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Old 09-06-2011, 07:45 PM   #1
Byron Foster
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Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

During discussions of internal power/internal strength, we have heard the term "fascia" mentioned as an explanation of what was actually happening, but no one really went into depth about it. So we went out onto the internet and put together a few different concepts we found there regarding fascia, holistic body concepts and sports medicine.

Maybe this is all old news and has already been discussed before.

1: Fascia:

Everyone who has eaten tuna sushi knows what fascia tissue is. The fascia are layers of white stringy fibers running along the muscles. Very chewy.

What is most interesting is that the fascia form large networks or structures within the body, some running from the feet all the way to the top of the head.

The major fascia structures are, for our purposes:

Superficial Front Line
Superficial Back Line
Deep Front Line
Spiral Line
Lateral Line
Deep Arm Back Line

Diagrams can be found at the following link.

http://www.structuralwisdom.com/Anat...ain_Lines.html

Every muscle and organ in the body sits in a bag of tissue called fascia (it's the gristle that butchers cut off before they sell the meat). The bags are twisted at the ends just like garbage bags and also contain fibers that penetrate through the muscles to the underlying bones. The twisted ends form tendons, which have a greater tensile strength than the sides of the bags. If you pick up a full garbage bag from the side it tears but the twisted end does not due to the differences in tensile and shear strength.

The fascia contains contractile and elastic stretchable components as well as blood vessels and sensory nerves. The characteristics of the fascia (thickness, contractibility, viscoelasticity, sensory capability etc) are variable and can be affected by physical training or specific exercises. The sensory components are the major end organs for proprioception -- knowing where parts of your body are in space without looking at them. A simple example of this is closing your eyes placing one hand above your head and then touching that hand with the other hand while keeping your eyes closed. You would not be able to carry out that action without the help of fascia and myofascial trains.

The elastic components can be stretched and held in tension. While stretched out, they can assist with the structural integrity of the body. Think of a trampoline or the canvas sail on a yacht or the unbendable arm in Aikido. Also, if they are released from tension suddenly, then the stored elastic energy of the fascia, like a rubber band snapping back, can be accessed and directed.

These fascia springs can hold things together (keep you upright), aid in your balance and posture, and work with your muscles to add power to your movements. They can even recruit organs in the process since the deep frontal line fascial train connects the legs with the back, torso, neck and head muscles as well as the organs of the abdomen and chest. Everyone knows that you can jump higher on a trampoline. The energy still came from you, but the extra lift came from releasing the stored elastic energy in the stretchy parts of the trampoline.

All but one of these fascia structures run through our "center". To put tension (one way is with the feeling of opposite tension on diametrically opposed areas of your body) in them and stretch them around, we can use our waist and stomach muscles. Accessing the stored elastic power and movement of the major fascia groups can be accomplished by Dan Tien turning or moving your spine in and out (ming meng popping) while maintaining structural integrity of the lumbar-lower back spine to avoid injuries and overall body balance (maintain kuzushi).

Visualizing which fascia structure you need in a movement (example, if you decide that it is the Superficial Back Line supporting the load during Kokyu-Dosa), may be useful. Intent and proprioception can play a role.

Interestingly, the lines of tension and force described in some of the Aunkai exercises (and other similar types) seem to follow the major fascia structures.

Most simple "Ki Tricks" can be explained in terms of controlling the fascia structures. For example, by activating the Lateral Line fascia (running from your arm to the back) and the Superficial Back Line, you can perform the unbendable arm trick.

Knowledge of the fascia structures and how they work should improve one's study of movement.

2: Anatomy Trains:

Anatomy trains (or myofascial trains) are lined-up groups of muscle and fascia working together for a more effect end result. An example of how it works would be hanging from a bar by one hand, and the arm muscles, shoulder muscles, back muscles all line up and connect to the pelvis so that the load is not carried just by the arm muscles. Also movement of the arms in spirals in Aikido lines these trains up while arm movement straight back and forth firing the biceps muscle and pulling moves the trains out of alignment.

Check out the links at:

http://www.anatomytrains.com/at/History

Are these myofascial trains real or just a concept?

