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Old 12-04-2011, 02:40 PM   #126
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
In my experience hanmi is often taught with feet wide apart:
.
And some teachers emphasize an a even deeper stance like shown here.

I know one teacher who likes having his feet "close together" in hanmi and just relaxes his knees instead of "going deep".
Does this so called "stance of heaven (and earth)" relate to things thought or taught concerning IS?
Our hamni stance is a natural step forward. This stance is very stable. After contact is made with uke and uke is relaxed through...seeking the hamni stance again enhances balance which enhances the centered feeling or if you like IS.

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Old 12-05-2011, 04:04 PM   #127
HL1978
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Exactly Dave. If it won't offend Ledyard Sensei we can use it as an example. Or any video you have in mind would be fine. I looked at the Ark Sensei videos. Great Kung foo but not very good Aikido for reasons I described earlier.
To be fair, you didnt provide any time codes in post #458 in the Ueshiba's aiki thread. It would be fair to comment on Ark that his power comes from both Japanese sources (mentioned on other threads) and Chinese sources.

http://aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.p...&postcount=458

Quote:
If we look at the Ukazawa Sensei who Hunter provided the link to, when we get to the level of application, you see the problems I said i worried about. While his karate/kung foo look great, and the exercises are fine, the aikido style throws don't look that good to me. There's a tendency to have to sweep or take a long time or use force because the momentum in Uke's body is gone. There is a place where Karate and Aikido overlap. Saotome Sensei shows that side as well. So he does some of the applications shown on these and other videos of Ukazawa Sensei. But the parts that look more like Aikido just don't look very good to me compared to most "modern Aikido," they take too much effort and too long to execute, his movement is not open or free, and don't look like they would be ideal in group attack situations. The Daito-ryu anniversary footage looked better to my eyes.
I think a few people can tell in some of Ark's videos when he kicks in some regular muscle, and when he has it as "pure" in terms of IS strength.

When one of the several IS people on the seminar circut touch you, they can let that power stay in you, or let it pass through you. The results look dramatically different and feel dramatically different. The person who lets it pass through you, which results in dramatic movement of your body, is being a lot more kind to you.

I'm not quite sure where Ark, or anyone else demonstrating IS stuff takes too long or too much effort to effect their opponent. What exactly do you mean by open and free? Are there specific videos and time stamps so that I can better understand your opinion? I'm not out here trying to vigorously defend Ark or the honor of IS, just want to better understand your viewpoint as it helps me to better frame my responses to people in the future.
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:35 PM   #128
Ken McGrew
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Hunter,

I believe there was another video that looked explicitly more like Ark Sensei's take on Aikido with more traditional throws. I don't see it here and am not inclined to dig it up.

When you look at the three videos posted in the link you provide you can see were what he does involves throws and when it does not. In video 2 0:11-0:14 Uke's movement stops and then he has to do quite a bit to get Uke down. 0:21-0:24 he shows nice blending as the kick goes by. Just pointing this out the centrality of blending. 1:20-1:24 again has to resort to tripping Uke. In video 3 0:12-0:13.

It's hard for me to believe you don't know what I mean by open and free movement. Look at Ark Sensei throw and then look at O Sensei.

Now I think Ark Sensei looks great. But his talents don't translate well for the more Aikido like techniques. That's because Aikido is a very large thing. It's not reducible to this in yo ho body conditioned internal strength. I know you think may think it is. But it's not. Just as Ledyard Sensei has stated.

I don't want to name all the teachers and Sempi I've had, Hunter, as they are under no obligation to defend my positions. Let's just say that I have been exposed to high level Chinese and Japanese martial artists from a variety of traditions from day one in my Aikido training. I do understand the sort of displays we are looking at here and that have been described. I know exactly what you mean about uprooting a person or causing internal damage to their organs alternatively. I respect them for what they are. I don't necessarily believe the source of these skills is what they are said to be. That doesn't matter in the end. What matters is that Aikido is something more than these particular skills. It can be done with or without these skills. There are certainly situations when they are more applicable than others.

