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Old 12-02-2011, 10:25 PM   #101
kewms
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
You constantly try. You dont try only when you're stumped.

If you don't shift your weight you die. It's that simple. How about having the courage to post one video of your amazing secret skills at use in defense against realistic attacks? By you I mean Harden or anyone who allegedly has the secret.
Yes, you're right, I do try to help people who are actually trying to understand these concepts. But you're only looking for ammunition. Why should I give you any?

I don't claim to have any particular secrets. If you want to see what kind of training I'm doing, you're welcome to come to any of our seminars. I realize that Seattle is a long way, though, so I'd also encourage you to introduce yourself to Ledyard Sensei at Winter Camp. I'm sure he'd be happy to demonstrate these ideas in person.

Katherine
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Old 12-02-2011, 11:17 PM   #102
Ken McGrew
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Like I said. Lots of talk. But not the courage to post one video.

I'm not looking for ammunition. I'm trying to unravel the mystery of your secret from the sacred clues that leak out. You said your teacher considers it a weakness to have move weight on one foot than another. That's a clue that has lots of consequences when applied to a self defense situation. If you don't move you die. It's a simple truth. Therefore if you don't go against the basic balance posture that your secret seems to require you die.

There are times when your balanced posture would come in handy. Other times not so much. Aiki means to blend.

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 12-02-2011 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 12-03-2011, 12:04 AM   #103
kewms
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

There's plenty of video of my teacher available. You can decide for yourself whether he looks immobile.

A DVD set from Gleason Sensei's recent seminar at Aikido Eastside will be available soon. It was filmed just a few days before the post you responded to, and probably includes his discussion of this very issue.

As for "unraveling the mystery," that's easy. Quit trying to dissect message board posts and get some mat time with the people you're trying to understand.

Katherine
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Old 12-03-2011, 12:59 AM   #104
Ken McGrew
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

So you are saying that Gleason Sensei is demonstrating the secret of in yo ho that Dan teaches?

If so then we can just look at his videos and cut out the middle man. Do all his videos represent this secret or just some?
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Old 12-03-2011, 01:35 AM   #105
kewms
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
So you are saying that Gleason Sensei is demonstrating the secret of in yo ho that Dan teaches?
No.

I am saying that this particular seminar included discussion of weight distribution, the advantages of being center-weighted, and mobility from that stance. I have not yet seen the video, but I assume that it will also contain this material. That was the question you raised, and that is the *only* issue I was addressing in my post.

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 12-03-2011 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 12-03-2011, 02:57 AM   #106
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Dear Ken,

I started this thread, asking a specific question:
Quote:
Does this so called "stance of heaven (and earth)" relate to things thought or taught concerning IS?
To show what I mean, I posted a specific video:
Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
I rose this question because this kamae is emphasized by the teacher of my teacher. He (often) is waiting for the attack this way. And he (often) uses this kamae when throwing.
So first aspect is to learn more aobut this stance, this kamae in itself.

I rose this question because I was taught aikido to be an "internal" martial art from the beginning of my practice some 18 years ago. I come from a completely different background and don' thave any connection with anyone oft the people using IS/IP who post here on aikiweb. (Which I regret deeply. I hope very much to have the oportunity to join a seminar with dan when he is back in Europe.) We used the term "internal" years before I ever heard of aikiweb. And we did visualisation practice or tanden practices long before I even knew that this isn't taught in every dojo.
So the second aspect of my question is to learn more about their specific understanding of this kamae.

And I got some very detailed and interesting answers which I appreciate very much!
And which show me clearly that I still have to learn a lot ... I just touched the surface.

So if you could give some hints about this specific kamae and it's context to inner training of the body or inner aspects of moving, I would be thankful.

If you just want to make clear that my question is dumb, I would also appreciate if you would tell me why.

But - if you just want to follow your personal interest and discuss the sence or nonsence of internal work - which colour it may have - and your personal conflicts of opinion with some specific people, I'd like you to not do this in this thread!
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Old 12-03-2011, 07:29 AM   #107
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Aren't there a bunch of videos on Gleason floating around on youtube already?