The below link shows how these chains are connected anatomically. Note: Based on experiments with cadavers, so not for the faint of heart.

http://scottsevinsky.com/pt/referenc...continuity.pdf

This research proves that there are actual physical connections of tissue (that can be measured and described) between muscle groups that were previously considered to be isolated from one another.

These myofascial trains, just like everything else, can be conditioned and strengthened with training. This conditioning requires proper alignment and cannot be done too quickly at first as multiple body parts have to move together in a coordinated fashion. If you practice too quickly at first the body parts will fall out of alignment during the course of the movement. Think of yoga or tai chi and the speed at which they are practiced.

So proper training will physically strengthen the soft tissue connections and improve your coordination and awareness of them (with proprioception). End result, Unified Body. One thing moves, everything moves (Whole Body Force).

3: Myofascia Trains

The myofascia are the very small threads of fascia that surround and penetrate individual muscles. With high resolution ultrasound, these fascia can be studied, and how they respond to different types of training is really fascinating.

The following link has a great article on this.

http://www.somatics.de/FascialFitnessTerraRosa.pdf

Diagram from Terra Rosa e-magazine, Issue no. 7, page 4

In Graphic A, we see the muscle and fascial condition of your average non-training couch potato.

In Graphic B we see the condition in the average weight lifter/body builder. The serial and transverse fascial fibers are thicker relative to the couch potato in Graphic A but the parallel (the ones needed to have several groups of muscles work together) are no different than those in the couch potato.

In Graphic C, the parallel and extra muscle fascial fibers are thickened or developed, but muscle and other fascial fibers are not. This is the condition we see in Yoga practitioners (who are flexible and coordinated, but are not known for having explosive power).

In Graphic D, from loaded stretching, we see that everything is developed except for the transverse fibers.

This is critically important. If the transverse fibers are on, then the muscle feels tense. If there is tension, then your body is not really relaxed and you cannot generate waves of power in one part of your body and transmit it to another.

So with loaded stretching, graphic D shows us that are muscles can be fully activated (can move with power) and be relaxed at the same time. This is the ideal condition for all Budo practice including Aikido.

The myofascia can be trained and conditioned, so over time, the training can increase the activation of these fibers. Someone who lifts weights all the time will probably have a very hard time not being tense while doing budo since that is how his muscles have been conditioned. Someone who only does loaded stretching may have a hard time generating the localized shear muscle power (via transverse fibers) to open a can of tuna in their own kitchen when they are older, but throwing people around on the mats will be a piece of cake.

The type of training (weight lifting, yoga, loaded stretching) actually changes your muscles (well, the myofascia in and around them) and how they function. Knowledge of waza is not enough; your body has to be conditioned at the cellular level to perform high level budo.

Relaxing and generating power is just not about "willing" your body to relax or finding some spiritual place in your mind. It has to be trained into your body over time.

4: Tensegrity

Tensegrity is concept of three dimensional structures being held together with elastic tension. The rigid members of the structure add stiffness and strength, while the elastic structures add a springy strength and distribute the load of any impact over the whole structure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensegrity

The "old" model of the human body was that it was the bones creating the structure and rubbery tendons and cartilage acted like soft cement to hold it together, (brick and mortar model). The "new" tensegrity model is that the soft tissues act like cables holding the bones and the rest of the body together with elastic tension while the bones actually float in space. The more elastic the tissues are, and the higher the amount of tension there is, the stronger the entire structure becomes.

So what does this mean to Budo practioners?

Well, we want to expand our bodies and not have compression in any areas. We will be able to absorb more power and release more power by putting all of our body in elastic tension. A well known example of this in practice is the basic forward roll. We stretch out our bodies and arms to absorb the energy of hitting the mats by stretching the deep back arm myofascial train. We do not fold up into a fetal ball, taking away the stretch and elastic tension from our arms, back and legs. By stretching out our arms and making them feel "springy", the force gets distributed throughout our entire body via Tensegrity.

Of course there are different levels of Tensegrity, depending on your training.

Wrapping it all together (in a collagen bow):

At the end of the day, we have our large fascia structures, such as the Deep Front Line and Superficial Back Line, which with training have become stronger and more elastic. We can control the stretch of these fascia with our posture. We have trained our muscles to work together to form anatomy trains that we can access. The combination of the stretched fascia and the anatomy trains working together create a "whole body" superstructure from Tensegrity. If someone has Tensegrity, then all body parts have elastic tension and no compression; pushing on any area will result in the whole structure absorbing the push and springing back on it (kuzushi on contact). The feeling will be the attacker "loses" at the moment of contact. Of course by changing the tension in different areas of the body, an adept can alternately make their body feel "soft and absorbing" or "hard and springy" at will.

