ikkyo pin. You are face down on the mat. The nage has graciously not driven one knee on top of a kidney, or into your floating ribs. The other knee was not driven down on top of your neck, or on top of your elbow. There are a host of other options which would preclude the person from functioning well (if at all) from that point forward. The nage is still free to move, either releasing the person on the ground, or causing pain and injury to the uke who does not truly recognize the dangers of being placed in that position.

Pins done very well can immobilize a person. Even if the person is not fully immobilized, the idea that you are going to fight your way to freedom while being so exposed to injury is simply comical in a Darwinian sense. Pins are simply pauses in time. Imagine waiting 1/2 hour in the Ikkyo pin in the middle of a bar, waiting for the police to arrive. Just as comical as thinking that the pin is an end-all to a situation.

One of my new students has me by about 75lbs and at least 5" in height. Good boxer to boot! I had him in an Ikkyo pin and he decided to test the pin. Every time he moved, I let some part of him know that he was being struck. He decided to move onto his stomach and up (like in wrestling). A simple rear-naked choke finally got across to him the futility of what he was doing.

To me, if you are in a pin and exposed to being genuinely hurt and you insist on thrashing about, Uncle Darwin is smiling down upon you..... The pin is a pause for both sides to take note of the current situation and respond accordingly. The graciousness of the pause should not be mistaken for weakness or strength.

Marc Abrams
That is the thing in "aikido" pins that is overlooked. The pin in and of itself may not be the BEST way to hold someone down, but it is the other things that go along with it that allow you to keep them down. There is a balance between your level and investment in a pin and the risk...for most of us that is.

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Old 12-05-2011, 01:18 PM   #87
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Re: Principles of pinning

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I'm not sure if you are right. But let assume you are right for a second. Only experienced fighter will recognize the capacity of Nage in such situation. 99.99% the rest of attackers will fight back continuously blinded by rage. So what, you will incapacitate them without mercy? This is a kind of message you will send to the world after 30 years of aikido practice?
That is a good point!

My personal philosophy...or at least how I reconcile this is ....my "aikido" and spiritual practice, ethics, and so forth are for ME....NOT for Uke. Uke may benefit from them, but then again, if he chooses NOT to there are two possible outcomes.

1. I have the skill necessary to deal with him effectively and protect him from unnecessary harm.
2. I don't have this skill and I have to create a situation in which I can control him and it leads him to greater harm.

I constantly practice to improve myself to increase the chances for #1 to occur. I understand that I may not have that level of skill, and I FORGIVE myself for that. As long as I strive for #1...then I think it is all we can do.

I think as long as your intentions are correct then you are good to go.

I cannot really expect in all situations for Nage to "listen" to my "reason", as you know it just doesn't happen for a multitude of reasons with people hell bent on doing you harm.

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Old 12-05-2011, 01:31 PM   #88
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Re: Principles of pinning

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Michael Neal wrote: View Post
I guess the Aikido moves were developed to actually break the arm not hold someone down. In combat on the battlefield you would have no reason to try and hold someone or you would be killed by someone else. Like I said the Aikido pins are probably effective on most people, but they probably will not hold an experienced grappler for very long.
Agreed. However, if you look at the practice of DR they really did take the whole arm breaking to another level. Think about what these guys were looking to do. Minimal investment for maximum gain. So As Marc and a few others have stated well...and you are also saying...the pin is a transitory state until you do something else. Grab a weapon, wait for a buddy, or disarm you opponent. Really a few seconds IMO.

Of course, Aikido, based on DR, essentially co-opted martial process in order to convey the message and explore force continuum to show some very specific things which while important to reality...get lost in translation to the masses.

I have no problems really with my "aikido" pins. That does not mean you cannot struggle or get out...but I do manage to stay ahead of nage's OODA process and dominate my nage so I don't really care if nage "believes" he is pinned or not...I adjust.

Looking at your comments earlier about getting out of aikido pins. I pride myself on doing that. I LOVE being taken down in an ikkyo, pinned and then "hipping" out of it to the guard and rolling you to mount. If Nage is NOT doing things right...AND his level of investment is too great and not appropriate or balanced...I am taking you for a ride by feeding off your input.

I know the ground rules have been set of the IS discussion. I don't want to go there, but to be honest, If I am doing things correctly with correct principles I am able to be there and control nage and not create a feedback loop that he can figure out...AND I can constantly adjust to what he is doing and keep him there.

For me as a military guy, this is very important. I want to be able to control someone effectively without having to invest so much in the way of physical position, weight, or pain. It is why I continue to seek out a better understanding of aiki.

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Old 12-05-2011, 01:33 PM   #89
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Re: Principles of pinning

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Michael Neal wrote: View Post
Congrats on the bjj brown belt, that is quite an achievement. I just got my blue last weekend but I am now probably one of the worst blue best in the country
And I am right there along with you as one of the worst Brown Belts! I am a pretty good Blue Belt I think, and an okay purple belt. BJJ kinda works that way for most of us!

I'll be back in VA next week, maybe I can make it out to train with you guys at Yamasaki Academy if I have time!

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Old 12-05-2011, 05:18 PM   #90
Michael Neal
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Re: Principles of pinning

I am sure you are much better than you think you are, you have been training consistently in multiple disciplines for a long time.

My BJJ club closed down last week but I will be moving to another Yamasaki school, either Woodbridge or Leesburg. I would love to meet up with you when you are here.

