Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-24-2011, 02:49 PM   #1
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,145
Offline
Controlling balance of attacker

In this topic I'd like to discuss the methods, how to take a balance of attacker in the moment of the contact. Also, he may occasionally recover his balance during the technique -- what we can use to unbalance him again?

IP/IS extremists are not welcome here.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2011, 03:07 PM   #2
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 813
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

'IP/IS extremists are not welcome here.' lol... Isn't everyone here one or the other in this past year? What a resurgence I would like to add.

Back to topic, I'd like to use two main methods.

One. To shift center vertically and thereby controlling maai from a vertical space instead of the horizontal plane.

Two. To take over his space using an overt or extended kamae (not atemi in a strictest sense) as he comes intruding into your space.

Both ways can be applied for irimi or tenkan. But are shaped differently. And when I do lose control and they recover from kuzushi, which usually happens when you either stop or try to change movement yourself, then it's back to awase again before using 1 typically.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2011, 03:21 PM   #3
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 994
Online
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

How about taking balance before contact is made? Which is accomplished by moving the target after he has committed himself.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2011, 04:06 PM   #4
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,145
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
How about taking balance before contact is made? Which is accomplished by moving the target after he has committed himself.

Katherine
This would be the best solution, however for most of us, mortals, unreachable with serious, difficult attack (it means also correct distans, not zombi attacking from 10 feet away).
Timespace is so very small, that human brain can't handle it normally.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2011, 04:20 PM   #5
SteveTrinkle
Dojo: Aikido Kenkyukai International
Location: Ambler, Pennsylvania
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 232
United_States
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
.....

IP/IS extremists are not welcome here.
That seems a bit extreme... How about IP/IS moderates?

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2011, 09:14 PM   #6
Lyle Laizure
 
Lyle Laizure's Avatar
Dojo: Hinode Dojo LLC
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 560
United_States
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Nothing takes balance like atemi.

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2011, 09:37 PM   #7
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,145
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
'IP/IS extremists are not welcome here.' lol... Isn't everyone here one or the other in this past year? What a resurgence I would like to add.

Back to topic, I'd like to use two main methods.

One. To shift center vertically and thereby controlling maai from a vertical space instead of the horizontal plane.

Two. To take over his space using an overt or extended kamae (not atemi in a strictest sense) as he comes intruding into your space.

Both ways can be applied for irimi or tenkan. But are shaped differently. And when I do lose control and they recover from kuzushi, which usually happens when you either stop or try to change movement yourself, then it's back to awase again before using 1 typically.
Nice.
1.Are you talking here about shifting his center or your center? Could you also explain more why you use only vertical in this case? Don't you see here a danger to ground him instead of unbalancing?

2.I don't really understand it, care to explain more?

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2011, 09:44 PM   #8
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,145
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
Nothing takes balance like atemi.
I'm usually careful with this tool to unbalance attacker. What will you use to deliver atemi?

If you are talking here about hands, the thing is, he may know boxing better than me and will use it as an opportunity to counter.

If you are talking here about atemi with any part of nage body - it becomes very interesting, I'd like to know more how you practice it.

This approach also require regular specialized atemi training on moving targets..

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2011, 09:45 PM   #9
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,145
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Stephen Trinkle wrote: View Post
That seems a bit extreme... How about IP/IS moderates?
Stephen, you know what I mean...

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2011, 10:02 PM   #10
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Firstly from that view consider how you would unbalance anything, be it a person, a cup, a table, whatever. I'm being serious, consider it.

Then add in the factor of it takes you realigning your position to do so and movement. If the person regains balance and you get stuck then these two basics are the starting point of study. You need to move and realign basically.

With that seen as simple as it is clearly then you can see the need to learn where to move and why.

Then you discover the whys of circular motion etc. Step by step learning. No magic.

Every point of person regained balance and stability equals point you get stuck or clash no? Well at those points motion has stopped, alignment is out.

So how to take anothers balance is all about those two factors really in essence. The rest are add ons which lead to making it even more refined.

My two cents.
G..
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2011, 11:04 PM   #11
danielajames
 
danielajames's Avatar
Dojo: Brisbane Aikido Republic
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 295
Australia
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

If the centre of mass moves outside the base of support someone is unbalanced - so simple yet so hard to do. Aiki is a wonderful study of the minimum energy required to do this I think

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
ph 0413 001 844, 1593 Logan Rd, Mt.Gravatt, Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2011, 11:08 PM   #12
Mario Tobias
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 252
Philippines
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

For me IMHO, it is always finding the "circuit" from nage's hara to uke's hara once the engagement has started. I liken connection to flow of electricity except that in this case it is flow of controlling balance. The challenge is how to complete the hara to hara connection.