Aikido is about freedom. It is the most free of all martial arts because it is about refusing to engage with the fight. Freedom requires the biggest possible range of possible responses. Aikido is also about a special training process between Uke and Nage.

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
To be fair, you didnt provide any time codes in post #458 in the Ueshiba's aiki thread. It would be fair to comment on Ark that his power comes from both Japanese sources (mentioned on other threads) and Chinese sources.

http://aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.p...&postcount=458

I think a few people can tell in some of Ark's videos when he kicks in some regular muscle, and when he has it as "pure" in terms of IS strength.

When one of the several IS people on the seminar circut touch you, they can let that power stay in you, or let it pass through you. The results look dramatically different and feel dramatically different. The person who lets it pass through you, which results in dramatic movement of your body, is being a lot more kind to you.

I'm not quite sure where Ark, or anyone else demonstrating IS stuff takes too long or too much effort to effect their opponent. What exactly do you mean by open and free? Are there specific videos and time stamps so that I can better understand your opinion? I'm not out here trying to vigorously defend Ark or the honor of IS, just want to better understand your viewpoint as it helps me to better frame my responses to people in the future.

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 12-05-2011 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 12-05-2011, 09:55 PM   #129
Upyu
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Aikido is about freedom. It is the most free of all martial arts because it is about refusing to engage with the fight.
I dunno, you could say that about almost any martial art. And Ark gives plenty of demos where you don't harm the guy and use the same skill to avoid "conflict."
Same could be said about Taiji exponents uprooting or bouncing a person (that's being nice). Come to think of it, you could say that for most "internal" CMAs, and a number of other MAs as well.
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Old 12-06-2011, 07:49 AM   #130
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Robert John wrote: View Post
I dunno, you could say that about almost any martial art. And Ark gives plenty of demos where you don't harm the guy and use the same skill to avoid "conflict."
Same could be said about Taiji exponents uprooting or bouncing a person (that's being nice). Come to think of it, you could say that for most "internal" CMAs, and a number of other MAs as well.
i thought what Ark's teaching was to build a martial body, i.e. a well internal balance body to do any kind of martial arts. that is the water in the bottle and not the shape of the bottle. is this what IS proponent goal, i.e. focus on the water (possibly passing it ) there is a video on youtube of Saotome sensei uproot and bounced uke; methink, it was one of the Rocky Mt Summer camp video. it's terrible that the taiji folks steal stuffs from us aikido.

as far as heaven and earth stance goes, if you grab the lower hand and try to lift up, you shouldn't be able to. and if you try to pull down the up hand, you shouldn't be able to either, because your body should have the up-n-down energy going in opposite directions. of course IS folks would ask about other directions as well, but for this we just went with the simple first, right? of course, the only other direction we should be interested in would be to the closest pub.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 12-06-2011, 02:40 PM   #131
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
That's because Aikido is a very large thing. It's not reducible to this in yo ho body conditioned internal strength. I know you think may think it is. But it's not.
Shihan McGrew,

In reference to the Ueshiba's Aiki thread (closed), you stated the below quotes and called it "yo ho". I believe you were later corrected and the actual phrase was "in yo ho". With that in mind, please detail out the concept of "in yo ho". This way, readers will understand how you:

1. Never got the phrase right in the first place
and
2. Can categorically dismiss it out of hand so easily
and
3. Understand it so fundamentally well that you know aikido is "not reducible to this in yo ho body conditioned internal strength".

While you are at it, you also stated "My definition of Aiki is Saotome Sensei's definition of Aiki", so please detail out Saotome sensei's definition of aiki so that we can understand it better.

