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Old 11-25-2011, 07:41 AM   #26
SeiserL
 
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

IMHO, its like aiming a weapon, from the moment you acquire the target, you aim through the center and towards a kuzushi point way before the moment of physical contact.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-25-2011, 07:43 AM   #27
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Atemi. Careful attention. Don't be where they think you were. I don't like the word control...I like guide better. I like to let uke find their balance lying down on the mat after they fall.

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Old 11-25-2011, 07:49 AM   #28
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

My comment regarding timing discussion in the context of unbalancing is that I'm working hard to improve it but it is far from decisive elements. I was a big fan of timing years ago. There are also styles aikido who base entirely their techniques only on the right timing.

What I discovered, that when I’m weak, sick, injured, tired, out of shape, very old etc my capacity of producing exact timing diminish drastically. So if the success of unbalancing depends only of right timing, under heavy circumstances I’ll be always helpless. I need my gross motor skills be very well trained to not depend only on those very sophisticated ones.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 11-25-2011, 07:59 AM   #29
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Szczepan,
It would suggest to me that if Uke regains his/her balance Tori has not unbalanced Uke fully in the first place.If Uke is totally unbalanced how does he /she recover?Cheers, Joe.
I don't have time to discuss it in deep right know, will come back later. Only quick overview - if uke is not passive, he can regain his balance even after being totally unbalanced. That happens because nage is always making errors.
With traditional aikido practice we may have impression that every technique is successful -- Uke always helps Nage more or less. But when Uke become very active, suddenly all delusions of grandeur go away and we are faced with painful reality -- our techniques always sucks.

Nagababa

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Old 11-25-2011, 08:13 AM   #30
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
But when Uke become very active, suddenly all delusions of grandeur go away and we are faced with painful reality -- our techniques always sucks.
This is more caused by trying to execute a specific technique where the situation is not really suited rather than 'sucky' technique on its own.
Do not forget Aikido technique is for training/learning purposes. When aite quickly changes intend and/or attack the situation becomes more and more similar to actual fight. You leave the training premisses and have to adopt. Think randori: you hardly/never see yokomen kote gaeshi, shiho nage. Why is that? ...it takes took long given the speed of the attacker. You cannot match your movement with that of aite.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
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Old 11-25-2011, 11:54 AM   #31
Chris Li
 
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I don't have time to discuss it in deep right know, will come back later. Only quick overview - if uke is not passive, he can regain his balance even after being totally unbalanced. That happens because nage is always making errors.
With traditional aikido practice we may have impression that every technique is successful -- Uke always helps Nage more or less. But when Uke become very active, suddenly all delusions of grandeur go away and we are faced with painful reality -- our techniques always sucks.
I think that most people put the cart before the horse - any technique is not going to be useful (or even possible) unless you can stand on the stable change point. I was working out with Sam Chin when he said "You don't know where your center is - don't Aikido people talk a lot about the center?". I said "Yes, they talk a lot about the center.".

Sam, FWIW, had no problem taking anybody's balance - while maintaining his own just fine.

Anyway, the basic characteristic of the change point is that it always changes - and training to address that needs to happen before you can even think about applying a technique.

Best,

Chris

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Old 11-25-2011, 12:15 PM   #32
Mario Tobias
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
My comment regarding timing discussion in the context of unbalancing is that I'm working hard to improve it but it is far from decisive elements. I was a big fan of timing years ago. There are also styles aikido who base entirely their techniques only on the right timing.

What I discovered, that when I'm weak, sick, injured, tired, out of shape, very old etc my capacity of producing exact timing diminish drastically. So if the success of unbalancing depends only of right timing, under heavy circumstances I'll be always helpless. I need my gross motor skills be very well trained to not depend only on those very sophisticated ones.
that is why probably ikkyo is the most important and most difficult technique in aikido because it relies purely on timing. You can only make it work if the timing is perfect.
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Old 11-25-2011, 04:26 PM   #33
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
Quote:
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:

My comment regarding timing discussion in the context of unbalancing is that I'm working hard to improve it but it is far from decisive elements. I was a big fan of timing years ago. There are also styles aikido who base entirely their techniques only on the right timing.

What I discovered, that when I'm weak, sick, injured, tired, out of shape, very old etc my capacity of producing exact timing diminish drastically. So if the success of unbalancing depends only of right timing, under heavy circumstances I'll be always helpless. I need my gross motor skills be very well trained to not depend only on those very sophisticated ones.
that is why probably ikkyo is the most important and most difficult technique in aikido because it relies purely on timing. You can only make it work if the timing is perfect.
As a lowly kyu ranked aikido-ka I would offer that I can handle any Shihan I have met...well...actually anyone I have met in Aikido.
This is because I do NOT use timing at all. I use aiki. When the connection happens, at any point, they are controlled through aiki. I would suggest people learn more about the connections Ueshiba himself talked about that are his aikido.
Then learn about aiki.
I have found that aiki is a very good way to practice aiki-do. Most teachers I meet and do Aikido with, are quite taken at the idea of using aiki in aiki-do and other combatives.
Dan

Ueshiba forum next?
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Old 11-27-2011, 07:33 PM   #34
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
As a lowly kyu ranked aikido-ka I would offer that I can handle any Shihan I have met...well...actually anyone I have met in Aikido.
This is because I do NOT use timing at all. I use aiki. When the connection happens, at any point, they are controlled through aiki. I would suggest people learn more about the connections Ueshiba himself talked about that are his aikido.
Then learn about aiki.
I have found that aiki is a very good way to practice aiki-do. Most teachers I meet and do Aikido with, are quite taken at the idea of using aiki in aiki-do and other combatives.
Dan

Ueshiba forum next?
May be you didn't read my first post - please refrain in this topic from IS\IP discussion.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 11-27-2011, 07:59 PM   #35
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
May be you didn't read my first post - please refrain in this topic from IS\IP discussion.
Okay. But without it virtually nothing else is.....aikido. No matter how hard you try to convince yourself it is.
Without IP/IS call it what you will...your just doing jujutsu. Hopefully, it's something decent.
Dan
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Old 11-28-2011, 02:27 AM   #36
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
... methods, how to take a balance of attacker in the moment of the contact.
Well, as far as I learned it, taking the balance is not an issue of timing or atemi or combine ones own movement with that of the attacker. But I learned that creating kuzushi is a matter of using what is called " atari" at us. And creating atari allmost seems to be a synonym of "making aiki".
In practice this means to have a contact somewhere between the bodies of tori and aite. Often it's hands or arms (relaxed, no grabbing, hands are open). But it is possible with every part of the body. This contact/atari effects the structure of aites body, takes his balance and make him collapse. (This is different from what some teacher do, creating contact from center to center. Even if the center/tanden is central also in this work.)
Learning to do this needs "special" excercises, not identical with the waza of aikido.

Aikido waza are one possible application of "making aiki", providing structures to use aiki in a certain way. But they themself don't teach aiki. They use it. This to me seems an important difference to other teachings of aikido a experience in some dojo.

This is - in very insufficient and a bit "helpless" words - what I learn. And I am still a beginner of this way of doing aikido.

Quote:
... IP/IS extremists are not welcome here.
There is no IP/IS in the way it is meant and discussed here on aikiweb taught in our aikido. But the more you try to understand and to do it, the more you got to go and explore into yourself, your own body. What we do is clearly different from what is often discussed here. But it kind of points in the same direction: Getting aikido as a internal martial art. Which it often is not.

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 11-28-2011 at 02:29 AM.
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:11 AM   #37
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
My comment regarding timing discussion in the context of unbalancing is that I'm working hard to improve it but it is far from decisive elements. I was a big fan of timing years ago. There are also styles aikido who base entirely their techniques only on the right timing.

What I discovered, that when I'm weak, sick, injured, tired, out of shape, very old etc my capacity of producing exact timing diminish drastically. So if the success of unbalancing depends only of right timing, under heavy circumstances I'll be always helpless. I need my gross motor skills be very well trained to not depend only on those very sophisticated ones.
I have a big issue with timing from a realistic standpoint. One of the problems I have with TMAs in general is they are typcially practiced from a postion of prior knowledge and parity. That is, both uke and nage have equal balance and knowledge and begin the "fight" with one trying to off balance the other. The issue with this is that timing becomes a huge focus.