In every technique imho, you start the "circuit" from nage's hara -> nage's shoulder -> nage's elbow -> nage's wrist -> nage's fingers -> uke's fingers -> uke's elbow -> uke's shoulder -> uke's hara. It's like dominoe effect. One part that doesn't connect in the technique, you will use force to make the technique work.

If you have an "open circuit" (eg nage initially using shoulder/arm power instead of power from center to generate the initial movement) or (eg using nage's shoulder power to directly attack uke's shoulder instead of going through elbow/wrist/fingers first), then the techniques will also be forceful. Similar to the electricity analogy, the connection will be lost and there will be no "flow".

Finding the circuits in the different techniques and coordination work after discovery is the challenge and the fun of practice. BTW, this is just my way of understanding connections to help me visualize all interactions in very simple fashion as we are being taught very abstract things all the time. This would work for all attacks imho.

If uke regains balance during a technique, find another "circuit" again to connect with uke's hara to unbalance him. Isn't the goal of practice controlling your center and uke's center in the first place? The discovery is the fun part.

Last edited by Mario Tobias : 11-24-2011 at 11:18 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2011, 11:40 PM   #13
danielajames
 
danielajames's Avatar
Dojo: Brisbane Aikido Republic
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 295
Australia
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
For me IMHO, it is always finding the "circuit" from nage's hara to uke's hara once the engagement has started. I liken connection to flow of electricity except that in this case it is flow of controlling balance. The challenge is how to complete the hara to hara connection.
I like the circuit idea very much for the transfer of power, its described in the biomechanics world as the 'kinetic chain' and has nice analogies/ relevance for grounding, ground power etc.. It also can be used to highlight how it can be maximised in nage and minimised in uke

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
ph 0413 001 844, 1593 Logan Rd, Mt.Gravatt, Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 01:14 AM   #14
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
In this topic I'd like to discuss the methods, how to take a balance of attacker in the moment of the contact. Also, he may occasionally recover his balance during the technique -- what we can use to unbalance him again?
I always thought this was pretty explicative (irrespective of any judgement about the individual performers)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLB9T...layer_embedded
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 01:38 AM   #15
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
I always thought this was pretty explicative (irrespective of any judgement about the individual performers)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLB9T...layer_embedded
Here's an old picture explanation I once drew relating to the above. It may add further detail

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 02:27 AM   #16
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

I find these drawings useful as they make ideas more explicit. With sen sen no sen, I think that the relevant drawing is the first one (top left corner) but the timing of nage's entry is ahead of uke's expectation.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 02:32 AM   #17
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I find these drawings useful as they make ideas more explicit. With sen sen no sen, I think that the relevant drawing is the first one (top left corner) but the timing of nage's entry is ahead of uke's expectation.
Great. But stuff about timing is kind of peripheral to the actual mechanics of it. Ie: discussions on sen-no-sen, go-no-sen etc can be misleading because they focus on the "when" rather then "how". The how is going to be the more important part, IMO.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 02:48 AM   #18
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

For example, in Iwama style which I practice, all the kihon shomenuchi techniques are performed with the nage/tori initiating the strike. This offcourse shapes the waza to a large extent. I disagree that timing is peripheral to mechanics.

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 03:19 AM   #19
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I disagree that timing is peripheral to mechanics.
Then we disagree The "thing you do" (from an unbalancing him perspective) is the same if you get there first, he does, or you both do. It's not reliant on techniques; those are just nice little exclamation marks at the end.

Look at something like judo's happo-no-kuzushi (or Tomiki's judo taiso, if you prefer). You unbalance him, then do what's relevant. But you still must unbalance him *first* - it's the larger part of it. Then, depending on his reaction, you add your favourite flourish. Or you just push him over.

Actually, that reduces the entire art down to a handful of techniques (3-5), doesn't it? Kinda like "everything is ikkyo" or "it's all just koshi-waza" or "atemi is 90% of aikido". The fun stuff has already happened...so why futz around with 101 techniques?

Last edited by bob_stra : 11-25-2011 at 03:22 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 04:46 AM   #20
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,157
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
In this topic I'd like to discuss the methods, how to take a balance of attacker in the moment of the contact. Also, he may occasionally recover his balance during the technique -- what we can use to unbalance him again?