Mark

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote:
When applied to application it needs to be incorporated, that is internal unbalancing, into the things that make up waza. I would argue that the things that are called tricks are essential, that you can't escape them. I would disagree with the idea of yo ho that is described in that I think Ki is part of this.
Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote:
The fact that you feel that you found some evidence for your interpretation does not prove that O Sensei had not expanded on the art in ways that were important and not the result of yo ho. Yo ho may be the secret for the grounding demonstrations that O Sensei did. That doesn't mean that they are the secret for everything else he did.
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Old 12-07-2011, 01:45 PM   #132
Ken McGrew
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Takeda Sokaku defined aiki in the following way:

“ The secret of aiki is to overpower the opponent mentally at a glance and to win without fighting.[22] ”

Tokimune Takeda, speaking on the same subject during an interview, said:

“ Could you explain in a little more detail about the concept of aiki?
Aiki is to pull when you are pushed, and to push when you are pulled. It is the spirit of slowness and speed, of harmonizing your movement with your opponent's ki. Its opposite, kiai, is to push to the limit, while aiki never resists.

The term aiki has been used since ancient times and is not unique to Daito-ryu. The ki in aiki is go no sen, meaning to respond to an attack.

... Daito-ryu is all go no sen—you first evade your opponent's attack and then strike or control him. Likewise, Itto-ryu is primarily go no sen. You attack because an opponent attacks you. This implies not cutting your opponent. This is called katsujinken (life-giving sword). Its opposite is called setsuninken (death-dealing sword).

Aiki is different from the victory of sen sen, and is applied in situations of go no sen, such as when an opponent thrusts at you. Therein lies the essence of katsujinken and setsuninken. You block the attack when an opponent approaches; at his second attack you break his sword and spare his life. This is katsujinken. When an opponent strikes at you and your sword pierces his stomach it is setsuninken. These two concepts are the essence of the sword.[8]

The above taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daitō-ryū_Aiki-jūjutsu
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:03 PM   #133
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Takeda Sokaku defined aiki in the following way:

“ The secret of aiki is to overpower the opponent mentally at a glance and to win without fighting.[22] ”

Tokimune Takeda, speaking on the same subject during an interview, said:

“ Could you explain in a little more detail about the concept of aiki?
Aiki is to pull when you are pushed, and to push when you are pulled. It is the spirit of slowness and speed, of harmonizing your movement with your opponent's ki. Its opposite, kiai, is to push to the limit, while aiki never resists.

The term aiki has been used since ancient times and is not unique to Daito-ryu. The ki in aiki is go no sen, meaning to respond to an attack.

... Daito-ryu is all go no sen—you first evade your opponent's attack and then strike or control him. Likewise, Itto-ryu is primarily go no sen. You attack because an opponent attacks you. This implies not cutting your opponent. This is called katsujinken (life-giving sword). Its opposite is called setsuninken (death-dealing sword).

Aiki is different from the victory of sen sen, and is applied in situations of go no sen, such as when an opponent thrusts at you. Therein lies the essence of katsujinken and setsuninken. You block the attack when an opponent approaches; at his second attack you break his sword and spare his life. This is katsujinken. When an opponent strikes at you and your sword pierces his stomach it is setsuninken. These two concepts are the essence of the sword.[8]

The above taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daitō-ryū_Aiki-jūjutsu
More nonsense. And Mark didn't ask you for a wikepedia article. Since you continually speak for Saotome, and claim his aiki is yours; he asked you to define it for Saotome.
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:05 PM   #134
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

DR has it's own transmission/ inheritance issues...

For a better understanding of the aiki of DR I would recommend Transparent Power AND some hands on time.

Chris Moses
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:21 PM   #135
HL1978
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Takeda Sokaku defined aiki in the following way:

“ The secret of aiki is to overpower the opponent mentally at a glance and to win without fighting.[22] ”

Tokimune Takeda, speaking on the same subject during an interview, said:

“ Could you explain in a little more detail about the concept of aiki?
Aiki is to pull when you are pushed, and to push when you are pulled. It is the spirit of slowness and speed, of harmonizing your movement with your opponent's ki. Its opposite, kiai, is to push to the limit, while aiki never resists.

The term aiki has been used since ancient times and is not unique to Daito-ryu. The ki in aiki is go no sen, meaning to respond to an attack.

... Daito-ryu is all go no sen—you first evade your opponent's attack and then strike or control him. Likewise, Itto-ryu is primarily go no sen. You attack because an opponent attacks you. This implies not cutting your opponent. This is called katsujinken (life-giving sword). Its opposite is called setsuninken (death-dealing sword).

Aiki is different from the victory of sen sen, and is applied in situations of go no sen, such as when an opponent thrusts at you. Therein lies the essence of katsujinken and setsuninken. You block the attack when an opponent approaches; at his second attack you break his sword and spare his life. This is katsujinken. When an opponent strikes at you and your sword pierces his stomach it is setsuninken. These two concepts are the essence of the sword.[8]

The above taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daitō-ryū_Aiki-jūjutsu
On pages 72-73, of Tatsuo Kimura's book, at least in the Japanese version, Sagawa talks about aiki a bit differently more so on the physical side of sthings. My japanese ability had been considerably reduced as I havent regularly spoken or read japanese in a few years, but I can attempt a poor translation if you like.

I think the section has been quoted before in the 2005-2007 time frame, it is kind of amusing actually if you read it. As I recall it was fairly explicit and didn't require much interpretation or IS knowledge.

I'm not so sure if I would want to pull if pushed and push if pulled ala judo. As I mentioned in another thread that works fine on non IS people, but if you try it with someone who is working on IS and understands how to use it, it fails.

Last edited by HL1978 : 12-07-2011 at 02:23 PM.
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Old 12-08-2011, 11:32 AM   #136
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
I'm not so sure if I would want to pull if pushed and push if pulled ala judo. As I mentioned in another thread that works fine on non IS people, but if you try it with someone who is working on IS and understands how to use it, it fails.
Yup.
The examples cited only further serve to prove the divorce from Ueshiba's aiki. Ueshiba was known for being able to cancel out that very thing. A reasonable person would ask; Why is it that in so many of the testimonies of his skill, they kept defaulting to discussions of his power.
Not his blending
Not his tenkan
Not even his movement

In an era and culture, which often times produced seasoned men that tested him...they continued to emphasize the very thing these modern adepts are shunning. Ueshiba's power was what impressed them. His own living examples are arguing in our favor for what the founder was in fact focusing on.

Then as now....the debaters do not last one moment in person. This venue is really all they have to cover what turns out to be an inability to effectively move or stop those who are advocating the Ueshiba method. Hence men like Shirata and Mochizuki looking at the post-war efforts and saying. "What you people are doing is not real aikido."
Then as now, people will balk, but they cannot pull it off any credible defense in person. Ueshiba knew what he was doing.

I have not seen read or felt anyone in aikido -arguing from the post war argument side- being able to both aptly describe, demonstrate and discuss the well known concepts of Heaven/earth/man or In yo ho. Examples being; John Stevens inability to translate the concepts that he admitted he had never heard of before, Graham not even knowing In yo ho was Yin yang, and McGrew calling it yo ho repeatedly...and arguing against concepts that were well known and Ueshiba made a lengthy study of them.
No other words need be spoken other than Ueshiba himself, when asked why no one could what he did, said. Simple. You do not understand In yo.
Nothing has changed.
Yo ho indeed.......
No harm no foul, But not knowing what the founder was talking about nor why he constantly brought it up and then demonstrated it...sort of removes these people from the discussion of what he was talking about by default.