The reason I say that my rank exceeds my abilities is that I think the blue belt was more of a parting gift from my sensei than a true measure of my skills. But at the same time I respect him and his judgement, I have only been training BJJ for 1 year after 5 years absence from Judo.

I am thinking about trying to learn some internal skills too, do you know anyone who teaches or practices it around here?
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:22 PM   #91
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Re: Principles of pinning

well on the subject of pinning

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/12/...-bad-decision/
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Old 12-06-2011, 04:10 PM   #92
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Re: Principles of pinning

Michael,

http://www.kravworks.com/bioabout_us.html

Effie (Asher Willner) is a great guy. I didn't even knew they existed until June of this year. Long story, but I trained there this summer for a few weeks and if I were still in the area...these are the guys I would hook up with. Wonderful attitude and spirit. Awesome environment. I am going there next week probably when I am in town.

As far as IS stuff. Hunter Lonsberry is a good guy for you to hook up with. I think Dan Harden will be in Baltimore soon...I'd try and get with him by all means as that will get you hooked into the NOVA IS community. As you know from following the threads though, IS training is more than going to a few seminars. However, I would definitely go to one so you can experience what the guys are talking about...at least then you get to understand what all the fuss is about and put you in a better, more informed position to decide how it should be worked into your own training regime. ( I need to do more than I am doing).

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Old 12-06-2011, 05:07 PM   #93
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Re: Principles of pinning

cool, I will try to meet up with you.

I am a firm believer in IS, this is why I am still drawn to the aiki arts. I often use kokyu tanden ho in Judo and BJJ, sometimes I accidentally get it right and it seems like pure magic, Now I wish I could do it more often and on purpose.

Kokyu tanden ho is the single most useful thing I have learned in all my martial arts training, thanks Jim Sorrentino!

Last edited by Michael Neal : 12-06-2011 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 12-06-2011, 11:49 PM   #94
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Re: Principles of pinning

yea I agree Kokyu is awesome. I love playing with it on my knees in the guard. I will stick my arms out and let me fellow BJJer mess around with my arms while I connect with them and find their center. Sounds like you are having a very similar experience that I did when taking up BJJ. I need to get better at the Aiki stuff though...not enough hours in the day to train everything though!

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Old 12-07-2011, 09:00 AM   #95
Michael Neal
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Re: Principles of pinning

it's especially useful for me when we both are on our knees wrestling for top position
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Old 12-07-2011, 11:45 AM   #96
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Re: Principles of pinning

Kevin, Michael - I happen to be a BJJ Purple Belt and feel like I'm shit. A BJJ Brown belt seems impossible to me so well done. If you guys are ever in New Zealand come and train.

The issue of control that was raised is of course very valid, control is key, then from there you can do what you wish.

I think that some of the people who are NOT experienced in grappling missunderstand "control" from the BJJ perspective, it isn't about squashing your partner and then "muntering" them with some technique until they finally tap out (though you can do that of course) it is about being that much better than them that no matter what they do you are one step ahead, or able to counter anything they do. And of course this can be achieved from underneath as well - though it requires a somewhat different skill set.

In BJJ you can pin someone - but it tends not to be with a "arm hold" like Ikiyo, or the like, but more by body position.

I also think someones earlier comment about the problem with submissions being that you have to invest too much into them is a little incorrect (I think he cited MMA fights). If the adrenalin is pumping it is quite common to go for a submission, even though the outside observer knows that it isn't on, as you get a bit of tunnel vision. That's what happens. In less traumatic times a submission attempt flows from one to the next, myself and other BJJ practitioners would be quite willing to show how one thing leds to another, there can be a flow in grappling (not dissimilar to Aikido), grappling is like a game of chess - the art of submissions is in fact like the 10,000 or so final check mate moves, it is an intricate art in itself.
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Old 12-07-2011, 11:53 AM   #97
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Re: Principles of pinning

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Michael Neal wrote: View Post
The reason I say that my rank exceeds my abilities is that I think the blue belt was more of a parting gift from my sensei than a true measure of my skills. But at the same time I respect him and his judgement, I have only been training BJJ for 1 year after 5 years absence from Judo.
Michael - you'll know if you're worth a BJJ Blue belt if the people that walk in the door don't offer much of a challenge any more.(Unless that person is a 140 kg muscle bound monster). That's my simple theory.
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Old 12-07-2011, 12:06 PM   #98
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Re: Principles of pinning

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Matt Morris wrote: View Post
Michael - you'll know if you're worth a BJJ Blue belt if the people that walk in the door don't offer much of a challenge any more.(Unless that person is a 140 kg muscle bound monster). That's my simple theory.
This 63 kg bluebelt has it's limit in its own weigh+1/3...

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Old 12-07-2011, 12:12 PM   #99
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Principles of pinning

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Michael Neal wrote: View Post
Kokyu tanden ho is the single most useful thing I have learned in all my martial arts training, thanks Jim Sorrentino!
You're welcome, Michael!

Jim

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Old 12-07-2011, 12:14 PM   #100
Michael Neal
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Re: Principles of pinning

Matt, My Judo training is enough to handle most beginners, even with many ex wrestlers. My problem is I only have a top game and no guard game whatsoever, I have very limited technical knowledge and almost never get any submissions, and my cardio is horrendous.

My cardio is getting better but I can still barely hang on when fighting more experienced people. Even after a few months of doing circuit routines and sprints my cardio is still very slowly progressing.

The #1 skill in any martial arts is cardio, you can't do much at all with out it

Last edited by Michael Neal : 12-07-2011 at 12:26 PM.
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