G'day to y'all!

Tim Bergman
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Old 12-03-2011, 07:52 AM   #108
Marc Abrams
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Videos can only provide just so much information. I would take Katherine's suggestion and add to it. I would suggest that Ken have himself video taped while George Ledyard, or Josh Drachman, or Bill Gleason demonstrates what Ken seems to defensive to be able to explore. I'm sure that Ken can find at least one of those seniors at the winter camp. The video tape can clearly indicate whether or not these seniors ended up being killed . Since Ken is a man who demands empirical proof, I would think that he would jump at this opportunity.

Marc Abrams
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Old 12-03-2011, 08:06 AM   #109
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Aren't there a bunch of videos on Ledyard floating around on youtube already as well?

G'day to y'all!

Tim Bergman
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Old 12-03-2011, 08:25 AM   #110
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Aren't there a bunch of videos on Ledyard floating around on youtube already as well?
Sure. Here's an interesting one, though I'm not sure if it directly relates to this topic: http://www.youtube.com/user/gledyard#p/u/4/abr1NuopOcY
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:32 AM   #111
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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So you are saying that Gleason Sensei is demonstrating the secret of in yo ho that Dan teaches?

If so then we can just look at his videos and cut out the middle man. Do all his videos represent this secret or just some?
It's very hard to see what you're looking for on video unless you already know. Here's an interesting passage from Yukiyoshi Sagawa (who was actually in the room when Ueshiba was introduced to Takeda):

Quote:
「私の合気はそとからいくらみても分からない。内部の動きで相手の力を抜いてしまい、形にはあらわれないからね、今では体中のどこをもたれても敵の力を抜いてしまう。もと は簡単な原理から出発しているのでが誰も気づかない。それに気づいたかどうかは合気あげをみればわかる。

"However closely you watch my Aiki from the outside you will not understand. That's because I remove the power from my opponent through internal movements that do not show in the outer form. Now I am able to remove the enemy's power no matter where on my body I am grabbed. The source of this begins from a simple principle, but nobody understands. You can see whether somebody understands by watching their Aiki-age.
Best,

Chris

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Old 12-03-2011, 10:13 AM   #112
Ken McGrew
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Here's where the other side starts to look disingenuous. These forums are full of these people analyzing videos in great detail, including those of O Sensei, but when it comes to videos of themselves or those they immolate they claim that there's no point as it can't be seen.

Humor us. Post one video of Harden doing his magic. There have been numerous posts and also private emails to me in which people say when you have Harden's gift things like getting off line, blending, Etc. don't matter. I want to see Harden do all the claimed things against multiple knife attacks. But I'll settle for one video of the exercises he teaches. Videos can be analyzed.

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 12-03-2011 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 12-03-2011, 10:24 AM   #113
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

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Sure. Here's an interesting one, though I'm not sure if it directly relates to this topic: http://www.youtube.com/user/gledyard#p/u/4/abr1NuopOcY
I'm not sure this is on topic. But what do you see in the video related to in yo ho or anything else that you are trying to draw attention to? This is an example with narrative that can be analyzed closely regarding both Uke and Nage.
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:08 AM   #114
Chris Li
 
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Here's where the other side starts to look disingenuous. These forums are full of these people analyzing videos in great detail, including those of O Sensei, but when it comes to videos of themselves or those they immolate they claim that there's no point as it can't be seen.

Humor us. Post one video of Harden doing his magic. There have been numerous posts and also private emails to me in which people say when you have Harden's gift things like getting off line, blending, Etc. don't matter. I want to see Harden do all the claimed things against multiple knife attacks. But I'll settle for one video of the exercises he teaches. Videos can be analyzed.
Quote:
It's very hard to see what you're looking for on video unless you already know.
It's no different from anything else. I'm fairly educated, understand basic mechanic and physics, but I have no idea what's what when I open the hood of my car. A couple of days walking through it with a mechanic and I should be fine. In that case a video would probably work, but when you're dealing with physical skills it's difficult to open up the body on video the way you would an engine - therefore, IHTBF.