I disagree with those who say that IP/aiki is only a part of Aikido. Without it...there is no Aiki...do, only jujutsu.
And that ladies and gentlemen is why you continue to fail when you meet those of us who are discussing, defining, and performing Ueshiba's Aiki.
He didn't invent it, nor did we...he caught on to the foundation of the Asian arts and discussed it continually. It should not be something that devides us, but rather unites us.
I think that is what he was hoping for. Without it; Aikido is not high level, it's just jujutsu, and not even very good jujutsu at that.
Dan
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Old 12-08-2011, 12:38 PM   #137
graham christian
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Yo ho ho, it's christmas!!! I still don't use that term. Yin and yang suffices. Everyone I speak to has heard of it so it suits me fine. Center and one point suits me too. Couldn't find a good English word for Koshi but there again I don't know the japanese for buddhanature or love or kindness or cutting through or center line or pressure point or relax completely or weight underside. Shame on me. Must mean I don't know anything about them.

I wonder why you don't call that stance the tenshin stance or some such rather than between heaven and earth? Mmmm. Not very Japanese.

Regards.G.
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Old 12-08-2011, 01:19 PM   #138
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Dan, you certainly are consistent with your message.

The thought that occurred to me when I was reading your last post was about leading the mind.
You certainly do that. Ueshiba was probably very good at it too, from the sounds of things.
Maruyama Sensei was.

My question for you is why is this all so important to you? Why can't you listen to what other people say?

Why can't Graham have his point of view and Ken his. Why take things so personally? Why not apply your centeredness and good IS skills to letting?

I think that is part of Aikido you will never understand.

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Old 12-08-2011, 01:27 PM   #139
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

I don't speak for Saotome Sensei (please refer to him properly). These posts are petty. I provided the definition given by Takeda Sensei to avoid playing the petty game.

Saotome Sensei's books and videos are widely available. They require careful study. He addresses Aiki in these. Aiki is a complex concept. What Takeda Sensei and his son described as Aiki still fits. Certainly Aiki is also more than this. Saotome Sensei seems to have a broad definition of Aiki. It would be the same concept as that of O Sensei. If anything O Sensei broadened the concept of Aiki rather than narrowed it. Putting it this way isn't quite right, either, however. For O Sensei Aiki was not completely knowable by human beings. We only get glimpses of it. Aikido being a window into another plain of existence. I don't know if Saotome Sensei believes this completely himself. I do know that this is what O Sensei taught Saotome Sensei about the spiritual/metaphysical side of Aiki.

If there can be more than one side to Aiki, then can there be more than one way to demonstrate tenshinage? Can there be more going on in heaven and earth than grounding or internal strength? The jo trick is often brought out as an example of the secret of O Sensei's ability as are other grounding exercises. But is it possible that there is more than one way to avoid having the jo moved or being pushed over? For example, perhaps you can ground out or otherwise neutralize the pushing energy and weight in your own body. But you can also destabilize those pushing as a way to make their pushing have less effect. This is a rather easy way to do the jo trick. It accomplishes the same thing. The jo doesn't move much or move Nage.

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 12-08-2011 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 12-08-2011, 01:55 PM   #140
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Dan, you certainly are consistent with your message.

The thought that occurred to me when I was reading your last post was about leading the mind.
You certainly do that. Ueshiba was probably very good at it too, from the sounds of things.
Maruyama Sensei was.

My question for you is why is this all so important to you? Why can't you listen to what other people say?

Why can't Graham have his point of view and Ken his. Why take things so personally? Why not apply your centeredness and good IS skills to letting?

I think that is part of Aikido you will never understand.
Hello again, Mary
It's not personal. There are things that are not a point of view. There are things trained that have palpable results. These concepts are known and someone having a POV that is opposite of what they mean when they are teaching is not helping anyone is it? Morihei Ueshiba studied them and wrote about them, sometimes almost copying them word for word. It appears by their own admission that he and his students agree that many didn't know what he was talking about.

