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Old 11-27-2011, 02:17 PM   #76
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Violence and Aikido

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
I'd think Graham means spirit more than ki. Ki is neutral and can be used either way. Intent a bit higher than ki, spirit higher still. You can still use soft techniques and blending and what not but ultimately leading to uke's demise. Those soft skills while physically its not violent, comes with violent intentions.

True aikido goes beyond soft skills, but to ingrain a better spirit in oneself. One that doesn't have cause to harm another, this leads to anyone seeking to harm him to ultimately end up fighting themselves. But since Graham likes lone wolf so much, he should look up the chapter on killing Buddha on what I meant about natural violence. He doesn't want to, he just does.
Hi Ahmad.

Just to clear my view or my understanding for you.

For me Ki is spiritual and neutral in as much as it is non-resistive. But neutral cannot contain harmful intent.

So my view on neutral is very different to yours I would say. Thus it doesn't mean 'without' for neutral is active. Thus Ki is active, love is active, kindness is active and all are neutral. Being non-resistive they are infinite and don't 'choose' so to speak and thus the saying you can love your enemy.

Lone wolf I would say is already motivated by bad intention, purpose a decision for revenge throughout. If he looked inside himself, beyond the numb facade he would indeed find he does wan't to and beyond that if he looked further he would find in truth he doesn't.

He's trying to be as a robot but in so doing hiding and destroying his true self, a self that feels betrayed.

Such is my view.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-27-2011, 05:02 PM   #77
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Re: Violence and Aikido

Graham,

With respect then our views are different from each other. For me ki is nothing more than an invisible part of our body just like blood or muscle. Intangible to the eyes but tangible enough that trained people can use it to perform certain things like manipulate physical bodies without physical contact. These can be healing of self or others, causing heat and even light fires, or cutting things like paper from a distant. The examples I cite of course are not trained in Aikido thus most of us will not be familiar with it, but it exists in other schools.

So in effect, as a tool of your self it is neutral and can be used for good or evil intentions.

Man has been given self awareness that allows him the ability to manipulate his own decisions. Decisions that may run contrary to his spirit or true self. To me in any decision that he makes that runs contrary to his true self, it would be a violent one.

When people say selflessness, it is a misnomer. What they mean is egoless and is actually as close as you can get to achieving unity with your true self. A true self will not aspire to violence, but will in the natural cause of things kill animals to survive, kill malefactors that will destroy society, because it is the natural order of things not because he Wants to. He does this without his ego coming into the picture.

Aiki too should have different levels. In the beginning with conscious intention just like any other tool or knowledge, to be applied. And finally when it becomes in grain to your true self, unconsciously applied. You can emanate good ki unconsciously, it doesn't make ki good or bad.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 11-27-2011, 05:06 PM   #78
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Violence and Aikido

Bowing out. Conversation is going into an area that I am not able to discuss with any degree of intelligence or rationality. Appreciate you guys allowing me to share my views.

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Old 11-27-2011, 06:59 PM   #79
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Violence and Aikido

Ahmad and Kevin, thank you. We did indeed share our views. Respect.

Regards.G.
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:14 PM   #80
Ken McGrew
Dojo: Aikido at UAB
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Re: Violence and Aikido

When discussing Aikido and it's benefits for dissipating violence, we could separate the training process itself and the application of Aikido in a self defense situation.

Aikido training, if practices in a non-impositional and cooperative manner, cultivates in a person the willingness to walk away from a fight. We could debate what O Sensei would have thought about violence and mercy. He was a strict vegetarian. There is good reason to believe, meaning loads of information to indicate, that he wanted to change his ways after the war. I think Graham is describing the highest ideal that O Sensei encouraged us to strive towards. So the training process itself dissipates violence in us if we let it.

As to the application to self defense things get tricky. You could strive to avoid any harm to an attacker. If you were unable to defend yourself without harming the attacker you could allow the attacker to harm you. That is an ethical choice. If you aren't willing to sacrifice injury for your ideals, then you could strive to minimize harm to the attacker. Often times an attack my place an attacker in a very dangerous situation. You simply blend at the right time and the attacker flies head first into a object that seriously injures or kills him. In such a situation you can attempt to prevent this by protecting the attacker but it is still possible that you will fail in your efforts. Even a controlling technique like ikyo and pen can result in injuries. Even minor injuries like scrapes can occur if nothing else.

Having said this I am not sure, Graham, if you consider it violence if an attacker hurts himself from the attack.