If we could learn this stuff from video then everybody would be better, right? There's plenty of video of Ueshiba around - there's even plenty of videos put out by Saotome (I'm actually in one of them briefly).

In my experience, those kind of short video clips cause more problems than they solve with the peanut gallery. I imagine that's why many people (not just Dan) refuse to allow video to be publicly distributed. Hiroshi Ikeda does the same thing - he only gives certain video to people who have already done the training with him.

And once again - your description of Dan's "magic" is so far off base it's not even in the same ballpark. If you're genuinely interested then get to a workshop.

Best,

Chris

Last edited by Chris Li : 12-03-2011 at 11:11 AM.

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Old 12-03-2011, 11:23 AM   #115
Ken McGrew
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Again, people in your circle use videos when it's convenient.

If Dan is doing what O Sensei did (A), and what O Sensei did can be discussed by people in your circle with the use of videos (B), then what Dan is doing can be observed in the videos just as easily as what O Sensei is doing can be ( = C).

At any rate, if it can't be seen and discussing it is useless, why does your circle try to dominate every discussion on Aiki web? People can't even keep you out when the thread says no IS stuff. It starts to look less like discussion and more like advertisement.

If you study O Sensei's videos carefully, and I have studied them in slow motion carefully, the most common characteristic that you should recognize is that he was constantly moving. Next you should recognize the variety of responses he showed that fit the situation. Third you should note that he stressed blending and no touch throws as the highest level of the art.


Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
It's no different from anything else. I'm fairly educated, understand basic mechanic and physics, but I have no idea what's what when I open the hood of my car. A couple of days walking through it with a mechanic and I should be fine. In that case a video would probably work, but when you're dealing with physical skills it's difficult to open up the body on video the way you would an engine - therefore, IHTBF.

If we could learn this stuff from video then everybody would be better, right? There's plenty of video of Ueshiba around - there's even plenty of videos put out by Saotome (I'm actually in one of them briefly).

In my experience, those kind of short video clips cause more problems than they solve with the peanut gallery. I imagine that's why many people (not just Dan) refuse to allow video to be publicly distributed. Hiroshi Ikeda does the same thing - he only gives certain video to people who have already done the training with him.

And once again - your description of Dan's "magic" is so far off base it's not even in the same ballpark. If you're genuinely interested then get to a workshop.

Best,

Chris

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 12-03-2011 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:34 AM   #116
Chris Li
 
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Again, people in your circle use videos when it's convenient.

If Dan is doing what O Sensei did (A), and what O Sensei did can be discussed by people in your circle with the use of videos (B), then what Dan is doing can be observed in the videos just as easily as what O Sensei is doing can be ( = C).

At any rate, if it can't be seen and discussing it is useless, why does your circle try to dominate every discussion on Aiki web? People can't even keep you out when the thread says no IS stuff. It starts to look less like discussion and more like advertisement.

If you study O Sensei's videos carefully, and I have studied them in slow motion carefully, the most common characteristic that you should recognize is that he was constantly moving. Next you should recognize the variety of responses he showed that fit the situation. Third you should note that he stressed blending and no touch throws as the highest level of the art.
1) I don't have a circle.
2) The only person here who says that Dan isn't moving is you.
3) I never said it couldn't be discussed, but you either have to have a certain baseline knowledge or experience for it to make sense, and/or you have to be willing to abandon a few preconceptions and actually discuss rather than challenge.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-03-2011, 12:11 PM   #117
Marc Abrams
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Here's where the other side starts to look disingenuous. These forums are full of these people analyzing videos in great detail, including those of O Sensei, but when it comes to videos of themselves or those they immolate they claim that there's no point as it can't be seen.