With the loaded stretching, the myofascia have been programmed to have the series and parallel fibers on, but transverse off. When this is combined with anatomy trains, a movement in one part of your body (dan tien, waist), can be efficiently transmitted to the hands or arm without the arms or shoulders tensing or feeling "on". Significant amounts of elastic energy can be stored in muscles that are not really that large, from a body builder's perspective.

All these effects together could be called Ki or Chi.

Loaded Stretching:

So what is loaded stretching? Well, it really seems to be what Akuzawa is teaching with his Aunkai curriculum, it is the Nairiki exercises (at least the few ones that I saw) that TSYR has, and the exercises that Dan Harden is teaching in his workshops. Even the classic breathing exercises in many Aikido warm-ups contain loaded stretching.

Unfortunately, it is easy to perform these exercises incorrectly and not get the full benefits. If you treat them like an aerobics exercise and you are not getting a "loaded stretch" throughout the movement, then you are not going to change your myofascial fibers too much. You will not condition your myofascial trains to work together either. I will step aside and let the experts discuss these exercises in detail, but obviously it has to be deeper than just having the hands and feet in the right position.

When I first saw the Aunkai exercises demonstrated, I was skeptical that they would have much benefit. Now that I have read the articles on how the myofascai work and how anatomy trains can be strengthened, I am now much more open to these types of exercises.

So if there is anyone else out there who had some skepticism about the benefits that these specialized exercises promised, well there now seems to be some scientific evidence that they can work.

There is still an "art" to the martial arts. You still have to put in thousands of hours of blood sweat and tears to get anywhere. Nothing here is a shortcut.

Ki, Ying Yang and those other terms are the terminology that martial artists in the Bronze Age used to describe their high level abilities. It may be useful to modernize our terminology based on science when describing our bodies in a Budo context.

Conclusions:

Modern sports medicine research and concepts can help to explain some of the high level martial abilities of the Elders in the Art.

Specific types of training can change your body at the cellular level and put "spring" in your muscles without them being tense.

Different parts of our body are physically connected with soft tissues that can be strengthened and controlled. Tensegrity unifies all the forces in a head to toe fashion.

Maybe, just maybe, we can incorporate some of the "Fascia Fitness" concepts into our own training and improve both our bodies and our techniques. That would be awesome.

Total Disclaimer: I do not claim to have any special knowledge or abilities in this. I am just summarizing what I found on the internet, with some minor commentary to connect the dots. The transverse myofascial in my shoulders are noticeably active during all of my techniques, there is no measureable tensegrity in my body, I have little conscious control over my fascia structures and they are not very springy and finally my anatomy trains are not well developed at all. I can provide references to back up these claims.

A special thanks to Dr. Aaron Stone for helping to coauthor this article. The disclaimer is all mine though.

Byron Foster
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Old 09-07-2011, 01:16 AM   #2
woudew
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

Hi Byron,

thanks for the good read and all the work you put into it.

Walter
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:19 AM   #3
dps
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

That is an excellent post Byron that goes a long way to understanding the Aiki as relates to the physical body.
.
dps
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Old 09-09-2011, 02:39 AM   #4
DodgingRain
 
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

This has been discussed before, but I think it is a valid component of so called "internal strength", along with other things.

Thanks for taking the time to compile everything so neatly. Nicely done.

So would others agree that this is a part of what we try to develop in internal strength exercises?
Is the theory and principle of developing the whole body fascia chains in the body common to most "internal" styles? with different permutations and variations being developed according to that art's specific goals and techniques?

Is this what taiji, xingyi, or bagua tries to develop with their training methods? Do Japanese training methods develop this aspect of the body as well? Does Aikido have methods to specifically develop these whole body fascia chains in the body? Does Daito ryu have methods to develop this?

Good stuff. I think there are other aspects of "internal strength" that you can develop as well, but this is an interesting component to talk about with the solid information you compiled.
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Old 09-11-2011, 08:48 PM   #5
Byron Foster
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

If you buy this argument about fascia, myofascia and anatomy chains, then it leads into several interesting ideas.