I certainly agree that Aikido works as an art when you don't try to impose. I also agree that Aikido training can be a way to work the violence, and other things, out of ourselves. I can accept the idea that it is violence when you use Aikido to harm an attacker. Even if that's all you could do to protect yourself, it could still be considered necessary but unfortunate violence. We are talking about ideals. The goal should be that there is no injury to anyone. In practice, however, it may be impossible to protect Uke from his own violence or to defend yourself without resorting to violence. Are you saying something different?
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:47 PM   #81
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Violence and Aikido

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
When discussing Aikido and it's benefits for dissipating violence, we could separate the training process itself and the application of Aikido in a self defense situation.

Aikido training, if practices in a non-impositional and cooperative manner, cultivates in a person the willingness to walk away from a fight. We could debate what O Sensei would have thought about violence and mercy. He was a strict vegetarian. There is good reason to believe, meaning loads of information to indicate, that he wanted to change his ways after the war. I think Graham is describing the highest ideal that O Sensei encouraged us to strive towards. So the training process itself dissipates violence in us if we let it.

As to the application to self defense things get tricky. You could strive to avoid any harm to an attacker. If you were unable to defend yourself without harming the attacker you could allow the attacker to harm you. That is an ethical choice. If you aren't willing to sacrifice injury for your ideals, then you could strive to minimize harm to the attacker. Often times an attack my place an attacker in a very dangerous situation. You simply blend at the right time and the attacker flies head first into a object that seriously injures or kills him. In such a situation you can attempt to prevent this by protecting the attacker but it is still possible that you will fail in your efforts. Even a controlling technique like ikyo and pen can result in injuries. Even minor injuries like scrapes can occur if nothing else.

Having said this I am not sure, Graham, if you consider it violence if an attacker hurts himself from the attack.

I certainly agree that Aikido works as an art when you don't try to impose. I also agree that Aikido training can be a way to work the violence, and other things, out of ourselves. I can accept the idea that it is violence when you use Aikido to harm an attacker. Even if that's all you could do to protect yourself, it could still be considered necessary but unfortunate violence. We are talking about ideals. The goal should be that there is no injury to anyone. In practice, however, it may be impossible to protect Uke from his own violence or to defend yourself without resorting to violence. Are you saying something different?
If an attacker hurts himself whilst you are being non-violent then I would consider he has become the effect of his own violence.

Thus I say Aikido can be taken to the level of protecting the attacker even from himself and hence fulfil the spirit of loving protection.

Now when I do this from the outside it looks like uke couldn't have been attacking properly or is unstable etc. Well, that's how it can look to those who haven't experienced it. However, to keep it in the realms of what most are used to may I refer you to ukemi.

I have had students do ukemi who can't do ukemi. I have had one student who is quite stiff and questioned the use of ukemi taken off of his feet and spun in a perfect verticle circle and end up back on his feet in exactly the same position from kaitenage. No foreward motion at all.

The point I was demonstrating was that the nage can create and execute the ukemi for the uke regardless of if the uke wants to do it or not. Thus when Ueshiba did projections I would say he was creating the ukemi and the uke had no choice but to end up doing one and thus it was Ueshiba protecting the attacker. He could have just thrown them into the wall but that wouldn't be harmonious now would it and also it wouldn't protect them.

These are ideals which fit with the theory and to a large extent I already know can be put into effect.

So saying that in practice it may be impossible to so do I would disagree because to me nothing is impossible. There is only can I do it yet and am I progressing more and more towards that goal. That's all.

Meanwhile if someone brings in the usual 'yeah but what if' scenario then for me it's merely their own fear talking.

Whatever happens I do Aikido to the best of my ability and that's all.

Regards.G.
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Old 12-06-2011, 03:08 PM   #82
valjean
Dojo: Wexford Aiki
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Re: Violence and Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
i've always wondered about the Healing Sword. What does that concept mean? How does a sword heal?
Not sure if this is what Graham meant, but isn't a surgical scalpel literally a "healing sword?"
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Old 12-06-2011, 03:24 PM   #83
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Violence and Aikido

yes, I suppose a scalpel could be considered a healing sword! Thanks for the example. Ahh..but there in is the paradox! the Scalpel must still cut or injure in order to heal!

It doesn't look at the wound and say "I am not going to touch you...in fact I am going to avoid you, and because of this, you will heal and repair".

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Old 12-07-2011, 06:20 AM   #84
genin
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Re: Violence and Aikido

You could heat the tip of the sword and use that to cauterize an open wound--instantly sealing, and technically, healing the wound.
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Old 12-07-2011, 09:14 AM   #85
TimB99
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Re: Violence and Aikido

And thus the wait is on for aiki genetherapy

G'day to y'all!

Tim Bergman
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