As for taking things personal? Well, I think the pot is calling the kettle black here. People have gotten wildly personal and attacked those of us discussing this. I am not overly concerned with the name calling and personal attacks; I do take objection to continually being told I...am equal to those who do it. I will contend with those who claim they know what we are talking about and obviously don't, that their movement does not address their claims of understanding. But, here's the thing; that....Mary...is not an insult to their person. I do so without discussing them personally or resorting to name calling as some sort of validation for an ignorance of the material being discussed

Case in point;
Me telling Graham he does not understand a heretofore recognized concept, or the body connections that we are discussing does not equate to him calling me a con man in a thread that was nothing more than a prolonged personal attack; calling me a snake oil salesman, fraud, charlatan etc. .. Now does it? This of course flies in the face of dozens of personal testimonies of well trusted people here to the contrary. Did their witness deter the language used or approved? No. I think it is rather outrageous to discuss taking things to personal level…with me. I could line up many of the most senior people here who have mentioned the level of attacks I have endured are unprecedented on Aikiweb. I have my own opinions on that but I will keep them to myself.
I have a pretty consistent history of telling many here that they missed it. They do not understand what Ueshiba was talking about or doing. I know that is harsh, but it certainly isn't personal. I also have a very consistent record of demonstrating it in person as well. And more's the point helping people to learn. Those people are very grateful and write about it. Mores the point they now....somehow even magically agree after training with several folks teaching this.

Last, believe it or not, contend or no. I am not playing games, leading someone's mind, or trying to score points. For the most part, I am interested in the material and what it can for ....all of us. I hate the contention, and I don't like when it makes people feel bad about themselves. That said, there is a point where the material speaks for itself. As I usually say, not everyone gets an "A" but dog on if I am not doing my level best to help them get there.
That ain't half bad.
Dan
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Old 12-08-2011, 02:12 PM   #141
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
I don't speak for Saotome Sensei (please refer to him properly).
We are not Japanese, nor living in Japan. It is quite acceptable to not call someone else's teacher....teacher. If you like, I will call him Mr. Saotome. But even just the family name is still acceptable from an outsider not his direct student. In the broader view, there is no insult.

Quote:
These posts are petty. I provided the definition given by Takeda Sensei to avoid playing the petty game.
Actually what you avoided was a direct question asked since you repeatedly claimed to speak for you teacher and to know his definitions. What does Takeda have to do with anything?

What you have demonstrated is an ever changing, morphing opinion, that for the most part, was heavily laced with attacking people and their motives. Try and do better.
You have not defined heaven/earth/man, or anything else we do. To date, I don't recognize anything you have written that defines what we do. As many have told you-you have been pretty consistently...wrong. Now, it appears, (on the surface) that instead you are trying to work your way around it, saying there is more to aikido than it.

Pretty tough going as argument.
You don't know what it is.
So how do you define what is more or less than it?
Than what?
Strange reasoning to be sure. Sounds an awful lot like Stevens translating Six direction training as stand in hanmi to me and looking you dead in the eye and saying So what? I didn't know what it meant!
I guess that's okay until you meet budo-ka with a better education.

It is rare to hear ignorance of a known body of work; outlined, taught and written about for generations....defended so strongly. I think once people realize that 2+2 =4 their POV doesn't really matter now does it?
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-08-2011 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 12-08-2011, 02:18 PM   #142
Demetrio Cereijo
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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I wonder why you don't call that stance the tenshin stance or some such rather than between heaven and earth? Mmmm. Not very Japanese.

Regards.G.
I've summoned a shikigami and he says that is because "tenshin stance" would be "true heavenly stance".

But maybe he is kidding me, my in yo ho skills are poor so he is a bit out of control.

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Old 12-08-2011, 02:21 PM   #143
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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I don't speak for Saotome Sensei (please refer to him properly).
Then call him Saotome Shihan.

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Old 12-08-2011, 02:30 PM   #144
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Then call him Saotome Shihan.
Ouch!
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Old 12-08-2011, 02:33 PM   #145
Chris Li
 
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Then call him Saotome Shihan.
Just an interesting note - I noticed that Mitsuteru Ueshiba was very careful to append "Shihan" to Saotome's name, definitely not "Sensei". Of course, because of his position he is extremely careful to speak in the politest manner about these things. Normal Japanese people are much more casual.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-08-2011, 02:45 PM   #146
Marc Abrams
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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I don't speak for Saotome Sensei (please refer to him properly). These posts are petty. I provided the definition given by Takeda Sensei to avoid playing the petty game.