Does function come from form or does form come from function?

At the basic level, or say the level of high school wrestling, the form does come from function. The elbow only moves a certain way, the shoulder provides torque a certain way, and blam, you have a basic arm lock in high school wrestling. Coach shows it, then you can do it. Practice is just getting stronger and faster at it.

At the intermediate level it may be a bit mixed. For instance, I have seen the following scenario play out several times. There is a new student in the Dojo, and he is stiff as a board. For months and months, Sensei gives him a hard time about relaxing the shoulders, especially for Kokyu dosa. Then one day, his shoulders are relaxed during the technique and Sensei says "you are finally listening to me". Then in the change rooms, Sensei congratulates himself for finally getting through to the student.

Was it really just the student not listening and not consciously relaxing the shoulders, or was it that it took months of training to change his body enough (myofascially, and learning to put the load on the fascia structures and not just muscles) so that he could then perform the techniques as he was being taught? Are there unrealistic expectations on how new students are too learn, when underneath, they have to change how their bodies work?

At the higher levels (Master, loaded term I know), then I think that function has come from form. Years of training (form) has changed the function of how their bodies work. Essentially "anything" works. Angles and positions that result in a successful throw for a master just do not work at all even for an intermediate student. When then explain how they launch a student across the room, then really feel that a very simple explanation of body mechanics is all that is required. In their mind it may be just irimi and cut, and that is that. Behind the scenes, there is a tremendous amount of complicated body mechanics happening, but the Master may not be conscious of it.

Can someone whose body has "changed" from training effectively communicate and teach those with untrained "normal" bodies? If they do not see how the training has changed their bodies, then I will say no.

Form from function or function from form?
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Old 09-12-2011, 05:18 AM   #6
dps
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

Quote:
Byron Foster wrote: View Post
Does function come from form or does form come from function?
"Function goes first and anatomy will follow" from Serge Gracovetsky from the following video clip posted by Josh Lerner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-SMU...eature=related

Quote:
Josh Lerner wrote: View Post
For anyone interested in the role of fascia in the transmission of force in the body -

"Serge Gracovetsky - "Is the lumbodorsal fascia necessary ?" -- Part # 1 of 3 of the conference given on October 4th 2007 at the Harvard Medical School as part of the First Fascia Research Congress - Boston MA."

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-SMU...eature=related

Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLNZC...eature=related

Part 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZBjf...eature=related

Enjoy,

Josh
dps
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Old 11-18-2011, 01:18 AM   #7
Terence Phan
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

Thanks for sharing your research.
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Old 11-18-2011, 05:28 AM   #8
Chris Knight
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

excellent post! ties in with my understanding so far... just got to actually get my body to do the same now!!
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Old 11-19-2011, 09:55 PM   #9
hughrbeyer
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

Yes, thanks for posting the vids. I saw them when you first posted them and find them fascinating... and it's nice to know my teachers aren't just blowing smoke :-)
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:08 AM   #10
Mark Mueller
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

Byron,

Excellent article. Gives me plenty to ponder.

Mark
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Old 11-23-2011, 09:36 AM   #11
sorokod
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

The following sites mentioned in the OP are commercial and the content they present should be seen as having a promotional nature

The article at http://scottsevinsky.com/pt/referenc...continuity.pdf does not deal with structural properties but rather with the hypothesis that the
" tension activates a speci?c pattern of receptors, contributing to perception of motor direction"

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Old 11-23-2011, 09:56 AM   #12
DH
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

I think it is almost a waste of time. Beyond identification, there is nothing that knowing the body parts will do to help you. I have more and more body workers showing up at these get togethers. They are no more/no less capable of actually doing this training than anyone else who doesn't have a clue of the nature of the anatomy. And sometimes they have been the worst one in the room. Although it is nice to see the science supporting the Dual spiral argument (that Ueshiba himself embraced) in that the body does spiral ACROSS the body lines and functionally form an "X" across the back. That three axis movement model and hitoemi is far less viable and defies the bodies natural tendencies.

In the end, it's knowing how to train and work the connections, knowing how to manifest and hold intent that is far more important.