Humor us. Post one video of Harden doing his magic. There have been numerous posts and also private emails to me in which people say when you have Harden's gift things like getting off line, blending, Etc. don't matter. I want to see Harden do all the claimed things against multiple knife attacks. But I'll settle for one video of the exercises he teaches. Videos can be analyzed.
Ken,

Why don't you humor us? Why don't we let you test Dan yourself? We will video tape it so that you can analyze it later. You talk about other people being disingenuous, yet you are not offering to test out people like George Ledyard, Josh Drachman, Bill Gleason, who are accessible within your own organization. Heck, you question their integrity as men of budo, they should be push-overs for someone like you. Try working you way through any of them and see where that gets you. Then again, you can always go for the full monty and go straight to Dan.

Bottom line: Before you start questioning the integrity and abilities of some people, maybe you should put some hands on, before flapping the gums too much.

Marc Abrams
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Old 12-03-2011, 01:19 PM   #118
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
I'm not sure this is on topic. But what do you see in the video related to in yo ho or anything else that you are trying to draw attention to? This is an example with narrative that can be analyzed closely regarding both Uke and Nage.
I got he impression you were looking for some videos of aiki demonstrations by people who have been training with Dan.

The video does demonstrate aiki and sensei Ledyard has been training with Dan, so I guessed this demonstration could be related to what Dan teaches. That's why I brought it up (although it does not look like a demonstration of in yo ho particularly to my untrained eye).

Regards,
Dave

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 12-03-2011 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 12-03-2011, 06:22 PM   #119
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I got he impression you were looking for some videos of aiki demonstrations by people who have been training with Dan.

The video does demonstrate aiki and sensei Ledyard has been training with Dan, so I guessed this demonstration could be related to what Dan teaches. That's why I brought it up (although it does not look like a demonstration of in yo ho particularly to my untrained eye).

Regards,
Dave
I want to post a WARNING LABEL The only way to evaluate what Dan Harden or anyone else for that matter, is to get your hands on him personally. Not a long time student, certainly not a guy like myself who has done a few seminars. Not by checking out Gleason Sensei or anyone else. Get on the mat with Dan. Yes, Dan has changed my Aikido for the better. So has Howard Popkin, so has Toby Threadgill, Don Angier, Ushiro Kenji, etc. None of these folks are in any way responsible for how I have chosen to incorporate what they taught me into my Aikido.

Dan Harden is the first guy to admit that he does not do Aikido. He teaches "aiki" and a particular take on "aiki" at that. I also learned a tremendous amount from Endo Sensei. But his "aiki" is very different fro what Dan is doing. I am a hodge podge of influences and quite unapologetic about it. But don't try to make me representative of someone else's Aikido.

I know that every body wants to take the easy road and get a video and decide whether he's got the goods without taking any risks, without leaving the comfort of your own home... Well, unlike myself, Dan has not allowed folks to video him and you can't just go up on YouTube and download a clip and make a snap judgement. In the absence of direct information people start too go second and third hand sources... that's ridiculous. I had some tell me he thought Dan was full of it because he trained with someone who had worked with Dan and the guy was a jerk... that's crazy thinking.

Gleason Sensei and I are both Aikido teachers. We are not doing exactly what Dan is doing. Dan has, however been immensely helpful in helping both of us move towards where we wanted to be in our Aikido. But do not look to us for information about what Dan is doing. Go train with Dan... What you get out of that experience and what you do with it all may be totally different from what we have done.

On the other hand, if you want to check out some different ideas about Aikido technique, at least different than what has been the prevailing paradigm, then sure, come train with me or Bill Gleason or whomever. Then you will be able to converse knowledgeably about what we do. That still won't tell you what Dan is doing.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 12-03-2011, 08:10 PM   #120
Ken McGrew
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Given the things that were said about Saotome Sensei I can't imagine how any of his students would associate with the people who are making them or aligned with those are. I certainly won't.

But nice effort to divert with personal attacks.

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Ken,

Why don't you humor us? Why don't we let you test Dan yourself? We will video tape it so that you can analyze it later. You talk about other people being disingenuous, yet you are not offering to test out people like George Ledyard, Josh Drachman, Bill Gleason, who are accessible within your own organization. Heck, you question their integrity as men of budo, they should be push-overs for someone like you. Try working you way through any of them and see where that gets you. Then again, you can always go for the full monty and go straight to Dan.

Bottom line: Before you start questioning the integrity and abilities of some people, maybe you should put some hands on, before flapping the gums too much.

Marc Abrams
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Old 12-03-2011, 08:13 PM   #121
Ken McGrew
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I got he impression you were looking for some videos of aiki demonstrations by people who have been training with Dan.

The video does demonstrate aiki and sensei Ledyard has been training with Dan, so I guessed this demonstration could be related to what Dan teaches. That's why I brought it up (although it does not look like a demonstration of in yo ho particularly to my untrained eye).

Regards,
Dave
Exactly Dave. If it won't offend Ledyard Sensei we can use it as an example. Or any video you have in mind would be fine. I looked at the Ark Sensei videos. Great Kung foo but not very good Aikido for reasons I described earlier.
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Old 12-03-2011, 08:26 PM   #122
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Given the things that were said about Saotome Sensei I can't imagine how any of his students would associate with the people who are making them or aligned with those are. I certainly won't.

But nice effort to divert with personal attacks.
Ken:

Why don't you ask George Ledyard, Josh Drachman, Bill Gleason, Rob Liberti, etc. about why they do what they do. YOU are the one who is making personal attacks at others from the convenience of your keyboard. If you want to question their integrity and loyalty to their teacher, then feel free to sit down with Ikeda Sensei and Saotome Sensei with them and voice your concerns. Once again, get away from your keyboard and do so in person and enjoy the results of your endeavors.

When I had serious questions about who Dan Harden was and what he did, I had the personal integrity to not fall back on some cheap excuse about who I would associate with without even meeting the person in-person; I went out and met him. YOU seem to be the one who needs to get away from your keyboard and get up-close and personal with your comments, concerns, questions, etc. about what you think that you know. If you think that my response is an attack, then you are simply out of your league. I know full well that Jun would ban me permanently for really letting my words fly. Then again, I don't have a problem meeting the people who my words fly at either. You want to talk about integrity in budo then step away from your keyboard and step up to the plate. Maybe you will actually learn something that could benefit you, like the thread topic for example.

Marc Abrams
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:22 PM   #123
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Why don't you ask George Ledyard, Josh Drachman, Bill Gleason, Rob Liberti, etc. about why they do what they do.
let it go Marc. go read the book from Takuan Soho.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 12-04-2011, 07:59 AM   #124
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
<snip>

Yes, Dan has changed my Aikido for the better. So has Howard Popkin, so has Toby Threadgill, Don Angier, Ushiro Kenji, etc. None of these folks are in any way responsible for how I have chosen to incorporate what they taught me into my Aikido.

<snip>

Gleason Sensei and I are both Aikido teachers. We are not doing exactly what Dan is doing. Dan has, however been immensely helpful in helping both of us move towards where we wanted to be in our Aikido. But do not look to us for information about what Dan is doing.

<snip>

On the other hand, if you want to check out some different ideas about Aikido technique, at least different than what has been the prevailing paradigm, then sure, come train with me or Bill Gleason or whomever. Then you will be able to converse knowledgeably about what we do. That still won't tell you what Dan is doing.
I picked that video because indeed videos of IS/IP/aiki incorporated in aikido are not abundant on the internet. I apologize for oversimplifying things by only mentioning Dan as a source for what you are incorporating into your aikido while I was aware that your efforts involve many sources. I only mentioned Dan, because sensei McGrew's inquiries seem to focus on Dan's teachings mostly, and because I don't know much about the teachings of others.

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
I looked at the Ark Sensei videos. Great Kung foo but not very good Aikido for reasons I described earlier.
Indeed, aunkai is not aikido. Nor is any of the other IS teachers teaching aikido, like sensei Ledyard explained very clearly. It is up to the students to incorporate it in their aikido.

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 12-04-2011 at 08:10 AM.
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:26 AM   #125
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
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Re: "stance of heaven (and earth)" and IS

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
let it go Marc. go read the book from Takuan Soho.
I hear you Phil! Should I be eating daikons while reading the unfettered mind? Haven't read that one in a long time...

Thanks,

Marc Abrams
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