Saotome Sensei's books and videos are widely available. They require careful study. He addresses Aiki in these. Aiki is a complex concept. What Takeda Sensei and his son described as Aiki still fits. Certainly Aiki is also more than this. Saotome Sensei seems to have a broad definition of Aiki. It would be the same concept as that of O Sensei. If anything O Sensei broadened the concept of Aiki rather than narrowed it. Putting it this way isn't quite right, either, however. For O Sensei Aiki was not completely knowable by human beings. We only get glimpses of it. Aikido being a window into another plain of existence. I don't know if Saotome Sensei believes this completely himself. I do know that this is what O Sensei taught Saotome Sensei about the spiritual/metaphysical side of Aiki.

If there can be more than one side to Aiki, then can there be more than one way to demonstrate tenshinage? Can there be more going on in heaven and earth than grounding or internal strength? The jo trick is often brought out as an example of the secret of O Sensei's ability as are other grounding exercises. But is it possible that there is more than one way to avoid having the jo moved or being pushed over? For example, perhaps you can ground out or otherwise neutralize the pushing energy and weight in your own body. But you can also destabilize those pushing as a way to make their pushing have less effect. This is a rather easy way to do the jo trick. It accomplishes the same thing. The jo doesn't move much or move Nage.
Ken:

I, for one, am glad that you are toning down your posts. If you remember back, I positively acknowledged your zeal. The deep, heart-felt desire to learn is critical to one's own progress.

Here are some tips to help you further along these lines:
1) Back off further from the insults "These posts are petty." Most of them were very pointed, factual and had a deeper context than you are able to see just yet.
2) If you don't speak for Saotome Sensei, then you should not also express to others what he thinks, what O'Sensei taught him, etc.. You are better off presenting your opinions of what you think something means. This is particularly the case, since you are not a direct student of Saotome Sensei.
3) If you want to explore topics like Aiki, FIRST, be open to and receiving hands-on with as many people out there who represent what they consider Aiki to be. I, for one, try and keep my mouth shut about defining these things. Despite my hands-on experience with a variety of people, it never ceases to amaze me how little I really know when I discover new layers and deeper understandings of these things that can even negate ideas that I previously held. Never lose a beginner's mind! I always joke with my students that they are always at risk of me telling that what I think now will soon be outdated. You might have shut a lot of doors with people who had a lot to offer you. You will now need to be more patient and humble so that some important doors can be opened again.
4) Respecting your seniors is an important aspect of budo. Your attacks to people who are really your seniors in a variety of areas makes it difficult if not impossible for them to assist you in your learning. Cases in point. Ellis Amdur Sensei was very, very close to Terry Dobson. He knew more about that man that almost anybody on the face of this earth. Telling him that he did not really know what his best friend meant was beyond absurd; Chris Li is a well-known interpreter and well-connected in the world of Aikido. Challenging his interpretations is like challenging the Shaq to a one-on-one game in basketball; Dr. Fred Little has a depth of knowledge about Japanese culture, like Dr. Peter Goldsbury, that far exceeds what we think we might know. This list goes on & on. These people have been of valuable assistance to many of us as we pursue similar journeys.
5) It is more important to discover what we don't know than to stay stuck on what we think that we know. A zeal for learning is about discovering the unknown.

Marc Abrams
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Old 12-08-2011, 02:51 PM   #147
Ken McGrew
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

There are a group of people who are superior martial artists because they know the secret of Aiki in Aikido. They know that they know the secret because they know that they do.

They see O Sensei and they see him demonstrating the secret. In fact, they seem to believe that this secret is the only important thing that he was showing or even the only thing that he was showing. The rest of us can look at O Sensei performing the unmovable feats that they believe are proof of him doing what they are doing and we see him doing different things. I don't see the secret of in yo ho body body conditioning and neutralization. I see a combination of grounding, ki extension, and disrupting Ukes connection to the ground. The fact that I see other explanations is proof that I am an inferior martial artist who doesn't see the secret. Pretty much the entire Aikido world is inferior according to their way of looking at things.

We can't discuss what various teachers themselves said, or what O Sensei said, only what people in the IS camp say they said... even when we have them on film. Failure to conform to this rule results in endless personal attacks. Convenient.

Jun, can we have a non-IS section on Aikiweb?

This discussion has IS in the title so of course IS people are free to post in it. If they don't want any other perspectives discussed then they could start a sort of private discussion with parameters that only IS perspectives are welcome. Fine with me.

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 12-08-2011 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:07 PM   #148
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Leading the mind is not a bad thing. Tohei said "lead the mind and the body will follow." The bodies do seem to go to you for IS.

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Old 12-08-2011, 03:11 PM   #149
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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There are a group of people who are superior martial artists because they know the secret of Aiki in Aikido. They know that they know the secret because they know that they do.
I would say that most of them know because they have been there are done that. Just about all of them have had a wide range of experiences with a common thread - something changed for them after experiencing this stuff in person.

I've trained with Saotome, I've trained with just about every big name in Japan, in all of the major styles and even had some exposure to most of the branches of Daito-ryu. Other people have similar stories - they "know" because they've seen the elephant and know what's out there.

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Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
We can't discuss what various teachers themselves said, or what O Sensei said, only what people in the IS camp say they said... even when we have them on film.
Sure you can discuss it, what I'm saying is that you don't have all the information, so trying to cite incomplete information as absolute authority without considering the alternative is just...mistaken.

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Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Jun, can we have a non-IS section on Aikiweb?
Jun, of course, is free to do as he sees fit - but I think it would be a shame, Aikido without IS is, IMO, no longer Aikido.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-08-2011, 03:20 PM   #150
Marc Abrams
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
There are a group of people who are superior martial artists because they know the secret of Aiki in Aikido. They know that they know the secret because they know that they do.

They see O Sensei and they see him demonstrating the secret. In fact, they seem to believe that this secret is the only important thing that he was showing or even the only thing that he was showing. The rest of us can look at O Sensei performing the unmovable feats that they believe are proof of him doing what they are doing and we see him doing different things. I don't see the secret of in yo ho body body conditioning and neutralization. I see a combination of grounding, ki extension, and disrupting Ukes connection to the ground. The fact that I see other explanations is proof that I am an inferior martial artist who doesn't see the secret. Pretty much the entire Aikido world is inferior according to their way of looking at things.

We can't discuss what various teachers themselves said, or what O Sensei said, only what people in the IS camp say they said... even when we have them on film. Failure to conform to this rule results in endless personal attacks. Convenient.

Jun, can we have a non-IS section on Aikiweb?

This discussion has IS in the title so of course IS people are free to post in it. If they don't want any other perspectives discussed then they could start a sort of private discussion with parameters that only IS perspectives are welcome. Fine with me.
Ken:

I was not personally attacking you and I am sorry that you read it this way. I was simply trying to encourage you to move in a direction that will lead to more fruitful conversations. Frankly speaking, there is nothing wrong with people have superior understandings of things in comparison to ourselves. Your entire rant is distorted. Before you decide for yourself that what you think is correct, EXPERIENCE the other positions first. If somebody does not agree with your position and or provides you with information that contradicts your position, it does not mean that it is a personal attack on you. Separating your ideas and beliefs from your ego is a healthy practice that I would highly recommend that you adopt. You will feel better about expressing your ideas and beliefs while making it easier for you to make corrections and additions to what you hold to be true. YOU are the one who talks about wanting to discuss ideas from various positions and yet you are the one who is most attacking to others who challenge your position. A famous family therapist had rules that he thought all therapists should adhere to. One of the most important to him was to cherish your impotence, because it is your most powerful tool for change. Being inferior is a gift you should learn to cherish.

Marc Abrams
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