In reality, when dealing with Hand 2 Hand situations, someone is at a disadvantage. That is, someone has structure and the other person does not. So, if you are trying to get balance or kuzushi then it means that you don't have structure and the other person does.

So, the issue for me is a two part problem: "how do you gain back your structure when you don't have it" and Second, "then how do you take his".

Timing cannot play a big part in this equation because it is very tight and it really becomes about structure. So, first, I must gain integrity in myself, then I can worry about taking his structure.

There are alot of different mechanics that go into it, but simply there are two body crosses and a head. The lower cross at the hips and the upper cross at the shoulders, and then we have the head on the spine and were the head goes, the body must follow. Working in various planes and positions to break his spinal alignment is key. You can do this through Atemi as well.

I won't really get into the mechanics and techniques as it is much too complicated of a conversation to go into to try and discuss over the internet.

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Old 11-28-2011, 08:38 AM   #38
Mark Freeman
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

Timing cannot play a big part in this equation because it is very tight and it really becomes about structure. So, first, I must gain integrity in myself, then I can worry about taking his structure.
Hi Kevin

I bolded what I think is the key phrase in you post, whether you call it 'integrity', 'mind body co-ordination', or 'aiki', if this is not in place then taking someone elses structure is going to be a matter of strength, where their balance is, a bit of technique and a bit of luck, all dependant on their skill level.

Quote:
There are alot of different mechanics that go into it, but simply there are two body crosses and a head. The lower cross at the hips and the upper cross at the shoulders, and then we have the head on the spine and were the head goes, the body must follow. Working in various planes and positions to break his spinal alignment is key. You can do this through Atemi as well.
I would add, where the mind goes, the body must follow. I fully agree that the physical structure is incredibly important, but it is the mind that that leads, If I control uke's mind on contact (or preferably before), his balance can be broken before he even knows it.

Quote:
I won't really get into the mechanics and techniques as it is much too complicated of a conversation to go into to try and discuss over the internet.
Ah, a wise man

regards,

Mark

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Old 11-28-2011, 08:54 AM   #39
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
that is why probably ikkyo is the most important and most difficult technique in aikido because it relies purely on timing. You can only make it work if the timing is perfect.
Hi Mario,

I'm not sure I can agree with the above statement, on any level. Why is it the most important? why is it the most difficult? Why does it rely purely on timing?

It is difficult for us all to comprehend aikido and as such, we can discuss it endlessly here on this site. Personally I like ikkyo, I find it really easy, of course timing is important, depending on the dynamics of the attack, but purely? surely not, there is so much more that has to be in place for the timing to be effective (distance, balance, structure, relaxation, mind, intent etc)

I don't see any of the aikido techniques/exercises as having a hierarchy of importance, they are all useful tools for practicing the principles of aikido, which I see as the raison d'etre of aikido.

I am not saying that you are wrong, as I would be interested in why you say what you say.

regards

Mark

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Old 11-28-2011, 10:39 AM   #40
tarik
 
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
that is why probably ikkyo is the most important and most difficult technique in aikido because it relies purely on timing. You can only make it work if the timing is perfect.
"Ikkyo" can be done with any timing, sen no sen, go no sen, or sen sen no sen. Timing is merely a way of describing when, in the duration of uke's attack, tori is applying "ikkyo". The only correctness in using timing is when you are looking for a specific variation of "ikkyo" that looks a specific way in relation to a specific attack.

Best,

Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:49 AM   #41
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I don't have time to discuss it in deep right know, will come back later. Only quick overview - if uke is not passive, he can regain his balance even after being totally unbalanced. That happens because nage is always making errors.
An uke (passive or not) can regain his balance because it's a totally natural thing to attempt to do. It has nothing to do with tori's errors, except in that tori should be able to prevent it through their connection. Passivity is a separate, tangentially related topic, IME, than uke's ability to recover their balance and posture.

Quote:
With traditional aikido practice we may have impression that every technique is successful -- Uke always helps Nage more or less. But when Uke become very active, suddenly all delusions of grandeur go away and we are faced with painful reality -- our techniques always sucks.
In my mind, uke should be recovering naturally as it is the process of their recovery that offers tori the opportunity to effect a technique, using uke's natural recovery process. Unfortunately, our uke's are too often primed and trained to make programmed ukemi instead of a programmed recovery, with ukemi being something that just happens if tori is correctly connected and in the way of a natural recovery.

Best,

Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 11-28-2011, 01:50 PM   #42
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This is because I do NOT use timing at all. I use aiki. When the connection happens, at any point, they are controlled through aiki. I would suggest people learn more about the connections Ueshiba himself talked about that are his aikido. Then learn about aiki.

I have found that aiki is a very good way to practice aiki-do. Most teachers I meet and do Aikido with, are quite taken at the idea of using aiki in aiki-do and other combative s.
Dan
I agree with Dan.

Having said that...isn't the imbalance what happens as you actively complete whatever action you are taking.....don't you destabilize first? When you imbalance a body immediate signals are sent to self-correct alignment. When you destabilize without providing other signals, such as to strong a grip, that tell the uke's sub-conscience mind that something bad is about to happen then the completing action happens without any foreknowledge. You can destabilize in in number of ways, such as lifting their center, double weighting them on one side, breaking the parallels in their body, weighting them on the edges of their feet, on their toes or continuing the natural curves in their attacks...to the point of imbalance.......once there you complete your actions and they are gone. The set up can be done without aiki, but you should have it for the completing....makes things easier.....
Gary
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:05 PM   #43
Ken McGrew
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
This would be the best solution, however for most of us, mortals, unreachable with serious, difficult attack (it means also correct distans, not zombi attacking from 10 feet away).
Timespace is so very small, that human brain can't handle it normally.
I think this assumption is the problem. O Sensei, for example, insisted on attacks coming from at least three steps away. His thinking, reportedly, was why let an attacker get closer than that. If someone comes in slower you can back away to maintain proper distance. At any rate, as someone closes the distance to attack they are vulnerable to a kick from Nage. That's why they have to close the distance quickly and if they are smart from a side angle. So the close in short attacks that I think you are worried about only happen when someone sucker punches you or else you are going toe to toe in order to fight them... which you should not be doing if you want to do Aikido as that's not what Aikido is good for. Ideally you want Uke to unbalance himself from the attack. There are ways to encourage this. Once off balance don't let Uke regain his or her balance. Almost all strikes will unbalance Uke at least slightly. Remember, if Uke wants to strike you she will have to come to you. Continue to move to a safe place, like the blind spot slightly behind, and Uke will have to continue to move if she wants to try to hit you. You don't have to throw Uke in one short move. You have infinite options.

The sucker punch short strike is difficult to deal with but there are ways, nonetheless, to avoid being struck, lead, and blend Uke off balance even with such a strike. It's not hypothetical. I was taught to deal with these strikes by many Sensei's over many years and continue to train in this manner with more advanced students. Body positing, timing, leaving, joining, these are always relevant and useful. If you are tempted by this difficult situation to stop the attack and then try to move or unbalance Uke, then the usual problems with not leading Uke off balance present themselves... Uke is more likely to change and escalate the attacks, Uke may be bigger/stronger and difficult to move, and Uke may have a knife in the other hand that he stabs you with. This is why failing to get off the line, however good you may be at unbalancing Uke (by whatever means), is incredibly dangerous. Once Uke is able to stop moving himself from the initial attack it becomes very easy to change. He can cut you even as he falls.

Don't give up and assume that it can't be done because you are struggling with it now. You see the vulnerabilities and therefore are able to improve. It is possible that there are things in Uke or Nage that you could correct. But it may also be that you are training correctly and simply need to stick with it longer.

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 11-28-2011 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:59 PM   #44
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Well, as far as I learned it, taking the balance is not an issue of timing or atemi or combine ones own movement with that of the attacker. But I learned that creating kuzushi is a matter of using what is called " atari" at us. And creating atari allmost seems to be a synonym of "making aiki".
In practice this means to have a contact somewhere between the bodies of tori and aite. Often it's hands or arms (relaxed, no grabbing, hands are open). But it is possible with every part of the body. This contact/atari effects the structure of aites body, takes his balance and make him collapse. (This is different from what some teacher do, creating contact from center to center. Even if the center/tanden is central also in this work.)
Learning to do this needs "special" excercises, not identical with the waza of aikido.

Aikido waza are one possible application of "making aiki", providing structures to use aiki in a certain way. But they themself don't teach aiki. They use it. This to me seems an important difference to other teachings of aikido a experience in some dojo.

This is - in very insufficient and a bit "helpless" words - what I learn. And I am still a beginner of this way of doing aikido.

There is no IP/IS in the way it is meant and discussed here on aikiweb taught in our aikido. But the more you try to understand and to do it, the more you got to go and explore into yourself, your own body. What we do is clearly different from what is often discussed here. But it kind of points in the same direction: Getting aikido as a internal martial art. Which it often is not.
When you mentioned atari I was curious and googled it. Now I understand from where you are coming from. In your approach uke is dressed and has to play particular role in the technique. In such conditions taking balance is a children play. And it allows you to do very sophisticated research.
However my opinion is that this approach is an illusion and dead end.

Nagababa

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Old 11-28-2011, 08:06 PM   #45
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I have a big issue with timing from a realistic standpoint. One of the problems I have with TMAs in general is they are typcially practiced from a postion of prior knowledge and parity. That is, both uke and nage have equal balance and knowledge and begin the "fight" with one trying to off balance the other. The issue with this is that timing becomes a huge focus.

In reality, when dealing with Hand 2 Hand situations, someone is at a disadvantage. That is, someone has structure and the other person does not. So, if you are trying to get balance or kuzushi then it means that you don't have structure and the other person does.

So, the issue for me is a two part problem: "how do you gain back your structure when you don't have it" and Second, "then how do you take his".

.
I don't understand what do you mean by 'having structure' or 'not having structure'. I find it very weird wording. Universally understood word in aikido is rather 'position' 'posture' or 'alignment' of the body. If this what you mean, so I disagree completely. In Hand 2 Hand situation both ppl can have correct alignment. It is easy to see i.e. in boxing.

Nagababa

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Old 11-28-2011, 08:13 PM   #46
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
An uke (passive or not) can regain his balance because it's a totally natural thing to attempt to do.
Best,
I disagree. It is easy to experience by yourself. Practice unbalancing with first time beginner, and put him on the tatami. Nobody will regain 'naturally' his balance. They are collapsing and crashing on the mat.

In fact there is no universal definition of 'doing natural movement'. So it is useless to use it here.

Nagababa

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Old 11-28-2011, 08:23 PM   #47
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

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Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
I think this assumption is the problem. O Sensei, for example, insisted on attacks coming from at least three steps away. His thinking, reportedly, was why let an attacker get closer than that. If someone comes in slower you can back away to maintain proper distance. At any rate, as someone closes the distance to attack they are vulnerable to a kick from Nage. That's why they have to close the distance quickly and if they are smart from a side angle. So the close in short attacks that I think you are worried about only happen when someone sucker punches you or else you are going toe to toe in order to fight them... which you should not be doing if you want to do Aikido as that's not what Aikido is good for. Ideally you want Uke to unbalance himself from the attack. There are ways to encourage this. Once off balance don't let Uke regain his or her balance. Almost all strikes will unbalance Uke at least slightly. Remember, if Uke wants to strike you she will have to come to you. Continue to move to a safe place, like the blind spot slightly behind, and Uke will have to continue to move if she wants to try to hit you. You don't have to throw Uke in one short move. You have infinite options.

The sucker punch short strike is difficult to deal with but there are ways, nonetheless, to avoid being struck, lead, and blend Uke off balance even with such a strike. It's not hypothetical. I was taught to deal with these strikes by many Sensei's over many years and continue to train in this manner with more advanced students. Body positing, timing, leaving, joining, these are always relevant and useful. If you are tempted by this difficult situation to stop the attack and then try to move or unbalance Uke, then the usual problems with not leading Uke off balance present themselves... Uke is more likely to change and escalate the attacks, Uke may be bigger/stronger and difficult to move, and Uke may have a knife in the other hand that he stabs you with. This is why failing to get off the line, however good you may be at unbalancing Uke (by whatever means), is incredibly dangerous. Once Uke is able to stop moving himself from the initial attack it becomes very easy to change. He can cut you even as he falls.

Don't give up and assume that it can't be done because you are struggling with it now. You see the vulnerabilities and therefore are able to improve. It is possible that there are things in Uke or Nage that you could correct. But it may also be that you are training correctly and simply need to stick with it longer.
Good post Ken.
I also saw old video of O sensei and it is true that his ukes are attacking from very far. May be for demo purpose only, who knows.

Quote:
If someone comes in slower you can back away to maintain proper distance. At any rate, as someone closes the distance to attack they are vulnerable to a kick from Nage.
You can't go back forever. And you can't limit your techniques only to kicking - we are not doing kickboxing LOL
Quote:
That's why they have to close the distance quickly and if they are smart from a side angle.
Yes, such attack I'm interested to talk about unbalancing. Most experiences attackers do it that way. How will you structure a training to get your students familiar and what kind of training solution you can see?

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Old 11-29-2011, 12:15 AM   #48
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I don't understand what do you mean by 'having structure' or 'not having structure'. I find it very weird wording. Universally understood word in aikido is rather 'position' 'posture' or 'alignment' of the body. If this what you mean, so I disagree completely. In Hand 2 Hand situation both ppl can have correct alignment. It is easy to see i.e. in boxing.
Structure, or integrity....posture or alignment can work too I suppose, although, you can have structure or integrity and NOT have "posture" or alignment". The semantics of those two words I think don't really capture the concept as you can be odd positions.

Sure you can reach a situation in which both people have integrity and are simply "trading blows" in most H2H situations though it is typically short lived with one person getting the advantage over the other.

Of course it is easy to see in boxing...you have a ref that breaks up the fight and re-establishes the parity in the situation once it is lost by one of the fighters! Actually this is a VERY good example of what I am talking about and is really the big difference as to why MMA is vastly different (for example) than boxing. In MMA the fight is continued after structure is lost and allowed to continue until one of the opponents is no longer able to fight back, the fight stalls to a degree of bordom, or the situation becomes too dangerous in the eyes of the ref and a winner is declared.

Of course we can practice this in Aikido as well and I am sure most do to some degree. Kaeshi waza or reversals is how we do this. Uke attacks and give up structure/integrity and then works to regain it. It can involve timing, as timing is always present in any situation, however, I think timing is a minor element as to me timing implies that I am "waiting" to find a gap in nage's technique and exploit it. So to me timing is EXTERNAL to YOU and depends on nage. What is more primary is what is going on INSIDE of you and what you do with your OWN body to regain your integrity and reverse the situation. You will, at least in theory, cross through a postion where both uke and nage have reached parity, in most cases I believe it is a brief point, however sometimes it is not and it manifest as a "struggle". This is the point that most of us concentrate on reducing or avoiding as we want to be on the side of "winning" which means simply that you have broken the other guy's structure/integrity.

So when we get in that "struggle" we need something that is going to turn the tables and disrupts his "system" allowing you to gain control. and that is the essence of what we are talking about I believe is at that point in time where you need to break his structure. It can be atemi, a weapon...it can involve timing, a distraction, or you can disrupt his feedback processes through your own body, which involves various methods of reducing tension, proprioception or "shifting" etc.

Specifically, this is what will in reality, I believe, give us a distinct advantage over our opponent when all else is equal (or not equal). "all else" meaning speed, timing, weight, strength, and technical skills...things like that.

Hope this helps clarify my perspective on things!

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Old 11-29-2011, 12:52 AM   #49
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

To make a few comments on Ken McGrew's post:

"
Quote:
I think this assumption is the problem. O Sensei, for example, insisted on attacks coming from at least three steps away. His thinking, reportedly, was why let an attacker get closer than that.
Correct, why would you "let" a person get any closer than this? In fact if I am in that much control of the situation I will not "let" him get even that close. The irony of the situation from a empty hand situation is that I am having to use my body to defend myself, then I am not "letting" him do anything, I do not have a choice in this situation and must deal with it and at whatever distance he is at. Rule of 21 implies that he has closed the distance, if he is 3 steps, then he is 1 step, and then no steps. We would like to think we have that much control of the situation, however in reality we don't if we are fighting. That is the whole issue I have with parity. We assume it and assume we have knowledge and theoretical control over something that in realit we probably do not.

So IMO, we need to set up our "problem sets" in which we have lost control of the situation and we don't have control at 3 steps. Simply put we are either already winning or we are losing. It is one or the other, unless it is a sport like boxing, we don't have parity. That is why they have a ref in boxing...if two boxers could maintain parity....you'd have no need for a ref!

So, your first paragraph assumes alot in the situation, IMO, that is you have that much control and knowledge. This paradigm strongly favors "timing" as a factor of success and IMO and experiences is why most martial methodlogies fail in the real world. timing is a poor strategy to rely on.

Sucker punches: it is only a sucker punch if he suprises you and punches you, otherwise it is not a sucker punch! sucker punches by definition and situation are the product of the element of suprise. That is, he has the jump on you, has used this as a tactic to achieve some degree of suprise and overwhelm you in an attempt to dominate you. How you deal with it is you either quickly establish your structure/integrity, or you don't. If he connects and knocks you out...well game over, if he doesn't...well then what do you do to turn the fight back in your favor? Timing doesn't work, ducking might by you a second, but what then.....what is your structure like? how do you follow up and close his OODA loop?

Knife: they suck, if he has one and he has closed distance and is in charge, you are going to get stabbed and stabbed probably over and over. Unfortunately, you cannot really gain control of the knife until you have disrupted his OODA process and his structure/integrity before attempting to control the knife. sure you can block and you might even get a hand on his arm to slow down the attacks, but the fact will still remain until you can go through the steps of fixing your integrity then disrupting his, you are really not going to turn the tables. So, the quicker you can do this, the better off you will be. the fact that he has a knife doesn't really change the process, it does add a degree of difficulty and of course it has upped the stakes dramatically, and yes it sucks, but you still have to go through the same process.

Getting off the line: I don't really like this paradigm as it assumes a degree of control that you may not have. In theory, yes you need to get off the line of attack, and there are probably some semantics in this statement, but I think for most we think of getting off the line as a particular movement of body position and control...the paradigm assumes too much I think for most. How do you get off the line if he is on your back? how do you get off the line if he is in the mount, how do you get off the line if he is clinching you up against the wall and stabbing you? again, in theory, yes, you want to change the angle of your defense to place his posture at a position in which he cannot effectively attack you, however, to me, we need to look at much more in the situation than an external manifestation of physical movement of "getting off the line". This IMO is why we need to consider what is going on inside ourselves, how to I quickly and intuitively move to regain my structure, then affect his and gain the advantage to control him again?

". If someone comes in slower you can back away to maintain proper distance. "

My years of experience in teaching CQB have proven this to be a fallacy. You cannot back up and maintain proper distance and be successful. Sure, you may delay the attack for a brief moment. It goes back to OODA. If you are back pedaling, then you are not in control of the fight and he is, so in order to gain control, you will eventually have to do something to disrupt his process which will involve entering his structure some how. Aikido randori also demonstrates this concept very well. Rule of 21 is all about this as well and is another way of explaining the concept. I have found it better to quickly Observe/Orient and then Decide/ACT...this translates in most cases in entering very quickly with good structure/integrity and disrupt his process. You do this by moving forward and establishing control.

Back pedaling is equal to the concept of "bargining" that is, I am trying to "by time" and delay the inevitable. Our natural instinct is to do this, especially when we are presented with a danger we have not processed. I equate this to putting your hand on a hot stove accidently, our instincts are to pull away and in that case it works, however in a fight, it typically does not, so IMO and experiences it will usually end up bad for us and a better instinct is to program ourselves to do something more "proactive" or different.

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Old 11-29-2011, 01:06 AM   #50
Chris Li
 
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Re: Controlling balance of attacker

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

So IMO, we need to set up our "problem sets" in which we have lost control of the situation and we don't have control at 3 steps. Simply put we are either already winning or we are losing. It is one or the other, unless it is a sport like boxing, we don't have parity. That is why they have a ref in boxing...if two boxers could maintain parity....you'd have no need for a ref!
Reminds me of when I was in Karate, years ago. I asked the instructor what would happen if we end up on the ground - the answer was "don't end up on the ground". I get the point - keep the situation where it's favorable to you - unfortunately things don't usually work out that well for me .

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Chris

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