Dan
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Old 11-23-2011, 10:16 AM   #13
Keith Larman
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
In the end, it's knowing how to train and work the connections, knowing how to manifest and hold intent that is far more important.

Dan
Hey, Dan...

No doubt about that last part for sure. But in defense of trying to tease out these ideas, attempts to better describe the underlying functionality can give hints on new directions as well as help folk understand that it's not all magic "shooting ki balls" stuff too. I think one of the biggest problems facing these arts are the extremes. The guys who insist it's all just jujutsu, leverage, muscle, etc. Then the other side of the mystical ki flowing aiki-bunny types. We talk, communicate and hopefully transmit knowledge ideally through *both* direct experience and through our language. Having a better vocabulary with which to transmit the information that is more based on what's "really" going on "under the covers" would go a long way to improving the transmission.

You write rather frequently about the misunderstanding of what people like Ueshiba M was *really* saying. That's because we lack that underlying understanding that you believe he was really trying to communicate. A better understanding of that stuff would go a long way to understanding his words. Same is true of this stuff for some I would think. No, it certainly isn't sufficient and it may not be necessary. But it still might be valuable for some to investigate even though others will become fixated on the model rather than actually being able to develop the body itself.

Of course in the end the proof is in the doing. Words don't make much difference then. No doubt about that.

But it can also be nice to have a more coherent and accurate model within which to understand what's going on.

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Old 11-23-2011, 01:19 PM   #14
chillzATL
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Although it is nice to see the science supporting the Dual spiral argument (that Ueshiba himself embraced) in that the body does spiral ACROSS the body lines and functionally form an "X" across the back. That three axis movement model and hitoemi is far less viable and defies the bodies natural tendencies.

In the end, it's knowing how to train and work the connections, knowing how to manifest and hold intent that is far more important.

Dan
I've pointed this out elsewhere, that there is some science to support that cross body connection, but at the same time, the amount of tissue involved in that actual connection seems to be rather small in comparison. It would seem that regardless of how one chooses to move, the same tissues are getting conditioned either way. The sides individually, as there isn't enough of the cross connection to support the body by itself and the spiral connection simply by way of how the body naturally moves and how we use it.
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Old 11-23-2011, 09:15 PM   #15
gregstec
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I've pointed this out elsewhere, that there is some science to support that cross body connection, but at the same time, the amount of tissue involved in that actual connection seems to be rather small in comparison. It would seem that regardless of how one chooses to move, the same tissues are getting conditioned either way. The sides individually, as there isn't enough of the cross connection to support the body by itself and the spiral connection simply by way of how the body naturally moves and how we use it.
In my personal opinion, I like to have a mental picture of what is going on inside the body - it helps with the visualization of the intent to drive the ki that drives the body - it is important to remember we are talking about soft power, and as such, how much tissue is required to support that? It is also important to remember that the cross body fascia is continuously connected from hand to foot and has an impact on all it traverses through - the muscle and bone components in that path are segmented and it is the fascia energized by the ki that brings those segmented parts together as one.

Greg
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Old 11-24-2011, 09:31 AM   #16
DH
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I've pointed this out elsewhere, that there is some science to support that cross body connection, but at the same time, the amount of tissue involved in that actual connection seems to be rather small in comparison. It would seem that regardless of how one chooses to move, the same tissues are getting conditioned either way. The sides individually, as there isn't enough of the cross connection to support the body by itself and the spiral connection simply by way of how the body naturally moves and how we use it.
You would be wrong about that.
I know it has been discussed "elsewhere" along with the incorrect usage of some old drawings. The use of across the body spiral energy is an old concept that predates anatomy trains. At recent seminars with certain ICMA top dogs when asked about whether reeling silk crosses the body?...both said;
"Of course! One went on to define it."
The dual spiral -which involves the front and back and the functional X in back- involves far more tissue than the highlighted trains you are looking at. Of course it also involves all of the major trains as well as the connected use of dantian and the bands across the chest and back as well as Kua. The dantian, kua and waist combine to bring the path from one foot to the opposite hand. You then have the external use of the internal components bridging together. Proponents of anatomy trains have rightly identified that this makes the most practical sense of using the human frame;
You have anchor points at the head and under the feet, and under the Kua to the back that create torsional effects as you twist the frame. These are supported; front/back, side to side and spiraling front/back and joined at key points at kua Dantian and Sternum. HOW...it is used is also thee only way to make sense out of Chen Fake's admonition about double weighting, and Ueshiba's admonition about in /yo and how it resides and is manipulated in the body then used for external expression. To truly cancel out forces applied in free engagement... it is the best model. The three axis methods can and will get you stuck at certain points and by its nature cannot be continuously soft. It must rely on positional change to cover some dimensional flaws.
And FWIW, yes...I am intimately aware that not all agree.

There is no end of debate on the external use of internal connection as well. You are not going to mistake certain coaches for others. Some things are not a case of right and wrong, others are. A better way to look at it is what is foundationally correct may not be externally organized the same way. As Ellis has pointed out and about a dozen other Koryu people as well, you simply cannot use one fella's method...in what they do. And others have made up their own minds after exposure to certain other peoples methods. This is why I advocate that people get out and feel people who claim to know and teach this stuff. It is incumbent on those of us father along the path to look after and look out for others following. Pointing to yourself, is not only deceiving to them, it is self deceit that will stop your own growth. I have several top dogs on my dance card and I am hoping to get thrown on my ass after I exert my best effort- by someone who can not only do, but also explain what he did, not in fighting skill, but in internals.
It hasn't happened in a long time, and that's not good for me. We all need to continue to grow, shape and challenge each other. Iron sharpens iron.
Happy thanksgiving, off to help cook.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-24-2011 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 11-24-2011, 09:40 AM   #17
Keith Larman
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Iron sharpens iron.
Funny, the polisher in me likes to say that iron can sharpen iron, but iron bows to the polisher's stones...

"Oh, martensite, you're think you're so tough... Taste the abrasion of my binsuido!"

Have a great Thanksgiving, all. I'll bet a lot of you might find yourself doing some involuntary breathing exercises later straining against the pants... Yeah, reverse breathing is kinda like that...

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Old 11-24-2011, 10:30 AM   #18
DH
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Funny, the polisher in me likes to say that iron can sharpen iron, but iron bows to the polisher's stones...

"Oh, martensite, you're think you're so tough... Taste the abrasion of my binsuido!"

Have a great Thanksgiving, all. I'll bet a lot of you might find yourself doing some involuntary breathing exercises later straining against the pants... Yeah, reverse breathing is kinda like that...
I love that...
But I beat ya to it.
Iron bows to the forge first!!
And Iron bows to steel
Then you got me...
"Steel bows to the polishers stones."
But...Martensite?Hah...
Vanadium!!!
My steel may bow to your stones...but its gonna cost ya!!...
Have a good one brah!!
Dan
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Old 11-24-2011, 10:56 AM   #19
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,565
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I love that...
But I beat ya to it.
Iron bows to the forge first!!
And Iron bows to steel
Then you got me...
"Steel bows to the polishers stones."
But...Martensite?Hah...
Vanadium!!!
My steel may bow to your stones...but its gonna cost ya!!...
Have a good one brah!!
Dan
Ha, no doubt. Hardest lesson to learn for me when I started polishing Howard Clark's 1086 blades was the damned vanadium carbides in that steel. I'd run an area for a while and then realize that while the blade looked kinda scritchy, not much had been removed. On old steel, a modern Chinese shinken or a 1050 Engnath I should have reshaped at least a bit of the sword. So... Eh? Then I'd notice I'd just dug a freaking divot in my stone with only a few runs. What? The damned blade was eating my stones... I finally realized that I had to adopt a mindset that when I'm polishing I'm also dressing the stone with the blade itself. So it changed how I worked my patterns on the stone. Otherwise I'd either be ruining stones or spending 3 times as much time redressing the damned things instead of only 2 times as much... Grumble...

I remember talking with a friend who is a traditionally trained polisher. We got him a 1086 blade to do foundation for us after he heard me and Ted Tenold grumbling about the things. When it was done he said "Wow. I'm not doing that again.". Ha! It was worth it...

All I can say is thank goodness for chemically cured ceramic stones. Not the easiest things to work with in this way, but they will bite the steel carbides and all...

Have a great holiday from a fellow "get your damned hands dirty" guy...

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Old 11-24-2011, 11:03 AM   #20
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Ha, no doubt. Hardest lesson to learn for me when I started polishing Howard Clark's 1086 blades was the damned vanadium carbides in that steel. I'd run an area for a while and then realize that while the blade looked kinda scritchy, not much had been removed. On old steel, a modern Chinese shinken or a 1050 Engnath I should have reshaped at least a bit of the sword. So... Eh? Then I'd notice I'd just dug a freaking divot in my stone with only a few runs. What? The damned blade was eating my stones... I finally realized that I had to adopt a mindset that when I'm polishing I'm also dressing the stone with the blade itself. So it changed how I worked my patterns on the stone. Otherwise I'd either be ruining stones or spending 3 times as much time redressing the damned things instead of only 2 times as much... Grumble...

I remember talking with a friend who is a traditionally trained polisher. We got him a 1086 blade to do foundation for us after he heard me and Ted Tenold grumbling about the things. When it was done he said "Wow. I'm not doing that again.". Ha! It was worth it...

All I can say is thank goodness for chemically cured ceramic stones. Not the easiest things to work with in this way, but they will bite the steel carbides and all...

Have a great holiday from a fellow "get your damned hands dirty" guy...
Wow, way over my head! - I think I will stick with simpler things like Aiki

gobble, gobble...

Greg
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Old 11-24-2011, 11:08 AM   #21
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The dual spiral -which involves the front and back and the functional X in back- involves far more tissue than the highlighted trains you are looking at. Of course it also involves all of the major trains as well as the connected use of dantian and the bands across the chest and back as well as Kua. The dantian, kua and waist combine to bring the path from one foot to the opposite hand. You then have the external use of the internal components bridging together. Proponents of anatomy trains have rightly identified that this makes the most practical sense of using the human frame;
You have anchor points at the head and under the feet, and under the Kua to the back that create torsional effects as you twist the frame. These are supported; front/back, side to side and spiraling front/back and joined at key points at kua Dantian and Sternum. HOW...it is used is also thee only way to make sense out of Chen Fake's admonition about double weighting, and Ueshiba's admonition about in /yo and how it resides and is manipulated in the body then used for external expression. To truly cancel out forces applied in free engagement... it is the best model.

I have several top dogs on my dance card and I am hoping to get thrown on my ass after I exert my best effort- by someone who can not only do, but also explain what he did, not in fighting skill, but in internals.
It hasn't happened in a long time, and that's not good for me. We all need to continue to grow, shape and challenge each other. Iron sharpens iron.
Happy thanksgiving, off to help cook.
Dan
Thanks to you, Dan. A very interesting description of dantien. And when I read the first comment about the kua, I instantly felt a lot of opening and loosening in my hips and lower back and that whole area.

Hope to see you soon.

Happy Thanksgiving to All.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 11-24-2011, 11:37 AM   #22
Byron Foster
Dojo: Aikikai
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Re: Fascia, Anatomy Trains, and Tensegrity

My "target audience" for this blog was not the people that actually were practicing I.S. and knew what they were doing, but people who were, up until last year, like me and on the fence and not sure what to make of all of this. Many of us have been heard "feeling is believing" before regarding other aspects of training, so just written testimonials can only go so far.

Then us course I went to a workshop and was able to see first hand what was being written was pretty accurate.

That the I.S/Aiki training involves specialized exercises that change the body over time, and how the whole body can be used for movements seemed to me to fit hand-in-glove with this new research into fascia, anatomy trains and myofascia. I thought if people were able to see that there is actual independent science behind these concepts, they would be willing to give the I.S/Aiki program the benefit of the doubt and then find a way to experience it first hand, if they wanted to.

I am an engineer, so I have a hard time switching off the training from my entire adult life of breaking things I do not understand down into component parts that I do understand. Some people intellectualize things and other people just do them. I just wanted to contribute something back.

Obviously there is only limited value in "knowing" the fascia structures and anatomy trains. I can memorize ever physical structure in the human hand, but that will not give me the knowledge to play a piano. Even studying muscles and bones will not improve my Aikido. We still have to put in the 10,000 hours of training.

On the other hand, pretty much ever sport has benefitted in some way from modern sports science. It will be interesting to see what science will have to say about internal martial arts in 20 years.

Oh yes, have Thanksgiving to everyone!
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