IP/IS extremists are not welcome here.
Dear Szczepan,
It would suggest to me that if Uke regains his/her balance Tori has not unbalanced Uke fully in the first place.If Uke is totally unbalanced how does he /she recover?Cheers, Joe.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 04:59 AM   #21
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,157
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I'm usually careful with this tool to unbalance attacker. What will you use to deliver atemi?

If you are talking here about hands, the thing is, he may know boxing better than me and will use it as an opportunity to counter.

If you are talking here about atemi with any part of nage body - it becomes very interesting, I'd like to know more how you practice it.

This approach also require regular specialized atemi training on moving targets..
Dear Szczepan,
Atemi applications can be used in various ways. You can kick your uke in the leg /groin area while/ if Uke is engaging in contact.If you apply waza[irimi nage, ikkyo , nikkyo ]atemi can be applied.Shiho nage .Kaiten nage are equally vehicles for potential atemi.Personally I only use atemi [gently ] as a wake up call when my Uke is lax.I think all new students should be made aware of atemi from the outset.Too many people think aikido is flowery and defensive.This is imo a
misunderstanding.From my perspective Tori must take the initiative,not being passive.Like the saying goes 'A good offence is a good defence.'Cheers Joe.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 05:13 AM   #22
Tim Ruijs
 
Tim Ruijs's Avatar
Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 395
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
This would be the best solution, however for most of us, mortals, unreachable with serious, difficult attack (it means also correct distans, not zombi attacking from 10 feet away).
Timespace is so very small, that human brain can't handle it normally.
Uhmmm.... that is why you practise so you do not need to think. Your visual system has been (or should be) trained to properly 'read' the distance. Kimusubi, ma ai, kino nagare all principles need to come together in that exact moment. I always interpret Aikido as to be able to do the right thing at the right time.

When your partner regains balance during a technique something went wrong in your execution (duh). Most of the time you are not 'leading' your partner sufficiently and thus your partner stops.

When you practise chudan tsuki, alternately practise with and without tanto. Distance changes only few centimeters, but you must be able to 'see' this and move accordingly. Practise such that each time there is only but an inch space between fist/tanto and you, with different partners.

Another exercise: have partner attack with bokken (shomen) and slightly move of the center/attack line and enter and put your hand on his/hers.
many, many, many more exist....

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 05:58 AM   #23
Tim Ruijs
 
Tim Ruijs's Avatar
Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 395
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Too many people think aikido is flowery and defensive.This is imo a
misunderstanding.From my perspective Tori must take the initiative,not being passive.Like the saying goes 'A good offence is a good defence.'Cheers Joe.
Agreed. People mistake taking the initiative for offensive action. This is not true. While in Aikido you take the initiative to control the situation, you do not intend to hurt the 'other'. Whereas offensive action has the intend to be the first to hurt the other. This aspect does not always receive proper attention in practise.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 08:02 AM   #24
danielajames
 
danielajames's Avatar
Dojo: Brisbane Aikido Republic
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 295
Australia
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
Great. But stuff about timing is kind of peripheral to the actual mechanics of it. Ie: discussions on sen-no-sen, go-no-sen etc can be misleading because they focus on the "when" rather then "how". The how is going to be the more important part, IMO.
Early or late timing though is going to favour unbalancing uke in a particular way I imagine. Though with static practice the mechanics of the gamut of unbalancing choices can be more easily explored

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
ph 0413 001 844, 1593 Logan Rd, Mt.Gravatt, Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 08:21 AM   #25
Walter Martindale
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
Location: Cambridge, ON
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 661
Canada
Offline
Re: Controlling balance of attacker

Enter, atemi to the occipital area. Just inside of that is area 17 of brain. Processes vision. While busy getting sight back to normal, balance is behind the action.
One suggestion
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dance, Wrist Locks & Sub-Teens Thomas Donelson Teaching 147 09-18-2009 04:40 PM
The Use of Atemi (Striking) in Aikido George S. Ledyard External Aikido Blog Posts 2 08-08-2009 10:09 AM
Elusive Realism Stefan Stenudd Columns 4 09-23-2008 05:18 AM
Is Aikido effective for police? erogers General 136 07-13-2008 08:00 AM
Subliminal gestures willy_lee Techniques 59 05-25-2003 10:04 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:45 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate